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Letter from the Editor - 07/02/2014

Hey, hi. Let's talk for a sec, OK?

In the last few days there's been a lot of talk about what Giant Bomb is and isn't. What it stands for and what it won't stand for. A lot of people have made a lot of assumptions about what we do and how we act, and what we tolerate or even condone on our message boards and live chats. Most of this isn't new, but it's well past time to come out and say what this staff and this site stands for.

Giant Bomb is, by design, an inclusionary place. When we originally built the site back in 2008, it was originally thought of as a place where our audience could contribute in meaningful ways. Or, if they like, they can just sit back and enjoy our various productions. When I say "inclusionary," I mean exactly that. No person should be excluded from our site. The fact that some people have been resistant to people based on their gender, religion, race, creed, or anything else like that is not acceptable. Even less acceptable are people who make their exclusionary beliefs known (repeatedly and often aggressively) and then attempt to say that those viewpoints are valid and, thus, must be allowed for us to remain inclusionary. That is bad logic. That is a bullying tactic, and that style of intimidation will not be tolerated.

We moderate our live chats, message boards, and comment threads. And we do it rather viciously. Some things certainly do slip through the cracks and you may see some garbage on our site before we get to it. To those of you who help by reporting things to our moderation team, you have my thanks. We're certainly not perfect. When we launched the site, we launched it with one simple rule: "don't be a dick." This may have gotten by in an age when we were a fraction of our current size. These days, we've grown to a point where small community rules aren't enough. We'll be implementing new moderation policies and adjusting a few things behind-the-scenes to enhance our ability to moderate the boards. We'll have more to say about those policy changes as they come.

We felt the need to come forward and state our position after some individuals decided to speak out about how we're conducting business and were promptly attacked and abused on Twitter and other social media platforms. Whether one agrees with our critics or not, it certainly doesn't warrant the response they've received.

I feel absolutely horrible that people have been harassed for simply expressing their views about what we do.

The people attacking our critics do not represent our views and they never have, whether they're doing it in our name or not. I appreciate that people enjoy our work and that they often care enough about it to criticize it.

I would like to apologize to everyone that has seen any bit of unpleasantness this week, whether it is directly associated with our message boards or not. We will continue to work to make the site a better place for everyone to enjoy.

Thanks for using our site. It's been a very bumpy ride over these last couple of years and it just now feels like we're getting our feet underneath us and getting to a point where we can move forward. There's still a very active, wonderful, and beloved community at the core of this site, and their reputation has been tarnished alongside ours. We simply cannot and will not allow negative elements to ruin what we've built together.

-Jeff

Jeff Gerstmann on Google+

1645 Comments

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broadcastbrian24

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Jeff.

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Gregoric399

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Edited By Gregoric399

Well said

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rangers517

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Edited By rangers517

@masterbrief: I completely agree. The whole situation sucks because you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I think it would be absolutely ridiculous if they opened up a new position and the implication became that straight white dudes shouldn't even apply because this time, they need to hire a minority. That's not leveling the playing field or whatever; that's outright discrimination.

I don't want them to give preference to a minority just for being a minority. I think that cheapens it even if that minority totally deserved the job regardless. I think the right move for Giant Bomb is to simply search for minority freelancers. There's no commitment there, no competition, no special treatment. The whole point of freelancers is to get an outside perspective, something you couldn't have done in-house, so searching for minority freelancers doesn't feel exclusionary in the same way that explicitly looking for a minority staff member would. When it comes time for a new staff member, minority freelancers would have a better chance of getting hired because they were freelancers and talented individuals, not solely because they're minorities.

But like you, I completely trust Jeff's judgment. Dude's a class act and I've never once seen him compromise his integrity in the decade-plus I've been following him.

I agree with this. And I'll add for myself, I think the best thing this site has going for it is the "group of funny friends" aspect. If they had another opening right now, I would want them to hire John Drake(haven't been keeping up, did he find another job yet?).

I don't know, maybe that makes me a bad person or something but I just like funny videos.

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MasterBrief

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@whatisdelicious: Agreed. Glad to have another sane, free thinking human in the world. I trust him and his opinions a lot no matter how crazy they are.

