Junction Point, the Studio Behind Disney Epic Mickey, Is No More

@whitespider: Watch his master classes that he did at University of Texas, it really shows where his passion is and the man has still "got it".

Even one of the early concepts for Epic Mickey at JP was far more inline with something we'd like then what was released.

JPs demise was Disney through and through.

Warren is a family man, I respect that. However he let it his "pass it down to the children" approach cloud his originality and creativity. In my opinion.

A lot of people change their views on things as they have children, and that's great. However I refuse to accept that someone in their 40's, 50's or even 60's has to become more submissive or passive in their driving force.

A lot of people say that a certain period in their 20's, or 30's is their personal 'peak' - and I really don't think that has to be true at all. I think with enough effort, and provided that health does not get in the way - someone can make pretty much any period "their peak".

I am approaching 30, and I have to fight to keep my outlooks ambitious. (Just went to film school). Yet it's definitely something worth fighting FOR. Come back warren. I missed you. Show me something new and contemporary. Show me something groundbreaking.

Don't make a game for your children, make a game for YOU. And if they are one in the same, then try and get in touch with the YOU again.

this kind of surprises me. i guess the disney brand can't sell EVERYTHING. wonder what spector has ahead of him...though i think he's not going to get involved with too many violent games

Feel sorry for Warren he comes across as such a great guy and he loves Disney, but the games just didn't perform.

The gulf between what Epic Mickey could have been (should have been) and what we got is really depressing. I'm not a game designer and even I know that in 2010 you don't design a game with a limited number of lives that punishes a player for not adapting to poor controls.

It sucks. I want a do over.

Not surprising, but still very sad. I really hope the employees find some new homes.

Hoping for another Deus Ex calibre kind of game by Warren in the future.

This past console generation has slowly pushed most of the also-ran AAA developers out of the conventional genres. The folks who tried to make a 1st person military shooter that wasn't CoD, a character action game that wasn't Mario or Zelda, or an MMO that wasn't WoW mostly got burned really badly for attempting it.

Epic Mickey wasn't the right kind of game for me, and neither was Darksiders. Even so, it's sad to see any promising new franchise get out-competed.

The next generation machines will sort out some of this industry malaise. The end of the cycle is always the best time for an enthusiast to play the most polished games, but the worst time for the industry trying to sell them.

Sad but not surprising. Epic Mickey 2 made 75% less than the first game and it was available on more platforms. Epic Mickey 1 performed well enough to earn a sequel but you can't expect Disney to keep pouring money into a failing franchise when they have other options. If the studio existed purely for Epic Mickey games, then its closing was inevitable.

Don't know if the big audience would've enjoyed American McGee's level of twistedness any better in the end, but I certainly would've bought it. Or well, If I would own a Wii, that is...

My best to everybody put out of a job by this decision. It's unfortunate that so many closures of one sort or another have been happening so recently, but hopefully everyone will land on their feet.

Make shitty games - go out of business.

What a scoop!

This is what happens when the games you make simply aren't good enough. I really wish Epic Mickey had been something special, but it wasn't. I hope everybody involved goes on to greater things.

@Shaunage said:

This seems to be a really bad time to make video games. Can you imagine if a company in Hollywood closed every single time a movie wasn't a big hit?

Yeah. And to think, the media's braying for new hardware so it can be even more expensive to make games.

Granted, Disney was never a good publisher and likely never will be (yeah, they had some good games, but never stuck behind them), and THQ made some really crap decisions (uDraw and Red Faction: Armageddon among them), but we're only going to have two or three game publishers soon, with no cheapening of the costs of production in sight to allow for non-major publishing the way we see with film.

You mean I won't get to hear people hem and haw struggling to give another lackluster Epic Mickey iteration a pass because it should be great since one guy's name is on it and it once had some interesting concept art?

Aww...

This seems to be a really bad time to make video games. Can you imagine if a company in Hollywood closed every single time a movie wasn't a big hit?

