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Kinect Died in the Uncanny Valley

It's not over for Kinect on Xbox One, but how we reached this moment might have been signaled a long, long time ago.

If Kinect suffers a slow death because of this week's news, it won't be Kinect's fault.

No Caption Provided

With Microsoft's announcement that consumers can now purchase Xbox One without a Kinect bundled in every package, it hasn't killed the device's prospects, but it's certainly tempered them. Fantasia is looking pretty great, and I suspect we'll see some other Kinect games at next month's E3.

But the news bums me out. I've always liked Kinect, warts 'n all. Most of Kinect's problems haven't been the result of shoddy technology. It's because designers keep asking the technology to accomplish tasks it's not very good at, and would likely never be very good at. This is partially Microsoft's fault. It planted the wrong seeds into the minds of developers, and only a few realized Microsoft was sending the wrong message as soon as the product was announced.

I was an early champion of the Wii, and the same was true for Kinect. I've spent years playing games with controllers, but the concept of interacting with games on a physical level, echoing a large part of my youth, has always been a tantalizing prospect. In the past 10 years, it seemed like games were heading in that direction.

Let's rewind to the original announcement for Kinect, back when it was called Project Natal in 2009. This was the same year director Steven Spielberg came on stage to tell us how excited he was about gaming.

There are several theoretical uses for Kinect in this video: becoming a kung-fu master, piloting a steering wheel in a race car, swinging a monster's arms around while destroying a city, fully controlling a soccer player, riding a skateboard, hitting an imaginary button in a game show. There's a common thread between these ideas, and it's that Kinect can replicate reality. There's one-to-one interaction between player and technology.

Microsoft's premise argues motion control can replace the controllers that we're used to. The subtext is that controllers, compared to Kinect, are an inferior form of interaction. The company's "you are the controller" message underscored this. In reality, Microsoft had it backwards. Motion control technology, at least as it exists now and for the foreseeable future, is not great at replacing what controllers are good at, but it's fantastic at replicating a form of reality. Only a few developers actually realized this was the true potential behind Kinect.

I'd call this the uncanny valley problem in motion control form.

The uncanny valley is when technology is able to almost mimic reality. You know, like this:

(Photo Credit: Getty Images)
(Photo Credit: Getty Images)

Hold me.

When Project Natal became Kinect in 2010 and Microsoft unveiled the first wave of games to use the hardware, there was a clear standout: Dance Central. It's easy to credit some of the runaway success Kinect experienced (more than 24 million units sold as an accessory--not bad at all) to Harmonix's dancing game. Dance Central wasn't about mimicking reality. It's easy to imagine another developer making a dance game using a camera capable of tracking your skeleton would have your dance moves replicated on-screen. Dance Central smartly took Kinect's limitations at face value and found a way to leverage what it was capable of.

We already have a pretty good idea how that might have turned out:

Compare that to Wii Sports from a few years earlier, an inspiration for Kinect. I didn't love playing tennis or bowling because the motion fidelity in Wii Sports realistically recreated what it was based on, I loved them because in a very video game-y way, it approximated the experience in the pursuit of fun. It felt like tennis and bowling. Wii Sports may have been designed that way due to technological limitations, but it was a better experience. The march of technology can often blind us to the advantages of having rules and barriers.

Johann Sebastian Joust designer Doug Wilson was talking about this on Twitter recently:

[1/2] Bummed to see people /celebrate/ the death of Kinect. Yes, Microsoft botched it massively, but physical play is important, and fun.

— Douglas Wilson (@doougle) May 13, 2014

[2/2] For example: Dance Dance Revolution remains one of *the* most flat-out FUN games ever made. Still so hungry for those kinds of games.

— Douglas Wilson (@doougle) May 13, 2014

[1/2] Also, if you're looking for "higher fidelity tech" to rescue motion control gaming, you fundamentally misunderstand physical play.

— Douglas Wilson (@doougle) May 14, 2014

[2/2] The core problem w/ the Kinect was NOT the tech itself, but a lack of studios who "got" how to subvert the constraints.

— Douglas Wilson (@doougle) May 14, 2014

Microsoft wanted Kinect to be something more than it was. It overpromised. Developers didn't course correct and take advantage of Kinect's strengths, they kept playing into its flaws. This developed into a narrative that Kinect was flawed. While I won't argue it's perfect, the problems have more to do with how it was used.