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AV_Gamer

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@zornack: There's thousands of comments in this thread, I suggest you start looking. But I recommend you start at the original new hires thread in the forums.

The subject of women and people of color just being hired because, and not being really qualified has come up several times.

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mtfikhan

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You have my sword

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Quipido

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I'll continue to not be a dick, on this site and in life in general. Thanks to all feeling the same way.

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BeautifulSpaceCowboy

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Party on, Jeff. Thanks for coming out and making a statement.

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rm082e

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Someone describes the physical symptoms of being harassed for simply participating in a discussion and your response is that they need to "change direction"? That might be the most stunning lack of empathy in this whole thread, and that's really saying something.

Also, if women are constantly "losing" you, it might be worth reflecting on what that says about you and how willing you are to consider other people's viewpoints.

This is exactly the point I was making: When you pigeon-hole someone into a box so that you can dismiss the point they were making, you've done your side of the argument a disservice. I'm sure it's a lot easier to paint me as insensitive and uncaring person, rather than talk about the specific points I was making, but it doesn't get us any closer to actually finding a solution to the problem does it? All it does it show everyone who read my post and partially agreed with it that you would rather steer the conversation into personal attacks.

No one is being forced to participate in this discussion. Period. No one is in chains with a gun to their head here. We all show up and exchange ideas of our own free will. I don't care what the issue is - allowing any issue to become so important and draining that it starts effecting your health should be unacceptable to all individuals. If anyone hits that point, they need to take a step back from the discussion and refocus on the positive things in their life. People should put their health first. That shouldn't even be up for debate.

Even if we all fixed this problem today, that's not going to fix someone's health if they are depressed and their hands start shaking when someone brings up a particular topic online. And like I said earlier, if you can't filter out the vicious trolls and focus on having a discussion with the reasonable people who are actively trying to engage with you, then you should find a different format or location where you can better filter the quality discussion and make light of it.

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Hace

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Edited By Hace

I dunno. Would it be stupid to invite some off-site writers to make something for the site like every Monday for a few months or something, just to highlight video game journalists who didn't get new jobs in the last few days?

Would that maybe be too on the nose? Now might be a good time to spend some of that fresh quarter budget on something like that, though I'll admit I have no idea how unearthly expensive that would be.

Edit: Also, thanks for the official responses guys. At least I was feeling pretty darn horrible there for a few days and just officially saying something makes it feel like some healing might be able to start.

At least for us who don't have to keep banning people on Twitter.

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saddlebrown

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Edited By saddlebrown

@av_gamer: A lot of people have been misinterpreting that side of the discussion though. If you bring up Zoe Quinn, for example, which several people have, and I say that she's not qualified, I'm not shouting you down because she's a woman and can't possibly do this job. I'm looking at her as an individual and what her expertise is in and saying that I don't think someone who is primarily a game developer would fit this job. Nowhere in my description of why Zoe Quinn would not be qualified would the word "woman" be used.

People threw out a lot of random names just hoping that either one would stick or that it would get immediately deemed unqualified so that they could demonize the other "side" of this discussion as being sexist or racist, that no minority will ever be good enough, when, again, it has nothing to do with those people being female, or Hispanic, or black, or gay, or transgender. Every person is an individual and will therefore come with his or her own qualifications that extend beyond the color of their skin or what's between their legs or what they prefer to be between their partner's legs.

There are plenty of qualified women and minorities people can use as examples. I've said Jennifer Tsao a few times. She used to work at 1UP and EGM, with writing and managing experience as well as extensive video and podcasting, then eventually worked at Sega, but last I checked, she was laid off. I would love to see her return to this side of the fence. Jenn Frank is another. She also used to work for EGM and has a ton of writing and podcasting experience under her belt. She was also the voice in Super Hexagon, and that's pretty rad. Patrick had her on the morning show once. If N'Gai Croal didn't already have a successful business as a consultant, I would love to see him work for Giant Bomb. He's black and cares about race issues, but he's also super funny and used to write awesome stuff for Newsweek's Level Up blog and would fit right in with the crew while offering that "unique perspective" everybody's been talking about.

