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Investigating the Words of Michael Pachter

Looking into the analyst's recent comments on overtime, unions, profit pools and salaries.

Michael Pachter is easily the most vocal, well-known analyst speaking on video games.
Michael Pachter is easily the most vocal, well-known analyst speaking on video games.

Michael Pachter making headlines? Never!

Of course, now I've just added to the pile...but stay with me for a second.

The Wedbush Securities analyst has never been one to shy away from a bold statement. When a Pach Attack! viewer asked him about the reports of extended crunch development at L.A. Noire's Team Bondi and what it says about the rights of game creators, Pachter had no shortage of opinions on several topics--overtime, unions and more.

I'm not here to offer my own thoughts on Pachter's comments. Instead, I've plucked the statements that generated the most response elsewhere, and tried to prove, disprove or, at least, provide some context to them.

"I've never heard a developer say I don't work overtime and I don't work weekends. I do not think the game development process as having employees that qualify for overtime."

The concept of paid overtime is a contentious one, the argument in favor stemming from the industry's struggles with crunch, where a development team ends up working insane hours--nights, weekends--to finish a project. It's reported Team Bondi operated on crunch hours for more than a year to finish work on L.A. Noire.

Hourly employees can earn overtime pay, while salaried employees are not legally entitled to overtime.

"While compensation is certainly part of the equation, the fact is the problems extend well beyond compensation," said Brian Robbins, chair of the International Game Developers Association board of directors and founder of mobile developer Riptide Games. "At best, extended crunch becomes unproductive for the team, and in the worst cases causes physical and mental harm on the people involved."

The IGDA is a non-profit industry membership organization meant to connect developers with one another and to advocate for issues affecting the industry workforce. It is not a union, a subject we'll touch on a bit later.

The extended crunch time alleged by current and former Team Bondi employees is on the extreme end of the spectrum.
The extended crunch time alleged by current and former Team Bondi employees is on the extreme end of the spectrum.

"Crunch and overtime in gaming is, as any experienced developer knows, a part of life in the games industry," added Haunted Temple Studios co-founder Jake Kazdal.

Kazdal is currently working on the strategy game Skulls of the Shogun, recently picked up by Microsoft for Xbox Live Arcade. He previously worked on Rez at United Game Artists and the cancelled Steven Spielberg project LMNO at Electronic Arts, among other projects. He's well on the way to the home stretch of Skulls of the Shogun now.

"It is expected, but the idea that people aren't 'entitled' to overtime pay is simply ignorant," argued Kazdal. "People sacrifice time with their children and spouses, miss important events, completely exhaust themselves for the sake of the project, why the hell shouldn't they be compensated?"

Pachter wasn't saying developers shouldn't be compensated at all, but that it shouldn't come through overtime.

"If a game is good, and LA Noire was really good, there will be a profit pool and there will be bonuses. If you're good, and you hit it big, you make a ton of money."

L.A. Noire might have a profit pool. It might not. It actually doesn't matter. According to the latest annual salary survey published in the April issue of Game Developer, 77% of developers polled--sans business and legal--received income on top of their standard salary.

Profit pools definitely exist, but there are risks associated with them--and they're not common.
Profit pools definitely exist, but there are risks associated with them--and they're not common.

31% earned a bonus after a project or title shipped, 14% received royalties in addition to their salary and 16% engaged in profit sharing. Some developers had a mix of these, including stock options and regular annual bonuses.

All told, the average additional compensation was $12,712.

"I've been in the industry for 15+ years, worked on lots of cool projects, but not once have I ever received any money from a profit pool," said Kazdal. "Rez was a great game, but that doesn't automatically mean we made a ton of cash and that cash bled out as far as the artists and programmers. To suggest that all good games make the developers rich is just ridiculous. That is reserved for the mega-titles, which my eclectic career has not put in my path."

Kazdal does have friends who've benefited from a profit pool--but they worked on Gran Turismo.

Former Infinity Ward co-founders Jason West and Vince Zampella had an ugly split from Activision last year, an impasse that's still to be resolved in a splashy lawsuit. Amongst other things, West and Zampella are suing Activision over more than $100 million in unpaid royalties. It's not chump change.

There are no guarantees with a profit pool, either as one anonymous developer who once participated in one told me.

Call of Duty? Gran Turismo? There's a distinct pattern with profit pools: very, very big games.
Call of Duty? Gran Turismo? There's a distinct pattern with profit pools: very, very big games.

