A Few Questions With Yoshinori Ono

@Napalm said:

It's funny that he mentions how the fighting game genre was flooded in the nineties, because Capcom is really close to single-handedly flooding it this time.

I wouldn't say that at all. It's certainly not just Capcom, these are all of the fighting games are announced for 2012 alone:

Skullgirls, BlazBlue Continuum Shift Extend, Soulcalibur V, Persona 4: The Ultimate in Mayonaka Arena, Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown, Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and Dead or Alive 5.

GET HYPE.

EDIT:

Reading the rest of the comments plenty have responded to what I quoted. Sorry if it seems like I am just piling on the point that its not just Capcom.

@LiK said:

I respect his work but what a damn troll.

Same. It's hard to know if he lies, unknowingly states a fact that isn't one, etc. He has a tough and very public role. But mad respect for him being public at all. Wish more Japanese developers were.

@ThePhantomnaut: My concerns are that with Capcom's games (Non-fighting) ones they seem to favor the on-disc DLC model. look at Resident Evil 5 for example. Along with Lost Planet 2. Both of which are non-fighting games, so my earlier post was warranted based on Capcom the company as a whole. I simply tailored it around the fighting game since it was so obvious with that post and example. Capcom really needs to step up and give a complete game. Then if they chose to market and or sell DLC, to have a better approach to it. You catch more bees with honey.

Customization sounds cool and all but what are you really gonna customize other them move sets? Which of course tat sounds good in theory but like most games would probably end up with people trying to find the cheapest and most exploitable sets which then lead tons of other people to use that same exact set thus ruining the whole purpose of it to begin with.

But that's retarded......king is a jaguar

@StitchJones:

The gem system is a monstrously bad idea. It's false customization; there will be one or two optimum configs. There's nothing wrong, at all, with the "customization" involved in selecting your character/team.

This game turned into such a monstrous disappointment. Not even the amazingness of fat Megaman (who is seriously great) saves it.

Skullgirls? Yes please.

@StitchJones said:

@ThePhantomnaut: My concerns are that with Capcom's games (Non-fighting) ones they seem to favor the on-disc DLC model. look at Resident Evil 5 for example. Along with Lost Planet 2. Both of which are non-fighting games, so my earlier post was warranted based on Capcom the company as a whole. I simply tailored it around the fighting game since it was so obvious with that post and example. Capcom really needs to step up and give a complete game. Then if they chose to market and or sell DLC, to have a better approach to it. You catch more bees with honey.

A complete fighting game can't really be made in its first stage. With the age of the internet, people can find out things such as game breaking glitches and legitimate yet sometimes overpowered tactics that can be exploited to death. Yes a post-release patch can work but Capcom studios behind the games probably had more ideas of adding more content after release along with making the game more balanced, likely thanks to many different factors such as fan input and more money added to budget thanks to the success of the game to warrant an expansion.

Also the on disc dlc situation, you have to consider that it might be difficult to add after release (for example: the impact of MK DL characters affecting game netcode and patches). Yes you can say the same with Super Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition but along with Yun, Yang, and the horrible balance update that came with it, there was also extra code to make sure the content actually works (the downloadable version of AE included an extra download which is required for people who just want to play online in general, AE or Super) unlike MK where how they implemented the dowloadable characters and required patches as separate content creating a mess. I find this as ultimately a non-issue (especially in fighting games) because if Capcom talked about Jill and Shuma Gorath DLC for Marvel 3 and it wasn't found out it was on the disc, nobody would complain except a very few.

@FLStyle said

@FLStyle said

@Napalm said:

@JazGalaxy said:

Also, making fighting games for the tournament scene is WHY THEY DIED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Yes, tournament fighters want more modes, more isms, more characters and more customization options, but newcomers want a simple fighting game they can easily learn and play. Fighting games got big off of Street Fighter 2. A game with 8 fighters and a few moves per character. If you want to get popular again, go back to that, because any fighting game fan knows that the joy in the genre comes from not only knowing your character and moves, but your opponets character and moves as well. That great EVO video didn't come about becaus ethe guy knew his Chun Li characters' moves, it came about because he knew his opponents KEN moves. That kind of knowledge is hard if not impossible to get when a game has 100 characters with a 100 moves each.

If you want to really break it down to a science, the reason why fighting games sharply dropped in popularity was because it was a very popular trend, and no trend can last forever, and new and different things came along. Not necessarily something that was "better", just something different. It's why music genres rise and fall, why videogame fads and trends do the same.

And honestly, fighting games have never died. SNK Playmore released games on a consistent basis since the nineties, and Street Fighter III: Third Strike being such a strong and well-regarded game, kept the game in the tournaments and in the minds of fighting game enthusiasts. There has always been a tournament scene, ranging from the suburbs of California all the way to Tokyo. Your statement comes from your interest in this genre as a fad - a trend. You don't take it seriously. I'm not stating opinions. I'm stating facts.