Those are the kinds of names people should be dropping. Instead they're just throwing out random names of minorities and women they'd like to see who aren't actually qualified for the job simply because they're not qualified, not because they are minorities or women, and so of course people are refuting those suggestions.

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deactivated-589cf9e3c287e

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I miss Dave...he had such a pacifying influence on this community.

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Zornack

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Edited By Zornack

@av_gamer: I have been reading. I think you're misinterpreting peoples' stance of "I don't want them to go out of their way to make the staff more diverse, just hire whoever's the best candidate" as "the best candidate will always be a white man, minorities are inferior."

For clarification, I'm not one who holds the opinion that they shouldn't seek out a more diverse staff.

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Firrae

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I guess I missed what happened but I totally agree with what you wrote Jeff. Keep on making this an awesome site to hang out in!

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skunkdragon

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Edited By skunkdragon

Right on Brother!

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durden77

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Edited By durden77

Good shit Jeff. I've been here since the beginning, and I know what this site stands for. I also knew it would be incredibly hard to keep those same great morals in check as the site naturally got larger.

But you guys haven't backed away from those values even for an instant. While they sometimes may be a bit harder to translate to the masses as their numbers grow, mad respect for always holding them true, and making sure they know. This place will never be Giant Bomb without those values front in center, it would just be another place to check out games.

Thanks Jeff. Stay real brother, and keep growing with fun.

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@shingro said:

@crushed: Wait, I think we might have a missed communication line somewhere. He was saying that regardless of the trials of your past you are still responsible for acting well (and in his case) within the law/rules in the present.

whether you "get" a person's pain or not, they are not absolved of responsibility to their actions by pain alone...

Thank you. This is what I was getting at.

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RadixNegative2

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Very well put Jeff. Giant Bomb is and has been for many years the place I can go to feel welcome and safe. Regardless of what is going on in my life, I know Giant Bomb is there for me. The crew have always done an excellent job of keeping the site inclusive and the community has mostly been a reflection of this.

I love you guys, both the crew and the community. Thanks for everything you have given me over the years. I hope we can all continue to make the site inclusive for everyone.

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Feller13

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Does this mean I'm going to be punished for thinking it's abhorrent that a grown, video game playing man doesn't know about the African theater of WWII? It was in COD2! Are you going to tell me you hired someone who hasn't played COD2?

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conmulligan

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Edited By conmulligan
@rm082e said:

This is exactly the point I was making: When you pigeon-hole someone into a box so that you can dismiss the point they were making, you've done your side of the argument a disservice. I'm sure it's a lot easier to paint me as insensitive and uncaring person, rather than talk about the specific points I was making, but it doesn't get us any closer to actually finding a solution to the problem does it? All it does it show everyone who read my post and partially agreed with it that you would rather steer the conversation into personal attacks.

No one is being forced to participate in this discussion. Period. No one is in chains with a gun to their head here. We all show up and exchange ideas of our own free will. I don't care what the issue is - allowing any issue to become so important and draining that it starts effecting your health should be unacceptable to all individuals. If anyone hits that point, they need to take a step back from the discussion and refocus on the positive things in their life. People should put their health first. That shouldn't even be up for debate.

Even if we all fixed this problem today, that's not going to fix someone's health if they are depressed and their hands start shaking when someone brings up a particular topic online. And like I said earlier, if you can't filter out the vicious trolls and focus on having a discussion with the reasonable people who are actively trying to engage with you, then you should find a different format or location where you can better filter the quality discussion and make light of it.

What point is there to debate? As far as I can tell your sole contribution to the discussion has been to tone-police the women who were most harshly critical of Giant Bomb. In fact, you've spent more energy criticising those women than you have their abusers.

As Rorie has outlined in previous comments, multiple people have come forward to say they feel uncomforable expressing their opinion on Giant Bomb for fear of harassment or being shouted down. Your solution, that they should "find a different format or location where you can better filter the quality discussion", is diametrically opposed to the inclusive message Jeff conveys in his letter and what Rorie has been saying in the forums.