"Even if there is a profit pool, it's incredibly unlikely you'll see anything, let alone the whole amount," said the developer. "Most likely the threshold to go into the pool is too high to ever pay out. If it does pay out, the less reputable publishers will find ways to bend terms to reduce or cancel the payout. The payout is almost always staggered out over multiple years too, and they'll almost definitely only be tied to your employment, so if you leave before the payout finishes, you won't get the remaining royalties."

That final point--getting no money because you've left before payout finishes--is one of the egregious allegations in the Infinity Ward suit, in which Activision was allegedly locking developers into continuing to work at the studio in order to receive payouts for the previous game's royalties.

"We're talking about a games industry where the average compensation is well above $60,000 and often above $100,000 a year. I just don't think people who make $100,000 a year need a whole lot of protection because they have to work overtime."

Pachter brings up two points. First, the average salary of a game developer. We can pull applicable data from the same Game Developer salary survey, which proves Pachter partially right.

  • Programmers: $85,733
  • Artists and Animators: $71,354
  • Game Designers: $70,223
  • Producers: $88,544
  • Audio Professionals: $68,088
  • QA Testers: $49,009

The overall average? $72,158, definitely above $60,000. "Often" above $100,000? Not necessarily. Based on the survey, earning at least, close to or more than $100,000 is definitely possible in every department except QA, but you need to be at the top position within your field (i.e. technical director vs. programmer) and have more than six years of experience.

Just working at a big studio doesn't guarantee a massive salary. Experience makes all the difference.
Just working at a big studio doesn't guarantee a massive salary. Experience makes all the difference.

Lastly, there's the concept of organizing into unions, in order to collectively force publishers to treat developers more fairly.

It's a polarizing topic that, like all these subjects, really deserves its own story to be fully explored.

That said, the results of the most recent IGDA "Quality of Life" survey presented at the Game Developers Conference last year suggested there is support for unionizing game developers, albeit support that's hardly across the board.

Of 2,506 surveyed, 35% were for unions, 31% sided against unions and 34% either didn't have an opinion or preferred not to say. More than one-third isn't a number to scoff at, but there are significant challenges to actual unionization.

"Ignoring whether or not it makes sense to have a union for game developers, the reality is it would be very difficult to create one," said Robbins. "The vast geographic diversity of game development, makes for a significant challenge to unionizing, even before you start looking at the realities for what unionization would mean for developers, and trying to see if a significant number of developers support the idea."

Pachter later better clarified his position through an editorial on Industry Gamers. He reiterated that working conditions at Team Bondi seemed indefensible (a point he made in the original video, to be fair), but there was little to suggest that these employees deserved overtime or that unions would have a natural way of integrating into the video game industry.

Either way, Pachter's just the latest to weigh in on a controversial topic that's swirled for years. He won't be the last, either.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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edeo

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Edited By edeo

Tim Schaefer has never been one to shy away from controversy.

Cliff Bleszinski has never been one to shy away from controversy.

Itagaki has never been one to shy away from controversy.

This is a gaming cliche that needs to die as badly as "compelling gameplay".

Not too much to be surprised about here. It's the same old story of the rich making sure they keep their fortunes and ordinary people getting shafted.

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patrickklepek

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@Zelazny7 said:

Dude, Patrick, you can't take the average of a bunch of averages and conclude that's the average salary... What if there was only 1 programmer and 1,000 QA testers? You have to take a weighted average. So you haven't verified Pachter's claim that the average salary is well over $60,000. In my experience, Pachter has been wrong way more than he's been right. I would bet the average salary of the games industry is barely over 60k if at all.

I'm happy to look at more data--I used what I could from the Game Developer survey. It's not a complete picture, nor is Pachter's.

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patrickklepek

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@Archaen said:

From the article: "Hourly employees can earn overtime pay, while salaried employees are not legally entitled to overtime." This statement is factually incorrect in the United States. Employees are considered hourly or salaried and they are also considered overtime exempt or non-exempt. You can be salaried and overtime non-exempt. In fact, most salaried positions are non-exempt. To be exempt you have to either be in a management position or be a software engineer making more than a certain amount of money per year. There are other exemption conditions as well, but the vast majority of salaried employees in the US get paid overtime if they have to work it. For example I have friends who work at Blizzard. They have mandatory overtime on a regular basis and they do indeed get paid for it despite being salaried employees.