I also challenge your comment in regards to how games are built: Street Fighter IV is one of the least complex fighters out there, and fighting game fanatics worldwide praised and lauded at it's accomplishments to strip down the formula while still keeping the basic foundation so pure and strong. It's a game that is built on fundamentals and basics, and not on gimmicks, (even though gimmicks do exist in the game).

Also, saying, "one-hundred characters with one-hundred moves each," is such an ignorant comment. Most characters have a small handful of moves, but thanks to the Street Fighter IV engine, there are still several different ways to approach a character. Your opinions are misguided and misinformed, and you should either seek out more knowledge or stop pretending you know more than you actually do.

I also pretty much agree with everything that @ThePhantomnaut:, my brother who also happens to be into The King Of Fighters XIII. :D

Everything you wrote is a testament to why you speak for only a very tiny group of game players and I'm talking about a much larger group.

you say Street FIghter 4 is one of th eleast complex fighters out there and it was lauded for it's design and incredibly successfull? Hey, remember a little while back when I wrote that success in the fighting game industry will come by simplifying design and going back to Street Fighter 2 style design that made the genre popular to begin with?

My comments aren't misguided, you are just looking at the situation from the elitest perspective of someone "in the scene" as opposed to a gamer who likes to play games. The fighting game market died. YOu can tell it's dead because people weren't making the games anymore and the ones that were were recycling assets that were 10 years old.

I've really come around the Gem system. When I first heard about it, I thought it was going to kill the game for me, but since actually seeing it in action, they really sold me. The time limitations on most of the "better" abilities seems like a good balance. This game might not be a day 1 purchase for me, but it's definitely an ASAP rental.

It seems odd to me that some people think tournament players somehow killed the games. At the time 'fighting games were dead,' I doubt that most people were even aware of the kinds of tournaments going on. And while 'fighting games were dead,' those tournaments were even still happening. I sure as hell didn't know about them. I was playing 3d MK games saying, what do you mean fighting games are dead? Judging by how well those 3d MK games did, many others were probably in the same boat.

It seems to me that fighting games committed suicide, when the other genres kept getting better and better, attracting new players, and the guys making the fighting games couldn't figure out how to make their stagnant genre more appealing.

@Napalm said:

@JazGalaxy: You've just proven my point: you're speaking for the demographic that views these games as a fad. They play them for a few months and then move onto the next "hip" thing. Why should Street Fighter be made even more accessible because you don't want to stick with it for more than a month or two? That is certainly not the games fault. Without the hardcore community, this genre of game probably wouldn't even exist.

I want to add to Napalm's response... The larger group ("a gamer who likes to play games" doesn't really help) should learn how to play a fighting game then. When I read the response, I felt that you are underestimating the capabilities of what a player can learn. It's understandable that the genre should accommodate to everyone but saying that it should have new games to unnecessarily regress is odd. The result can create success in the short run but make a devastatingly negative effect in the long run.

Nice. Though I've been playing Tekken for 15 years, it's nice to see more well-made games making an impact.

@Itwastuesday said:

It seems odd to me that some people think tournament players somehow killed the games. At the time they died, I doubt that most people were even aware of the kinds of tournaments going on. I sure as hell wasn't. I was playing 3d MK games saying, what do you mean fighting games are dead?

Judging by how well those 3d MK games did, I'm guessing that a lot of other people were in the same boat.

This seems to be a subject that many people think they're an expert on, unqualified as they are.

Because the games were being made FOR tournament players. I mean, it's pretty simple really. When I first stepped up to a Street FIghter 2 cabinet, and I remember it clearly, I was 8 years old in the local movie theatre. There were 8 fighters and I played a few quarters worth inside a mob of like 10 dudes around the cabinet. That happened until I found my fighter, Ken. Then I slowly learned each other charactesr moves and strategies. I learned that I I was forcing GUile backwards, he could be charging up for something while evading me and if I could get air slammed by Chun Li if I led off a match by jumping at her. I learned this over the course of, what, a few months? A few dozen matches?

FLash forward 10 or 15 years. An 8 year old kid walks into his local arcade to play SF Alpha 3, the newest fighting game. He's greeted with how many characters? like 30? Okay, he picks one out of the sea of characters. Pick your style. What? What is any of this? Okay, he picks one. Now he has his first fight against an opponent. Now what are the odds that he's going to face that same opponent again any time soon? Learning the roster of opponents is a commitment that's prohibiting to new players. And until he learns his fighter and his opponents fighters, HE'S PROBABLY NOT EVEN HAVING FUN YET.

How many gamers never even touched an SNK game ebcause the whole thing was too complicated? I know hardcore gamers who have been gaming for decades and can't name an SNK fighter outside of Mai, and even that is a stretch.