Given how disappointing Epic Mickey 2's sales were, this is not very surprising. I think it sold 250k at launch vs. the original's 1.5 million (and the sequel was on more platforms, ouch). I guess a lot of people bought into the hype and were burned the first time around and were not willing to give the second one a chance. I can't say I didn't see that coming nor was it undeservedly panned, but its always sad to see a bunch of people lose their jobs in such a competitive, thankless industry.

@umdesch4 said:

@iAmJohn said:

but Epic Mickey is a game that sold a million and a half fucking units in its first month and Disney still called it a disappointment.

1.5 million sales on a Wii exclusive? Geez, that's pretty amazing. How much better could they possibly have expected it to sell? That's ridiculous. For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games

2 million according to that list...

I still want a game that looks like that concept art.

@Thiefsie said:

@arimajinn said:

Remember when Warren Spector used to make good games?

Not really... he was a name on Deus Ex, System Shock and Thief and from what I can ascertain the other big names behind those either were largely responsible or much better at building upon those foundations to make great games... ala Dishonoured and Bioshock.

You must be young...

@evanbower said:

@LikeaSsur said:

@evanbower said:

@Bourbon_Warrior

Make better games, this is how capitalism works we can't have a cry each time a developer that isn't profitable goes down.

Yeah. The best stuff is, without fail, always the most profitable. If you guys need me ill be watching Transformers and listening to Justin Bieber while I enjoy a Big Mac and Coke.

Hyperbole isn't necessary. The Beatles, Playstation 2, Skyrim, Inception, and a lot of other things are both good and financially successful.

Certainly. Take all of our examples together though and we can at least say the idea that "if your product is of high quality, capitalism will allow it to survive" is not a reliable rule. Not that I think the Epic Mickey franchise was some under-appreciated gem, just that what @Bourbon_Warrior said was a poor explanation for their failure.

Despite this article saying Epic Mickey's first game was unsuccessful it is quite untrue, it sold 1.3 million in USA alone and that was a Wii exclusive, Epic Mickey 2 sold around 300,000 by the end of 2012 and that is available on PS3, 360, Wii, Wii U, PC and Mac.

So either the first Epic Mickey wasn't well received by the consumer which led to the bad sales of the sequel or maybe it was the publishers fault for pushing it out during the Royal Rumble of November, maybe the publisher rushed it out the door to make the Wii U launch, which if history tells us anything, even the most mediocre games can sell alot along side a console launch, which also makes this astonishing how low the sales numbers are.

Epic Mickey 2 was also a 3D platformer, a genre that just doesn't sell well anymore, the first probably sold alright because of nostalgia using Mickey Mouse plus it was a Wii exclusive, in a time where really the only Wii exclusives were Nintendo developed games, shitty motion controlled games or Japanese RPG's that don't sell well in America, also it had the name Warren Spector attached to it, which many informed gamers know as a game producer that has produced quality titles in his career, so a dark Mickey Mouse game developed by a Warren Spector studio sounded fantastic on paper.

Another way of looking at it is the Metacritic score, Epic Mickey 1 has a Metacritic score of 73, Epic Mickey 2 has an score between the lowest being the Wii U version of 56 to the highest score being on the Wii of 64 on the Wii U, so the critics have said this wasn't a great game, we are a more informed consumer these days, we will not buy a game just because the back of the box looks cool and the consumer told Junction Point that with their wallet.

Joystiq has a post stating that Epic Mickey 2 only sold 529,000 units in November and December. Considering the cost of development and marketing (and hubris on Disney's part). That is a disastrous number.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/01/29/epic-mickey-2-sales-at-529-in-us/

Another day, another studio closure...

What a shame. The Epic Mickey games are a good concept but the gameplay is flawed in my opinion. All the best to Warren Spector and his talented team at Junction Point.

@iAmJohn: I think you hit the nail on the head here: "You have to wonder who thought it was a good fucking idea to spend that much money on a Wii exclusive released in 2010." This is another example of folks who do not pay any attention to the video game industry making bad decisions then poorly managing a developer. Really makes me wonder if 'Infinity' is going to be any good.