I'm aware of except/non-exempt, and admit it would have been useful to make that more clear, but do you have data to back up that more people are paid overtime than are not?

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piropeople13

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Edited By piropeople13

@pyj4m4r4m4 said:

I'm done with Pachter and hope GiantBomb doesn't invite him again. Maybe he tried to tone thing down but what he said first his what he thinks really. Sure is he can speak is mind but I don't need to ear is savage capitalism survival of the fittest rhetoric so I'm done listening.

It is important to listen to what everybody has to say even if it makes you a little sick to hear it. It makes you a wiser person.

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confideration

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Edited By confideration

@patrickklepek said:

@Archaen said:

From the article: "Hourly employees can earn overtime pay, while salaried employees are not legally entitled to overtime." This statement is factually incorrect in the United States. Employees are considered hourly or salaried and they are also considered overtime exempt or non-exempt. You can be salaried and overtime non-exempt. In fact, most salaried positions are non-exempt. To be exempt you have to either be in a management position or be a software engineer making more than a certain amount of money per year. There are other exemption conditions as well, but the vast majority of salaried employees in the US get paid overtime if they have to work it. For example I have friends who work at Blizzard. They have mandatory overtime on a regular basis and they do indeed get paid for it despite being salaried employees.

I'm aware of except/non-exempt, and admit it would have been useful to make that more clear, but do you have data to back up that more people are paid overtime than are not?

I'll chime in and cite CA law for my line of work. By law I have to make a certain amount in order to be salary exempt as an Information Technology worker.

I would guess many states have similar laws. Possibly many states avoid such laws in order to attract businesses.

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Archaen

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Edited By Archaen
@patrickklepek said:

@Archaen said:

From the article: "Hourly employees can earn overtime pay, while salaried employees are not legally entitled to overtime." This statement is factually incorrect in the United States. Employees are considered hourly or salaried and they are also considered overtime exempt or non-exempt. You can be salaried and overtime non-exempt. In fact, most salaried positions are non-exempt. To be exempt you have to either be in a management position or be a software engineer making more than a certain amount of money per year. There are other exemption conditions as well, but the vast majority of salaried employees in the US get paid overtime if they have to work it. For example I have friends who work at Blizzard. They have mandatory overtime on a regular basis and they do indeed get paid for it despite being salaried employees.

I'm aware of except/non-exempt, and admit it would have been useful to make that more clear, but do you have data to back up that more people are paid overtime than are not?

I don't have demographic data readily available to me, unfortunately, aside from small blurbs here and there. 
Example: http://www.bentericksen.com/PDF%27s-Support%20docs/Salary%20vs%20Hourly,%20which%20is%20best.pdf
"At least 95 percent of all staff in small businesses is non-exempt."
 
There may be a way to get programmers and artists listed as overtime exempt, but I would think the people I know at Blizzard who are artists and producers wouldn't receive overtime pay if there was a legal way out of it. Also remember that there are a lot more artists who are developers than programmers, so while a programmer may be overtime exempt an artist may not be.
 
I think a lot of companies do get away with considering salaried equivalent to overtime exempt because the average person has that misconception and there's no real risk in breaking that law. I did historical overtime accounting for an aeronautical glue manufacturer because they were caught paying incorrect or no overtime for their laborers and their fine was modest in the grand scheme of things. All they had to do was pay the fine and pay the unpaid overtime, so there's little risk involved in not paying for overtime in the hopes that you don't get caught.
 
If you're interested in writing another article I'd start by looking at the base positions in each game development field and see if they qualified for overtime with something like this: (http://www.experience.com/alumnus/article?channel_id=salaries&source_page=editor_picks&article_id=article_1126286324069) The rules change every year, so it could be there are more exemptions than when I worked in the field for a little while 10+ years ago.
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Archaen

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Edited By Archaen

Patrick,
Here's a list of California exemptions to overtime laws, for instance:
 
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_overtimeexemptions.htm
 
For Information Technology workers here are some quick notes from a lawyer's site:
 http://www.gotovertime.com/IT_overtime.html
http://www.gotovertime.com/tech-job-descriptions-overtime.html
 
According to him: "Unfortunately, many employers feel that paying a salary is the only thing they are required to pay to IT workers. However, the vast majority of IT workers are entitled to overtime, even when paid on a salary basis."
 