One of Kinect's most promising moments on Xbox 360 was Double Fine's Happy Action Theater. You know what Happy Action Theater does? It doesn't give a shit about Kinect's inability to properly track you. Instead, the designers incorporated the fuzzy nature of the technology into the aesthetic, and encouraged players to be subversive through design. Happy Action Theater relishes and indulges in Kinect's quirks.

It should have signaled a new way forward with designing Kinect games on Xbox One. Embrace what the device is, rather than pretending it's something else. Instead, Microsoft decided it would try the same thing all over again. See: Kinect Sports Rivals, which seemingly came and went without anyone taking notice.

At least we got this out of it.

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It's not a huge surprise AAA game developers would target realism over and over again. We see that all the time in genres that have nothing to do with motion controls. What's more frustrating is how little Microsoft allowed independent creators to go wild with Kinect. Imagine if Microsoft had opened up Kinect to its independent scene on Xbox Live Indie Games. Imagine if Microsoft tried to do something like that with Kinect Fun Labs, a failed experiment almost nobody remembers because, once again, Kinect was exclusive to bigger developers. Imagine if Microsoft had created a publishing fund that encouraged creatives to try their hands at Kinect development. Instead, we were mostly left with what Microsoft backed and lots of fitness games.

Imagine.

We've seen people do amazing things with Kinect. How come none of this creativity translated to games?

Based on the conversations I've had with developers over the years, it's not for lack of trying. There were evangelists within the company who wanted to see Kinect achieve more, developers who wanted o try, but there was a very specific vision for what Kinect should be, and being more "open" wasn't part of that.

There's little surprise, then, that the most inventive use of Kinect in years, Fru, came from an independent developer. In Fru, players use their body to unmask hidden platforms, and use a controller to move a character around. Like Happy Action Theater, it's not concerned with absolute accuracy and embraces its imprecisions. The developers told me at GDC that they're building a new version for Kinect on Xbox One. Microsoft's takeaway should be to find ways to generate way awesome experiments like this. There's no sign of that.

It's sad. It's really sad. And that's without acknowledging how Microsoft has systematically dismantled almost every piece of its new hardware platform that was supposed to make it different. I don't know what the future holds for Kinect, but accessories in games don't have a particularly great track record, and it's not like Kinect on Xbox One has been at the center of the conversation around Microsoft's new machine. I suspect it will continue to be part of the interface, and we'll see some token games funded by Microsoft a few times per year.

It's probably too late now, but it's nice to dream. It could have been different.

Sorry, Kinect. It wasn't your fault.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

190 Comments

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EXTomar

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Edited By EXTomar

I've always thought and held the belief that Kinect was misguided as technology for a console. Instead it should have been technology for things like TV. Imagine if your TV showed you "here are the three active inputs" where you could either point or give an audio cue and it would switch to it. Or it notices no one is actually in front of the TV for 15 minutes starts the process of turning itself off. Or it notices that you had a phone call that issues "mute" and "pause" (if it can). Simple tasks with direct results.

Trying to make it a complex interface into a complex environment and do complex things is what lead to it never working quite correctly in many common situations.

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rmanthorp

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rmanthorp  Moderator

Kinect still makes the best quicklooks. I thank it for that.

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TowerSixteen

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@jman240 said:

I... don't think this has anything to do with the uncanny valley, Patrick. I think you make good points aside from that, but the uncanny valley is really just meant to refer to the area between reality and what we can make - in which something is disturbing to a portion of an audience because of what it's missing despite looking so close to human. So the Japanese head robots are, but developers inability to make use of kinect properly wouldn't fall into the uncanny valley. [...]

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. Uncanny valley has a pretty specific meaning, and this isn't it.

It actually does, in that it it the same type of phenomenon applied to kinesthetic and spatial perceptions rather than purely visual perceptions. Here's a better explanation: Extra Credits: Kinect Disconnect

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nightriff

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Really good read Patrick, while I was never a fan of Kinect as a "hardcore" platform because it wasn't, they few times where it was just friends/family and I messing around in front of it was a lot of fun. It probably should've been something more than what it turned out to be but it really hurt Microsoft to include the Kinect with the XBONE.

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JasonMrazMtaz

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Another great piece, Patrick. Your points are dead on.