Complication attracts hardcore gamers like stats attract football nuts and minutia of detail attracts car nuts. That's not good for attracting new players or selling untis to players outside the realm of the hardest of the hardcore.

@Napalm said:

@JazGalaxy: You've just proven my point: you're speaking for the demographic that views these games as a fad. They play them for a few months and then move onto the next "hip" thing. Why should Street Fighter be made even more accessible because you don't want to stick with it for more than a month or two? That is certainly not the games fault. Without the hardcore community, this genre of game probably wouldn't even exist.

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense.

Translated, what you're saying is this:

"You've proven my point right: You're speaking for most people and new gamers. They play these games for a few months and then play other games because they're not obsessed with one genre. Why should street fighter try to get interest new players or sell large numbers of units? Without the small number of people who are willing to overcome a completley arbitrary barrier to entry, the genre probably wouldn't exist at all."

Or... they could, you know, go back to the games that made the genre popular to begin with instead of making games solely for the people who constantly demand more of gameplay elements only they like?

It's like if I were to make a resturaunt that served good food that became popular. THen I found that if I added more salt to my dishes, they become more popular. Then I just kept adding more and more salt until eventually people stopped coming because it was just too much. But a small contingent of peopel kept asking for more salt so I just kept adding more and more and more and more. Should I Just keep adding more salt? Or should I go back to the way my dishes were orginally when I first started to get attention and people could taste other flavors than just salt?

@JazGalaxy said:

@Itwastuesday said:

stuff

stuff in response

Do you think SFxT is a move in the wrong direction? I'm no game designer, but by the logic laid out in this post, this game could be the most convoluted Capcom fighter ever made! It has a crap load of characters and systems out the wazoo. It has so many new variables, that I think it might have even scared a few 'competitive players.'

@JazGalaxy said:

@Itwastuesday said:

It seems odd to me that some people think tournament players somehow killed the games. At the time they died, I doubt that most people were even aware of the kinds of tournaments going on. I sure as hell wasn't. I was playing 3d MK games saying, what do you mean fighting games are dead?

Judging by how well those 3d MK games did, I'm guessing that a lot of other people were in the same boat.

This seems to be a subject that many people think they're an expert on, unqualified as they are.

Because the games were being made FOR tournament players. I mean, it's pretty simple really. When I first stepped up to a Street FIghter 2 cabinet, and I remember it clearly, I was 8 years old in the local movie theatre. There were 8 fighters and I played a few quarters worth inside a mob of like 10 dudes around the cabinet. That happened until I found my fighter, Ken. Then I slowly learned each other charactesr moves and strategies. I learned that I I was forcing GUile backwards, he could be charging up for something while evading me and if I could get air slammed by Chun Li if I led off a match by jumping at her. I learned this over the course of, what, a few months? A few dozen matches?

FLash forward 10 or 15 years. An 8 year old kid walks into his local arcade to play SF Alpha 3, the newest fighting game. He's greeted with how many characters? like 30? Okay, he picks one out of the sea of characters. Pick your style. What? What is any of this? Okay, he picks one. Now he has his first fight against an opponent. Now what are the odds that he's going to face that same opponent again any time soon? Learning the roster of opponents is a commitment that's prohibiting to new players. And until he learns his fighter and his opponents fighters, HE'S PROBABLY NOT EVEN HAVING FUN YET.

How many gamers never even touched an SNK game ebcause the whole thing was too complicated? I know hardcore gamers who have been gaming for decades and can't name an SNK fighter outside of Mai, and even that is a stretch.

Complication attracts hardcore gamers like stats attract football nuts and minutia of detail attracts car nuts. That's not good for attracting new players or selling untis to players outside the realm of the hardest of the hardcore.

If the new player has the love in competing, they will learn everything regardless of "complexity." Instant gratification and fun in serious play never applied in fighting games (or even any other competitive game) unless you are playing something tacky like War Gods. Dedication is what creates the barrier between one who wants to learn and one who doesn't. Hard work doesn't exist anymore.

@Itwastuesday said:

@JazGalaxy said:

@Itwastuesday said:

stuff

stuff in response

Do you think SFxT is a move in the wrong direction? I'm no game designer, but by the logic laid out in this post, this game could be the most convoluted Capcom fighter ever made! It has a crap load of characters and systems out the wazoo. It has so many new variables, that I think it might have even scared a few 'competitive' players.

I absolutely think so.

SF4 was such a smart move because it simplified everything. Mortal Kombat was a success because ti did the same thing. It went back to the characters people know and it dumbed down the moves list to just a few per character. That way new people could jump in and get to know what made fighting games fun in the first place. It's remembering who they are.

Look at Tekken and Soul Blade. I highly doubt those games are going to have the same success as MK or SF4. And why not? Because those characacters aren't as popular? Because they had smaller budgets or less talented developers behind them? I don't think so. I think it has to do with the fact that both those games are still trying to participate in the fighting games arms race that says each game is supposed to have more modes, more characters, more bonuses, more options, more gimmicks, etc.