Also, I'd like to apologize for my tone in my first comment. I appreciate your effort in trying to bring investigate journalism to the games media and could have responded more considerately with my criticism.

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@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

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SeriouslyNow

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@OneManX said:

@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

He isn't paid to overtly quash the rights of the workers who create games in public by deliberately misconstruing employment laws and standards, mix them with a passionate desire of a lot of his audience to enter the industry and then tell blatant lies.

Or maybe he is.

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Edited By coreymw

I learned two important things from this write-up.

1. My feelings on Pachter were spot on. He's a man whom people listen, but should not. He's made a career out of being wrong.

B. I can make almost 50k as a QA tester? Where do I sign up?

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Wandrecanada

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This is the kind of journalism that we need in this industry.  Patrick has done a splendid job and I will certainly be spreading the word for this and hopefully any future articles of this nature to anyone I can get to read it.  The fourth estate has lost much to capitalism and I hope that more like this will come soon!

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warxsnake

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@OneManX said:

@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

You do understand you just said predict. I have no problems with that issue, he can predict things about unreleased platforms or games all he wants. That is what he is paid to do.

However my post was about a game that has been out for more than a year (BFBC2) and he is not making any effort to research what is already well known by others in the industry and even "basic gamers".

He said that as an answer to a question on his show about Origin Vs Steam, and he was trying to downplay the importance of the PC version of BF3 by saying the previous itteration didn't sell well, and he was wrong. I'm not the only one who remarked on that, 90% of the feedback on his episode was about this.

If you are going to appear on a show where all you do is answer user questions about stuff that is either unknown or released already, the least you can do is perform a 5 minute search, instead of saying "I think this game sold this many units and that's why I think its not important".

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Sooty

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I don't understand why something this nobody said has sparked such outrage, who cares what he thinks? He's just some guy that predicts stuff and is more often than not wrong. Oh yeah and a PC hater.
 
Slow news day indeed. I like Klepek's in-depth articles but not when they're about something as trivial and unimportant as Michael Pachter.

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@Ygg: Because the money men listen to Pachter, and his views give credence to people with no interest in better management and working conditions for workers in the videogame industry.

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It sure is cold in here...

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The concept of paid overtime is a contentious one, the argument in favor stemming from the industry's struggles with crunch, where a development team ends up working insane hours--nights, weekends--to finish a project. It's reported Team Bondi operated on crunch hours for more than a year to finish work on L.A. Noire.

Hourly employees can earn overtime pay, while salaried employees are not legally entitled to overtime.

I'm from Sydney, New South Wales (same as Team Bondi) and I'm employed as a programmer. In both my current job and my previous one, I've been paid overtime on top of my yearly salary - the first company had over 10,000 employees and my current workplace has less than 50, so I don't think it has anything to do with scale.

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Edited By MajorToms

I'd like to see a more in depth article on unions, Patrick. I'm not usually for unions because they allow room for slackers to get by, but it comes down to protecting the programmers, artists, animators, etc... You would be surprised at the length of time it takes to fully recover mentally from month long grinds filled with long days, weekdays and weekends, with really hard hours. Contrast that with how much lay over these people get after they put out a product and how well they're compensated for such dedication.

I don't care how much money your salary nets you. So long as you're putting in more than you're expected to for extended periods of time, whilst factoring in an amount of physical and mental exertion, there is a warrant for some form of compensation. Union's allow for this kind of control to be put back in the hands of the people who really make video games happen. Publishers and developers make tons of money off the back of little guys. I think it's about time the hard work gets justly rewarded, taking the cash crops out of the hands of the suits that run these companies and putting it in the hands of the people who make it possible.

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insightful, well organized, and professionally written article.  I approve!

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cranstallion

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@Bravestar said:
The numbers of the Game Developer salary survey don't say that much, unless we get the standard deviation too(I don't know if it was included in the survey) or atleast the median. An average of 70 to 90 could mean most of them earn above 100k, when you have someone like indie devs in the pool, who earn next to nothing and who pull the average number down. But without some more numbers it's impossible to say.
Also, Patrick apparently got the "overall average" by adding the numbers together and dividing by 6. Because every game has equal parts of each of the 6 roles, right?
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spazmaster666

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Edited By spazmaster666

A much better read than the bombastic tirades that I've read in the forums. The thing about Pachter that a lot of people don't seem to get (at least this is the impression I get from reading a lot of the hate-filled comments about him around the web) is that most of the statements he makes on Pach Attack, Bonus Round, etc. are just his public/personal opinions and often have little, if anything, to do with his actual job title--which is a stock market analyst.