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EXTomar

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Edited By EXTomar

The "uncanny valley" thing applies. Jumping up and down in your living room miming running in an effort to convey to the device "I am running" is definitely "uncanny valley". A bunch of what you are doing is completely fake and the sensation that it is all phoney is increased by interacting with it. Their attempt and striving to become "more accurate" just enhanced how fake it was.

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Oy

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Great article. In my opinion Kinect will either live or die on June 9th. Maybe a VR solution is coming. Maybe they will show how the world can turn their Xboxes into Dev Kits and open up Kinect. Or maybe they will really just let it die.

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Kubertus

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I think the Kinect is a bit like the Virtual Boy, solid idea but shitty execution. Maybe in a few years it will be resurracted like they with the Oculus Rift and everybody will love it.

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LibrorumProhibitorum

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Almost unrelated to the article, but wow I forgotten how much I hate families in those new technology trailers. Nobody behaves like a human being in them.

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tourgen

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Edited By tourgen

latency killed the kinect

even the latency in the voice processing is god awful

the actual skeletal tracking was pretty cool in the right conditions. and you know, if you didn't care about it lagging behind your actual movements substantially.

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deactivated-646e7f440ab1b

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I don't think you pilot steering wheels, Patrick.

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spraynardtatum

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I think the Kinect could be cool.....if it didn't have horrible 'terms & conditions', disgusting future ad techniques, a huge part in the next presidential campaigning on xbox, and it worked as advertised.

The last think Microsoft cared about when it was bundled was using it for gaming. That's the problem with Kinect.

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InternetDetective

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They never supported that fuckin thing. Making you buy it isn't the same as supporting it. You want the kinect to catch on? Well you have to make fun games for it.

Lots of fun games.

Not 2 fun games, lots of games.

Navigating on the xbox 360 with my Kinect was never fun or an improvement over the controller so why would I use that? The only cool thing I used my Kinect for was pausing/playing movies on Netflix. "XBOX PAUSE"

Also I don't blame Microsoft for making sound changes to the way they are selling the xbox one. It is full of spiders and the spiders are on fire, plus it's more expensive than it's competitor. Make those changes, sell more units.

Have you guys seen that Hero Cat video? That shit is bananas!

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DeathSandwich

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The Kinect and Kinect 2 was an interesting and potentially useful piece of technology, just not for video games. If Microsoft wasn't so insistent on crowbarring it into the X-Box platform and instead marketed it for other uses (see here: http://news.dice.com/2014/02/03/south-koreans-using-kinect-to-monitor-dmz/ for hacked kinects being used to monitor the South Korean DMZ) there would be a lot less heartache over it. As is there were a not insignificant amount of people for whom (perhaps incorrectly) figured that the Kinect was just a window for the NSA to look into their lives and that it was always going to be on and listening to you even after Microsoft's "Kinect always has to be plugged in" 180 last year .

Having said that, I can't get behind Patrick in part blaming the developers for the lack of Kinect appeal. In order for any controller (be it a physical controller or kinect/move/wiimote motion sensor) to work and not be frustrating it has to be responsive to your input and do so very quickly. The Kinect failed on both counts; See Jeff's TV control video back when the Xbox one was first released for the example of that. If you have voice commands and you have to tell it to do something more than once to have it understand you regularly, it's frustrating to deal with. I've got Microsoft Sync in my car and I get super frustrated with it because it has huge problems parsing albums and song names and doesn't do well with any sort of natural voice recognition.

Developers didn't fail the Kinect. Customers didn't fail the Kinect. Microsoft absolutely failed the Kinect. If this was suppose to be such a revolutionary step above the Kinect 1, then the whole X-Box package got released a year too early because the software didn't support it in the ways it should of. For example: Why does the Kinect need to be an IR blaster for your TV when every TV and cable box made in the last 5 years supports HDMI CEC and could receive commands from the XBox over the HDMI line and vice versa?

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galacticgravy

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I'm glad my Xbox One came with one. I never would have bought it without it being included. The mic functions are a game changer for me. I still try to talk to my phone to make it play music or call someone without hitting a button. I really like game show games, and I really want to see a Wheel of Fortune or Jeopardy game that I can yell answers at.

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Fawkes

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[1/2] Also, if you're looking for "higher fidelity tech" to rescue motion control gaming, you fundamentally misunderstand physical play.