Make a solid product first, then add the bells and whistles when necessary.

@ThePhantomnaut said:

@JazGalaxy said:

@Itwastuesday said:

It seems odd to me that some people think tournament players somehow killed the games. At the time they died, I doubt that most people were even aware of the kinds of tournaments going on. I sure as hell wasn't. I was playing 3d MK games saying, what do you mean fighting games are dead?

Judging by how well those 3d MK games did, I'm guessing that a lot of other people were in the same boat.

This seems to be a subject that many people think they're an expert on, unqualified as they are.

Because the games were being made FOR tournament players. I mean, it's pretty simple really. When I first stepped up to a Street FIghter 2 cabinet, and I remember it clearly, I was 8 years old in the local movie theatre. There were 8 fighters and I played a few quarters worth inside a mob of like 10 dudes around the cabinet. That happened until I found my fighter, Ken. Then I slowly learned each other charactesr moves and strategies. I learned that I I was forcing GUile backwards, he could be charging up for something while evading me and if I could get air slammed by Chun Li if I led off a match by jumping at her. I learned this over the course of, what, a few months? A few dozen matches?

FLash forward 10 or 15 years. An 8 year old kid walks into his local arcade to play SF Alpha 3, the newest fighting game. He's greeted with how many characters? like 30? Okay, he picks one out of the sea of characters. Pick your style. What? What is any of this? Okay, he picks one. Now he has his first fight against an opponent. Now what are the odds that he's going to face that same opponent again any time soon? Learning the roster of opponents is a commitment that's prohibiting to new players. And until he learns his fighter and his opponents fighters, HE'S PROBABLY NOT EVEN HAVING FUN YET.

How many gamers never even touched an SNK game ebcause the whole thing was too complicated? I know hardcore gamers who have been gaming for decades and can't name an SNK fighter outside of Mai, and even that is a stretch.

Complication attracts hardcore gamers like stats attract football nuts and minutia of detail attracts car nuts. That's not good for attracting new players or selling untis to players outside the realm of the hardest of the hardcore.

If the new player has the love in competing, they will learn everything regardless of "complexity." Instant gratification and fun in serious play never applied in fighting games (or even any other competitive game) unless you are playing something tacky like War Gods. Dedication is what creates the barrier between one who wants to learn and one who doesn't. Hard work doesn't exist anymore.

Except that it's perfectly possible to be new to fighting games and have fun. The problem, from my experience, is that a good chunk of the hardcore fighting game community is terrible at introducing newcomers. These are the sorts of people that label newcomers as scrubs and brush them off as they're trying to get by on what little they've been able to learn. The sorts of people that make no attempt to help new players, unless they're definition of "help" is brutally destroying newcomers and expecting them to learn anything from the way that they were just decimated without explaining the how and why.

These people are terrible, and they are what creates the perception that the hardcore fighting community is an insular cabal. I am by no means saying that they are the majority; there are plenty of great people that go out of their way to help newcomers at least find their footing. But the fact remains that there are some true assholes out there that care little for anyone that don't worship at the altar of Daigo, and those fuckers are vocal.

@JazGalaxy: A little off-topic here, but you may want to wait and see on SoulCalibur V. From what we've seen from people who have the game early, they've consolidated the character move sets so that they aren't loaded down with useless garbage moves (as what tends to happen a little too much in 3d fighters). They've also brought the number of characters down to 23 (which you could argue is still too many). The online features actually seem well thought out as well. Not that I'm saying it will sell as well as SF4, but I think it's shaping up to be a damn fine fighting game.

@ThePhantomnaut said:

@JazGalaxy said:

@Itwastuesday said:

It seems odd to me that some people think tournament players somehow killed the games. At the time they died, I doubt that most people were even aware of the kinds of tournaments going on. I sure as hell wasn't. I was playing 3d MK games saying, what do you mean fighting games are dead?

Judging by how well those 3d MK games did, I'm guessing that a lot of other people were in the same boat.

This seems to be a subject that many people think they're an expert on, unqualified as they are.

Because the games were being made FOR tournament players. I mean, it's pretty simple really. When I first stepped up to a Street FIghter 2 cabinet, and I remember it clearly, I was 8 years old in the local movie theatre. There were 8 fighters and I played a few quarters worth inside a mob of like 10 dudes around the cabinet. That happened until I found my fighter, Ken. Then I slowly learned each other charactesr moves and strategies. I learned that I I was forcing GUile backwards, he could be charging up for something while evading me and if I could get air slammed by Chun Li if I led off a match by jumping at her. I learned this over the course of, what, a few months? A few dozen matches?