As Pachter has himself stated, the stocks that he covers about 20 stocks which includes the major video game publishers so that's why he knows more about the video game industry than your typical stock market analyst. But at the end of the day he's still a financial analyst, so obviously his knowledge about the video game industry is going to be mainly on the business side of things. With these facts in mind, it's pretty easy to understand why he says the things he says.

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AndrewBeardsley

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good article Patrick

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@Buzzkill said:

@GreggD said:

@Buzzkill said:

Also, the fallout doll in his picture is really bugging me because the fallout guy isn't suppose to have a nose.

He actually does. I'm looking at my Fallout 2 shortcut right now, and he has a nose in that.

Ok then the nose on that doll is too big, it's really weirding me out.

Yeah, I just looked at it again. Looks like Barbra Streisand.

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monkeyking1969

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Edited By monkeyking1969

I think Pachter was right with his comments on overtime. Moreover, I think the open letter Charles Randall wrote about Pachters comments were off base. Even Charles Randall ADMITS in his op-ed he has never worked at a company that managed projects well enough to avoid a crunch. Dozens of projects and he has never managed a projects without crunch and never seen one managed without crunch or crunches (plural). So why is he so sure 'crunch' can be managed at all?

Thinking about big Collaborative projects I’ve seen I’ve never seen one without crunch even when managed by experts, planners, and engineers. I take my real world expericne from the building industry and the information industry, but I think it woudl apply to making games too. In a building projects there is always the "punch list" to do after the project is done. In my office when writing a large collabrative document like a three year plan or a disaster plan there are always late editions, changes, and re-writes.

You cannot manage a big project that has a time factor and multiple entites wokring on it without allowing for cushion but also plans for how to crunch. There are three things in any project: cost, time, and product. One will always suffer for efficiency; and if you don not think so then you are not REALLY watching costs at all.

Therefore, my bottom line is "crunch can be managed" but only so far and only so much. You can plan to manage all you want but you cannot eliminate the headaches/occurrence of crunch with mere pre-planning. It is easy to say “this was mismanaged” after everything is done, but who in management is a mind reader for issues & problems a year ahead of time? Collaborative projects are ‘living things’ which move like cats in a herd. Management job is to guide and render decisions; it is not to wave magic wands to make no-risk, no-suffering, no-inconvenience solutions to every possible scenario a year ahead of time.

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RoyCampbell

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@Ygg said:
I don't understand why something this nobody said has sparked such outrage, who cares what he thinks? He's just some guy that predicts stuff and is more often than not wrong. Oh yeah and a PC hater. Slow news day indeed. I like Klepek's in-depth articles but not when they're about something as trivial and unimportant as Michael Pachter.
Thanks for this. He sounds like a fun guy, but he's also pretty dumb, confidently so.
 
Yeah, sure. He's the analyst and I'm not, but I... uhh... don't care?
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kelbear

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Meh. They know they're going to work a ton of overtime for their salary and took the job anyway. Everybody wishes they could get compensated more. 
 
Public Accounting has a mandatory 60-hour /minimum/ work week for 4 months out of the year, plus additional months as they see fit, and those months may even take place in another state or even another country whether or not you have a family. Notice that I said minimum. It often goes well over 60 hours a week.  But the pay is good relative to the requisite level of experience, and the value of the experience on the resume leads to pay that would hard if not impossible to get in the same amount of time through another accounting career path. But there's no public accounting union because there's still plenty of competition to get these jobs, the work is hard, but the reward is still seen as being enough to justify it. 

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Spiritof

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Feels like there are some people out there who want to get fat even if a game they've made flops.

I wish I could get a job where I'm guaranteed to get richer and richer no matter how poorly I do it.

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@SeriouslyNow said:

@OneManX said:

@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

He isn't paid to overtly quash the rights of the workers who create games in public by deliberately misconstruing employment laws and standards, mix them with a passionate desire of a lot of his audience to enter the industry and then tell blatant lies.

Or maybe he is.