— Douglas Wilson (@doougle) May 14, 2014

This statement sounds like it is saying things are supposed to be wonky and the action on screen is supposed to be disjointed from the actions in the real world. If that is the case then I'll be glad when the Kinect is completely dead and buried. I have no interest in lowering my expectations for video game controls to a point where it doesn't matter if the game does what I want it to.

Oddly enough, the Kinect is what brought me to Giant Bomb in the first place. Someone gave me a link to the livestream they were doing when it launched. Watching it reminded me of when I was a kid and I would fall in a hole in a mario game, and then turn to whoever was watching me and say "BUT I PRESSED THE JUMP BUTTON" while holding up the controller and making exaggerated button presses. Only now everyone could see that actions were being performed correctly, but the game just wasn't listening.

And I don't think you can just blame developers for Kinect games being bad. If that were the case, there would be a good Kinect game out there you could point to that got it right, and everyone who played it would agree that the controls totally worked and it wasn't crap. But I've never heard such a thing. I don't think I've even seen a piece of footage of a Kinect being used that doesn't have someone going "Xbox.... Xbox..... Xbox".

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Edited By micemoney

I just gotta say, saying "Xbox open Super Time Force" and it open the game is pretty fucking rad. It's like I'm starting up a time machine. Like others have stated, it's really the little things like that, that Kinect is cool for. Thanks for the article Patrick!

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Great article Patrick! I think it's important to note this bizarre and gaping gulf between Microsoft's expectations for the device and what it was actually good at. It's a shame the Kinect found itself helplessly trapped in the gulf between these two points. A Kinect in every box might have been something the public wanted if the messaging for the device had ever managed to re-focus on what it was good at doing. But, of course, they didn't do that, and here we are with Microsoft responding to the market's desire for a box without the $100 useless lump in it. Which is what happens when a perfectly serviceable piece of tech is incapable of doing the things you promised it would do.

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I wish Xbox would (could) stick to their guns on the Xbox One at least for the first year. I personally love the 2.0 for navigating the interface and fantasia looks cool. I hold out hope that they are going to view this as a new challenge to prove the kinect is a worthwhile purchase (as they should anyway) instead of defeat.

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Kinect games just aren't fun. I think that the designers compensate players way too much for the games to be any real fun because they don't want you to feel punished for making wrong moves. As a result, they overcompensate by making tasks too simple, or easy to accomplish. Of course with Kinect, it also can and does swing the otherway where you feel cheated by the system because you're "totally doing this right, the dumb thing just isn't picking up my movements right!" That's the problem. With a controller, the input works the same every time. With Kinect, it feels janky because you never know if it's going to properly register your movements and as a result, designers have to work around this huge flaw, best they can, by making terrible hand-holdy games.

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@grantheaslip: It's analogous enough that taking issue with it feels pedantic.

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Edited By Lurkero

Kinect is good technology, but I just don't need it.

Buttons work fine and Kinect doesn't offer enough improvement for me to want to do more than occasional voice commands (if even that).

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I agree kinect games could be fun, but microsoft cant even get the voice to work in their own menus. so how can they expect developers to get it to work? maybe next time or skip the next generation and comeback as 3in3ct and then you have a cool logo and you also get voice command to work, at least as well as my internet browser running google chrome.

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Edited By benderunit22

The thing Dance Central did right was to not show any representation of you on the screen which is the thing that leads to awkward glitches and twitchy avatars (i.e. the thing that makes Kinect quick look entertaining.)

Their characters on screen do the moves correctly, looking all cool and hip with only the high-lighting limbs signifying that you're actually looking like a buffoon. If When Kinect completely breaks during a song, you might not even notice it, you might just think "oh well, I guess my right arm wasn't quite at the angle it was supposed to."

Finally, I'd like to say, the reason why DDR is fun, is because it's buttons that fucking work when you hit them. We've given them years to prove Kinect can work reliably, yet the recent Kinect Sports QL and Patricks own voice navigation video (btw, I seen no reason why voice recognition is in any way tied to Kinect, it's a technology that has existed for years) show me it's still not at a point where I would trust it to do what I want it to.

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deactivated-6050ef4074a17

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I can't fathom how this isn't Kinect's fault. The technology just straight-up isn't good enough for anything that interests the market that's still around and willing to buy those games. Natal was introduced in 2009 and we've been through a second iteration of this tech now, and it still isn't satisfactory.