@spraynardtatum: @spraynardtatum said:

Why do they even name these developers anymore?

Yeah. Junction Point? Surely we can be blander and more abstract yet cheekily on the nose than that. Why not 'Commercial Artistic Concepts Ltd' or 'Game Content Production Group Inc' ?

Not surprising, unfortunately.

Epic Mickey 1 I enjoyed. It was a little flawed, but still had alot of interesting ideas and was a lot of fun to play through I thought. EM2 was just a giant step back in every way. Completely mediocre, cant believe it was the same team. And it sold just as poorly as it was reviewed. Same goes for the awlful 3DS game. 2 major critical and commerical bombs that your company has poured all your resources into and your gonna get a studio closure.

Why do they even name these developers anymore?

@arimajinn said:

Remember when Warren Spector used to make good games?

Not really... he was a name on Deus Ex, System Shock and Thief and from what I can ascertain the other big names behind those either were largely responsible or much better at building upon those foundations to make great games... ala Dishonoured and Bioshock.

I NEVER liked the Disneyland gone wild concept. I always wanted to see old cartoons made twisted, not the theme park.

@Baltimore said:

@iAmJohn: I agree that there is quite a bit of hubris on the part of Disney in this situation. I would bet they were suspecting that they games would sell much better considering they star Mickey. But we have to face facts, both games were bad. And the second game sold terribly. Disney most likely had projections for how well the game needed to do in order to bet profitable. The game most likely didn't meet those projections and for a company as hit driven as Disney it was better for them to drop it.

Another factor is from a PR angle. Both games scored pretty low on Metacritic and GameRankings. Also, both games saw a high trade-in rate at Gamestop. So slammed by both the press, fans and the general media could NOT have helped matters.

Oh absolutely. Let me be clear here: I'm in no way trying to absolve Junction Point of any blame. They were given cart blanche for that first game and made something with a bunch of cool ideas buried under mediocre to bad execution. And when given a second chance, they managed to make a game that looks to be even worse and couldn't even trick people into buying it this time. The quality of Epic Mickey is all on Junction Point in that regard. I just think it really needs to be stated just how much blame Disney needs to shoulder here for mismanaging their games division and allowing catastrophes like this to happen.

And really, you have to start from the start with that, and for me that start is in Epic Mickey being a disappointment at over a million sales. It sold better than it had any right to, and yet Disney still wasn't happy. They did the obvious mistake that basically every media company that has tried to get into games has made in thinking that they can spend a lot of money and make it all back quickly and easily just because of who they are--if Nintendo is the Disney of video games, then surely we can come in and succeed at being that by actually being Disney!--and they lost. You have to wonder who thought it was a good fucking idea to spend that much money on a Wii exclusive released in 2010 if they had to sell more than fucktons to be happy. And yet they still greenlit a sequel, in spite of games being notoriously difficult to sell sequels for when the first game is poorly received... except they gave Junction Point less than two years to make it when they had to fix core issues inherent to that game's design and engine, and come up with all new story and environments and all that musical stuff, and make versions for other consoles. To put it another way, they gave Junction Point an unrealistic order and then got angry when they couldn't fulfill it. (If they were actually serious about Epic Mickey, they should have waited for the next consoles and actually given Junction Point the time to fix those issues and get some distance between the sequel and the poor reputation of the first game, but that's another argument.) It's complete backwards logic, and yet Disney did it anyway and Junction Point had to pay the price.

I think it would be one thing if it was just Junction Point that got screwed like that. But Disney has a history of doing that to its teams, as do many of the media empires that get involved in games when they don't understand the industry (sup, MTV Games?). And for that reason, fuck them.

I'd like to see Warren Spector work on an original IP. The guy has made some great games in the past and I think he will flourish again given the chance to express his creativity

The second game didn't seem to work given what I saw in the GB Quick look The first game doing low, but okay sales allowed the second to come out; but at the point Junction Point needed to come out on time and with polished title. They didn't do that.