I'm genuinely not trying to pigeon-hole you or dismiss your arguments, just pointing out that they come across as hugely insensitive, especially in light of the seriousness of the abuse.

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Skronk61

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Oh my brotha... TESTIFY!!!

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yyZiggurat

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Edited By yyZiggurat

@rm082e: You're talking sense.

@rangers517 said:

@crazylittle said:

@shingro said:

@crushed: Wait, I think we might have a missed communication line somewhere. He was saying that regardless of the trials of your past you are still responsible for acting well (and in his case) within the law/rules in the present.

whether you "get" a person's pain or not, they are not absolved of responsibility to their actions by pain alone...

@winternet said:

@fear_the_booboo: being angry and actively insulting someone is two different things though.

These are both examples of "tone arguments" and they add nothing other than shifting the blame to the victims. @crushed posted an excellent allegory a page ago which demonstrates why the posts above do more harm, even if unintentional.

Calling a troll a troll does not slight the character of the person calling out the troll.

Having a topical avatar of the Macklemore controversy does not automatically make that person a troll. She didn't even bring up the avatar until a while after, anyway.

That also isn't the only person she told to fuck themselves. If you think Samantha Allen was justified in saying that because the person with the Macklemore avatar could have been a troll, please tell me what this person did wrong: https://twitter.com/Niko_of_Death/status/483893981265543168

If we're only talking about the argument for diversity at GB, I think Allen has done a poor job at getting people on her side. But, from reading her "I am a misandrist" post that's since been deleted, I don't think that was ever her intention.

Some of tranphobic slurs people have tweeted at her that are still up. I can still disagree with the way she presents her arguments and say that no one deserves that kind of abuse.

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rorie

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Edited By rorie

@brodehouse: I think you really need to calm down. This is a heated thread, and calling other people sexists, thugs, hypocritical, etc., isn't going to make it any better, whether they're on the site or off it.

That goes for everyone else in this thread, as well. We had some good discussions in here last night and I'd like to ensure that we don't just start shouting at each other. I'm going to start deleting a lot of comments if people can't be calm.

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Shingro

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@rm082e said:

This is exactly the point I was making: When you pigeon-hole someone into a box so that you can dismiss the point they were making, you've done your side of the argument a disservice. I'm sure it's a lot easier to paint me as insensitive and uncaring person, rather than talk about the specific points I was making, but it doesn't get us any closer to actually finding a solution to the problem does it? All it does it show everyone who read my post and partially agreed with it that you would rather steer the conversation into personal attacks.

No one is being forced to participate in this discussion. Period. No one is in chains with a gun to their head here. We all show up and exchange ideas of our own free will. I don't care what the issue is - allowing any issue to become so important and draining that it starts effecting your health should be unacceptable to all individuals. If anyone hits that point, they need to take a step back from the discussion and refocus on the positive things in their life. People should put their health first. That shouldn't even be up for debate.

Even if we all fixed this problem today, that's not going to fix someone's health if they are depressed and their hands start shaking when someone brings up a particular topic online. And like I said earlier, if you can't filter out the vicious trolls and focus on having a discussion with the reasonable people who are actively trying to engage with you, then you should find a different format or location where you can better filter the quality discussion and make light of it.

What point is there to debate? As far as I can tell your sole contribution to the discussion has been to tone-police the women who were most harshly critical of Giant Bomb. In fact, you've spent more energy criticising those women than you have their abusers.

As Rorie has outlined in previous comments, multiple people have come forward to say they feel uncomforable expressing their opinion on Giant Bomb for fear of harassment or being shouted down. Your solution, that they should "find a different format or location where you can better filter the quality discussion", is diametrically opposed to the inclusive message Jeff conveys in his letter and what Rorie has been saying in the forums.

I'm genuinely not trying to pigeon-hole you or dismiss your arguments, just pointing out that they come across as hugely insensitive, especially in light of the seriousness of the abuse.

Hey man, that's *directly* not the issue that was under discussion. What was under discussion were people who have suffered such trauma that they're incapable of dealing with the issue without severe anger issues and harsh language. People who might serve a good cause but can't help but do so in a way that is a liability to the cause they love.