He's an analyst at a company that ranks consistently in Forbes Magazine and The Wall Street Journal top 10 for analysing various technology and consumer product markets. Last year in Forbes they Wedbush Securities were ranked 1 analyst for computer software and services ... the point is INVESTORS, as in the people who invest money in companies, listen to him. You wanna know where the money for big AAA games come from? Big publicly traded companies rely on investors and investors turn to guys like this. You don't have to like him, but his opinion, like it or not, matters to important people.

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SeriouslyNow

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@PandaBear said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@OneManX said:

@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

He isn't paid to overtly quash the rights of the workers who create games in public by deliberately misconstruing employment laws and standards, mix them with a passionate desire of a lot of his audience to enter the industry and then tell blatant lies.

Or maybe he is.

He's an analyst at a company that ranks consistently in Forbes Magazine and The Wall Street Journal top 10 for analysing various technology and consumer product markets. Last year in Forbes they Wedbush Securities were ranked 1 analyst for computer software and services ... the point is INVESTORS, as in the people who invest money in companies, listen to him. You wanna know where the money for big AAA games come from? Big publicly traded companies rely on investors and investors turn to guys like this. You don't have to like him, but his opinion, like it or not, matters to important people.

Then there's no need to defend the man is there?

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PandaBear

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Edited By PandaBear

@SeriouslyNow said:

@PandaBear said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@OneManX said:

@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

He isn't paid to overtly quash the rights of the workers who create games in public by deliberately misconstruing employment laws and standards, mix them with a passionate desire of a lot of his audience to enter the industry and then tell blatant lies.

Or maybe he is.

He's an analyst at a company that ranks consistently in Forbes Magazine and The Wall Street Journal top 10 for analysing various technology and consumer product markets. Last year in Forbes they Wedbush Securities were ranked 1 analyst for computer software and services ... the point is INVESTORS, as in the people who invest money in companies, listen to him. You wanna know where the money for big AAA games come from? Big publicly traded companies rely on investors and investors turn to guys like this. You don't have to like him, but his opinion, like it or not, matters to important people.

Then there's no need to defend the man is there?

Yeah, you're right. Nobody should have a different opinion than you or show how wrong you are, right?Sigh. I'm not "defending" him, I'm saying you're wrong - what he says, right or wrong, matters. You can't put your opinion out there and not expect others to respond.

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Good article. I personally do not believe in the use for unions for the same reasons that Pach mentioned in his video. But I'm also a Libertarian and Pach is an avowed Democrat, as he has said himself. If you hear a Democrat say there is no use for a union.....it's doubtful there is any point to one. The market for video games and their devs would not be kind to a union.

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SeriouslyNow

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@PandaBear said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@PandaBear said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@OneManX said:

@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

He isn't paid to overtly quash the rights of the workers who create games in public by deliberately misconstruing employment laws and standards, mix them with a passionate desire of a lot of his audience to enter the industry and then tell blatant lies.

Or maybe he is.

He's an analyst at a company that ranks consistently in Forbes Magazine and The Wall Street Journal top 10 for analysing various technology and consumer product markets. Last year in Forbes they Wedbush Securities were ranked 1 analyst for computer software and services ... the point is INVESTORS, as in the people who invest money in companies, listen to him. You wanna know where the money for big AAA games come from? Big publicly traded companies rely on investors and investors turn to guys like this. You don't have to like him, but his opinion, like it or not, matters to important people.

Then there's no need to defend the man is there?

Yeah, you're right. Nobody should have a different opinion than you or show how wrong you are, right?Sigh. I'm not "defending" him, I'm saying you're wrong - what he says, right or wrong, matters. You can't put your opinion out there and not expect others to respond.

How am I wrong? How does he having some position of importance put him beyond judgement? Many important people in the history of the world have been wrong. He's already been proved wrong in this case (and in others too) by the mere fact that he's had to clarify and re-explain his position multiple times. He's been proved wrong wrt unionization in the article which fuels this discussion (have you read it?) where over 30% of responders when asked support unionization - a third of Industry is all that's needed to get it to happen, hell even 10% is enough to get the ball rolling, but 30% pretty much ensures it will happen sooner rather than later. Therefore he's plain wrong in saying that unionization won't fit the games industry/ He's being further proved wrong even in this thread too wrt to salaries and overtime. Hell, I've been salaried in IT and have earned overtime. Lots of people do and many who don't are actually being exploited in the US. Another poster here is actively engaging Patrick (the guy who wrote the article which I still wonder to myself - did you read it?) on that very issue right now and clearly, overtime is part of the salaried wage in the US, though their are exemptions but they don't all apply automatically to the games industry or its employees (therefore making Michael Pachter's statements wrong regarding overtime). Which leads to core of the matter itself - he keeps talking as if Team Bondi are American. They aren't. They are Australian. So even IF he was correct in his knowledge of the games industry and the employment laws which apply to it in the US the fact remains that he incorrectly applied said US standards and practices to an Australian company which trades and lives by Australian legal standards and not those of the US.