I think there is a lot of blame to go around, but there is also a ton of circumstance too. First thing is, I do not think Mickey or Oswald were all that interesting. Nor, was the whole Wasteland interesting The 'world' of Wasteland was vague, sinister and really didn't gel into anything players could understand. Second, the paint brush to add or remove was interesting but was not close to what people wanted. I think a 3D adventure game with Mickey, Oswald, and the gang that was an adventure game were where Mickey was running, dashing, jumping, swinging, climbing, and sliding would have been fun. What brought the game down was the need to make those paint/thinner puzzles that just didn't work and that required a world that was weird & half finished.

@FierceDeity said:

No, marketing and advertisement are simply a means of disseminating information. Surely people are not so weak willed as to have their opinions, their very thoughts, shaped by such messages?

Disseminating image, not information. Marketing has lied to me plenty of times, I just happen to usually ignore it.

@Hailinel said:

@tourgen

Great.

Why.

selfish reasons. No more mouse games to hear about.

That might explain why Epic Mickey 2 just dropped $20 recently.

Also Austin isn't too far from me. This is starting to look like a rough period for video games.

@Butano said:

There go my dreams of Spector possibly making a Ducktales game.....

Agreed.

It's always bad to hear about situations like this, but in this case I think there isn't a whole lot to the story that is unjust, at least from the outside. The studio, which had a lot of employees to pay for, made two games that both weren't very good, and didn't sell very well. They therefore went out of business. I wish the best of luck to those affected that they find situations more suited to them.

@Twinsun said:

I gotta say, I don't get why Warren Spector isn't called out more for how bad both of the Epic Mickey games were, he helped hype the hell of out them, and in the end delivered a subpar product, yet I hardly see anyone calling him out on it.

Which me questions his status as a gaming legend. Deus Ex was great but how much of that greatness did he contribute to?

Christ! It's a massacre out there in dev/publisher land.

I gotta say, I don't get why Warren Spector isn't called out more for how bad both of the Epic Mickey games were, he helped hype the hell of out them, and in the end delivered a subpar product, yet I hardly see anyone calling him out on it.

@golguin said:

@MstrMnyBgs said:

@golguin said:

@FierceDeity said:

@hermes said:

@FierceDeity said:

@evanbower said:

@Bourbon_Warrior

Make better games, this is how capitalism works we can't have a cry each time a developer that isn't profitable goes down.

Yeah. The best stuff is, without fail, always the most profitable. If you guys need me ill be watching Transformers and listening to Justin Bieber while I enjoy a Big Mac and Coke.

You have your opinions, and I have mine. Capitalism takes all of our purchasing decisions into consideration. So some people like music you don't like, eat food you don't like, or watch movies you don't like. It doesn't make their opinions any less valid.

You might be unfamiliar with the concepts of marketing and advertisement which are, by definition, forms to influence public opinions; and quite often, more responsible for sales than quality.

No, marketing and advertisement are simply a means of disseminating information. Surely people are not so weak willed as to have their opinions, their very thoughts, shaped by such messages?

Are you serious? Even with my little Marketing Management minor I can tell you that everything is about shaping public opinion about a product. As a Graphic Designer I can guarantee that designs are made a particular way to catch the eye and attract attention despite the quality of the actual product.

I think his point was that they do help push people in a certain direction, but they don't make the decisions for us. We still make the conscious decision to consume product A, even if it is assisted by subliminal things via marketing and what not.

I was responding to the idea that "Surely people are not so weak willed as to have their opinions, their very thoughts, shaped by such messages?" and asserting that it is exactly what it does. Even thinking that a buying decision is entirely your own conscious decision isn't giving enough credit to the subconscious effects that good marketing can produce.

Keep in mind that the more information a consumer knows about a product the more likely they are to resists the effects of marketing. People who come to this website for example wont fall as easily to video game marketing campaigns as the general public. However, how many people do you see jumping on the hype train after a nice trailer comes out for X game?