You moving that to "the people who feel uncomfortable saying something at giant bomb" is blatant misdirection, and a terribly ugly discussion tactic. I hope this was just some sort of accident, but it's the second time you've pulled something shady.

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deactivated-5e49e9175da37

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@rorie: I'm perfectly calm and no point in my post features me raising my voice.

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b2shy

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Well said Jeff and let me also say that Giant Bomb is an awesome site and while I don't always participate in chat or in the forums, I'm honored to count myself among an awesome community. Thanks Giant Bomb for everything you do for all of us.

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rorie

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@brodehouse: Then your definition of calm and mine are very different.

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onarum

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Well, this situation just proves the age long fact that the world is full of absolute idiots, and that idiocy gets amplified by the anonymity of the internet.

I actually do not know exactly what Jeff is talking about(but I got a pretty good idea just reading this), since I don't follow this sort of thing, and that actually makes me feel better as a person.

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rm082e

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What point is there to debate? As far as I can tell your sole contribution to the discussion has been to tone-police the women who were most harshly critical of Giant Bomb. In fact, you've spent more energy criticising those women than you have their abusers.

As Rorie has outlined in previous comments, multiple people have come forward to say they feel uncomforable expressing their opinion on Giant Bomb for fear of harassment or being shouted down. Your solution, that they should "find a different format or location where you can better filter the quality discussion", is diametrically opposed to the inclusive message Jeff conveys in his letter and what Rorie has been saying in the forums.

I'm genuinely not trying to pigeon-hole you or dismiss your arguments, just pointing out that they come across as hugely insensitive, especially in light of the seriousness of the abuse.

I am trying to help the advocates of diversity because I think they have a point. I'm not defending the disgusting behavior of trolls. I just don't feel that I need to prefaced everything I say with "oh and those people threatening to rape and kill you are really bad." - Of course they're bad. That is obvious.

And in fact, I think those advocates would be much better served if they were coming here and talking about it. Instead, what I saw yesterday was a podcast on Youtube, a bunch of tweets, and a variety of posts on personal blogs. You'll notice that Giant Bomb has no control over any of those sites. And yet the Giant Bomb community got blamed for the trolls who were doing the abusing on those sites they have no control over, which is what caused Jeff and Alex to send out their tweets yesterday morning. If this had all taken place on the Giant Bomb forums, the mods would have had more power to control the conversation and keep it civil. And if Giant Bomb doesn't want to police that sort of conversation, then the people on both sides who feel passionately about that issue need to create a safe place to discuss it. Obviously, Twitter is not a safe place, so stop taking that argument there.

Yes it is unfair that people are being abused for trying to speak out. And I haven't seen anyone try to justify the rape and death threats. But lash out at an entire community because of the actions of a few trolls doesn't stop those threats, and it in fact hurts their argument by pouring gas on the fire as a whole.

Again, this is an important topic that needs to be discussed and it needs to be discussed in an environment that promotes respectful civil discourse, by people who can be respectful of each other. Twitter and comment threads are often times the worst place to try and foster that type of open discussion because it is so easy for trolls to troll, so stop going to those places and expecting them to be the bastions of intellectual nurture.

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rorie

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Edited By rorie

@rm082e said:

And in fact, I think those advocates would be much better served if they were coming here and talking about it. Instead, what I saw yesterday was a podcast on Youtube, a bunch of tweets, and a variety of posts on personal blogs. You'll notice that Giant Bomb has no control over any of those sites. And yet the Giant Bomb community got blamed for the trolls who were doing the abusing on those sites they have no control over, which is what caused Jeff and Alex to send out their tweets yesterday morning. If this had all taken place on the Giant Bomb forums, the mods would have had more power to control the conversation and keep it civil. And if Giant Bomb doesn't want to police that sort of conversation, then the people on both sides who feel passionately about that issue need to create a safe place to discuss it. Obviously, Twitter is not a safe place, so stop taking that argument there.