FLash forward 10 or 15 years. An 8 year old kid walks into his local arcade to play SF Alpha 3, the newest fighting game. He's greeted with how many characters? like 30? Okay, he picks one out of the sea of characters. Pick your style. What? What is any of this? Okay, he picks one. Now he has his first fight against an opponent. Now what are the odds that he's going to face that same opponent again any time soon? Learning the roster of opponents is a commitment that's prohibiting to new players. And until he learns his fighter and his opponents fighters, HE'S PROBABLY NOT EVEN HAVING FUN YET.

How many gamers never even touched an SNK game ebcause the whole thing was too complicated? I know hardcore gamers who have been gaming for decades and can't name an SNK fighter outside of Mai, and even that is a stretch.

Complication attracts hardcore gamers like stats attract football nuts and minutia of detail attracts car nuts. That's not good for attracting new players or selling untis to players outside the realm of the hardest of the hardcore.

If the new player has the love in competing, they will learn everything regardless of "complexity." Instant gratification and fun in serious play never applied in fighting games (or even any other competitive game) unless you are playing something tacky like War Gods. Dedication is what creates the barrier between one who wants to learn and one who doesn't. Hard work doesn't exist anymore.

You're missing what I'm saying.

I agree with you. FIghting games are about hard work.

But the problem, and what I've been saying the whole time, is that developers are making that hard work, harder and harder to do. And THAT is why the genre crashed.

And it's not just fighting games, it's any genre that "evolves" by feature creep. Tony Hawk suffered the same fate.

In the last Tekken, for example, in single player mode, I could play a round against an opponent and never play that same opponent again for literally 100 matches or more. And I think we're on the same page when we say that the fun in fighting games only comes out when you're getting into the nitty gritty of the system. WHat I'm saying is that the player is forced to play something like thousands of matches to just start getting into what makes the game fun. No gamer is going to DO that unless they already KNOW why it's fun. Would you really pick up a new genre of game that required you to invest dozens of hours to even begin to understand why it's fun?

@Itwastuesday said:

@JazGalaxy: A little off-topic here, but you may want to wait and see on SoulCalibur V. From what we've seen from people who have the game early, they've consolidated the character move sets so that they aren't loaded down with useless garbage moves (as what tends to happen a little too much in 3d fighters). They've also brought the number of characters down to 20 (which you could argue is still too many). The online features actually seem well thought out as well. Not that I'm saying it will sell as well as SF4, but I think it's shaping up to be a damn fine fighting game.

I certainly hope so because Sould Edge / Blade and Soul Calibur were games I spent long, long, long amounts of time with and are some of my favorite games ever made. But then Soul Calibur 2.3 and 4 came out and they just got.. boring.

The next Darkstalkers! Make it frickin' happen!!!

Psssst.... Patrick. You linked to the wrong King. You want this one: http://www.giantbomb.com/king/94-3147/

@Hailinel said:

Except that it's perfectly possible to be new to fighting games and have fun. The problem, from my experience, is that a good chunk of the hardcore fighting game community is terrible at introducing newcomers. These are the sorts of people that label newcomers as scrubs and brush them off as they're trying to get by on what little they've been able to learn. The sorts of people that make no attempt to help new players, unless they're definition of "help" is brutally destroying newcomers and expecting them to learn anything from the way that they were just decimated without explaining the how and why.

These people are terrible, and they are what creates the perception that the hardcore fighting community is an insular cabal. I am by no means saying that they are the majority; there are plenty of great people that go out of their way to help newcomers at least find their footing. But the fact remains that there are some true assholes out there that care little for anyone that don't worship at the altar of Daigo, and those fuckers are vocal.

Yeah a new player can get serious with the game and have fun but I feel that they need that genuine interest in actually playing.

@JazGalaxy said:

You're missing what I'm saying.

I agree with you. FIghting games are about hard work.

But the problem, and what I've been saying the whole time, is that developers are making that hard work, harder and harder to do. And THAT is why the genre crashed.

And it's not just fighting games, it's any genre that "evolves" by feature creep. Tony Hawk suffered the same fate.

In the last Tekken, for example, in single player mode, I could play a round against an opponent and never play that same opponent again for literally 100 matches or more. And I think we're on the same page when we say that the fun in fighting games only comes out when you're getting into the nitty gritty of the system. WHat I'm saying is that the player is forced to play something like thousands of matches to just start getting into what makes the game fun. No gamer is going to DO that unless they already KNOW why it's fun. Would you really pick up a new genre of game that required you to invest dozens of hours to even begin to understand why it's fun?

But Street Fighter X Tekken for example isn't adding parrying, focus attacks, x-factor (in the Marvel 3 sense), or Capcom vs. SNK grooves. The basic aspect that's been retained since Street Fighter II is still there but what's added is game specific mechanics that are ultimately not hard. In terms of the fun aspect, new players can have fun but fighting games have that point where when they want to go farther, the application of fun can be different (regardless of wins or losses).

*clicks on King link in the article*

What the hell, Patrick?