Isn't the point here that the games couldn't live up to whatever hype there was? There were plenty of marketing-based, anticipatory sales for Epic Mickey 1. Hell, I bought it. But once people realized that it wasn't the best game, nothing could make them line up for the second chapter.

Marketing can, for sure, influence opinions, but it can't create a reality. People aren't going to KEEP going to McDonald's and listening to Justin Bieber because of some ad campaign - that can only get them in the door initially.

I think the real misstep here was a game design/subject material blunder. They made a series of games about characters that no one in their target demographic remembers. They made a game about 1920's Disney nostalgia and they made it for little kids. It was a schizophrenic concept from the start.

@iAmJohn: I agree that there is quite a bit of hubris on the part of Disney in this situation. I would bet they were suspecting that they games would sell much better considering they star Mickey. But we have to face facts, both games were bad. And the second game sold terribly. Disney most likely had projections for how well the game needed to do in order to bet profitable. The game most likely didn't meet those projections and for a company as hit driven as Disney it was better for them to drop it.

Another factor is from a PR angle. Both games scored pretty low on Metacritic and GameRankings. Also, both games saw a high trade-in rate at Gamestop. So slammed by both the press, fans and the general media could NOT have helped matters.

There go my dreams of Spector possibly making a Ducktales game.....

well shit... Maybe Disney is putting all their money on Infinity and getting rid of these guys means more money. Sad to see how this stuff works, feels like something is shutting down each week now.

Are we surprised?

I gave Junction Point a chance when I spent money on the first game which was not perfect, but I was willing to give it a shot.

They won't be getting my money a second time.

The upheaval of studios of the last couple of years has been absolutely brutal. This sort of thing is exactly why I didn't try to break into the industry after getting my degree in Comp Sci: Computer Game Design. Regular software development might not be nearly as exciting, but it's certainly much more stable. For the moment, I'm content to make that tradeoff.

I really hope the industry settles down. It must be devastating to have to tear up your stakes every few years when another studio goes under.

Fucking hell. This is shaping up to be a really crappy year for Austin.

@MstrMnyBgs said:

@golguin said:

@FierceDeity said:

@hermes said:

@FierceDeity said:

@evanbower said:

@Bourbon_Warrior

Make better games, this is how capitalism works we can't have a cry each time a developer that isn't profitable goes down.

Yeah. The best stuff is, without fail, always the most profitable. If you guys need me ill be watching Transformers and listening to Justin Bieber while I enjoy a Big Mac and Coke.

You have your opinions, and I have mine. Capitalism takes all of our purchasing decisions into consideration. So some people like music you don't like, eat food you don't like, or watch movies you don't like. It doesn't make their opinions any less valid.

You might be unfamiliar with the concepts of marketing and advertisement which are, by definition, forms to influence public opinions; and quite often, more responsible for sales than quality.

No, marketing and advertisement are simply a means of disseminating information. Surely people are not so weak willed as to have their opinions, their very thoughts, shaped by such messages?

Are you serious? Even with my little Marketing Management minor I can tell you that everything is about shaping public opinion about a product. As a Graphic Designer I can guarantee that designs are made a particular way to catch the eye and attract attention despite the quality of the actual product.

I think his point was that they do help push people in a certain direction, but they don't make the decisions for us. We still make the conscious decision to consume product A, even if it is assisted by subliminal things via marketing and what not.

I was responding to the idea that "Surely people are not so weak willed as to have their opinions, their very thoughts, shaped by such messages?" and asserting that it is exactly what it does. Even thinking that a buying decision is entirely your own conscious decision isn't giving enough credit to the subconscious effects that good marketing can produce.

Keep in mind that the more information a consumer knows about a product the more likely they are to resists the effects of marketing. People who come to this website for example wont fall as easily to video game marketing campaigns as the general public. However, how many people do you see jumping on the hype train after a nice trailer comes out for X game?