People can hold up the voice commands as the beacon of "the future" all you like, but the fact remains that you don't really need a giant shitty camera to accomplish that. The PS4 allows you to use voice commands by plugging any old microphone into the audio jack on the controller, and presto, you have "the future." Nothing fancy required. Presumably Microsoft could allow the same flexibility to their commands for those who wished to use them.

And seeing developers on twitter subtly lash out at people for being happy they no longer have to spend a lot more money on an inherently flawed device they never wanted in the first place? I just think that's childish. It shouldn't be my responsibility to prop up that market just so people can keep trying to release games year after year that turn out to still not be that interesting. The fact that consumers have basically been asked to beta test these devices for several years, over a second iteration, at our expense, and we still have so little to show for it, is bananas. Average consumers have done way, way more for that device than any developer has thusfar.

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Edited By Seppli

Good read. I haven't thought much about Kinect, but now that you made me think about it - yes, I was always fascinated by the tech demo stuff the Kinect's enthusiast crowd came up with on PC. Indeed Microsoft has failed to transport that fascination with Kinect to their Xbox consumerbase.

You encouraged me to dream about a world where-in Microsoft got the Kinect right, and I agree, that'd have been a dream worth living. Developers jamming their hearts out, and players interacting with their creations, with little interference by the big bad Xbox Man. Now I'm sad. Broken dreams. Bummer.

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Aetheldod

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No Patrick ... motion gaming has only one place and that is the grave.

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In unbundling the Kinect from the XBox One, Microsoft has acted in a way that will make any future vocal support for the device ring hollow. That undoubtedly changes the future prospects of Kinect 2.0 and kills any shot it had to be a game changer for the foreseeable future.

If Microsoft had stuck to its guns, or if the XB1 had dominated console sales, the Kinect most likely would have continued to receive the development and financial resources that it needed to reach its potential. I dont see how that happens now and its a shame.

Ill admit. Microsoft turned me off with their tough talk and multiple reversals last year. It led to me choosing a PS4 at launch and to be honest, i still have no plans to get an XBone......BUT, if they had showed the guts to stick with their vision for Kinect, and it came into its own, down the road, it may have been the reason i eventually broke down and picked up their console. Instead, Microsoft just reinforced all my biggest peeves against them. They once again spoke with the conviction of a preacher and acted with the impotence of a politician. They look dishonest or at the least, unreliable. You just cannot count on anything the company claims.

So, i am disappointed to see the Kinect be relegated to the background. It was the only part of the Xbox One that made it stand apart.....i guess we live in a world where its easier to fall in line, thats too bad.

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deerokus

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Edited By deerokus

@marokai said:

I can't fathom how this isn't Kinect's fault. The technology just straight-up isn't good enough for anything that interests the market that's still around and willing to buy those games. Natal was introduced in 2009 and we've been through a second iteration of this tech now, and it still isn't satisfactory.

People can hold up the voice commands as the beacon of "the future" all you like, but the fact remains that you don't really need a giant shitty camera to accomplish that. The PS4 allows you to use voice commands by plugging any old microphone into the audio jack on the controller, and presto, you have "the future." Nothing fancy required. Presumably Microsoft could allow the same flexibility to their commands for those who wished to use them.

And seeing developers on twitter subtly lash out at people for being happy they no longer have to spend a lot more money on an inherently flawed device they never wanted in the first place? I just think that's childish. It shouldn't be my responsibility to prop up that market just so people can keep trying to release games year after year that turn out to still not be that interesting. The fact that consumers have basically been asked to beta test these devices for several years, over a second iteration, at our expense, and we still have so little to show for it, is bananas. Average consumers have done way, way more for that device than any developer has thusfar.

I agree entirely. I will say that Kinect itself is an interesting technology with lots of potential - but not for anything particularly mass-market, and especially not remotely as a gaming device, for many (simple and obvious) reasons. Trying to sell it as a gaming device was always a non-starter.

Why has JS Joust guy not made a great must-have game for it, if he likes it so much and is bitter about people celebrating its demise? The reason is that it's a terrible gaming control method, that simply never worked properly.

And 'physical play'? Just play a sport. Far more fun and satisfying and exhilirating and rewarding than any weird indie game designed around a bad control system can ever be.

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HerbieBug

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Erm... i think this is a bit generous viewpoint of Kinect's design, true capabilities, and the games that were actually developed for it.