@ThePhantomnaut said:

@Hailinel said:

Except that it's perfectly possible to be new to fighting games and have fun. The problem, from my experience, is that a good chunk of the hardcore fighting game community is terrible at introducing newcomers. These are the sorts of people that label newcomers as scrubs and brush them off as they're trying to get by on what little they've been able to learn. The sorts of people that make no attempt to help new players, unless they're definition of "help" is brutally destroying newcomers and expecting them to learn anything from the way that they were just decimated without explaining the how and why.

These people are terrible, and they are what creates the perception that the hardcore fighting community is an insular cabal. I am by no means saying that they are the majority; there are plenty of great people that go out of their way to help newcomers at least find their footing. But the fact remains that there are some true assholes out there that care little for anyone that don't worship at the altar of Daigo, and those fuckers are vocal.

Yeah a new player can get serious with the game and have fun but I feel that they need that genuine interest in actually playing.

@JazGalaxy said:

You're missing what I'm saying.

I agree with you. FIghting games are about hard work.

But the problem, and what I've been saying the whole time, is that developers are making that hard work, harder and harder to do. And THAT is why the genre crashed.

And it's not just fighting games, it's any genre that "evolves" by feature creep. Tony Hawk suffered the same fate.

In the last Tekken, for example, in single player mode, I could play a round against an opponent and never play that same opponent again for literally 100 matches or more. And I think we're on the same page when we say that the fun in fighting games only comes out when you're getting into the nitty gritty of the system. WHat I'm saying is that the player is forced to play something like thousands of matches to just start getting into what makes the game fun. No gamer is going to DO that unless they already KNOW why it's fun. Would you really pick up a new genre of game that required you to invest dozens of hours to even begin to understand why it's fun?

But Street Fighter X Tekken for example isn't adding parrying, focus attacks, x-factor (in the Marvel 3 sense), or Capcom vs. SNK grooves. The basic aspect that's been retained since Street Fighter II is still there but what's added is game specific mechanics that are ultimately not hard. In terms of the fun aspect, new players can have fun but fighting games have that point where when they want to go farther, the application of fun can be different (regardless of wins or losses).

You missed part of my point. To go further, newcomers need to feel welcome by the more established audience. When it comes to trying anything new, how often does someone stick with an activity if the result is constantly getting kicked in the face and being told you suck by the guy that owns the foot?

@Hailinel said:

@ThePhantomnaut said:

@Hailinel said:

Except that it's perfectly possible to be new to fighting games and have fun. The problem, from my experience, is that a good chunk of the hardcore fighting game community is terrible at introducing newcomers. These are the sorts of people that label newcomers as scrubs and brush them off as they're trying to get by on what little they've been able to learn. The sorts of people that make no attempt to help new players, unless they're definition of "help" is brutally destroying newcomers and expecting them to learn anything from the way that they were just decimated without explaining the how and why.

These people are terrible, and they are what creates the perception that the hardcore fighting community is an insular cabal. I am by no means saying that they are the majority; there are plenty of great people that go out of their way to help newcomers at least find their footing. But the fact remains that there are some true assholes out there that care little for anyone that don't worship at the altar of Daigo, and those fuckers are vocal.

Yeah a new player can get serious with the game and have fun but I feel that they need that genuine interest in actually playing.

@JazGalaxy said:

You're missing what I'm saying.

I agree with you. FIghting games are about hard work.

But the problem, and what I've been saying the whole time, is that developers are making that hard work, harder and harder to do. And THAT is why the genre crashed.

And it's not just fighting games, it's any genre that "evolves" by feature creep. Tony Hawk suffered the same fate.

In the last Tekken, for example, in single player mode, I could play a round against an opponent and never play that same opponent again for literally 100 matches or more. And I think we're on the same page when we say that the fun in fighting games only comes out when you're getting into the nitty gritty of the system. WHat I'm saying is that the player is forced to play something like thousands of matches to just start getting into what makes the game fun. No gamer is going to DO that unless they already KNOW why it's fun. Would you really pick up a new genre of game that required you to invest dozens of hours to even begin to understand why it's fun?

But Street Fighter X Tekken for example isn't adding parrying, focus attacks, x-factor (in the Marvel 3 sense), or Capcom vs. SNK grooves. The basic aspect that's been retained since Street Fighter II is still there but what's added is game specific mechanics that are ultimately not hard. In terms of the fun aspect, new players can have fun but fighting games have that point where when they want to go farther, the application of fun can be different (regardless of wins or losses).

You missed part of my point. To go further, newcomers need to feel welcome by the more established audience. When it comes to trying anything new, how often does someone stick with an activity if the result is constantly getting kicked in the face and being told you suck by the guy that owns the foot?

Oh I see. The experienced have to welcome new and interested players. From my experience, a majority of the players I encounter in my scene are helpful people. Unfortunately I don't see much in some other parts (on the internets of course).