Now, you keep making a big deal about how clever and important he is, so then it would only stand to reason that a clever and important man whose job it is to advise other clever and important people how to wisely invest and spend their money would be well aware of these salient facts. He is. He just chooses to make incorrect statements and twist words so that people like you who see <<HE ADVISES INVESTORS>> will take his word as the Gospel Truth when it really isn't. He's a shill. He's shilling right now and you're wetting your lips over snake oil. Hope it tastes nice but for the rest of us who are informed and don't want to see this industry or its creative, talented workers go to hell we'd rather that IF we have to hear from the Michael Pachters of the world that they are kept in check and aren't allowed to lie without redress to the public at large.

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VisariLoyalist

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You might say overtime pay is dead on arrival... I love Patrick's work

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Wolverine

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Pachter obviously doesn't believe in worker's rights.

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@Wolverine said:

Pachter obviously doesn't believe in worker's rights.

Straw man.
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Enigma777

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@SeriouslyNow: I see you love making friends wherever you go.

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SeriouslyNow

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@Enigma777 said:

@SeriouslyNow: I see you love making friends wherever you go.

I'm a Jew. You avatar offends me. Other than that I think you're ok.

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@Coreymw: QA work is awful, man. You have to play the same busted game for months and months, for long hours and write detailed descriptions of every bug and determine how to reproduce those bugs so they can be tracked down. Games don't always start out fun, and by the time they are, you may well be sick of them. But hey, if you just want to be in the games industry, and you can't code, produce art, or do good design, then go for it. There are a lot of QA listings out there.

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@spazmaster666 said:

A much better read than the bombastic tirades that I've read in the forums. The thing about Pachter that a lot of people don't seem to get (at least this is the impression I get from reading a lot of the hate-filled comments about him around the web) is that most of the statements he makes on Pach Attack, Bonus Round, etc. are just his public/personal opinions and often have little, if anything, to do with his actual job title--which is a stock market analyst.

As Pachter has himself stated, the stocks that he covers about 20 stocks which includes the major video game publishers so that's why he knows more about the video game industry than your typical stock market analyst. But at the end of the day he's still a financial analyst, so obviously his knowledge about the video game industry is going to be mainly on the business side of things. With these facts in mind, it's pretty easy to understand why he says the things he says.

Couldn't agree more. It cracks me up when people get so pissed off when hes wrong about the Wii HD or whatever. That's just his personal opinion and has nothing to do with his job. Saying that he dosen't deserve his job because he is wrong the majority of the time is just ridiculous. And for all the people saying that he dosent work long hours, you obviously have no idea how much time and hard work it takes to get to his position. Even if he only works 50 to 60 hours a week now, I guarantee you he was working 70 to 80 hours a week to move up and get that job.

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Because of the geographic range, you're just as likely to have the tone of a workplace set by the country you're working in, as well as the specific company culture you have. Some countries don't allow for uncompensated overtime, so you set the standard there by which everyone has to compete.  Workers in those countries know what they're getting into and have the right to balk, so management is encouraged to plan out a strategy that fits worker expectations, rather than switching from employee attract mode to the whip.
 
And yes, you wear out your teams with extended crunch. Maybe some people can handle it, but whether or not you care about statistics, exhaustion leads to mistakes and inefficiency. You're shooting yourself in the foot with an back-ended, absolute release date workload.

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Patrick, overtime rules are set by law and vary from country to country.  Bondi wasn't even in the US, but let's assume that you intended to talk about US overtime laws. Being a salaried employee alone is not enough to be exempt from the overtime pay provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act.
 
In Australia there are different sets of rules that covered Bondi during the time LA Noire was being developed (one up to December 31, 2009 and one starting from January 1, 2010).
 
Anyway, glossing over, thought I'd point it out.

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SockLobster

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Can't wait till there are some games for you all to write about.