There are a couple things it can do okay, but the potential of those capabilities is smaller than I think you are suggesting. No matter what sort of game you are trying to make, you will eventually run in to the control fidelity problem which severely limits what you can do with your game. It's the lack thereof that ultimately sunk the Kinect for me. I never enjoy games with loosey goosey controls, no matter the input method. Just because there are certain types of games that can fudge shit controls behind forgiving input window does not excuse the shit control in the first place.

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melodiousj

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Those tweets from Doug Wilson are spot on.

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Edited By sweetz

One of Kinect's most promising moments on Xbox 360 was Double Fine's Happy Action Theater. You know what Happy Action Theater does? It doesn't give a shit about Kinect's inability to properly track you. Instead, the designers incorporated the fuzzy nature of the technology into the aesthetic, and encouraged players to be subversive through design. Happy Action Theater relishes and indulges in Kinect's quirks.

It should have signaled a new way forward with designing Kinect games on Xbox One. Embrace what the device is, rather than pretending it's something else.

I'm not sure if you fully considered your point here Patrick. Happy Action Theater worked because it wasn't a "game", in the sense that it didn't have specific goals. It was a toy, which is absolutely fine, but there was no success or failure element to it. So when the detection screws up, who cares, because it's just a fun toy.

As soon as you introduce an end goal, which is intrinsic to most games, and a player feels impeded from accomplishing that goal because of the fidelity of the detection and not their own ability, that's where a Kinect game breaks down.

So by "embrace what the device is", you're saying embrace it being a control method so imprecise that you can't actually build entertaining games with any competitive aspect or end goal around it. So that leaves us with what? Basically "activity" collections, like Happy Action Theater or it means combining the Kinect with more traditional input methods in a manner that makes it largely ancillary to the gameplay. Exactly how many similar titles like that do you think the market would support? That's not a future for the device either.

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me3639

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Edited By me3639

It never hit me or my wallet, as 3D, Wii waste, or any other gimmick that has been tossed down the line over the last 10 years. All i want are good games and gimmicks are for kids. It also wont die as the wii balance board showed, it will be wrapped with a nice bow every year with a new work out video.

While i highly enjoyed Vinny and Jeff in their QL of the new Fitness sports, its the Legend RD and anytime he walked in front of a Kinect. Nothing can bring a smile to my face then or now as easy as those vids. Just a few below.

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krelmoon

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Imagine a world where steel battalion had worked as advertised. Everything they were having it do the kinect should have been able to handle and it used the controller to for the mech controls that kinect could not handle. I wish I knew the full story on how they allowed that game to ship that broken. Even as a gimmick kinect plus controller had potential. No one ever tried it again.

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melodiousj

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@fawkes said:

[1/2] Also, if you're looking for "higher fidelity tech" to rescue motion control gaming, you fundamentally misunderstand physical play.

— Douglas Wilson (@doougle) May 14, 2014

This statement sounds like it is saying things are supposed to be wonky and the action on screen is supposed to be disjointed from the actions in the real world. If that is the case then I'll be glad when the Kinect is completely dead and buried. I have no interest in lowering my expectations for video game controls to a point where it doesn't matter if the game does what I want it to.

No, what he means is that the analogue between actions in the real world and actions in the game need to be better designed. The mistake that way too many developers make with motion control is they try to make the player pantomime the action their onscreen character is supposed to do, which creates an immediate disconnect the second those two things fail to line up correctly.

The reason Wii Sports works as well as it does has nothing to do with fidelity. If anything, Wii Sports benefits from having a much lower fidelity than most motion controlled games, it also does a good job of hiding the fact that it's just barely reading your movements and handling most of the action without telling you. Reduced fidelity and that slight layer of abstraction makes for a game that's considerably more playable, even if the realism is broken the minute you start thinking too hard about what you're doing.

Basically, he's saying that a lot of the problems people run into with Kinect could be solved by having it take in less complex inputs overall, and designing around not just the hardware limitations but also the real life limitations that the player is going to have to deal with in trying to use the thing in the first place. (keep in mind that this is coming from a man who designed a game where you hold a controller still, and other people try to make you shake your controller while also holding theirs still)

Unless they can make a Kinect that perfectly reads your actions 1-1 exactly 100% of the time, then making games that require precise pantomime on the part of the player are never going to work right.