King looks like a Jaguar to me....

Is there a namco version of this apart from the capcom version.

@aspaceinvader said:

Is there a namco version of this apart from the capcom version.

Yeah, Namco's working on Tekken x Street Fighter, but it's really early in development from what I've heard.

Giant Bomb: Fighting games were a massive hit in the 90s...until they weren’t. With several games now under your belt, how do you avoid falling into the same complexity pit that alienated so many players all over again?

Why are there dinosaurs in the background of that top screenshot? 

Gems seem interesting

You wanted to be able to appeal to the casual audience, while having enough stuff in there for hardcore fans to play, research and do their thing in the training mode. What we tried to do with Street Fighter X Tekken was to put in aspects that would appeal to all users, things like cross rush, the tag battles--these are the things that the casual user can really enjoy really easily, while it also has some merit for the hardcore players. It’s definitely really hard, but we tried our best with Street Fighter X Tekken to keep everyone in mind and make something that everyone can enjoy. 

With the things he said about bringing your own personality to your character, I now get the gem system a little more...let's see how it pans out. What I'm loving most about the game is kitschy yellow and purple neon style - so arcade, so Japan...

Ono: For me, the key word is customization. With Street Fighter X Tekken, this was a big challenge. It was the first time we’ve done anything like this with the gem system, but I think fighting games would really benefit from having a little bit more of that personal touch. How am I, as a player, approaching that particular character? In 10, 20 years, if fighting games can get to that point where everyone has their own little personality within their own character, I think that would really benefit the genre. It’s something that I’m really working hard towards.

If we come up with Street Fighter 5, Street Fighter 6 or Street Fighter 7, I’d like to have players be able to say “Oh, you know, Jason’s Ryu in Street Fighter 6 was so good!” That guy’s character, not that character, not “Oh, Yun and Yang are so broken!” If I’m still working for Capcom in the next 20 years and they haven’t fired me yet [laughs], that’s the goal that I’d want to work towards.

You see? This man does not understand fighting games. Critical, fundamental misunderstanding of the genre's appeal.

I would like to see Ono head up a brand new IP fighting game. One of the things that's making these titles feel so similar is that Street Fighter characters are in all the games. That's all Capcom does now. But back in the day, they experimented. They created not just Street Fighter, but Darkstalkers, Star Gladiator and stuff (Warzard? Red Earth? Those were Capcom fighting games, right?). They really should do something new...especially now that they've been talking with Namco and have learnt a bit about other developers' fighting game philosophy. That would be fresh...though, naturally, it would not be as successful as just slapping the Street Fighter name on another game.

@The_LMFAO_Guy said:

You wanted to be able to appeal to the casual audience, while having enough stuff in there for hardcore fans to play, research and do their thing in the training mode. What we tried to do with Street Fighter X Tekken was to put in aspects that would appeal to all users, things like cross rush, the tag battles--these are the things that the casual user can really enjoy really easily, while it also has some merit for the hardcore players. It’s definitely really hard, but we tried our best with Street Fighter X Tekken to keep everyone in mind and make something that everyone can enjoy.

And yet, your training mode always sucks because you guys don't even try to revamp it. Heck, you guys couldn't even add more options in the training mode for SFIII OE. And why not add more gameplay modes for offline and online to appeal to casual fans? And non-ignorant people don't like shady DLC deals. Try listening to your fanbase, not just competitive fighting game fans who only post in SRK, that way you won't just make assumptions out of your ass. As a matter of fact, one of the developers of SFIII OE was only taking suggesting from the users of that web site, despite the fact that Seth Kilian said that Capcom listens to people who post in their official web site. I mean, who the hell wants useless fan art and useless trail/mission mode? Yeah, my point exactly.

Correct. There is a whole host of things fighting game fans have been asking for in recent years that would go a long way towards making the genre more accessible to the new player. The idea is to make the game easier to learn out of the box without having to venture on to the internet to piece through the wide variety of fighting game websites for information. Easier access to information, NOT shoehorning in gimmicky flash mechanics that allow the banging of one's fist upon the controller to produce pretty colours and cool shit. In the past Ono has brushed this idea off by saying that he thinks learning the system and figuring out combos is part of the fun of the game. He does not understand that accessibility can be achieved without harming the core nature of the game or the complexity thereof. Also, Capcom, for the love of god stop perpetuating the idea that parry was the reason SFIII sold poorly. SFIII did not do well because it had almost all new characters and was released in stilted fashion that made it impossible for a wide part of the audience to play until the PS2 release years later (arcade only, then Japan only, then Dreamcast exclusive before finally hitting PS2).