I have said this many times in this thread: I have multiple people come to me, and not just in the past couple of days, saying that they have felt intimidated and shouted down in threads much like this one. We have obviously not done a very good job of "controlling the conversation and keeping it civil," and we definitely deserve to be called out for that.

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bigstrat2003

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@crazylittle: The guy's previous comment history is irrelevant to that exchange, despite your repeated claims to the contrary. When someone makes a valid point (and let's be clear: he did make a very valid point against her bullshit accusation), it doesn't somehow become less correct because of their previous actions. You're advocating some kind of tainting of ideas regardless of their individual merit, which is asinine. You might be willing to disregard everything someone says because of dumb shit they said on other occasions, but most of us aren't, because it's not reasonable to do so.

I find it patently absurd that you're picking on the one person who did nothing wrong in that scenario. He might be literally Hitler in every other situation, but in that particular exchange he was cogent, rational, and civil (which is a hell of a lot more than you could say for Samantha). You say "stop defending trolls", I counter with "stop defending people who have some kind of chip on their shoulder and are hostile towards someone who doesn't agree with them". Samantha's actions were way the fuck out of line, and no amount of "but he's a troll!" claims are going to justify the kind of vitriol she threw at someone who made a quite reasonable counter-argument. That's not how grown-ups behave. If she didn't want to address his argument because she thought it wasn't genuine, then she should have not said a thing. That is the mature way to handle it, not flipping out with no provocation.

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MEZwaan

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Keep up the good work guys. d (^O^) b

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LonesomeYogurt

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Honest question: How many white men here would be comfortable if this show was done by a five-person team of all black women? I bet the vast majority of us would be very uncomfortable, or at least not relate in nearly the same way. And you might say, "Oh, no I'd be fine with it" but I'd wager that's just because you haven't had experience consuming media made solely by (and, by implication, for) people in a completely different social group. But marginalized people deal with that all the time, and it affects how they react to this.

I obviously don't think people of color or women or LGBT folks hate the show or don't wish for its destruction - but for perfectly understandable reasons, they probably don't connect in the same way, and I bet for a lot of people that's frustrating! We should try and understand that. I don't think a lot of the anger isn't specifically about the hiring of two new white men (who seem perfectly suited to the task!) but more about another opportunity to diversify and enrich the show being lost.

I applaud the GB staff for how they're handling it, but it saddens me to see that so many people in the comments just aren't even vaguely open to considering how the overwhelmingly white, male, heteronormative culture of video gaming might exclude people that deserve inclusion. That's a pity. Let's all be more open to examining our privilege in a real, meaningful way, alright? And when women especially do voice their opinions, please for the love of God don't police their tone and shut them down because they aren't acting in "approved" ways. That's completely unfair.

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@crazylittle: The guy's previous comment history is irrelevant to that exchange, despite your repeated claims to the contrary. When someone makes a valid point (and let's be clear: he did make a very valid point against her bullshit accusation), it doesn't somehow become less correct because of their previous actions. You're advocating some kind of tainting of ideas regardless of their individual merit, which is asinine. You might be willing to disregard everything someone says because of dumb shit they said on other occasions, but most of us aren't, because it's not reasonable to do so.

I find it patently absurd that you're picking on the one person who did nothing wrong in that scenario. He might be literally Hitler in every other situation, but in that particular exchange he was cogent, rational, and civil (which is a hell of a lot more than you could say for Samantha). You say "stop defending trolls", I counter with "stop defending people who have some kind of chip on their shoulder and are hostile towards someone who doesn't agree with them". Samantha's actions were way the fuck out of line, and no amount of "but he's a troll!" claims are going to justify the kind of vitriol she threw at someone who made a quite reasonable counter-argument. That's not how grown-ups behave. If she didn't want to address his argument because she thought it wasn't genuine, then she should have not said a thing. That is the mature way to handle it, not flipping out with no provocation.

Please don't dismiss people's comments as "bullshit accusations." You're permitted to feel that way, but obviously many people have taken them very seriously, so they can't simply be dismissed as "bullshit."