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sgtsphynx

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@me3639 said:

It never hit me or my wallet, as 3D, Wii waste, or any other gimmick that has been tossed down the line over the last 10 years. All i want are good games and gimmicks are for kids. It also wont die as the wii balance board showed, it will be wrapped with a nice bow every year with a new work out video.

While i highly enjoyed Vinny and Jeff in their QL of the new Fitness sports, its the Legend RD and anytime he walked in front of a Kinect. Nothing can bring a smile to my face then or now as easy as those vids. Just a few below.

yep, but you forgot one excellent example...

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And the star segment of the quicklook...

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arcn

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I think that regardless of the promise of Kinect and whether it managed to live up to that promise (I don't think it did at all), that this was also caused by Microsoft's hubris. Besides touting stuff like Skype calls and voice commands, and how it was involved in their TV plans, I don't think there was ever some kind of unified message saying here's why people who play games should care about Kinect. It seemed like Microsoft mostly just showed up and said, "hey we're the Xbox people, we've been on top for the last 8 years, and we want one of these in every home so you're gonna pay for it, because you really have no other choice" Which seems like the worst way to get people to adopt something.

Whether this is the end of the Kinect, who knows? When they announced the new SKU I saw someone say, "there's nothing to worry about, if they want Kinect games they can just buy the one with kinect," wait you mean the one that they're having trouble selling already? I think there's a very real chance that the Kinect will suffer from Wii U syndrome when the new SKU comes out. Also known as, "no one is buying this thing, and no developers will make a game for it because no one is buying it."

Actually, to be honest, this probably would have been a horrible business decision, but you know what? If Microsoft cared so much about getting a Kinect in every home, then they should have covered the cost of it themselves. No consumer should have to pay an extra hundred dollars for a product that already failed once, and is mostly being sold on the promise of seeming futuristic.

Sure there's a chance that the Kinect add on by itself might succeed, but I just don't see Microsoft getting behind it, at least not for games, and especially not like they did back in 2010, with weirdo Cirque Du Soleil elephants and tons of games.

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Cinnase7en

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@rokkaku: MS, as we know through the leaked 56 page document a few years ago, is working on AR glasses. Which have, even according to someone like John Carmack, greater commercial potential than VR goggles. MS will be fine in that respect.

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Sorry, I don't buy it. Microsoft isn't "partially" to blame. I've seen plenty of articles over the past few days that have blamed both consumers and developers for the death of Kinect, but the blame lies right at Microsoft's feet. You have a device that had great potential as an enthusiast / hobbyist piece of hardware and they squandered it by marketing it as something it's not.

Both developers and consumers bought into the promise of the Kinect, took their lumps, learned their lessons and moved on. Microsoft making the decision for everyone that no, we're not done with the Kinect, instead of letting the market decide was incredibly arrogant and nearsighted on their part. They've got no one to blame but themselves.

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oobs

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I was just never interested in kinect to start with. Nothing would have changed my mind. Sure they did voice commands on some later games only but had those on some rainbow six games on the first xbox. Could have done those without a kinect on the 360

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The xbox one's Kinect is going to find it's use in experimental and new technologies as well as VR for years to come.

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StingingVelvet

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I think one big problem is they keep trying to get traditional gamers on board instead of shooting for new audiences. The Wii didn't care if Call of Duty people were on board, it just was what it was and sold to who was interested. Kinect kept trying to force itself into Mass Effect or use the Fable name to try and get me to like it. I was never, ever, going to like it, but the secret is that you don't need me.

The whole video game industry has a problem with budgeting and marketing toward people who want the experience you're making, rather than some mythical "gamer" they have in their heads.

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Hadoken

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Oh please! Let me introduce you two: Rider meet horse, horse meet rider.

Oh please! Let me introduce you two: Rider meet horse, horse meet rider.

Oh please! Let me introduce you two: Rider meet horse, horse meet rider.

Oh please! Let me introduce you two: Rider meet horse, horse meet rider.

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Redhotchilimist

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I don't really care about the marketing aspect of it, what people imagined looking at it was to perform an action and that action taking place in the game, and that seems to have never come true to a satisfying degree. If Happy Action theatre and Dance Central managed to cover that up, good for them, but those games were "do something for a few minutes and we'll hide how stupid you look/we'll make it more explicit". That's not fun for me save for messing around for a few hours/looking at you guys mess around for a few hours. Buttons are more useful for every genre, and no new ones cropped up. So for me, it's hard to feel sad about the Kinect, or any motion controllers. At least in the way you intended, Patrick.