Things fighting games need that developers have so far refused to do*:

-comprehensive in game tutorial system. Basic mechanics yes, but also general fighting game specific stuff. What is a cross up? An overhead? What is a block string? What does it mean if a move is safe on block or not? Which moves are and are not safe? Does my character have any? What is a good set of starting combos to learn for my character? How do you cancel from one move into another? Why is this important? Exactly how much meter does each of my ex moves and supers consume? How can my character get around projectiles? How can I stop my opponents from constantly jumping in at me? How can I stop them from running away from me all the time? No developer has made a sincere effort to do this correctly thus far.

-tips prompt after a fight that could point out some of the reasons why you lost your last match. Always getting hit by reversals? Always getting punished for your unsafe specials? Having trouble blocking crossups?

-construct the game from the ground up to support the best netcode available. Devote RESOURCES to this problem. In this generation, smooth netplay should be PRIORITY NUMBER 1. Not the tack-on feature that follows the rationale of "if it works okay in Japan, it's fine" mentality. Fighting games live and die on their multiplayer, devote time and budget accordingly.

-Support the tournament community. Listen to them when they ask for features that will help them run the game smoothly under that environment. That means: streamline button config, all characters accessible without having to unlock, streamline character selection if your selection process is multiple layers of choices, do not include features that actively make everyone's life harder in tournaments- if it makes it more tedious process to get into a vs. match and start playing, your new feature sucks.

*- there is one exception. Reverge Labs, the developers of the upcoming Skullgirls, have been doing things right. Please make sure to check out that game when it releases in the coming months. Everything I listed above they have addressed and then some.

@HerbieBug said:

-comprehensive in game tutorial system. Basic mechanics yes, but also general fighting game specific stuff. What is a cross up? An overhead? What is a block string? What does it mean if a move is safe on block or not? Which moves are and are not safe? Does my character have any? What is a good set of starting combos to learn for my character? How do you cancel from one move into another? Why is this important? Exactly how much meter does each of my ex moves and supers consume? How can my character get around projectiles? How can I stop my opponents from constantly jumping in at me? How can I stop them from running away from me all the time? No developer has made a sincere effort to do this correctly thus far.

-tips prompt after a fight that could point out some of the reasons why you lost your last match. Always getting hit by reversals? Always getting punished for your unsafe specials? Having trouble blocking crossups?

This, so much.

I think the gradual drop-off every fighting game's player base undergoes is easily comparable to any competitive genre. Most people will come in for the story mode, and maybe they'll stick around for some competition with their friends. The story will end, though, and their friends will lose interest, eventually. Then, all that's left are the people who weren't there for the story to begin with, and who are either far better than all of their friends, or are friends with people who are just as good as them-- competitors.

From StarCraft 2 to Battlefield 3 to Super Street Fighter 4: Arcade Edition, competitive games are awful at teaching you how to compete. They're a shell game that catches your eye with the flashy single player components before you realize that there are only a handful of hours of solo-entertainment in there. You're left to wander in to the fray, and only after you've started losing do you realize that the rules and systems for beating strange humans are worlds apart from the methods you used against the AI, or your local group of pals.

After your ears have heard snippets of the strange language that these competitors use, you venture to learn more; to understand. The game does little to teach you. It offers names and acronyms that don't align with the sounds you heard volleyed between the competitors. So, you go online to learn more. You find out that there is indeed a preexisting dialect for each of these games, and that it was established years ago, at the genesis of whatever series or genre.

For whatever reason, though, developers don't want to teach you the common tongue of the competitor. They'd rather offer you next to nothing, or the "opportunity" to learn through immersion.

lol crapcom

@HerbieBug: I love how you just voiced all of my major problems with fighting games. I never played them when I was younger and I have SSFIV and want to learn how to better play it, but the learning curve is just too steep and I have no way to tell what I'm doing wrong or what my timing is supposed to be. I have no clue how to string together combos or why you would do certain moves in certain situations.

I think this guy's totally out of touch with what actually needs to be done. Fighting superfans have never let go of the genre, and they won't. They're the niche audience. To appeal more to the masses, help them learn how to play them. Also, learn from MK on the storyline side of things and make the experience more interesting for all players. This gimmicky gem stuff only goes so far, and I don't want to be treated like an infant when I'm playing the game. I'm freaking good at games, but I'm just not competent at fighting games because of such limited exposure.

Woah! You guys got a nice lil' interview with Ono there :D

Cool stuff!

"Street Fighter 5, 6 and 7"? Noooo! Let some other producer handles those, it wasn't Ono series to begin with. Let the staff and crew shuffle a bit!

"Some of them got kind of complicated--Third Strike"

Don't ya badmouth SF3, Ono-san!! SF3-3rdS's still my favorite fighting game to this day!! (alongside Mark of the Wolves)

Dam this looks great can't wait to get it! What a collaboration, this is how to evolve in the fighting genre! Now give us Tatsunoko vs Capcom 2 on PS3 and Xbox.

@Vade said:

I thought King wore a jaguar mask.

Yeeeaah. He switched his mistake for another one.

I like how Patrick put in a hyperlink to the wrong King.