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----

  • Programmers: $85,733
  • Artists and Animators: $71,354
  • Game Designers: $70,223
  • Producers: $88,544
  • Audio Professionals: $68,088
  • QA Testers: $49,009
The overall average? $72,158, definitely above $60,000.
----
Patrick, I calculated the mean of the six salaries you quoted and hoped it wouldn't be 72,158, but it was.
That's not the average salary for the "games industry" - that's the average of those six different positions. You didn't weigh it at all. That number is assuming that there are exactly equal amounts of programmers, artists & animators, game designers, producers and audio professionals. You're also assuming those are the only positions that exist.
 
Don't hurt the numbers, please...
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If unionizing means happier developers, then I'm all for it. Higher paid and better treated devs will make more compelling games.

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Great story, again. But I think you should be careful,v talking about proving and disproving things, especially if you only look at one survey. Also when Pachter say "often over 100k", then he doesn't refer to the averages, just that it is a distinct possibility to earn over 100k in the video gaming business ;)

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deactivated-57d3a53d23027

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When you joined the team they said you weren't going to talk business... liars ;)

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It amazes me that people still actually take anything Pachter says seriously. Why are people still giving this guy attention? He's an idiot who seems to have a limited grasp of economics and an even smaller grasp of video game knowledge.

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Ask big business in the entertainment industry why they only fund 'sure things.'

As most of you are probably aware, AAA titles aren't cheap to make. Unionizing would balloon those costs to preventative sums. If you love playing indie titles, and only want to play major titles with 3's and 4's proceeding their names: by all means unionize.

And those 'average salaries' would appear to be for senior level positions.

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Game developers don't need more government regulation or unionization. What they need is exactly what is happening now: total exposure of work practices to the consumer. Now if only video game consumers will use their money to tell the businesses what to do. As long as people shop at several unnamed corporations, the exploitation of third-world countries will continue.
 
I believe that an industry like game development is the only one in which unionization could even come close to working. That is simply because the interpersonal infrastructure is so entangled as to expose all useless employees. Unfortunately, those heavily involved in the union organization are nearly always so far removed from the actual work practices as to be damaging to both the employer and employee. 
 
$60 for a single copy of a game that took four years from conception to end of development is very little to pay, but with unionization that cost will sky-rocket.

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I'm actually fairly sure in most states even salaried employees are covered by OT rules. They can't be made to work infinite hours. 
 
And Pach is quite progressive. He just isn't a pro-union progressive.

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@PandaBear said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@OneManX said:

@warxsnake said:

@mbr said:

This shill should stop commenting on other peoples jobs when he has one of the most bullshit jobs in the world.

A thousand times this.

He does it poorly too. He said on his show that BFBC2 PC sold "probably" 10% of total sales, which he "guessed" was around 8million.

A 5 minute google search indicates that BFBC2 has sold over 9.5million, and the PC having 3.2million users (PS3 around 2.7 and XBox around 3.5) means it more aorund 30% of overall sales.

I stopped watching his dumb show after that, because I can assume as well as him, and when research is needed, at least I actually do it.

You do understand what he is paid to do right?

He is basically asked to make predictions and pretty much guess what stocks will go up and down. And he can only do that by following current trends and going from there. Sometimes he is wrong, sometimes he is right, that is the gamble of going into the stock market. I dont see how Pachter is different from all the other ones that we see on (name your 24/7 news channel of choice here) The only different here is that Pachter is well known in the games industry

He isn't paid to overtly quash the rights of the workers who create games in public by deliberately misconstruing employment laws and standards, mix them with a passionate desire of a lot of his audience to enter the industry and then tell blatant lies.

Or maybe he is.

He's an analyst at a company that ranks consistently in Forbes Magazine and The Wall Street Journal top 10 for analysing various technology and consumer product markets. Last year in Forbes they Wedbush Securities were ranked 1 analyst for computer software and services ... the point is INVESTORS, as in the people who invest money in companies, listen to him. You wanna know where the money for big AAA games come from? Big publicly traded companies rely on investors and investors turn to guys like this. You don't have to like him, but his opinion, like it or not, matters to important people.

This is exactly right. With all of the credentials you just mentioned, along with fact that he has a job where INVESTORS pay him, and continue to pay him, to provide them with advice. He would not have this position if he was doing a bad job. He also would not have a show called "Pach Attack", and you would not even know who he was if he was bad at his job. He gets paid to do what ell of you do for free, so think about who is in a better position to make assessments, him or you.