@stingingvelvet said:

I think one big problem is they keep trying to get traditional gamers on board instead of shooting for new audiences. The Wii didn't care if Call of Duty people were on board, it just was what it was and sold to who was interested. Kinect kept trying to force itself into Mass Effect or use the Fable name to try and get me to like it. I was never, ever, going to like it, but the secret is that you don't need me.

The whole video game industry has a problem with budgeting and marketing toward people who want the experience you're making, rather than some mythical "gamer" they have in their heads.

I thought the people who want these kinds of games don't really get many games. A lot of people bought a Wii, but that thing was collecting dust ages before the Wii U arrived. I don't think those people are going to buy a ton of Kinect games, when they're just an aside you do with a group of friends you have over maybe once or twice instead of watching a movie or playing singstar or whatever. I guess I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I don't think Nintendo would make their new controller this much closer to a classic controller if the wii was still doing great for them and all their new customers kept buying games for it.

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@rokkaku: MS, as we know through the leaked 56 page document a few years ago, is working on AR glasses. Which have, even according to someone like John Carmack, greater commercial potential than VR goggles. MS will be fine in that respect.

Even if the existence of that document is accurate, you have to remember that it's also years old. There is no confirmation that the project it's associated with is even in the works anymore. It might never have progressed beyond the R&D stage. And even if Microsoft is still working on AR glasses, there's no guarantee that the tech will live up to the promises of the initial documentation. I mean, just compare Microsoft's promises of Project Natal with the reality of Kinect. One is sunshine and rainbows of a perfect, fluidly working technology. The other is a crapshoot of spotty voice recognition, imprecise motion detection and feedback, and restrictions of environmental necessity. The reality was never even close to the initial promises.

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I don't know that I agree it wasn't Kinect's fault. Oh, I know there are limitations. And I completely agree that Harmonix showed that the key is knowing how to make a game within them.

But the onus of those limitations is partly Kinect's fault. Sure, there are plenty more, like it's going to be hard to get gamers to play Kinect games for hours on end like they do controller games, simply because it's more tiring to play Kinect games.

In the end, it's kind of the party game problem again. The gamers who buy the most games, the "hardcore gamers" to use a phrase I hate, want games that are deep and complex. They don't want party games, they want a game they can be challenged by and master.

And it's just supremely hard to make a game that can be challenging and have a lot of depth and still run it with Kinect because of the fidelity limitations.

That means Kinect not only requires knowing the limitations of the controls, but also the limitation that you will have to reach an entirely new audience, because the audience that makes most successful games successful is going to spurn your game.

Wii did it. It absolutely nailed the "mile wide and an inch deep" needed to turn a lot of non-gamers into buyers. But it's supremely hard, Kinect didn't manage it, Move didn't manage it and Wii U didn't manage it either.

In the end, the product's price profile and appeal profile means you are aiming at a very small target. And MS didn't hit that target.

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Quite simply, the Kinect use limits the game genres and possibilities. You can't turn back or you won't see the screen anymore, just that eliminates : FPS, TPS, action/adventure, football, fighting ... And even if asvertised I'm sure a driving simulator wouldn't respond as well as a controller : you need extreme precision when you turn or accelerate or brake.

And what about controlling your TV? Damn get a remote/controller it'll be 10 times easier.

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selbie

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Edited By selbie

The problem with motion control is obvious: SYNTAX

These two generations of motion control devices have highlighted that people don't yet know how to interface with a device that is reading a fairly arbitrary input.

I remember playing SSX Blur for the Wii when it came out, and a lot of players complained about the lack of control over the tricks (drawing shapes in the air). Yet with a small amount of practice you can learn what the motion controller is actually trying to read (or what the developers have designed as the correct "activation" of a move) and I was pulling off moves with no problem at all.

Developers need to stop trying to shoehorn the device into a "perfect simulation" scenario, and instead recognise those flaws and ONLY design functions that have an almost 100% success rate. THEN they need to figure out a way to teach people those inputs so that players don't suffer from the frustration of a, say, 60% success rate.

It's almost like Microsoft is giving us a regular sedan with all-wheel-drive and assuming that because it uses all wheels, it can go over rough terrain like a 4WD truck.

Motion control is not dead. Microsoft just suck at communication.