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rm082e

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@rorie said:

@rm082e said:

And in fact, I think those advocates would be much better served if they were coming here and talking about it. Instead, what I saw yesterday was a podcast on Youtube, a bunch of tweets, and a variety of posts on personal blogs. You'll notice that Giant Bomb has no control over any of those sites. And yet the Giant Bomb community got blamed for the trolls who were doing the abusing on those sites they have no control over, which is what caused Jeff and Alex to send out their tweets yesterday morning. If this had all taken place on the Giant Bomb forums, the mods would have had more power to control the conversation and keep it civil. And if Giant Bomb doesn't want to police that sort of conversation, then the people on both sides who feel passionately about that issue need to create a safe place to discuss it. Obviously, Twitter is not a safe place, so stop taking that argument there.

I have said this many times in this thread: I have multiple people come to me, and not just in the past couple of days, saying that they have felt intimidated and shouted down in threads much like this one. We have obviously not done a very good job of "controlling the conversation and keeping it civil," and we definitely deserve to be called out for that.

I know, and I'm not trying to let Giant Bomb off the hook for it's moderation issues. But you at least have some level of control here. You have no control over what people do on Twitter. So if the argument is being made on Twitter, it doesn't seem fair to then turn around and blame Giant Bomb for the abuse.

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rorie

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@rm082e said:

@rorie said:

@rm082e said:

And in fact, I think those advocates would be much better served if they were coming here and talking about it. Instead, what I saw yesterday was a podcast on Youtube, a bunch of tweets, and a variety of posts on personal blogs. You'll notice that Giant Bomb has no control over any of those sites. And yet the Giant Bomb community got blamed for the trolls who were doing the abusing on those sites they have no control over, which is what caused Jeff and Alex to send out their tweets yesterday morning. If this had all taken place on the Giant Bomb forums, the mods would have had more power to control the conversation and keep it civil. And if Giant Bomb doesn't want to police that sort of conversation, then the people on both sides who feel passionately about that issue need to create a safe place to discuss it. Obviously, Twitter is not a safe place, so stop taking that argument there.

I have said this many times in this thread: I have multiple people come to me, and not just in the past couple of days, saying that they have felt intimidated and shouted down in threads much like this one. We have obviously not done a very good job of "controlling the conversation and keeping it civil," and we definitely deserve to be called out for that.

I know, and I'm not trying to let Giant Bomb off the hook for it's moderation issues. But you at least have some level of control here. You have no control over what people do on Twitter. So if the argument is being made on Twitter, it doesn't seem fair to then turn around and blame Giant Bomb for the abuse.

People have every right to argue that Giant Bomb's culture and what we permit here contributes to the way people act when they attempt to defend us on other forums on the internet. I'm not saying I entirely agree with that assertion, but it's a valid point of argument and one that we can't simply dismiss.

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Bernoulli

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*clap clap* You still got it *clap clap clap* you still got it

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@shingro said:

Hey man, that's *directly* not the issue that was under discussion. What was under discussion were people who have suffered such trauma that they're incapable of dealing with the issue without severe anger issues and harsh language. People who might serve a good cause but can't help but do so in a way that is a liability to the cause they love.

You moving that to "the people who feel uncomfortable saying something at giant bomb" is blatant misdirection, and a terribly ugly discussion tactic. I hope this was just some sort of accident, but it's the second time you've pulled something shady.

As far as I can tell, @ultrapeanut hasn't displayed anger issues or used harsh language, and that's who @rm082e was responding to. As for my shady tactics, I can't say that I know what you're referring to but I'd be happy to clarify my position if you want to be more specific.

@rm082e said:

And in fact, I think those advocates would be much better served if they were coming here and talking about it. Instead, what I saw yesterday was a podcast on Youtube, a bunch of tweets, and a variety of posts on personal blogs. You'll notice that Giant Bomb has no control over any of those sites. And yet the Giant Bomb community got blamed for the trolls who were doing the abusing on those sites they have no control over, which is what caused Jeff and Alex to send out their tweets yesterday morning. If this had all taken place on the Giant Bomb forums, the mods would have had more power to control the conversation and keep it civil. And if Giant Bomb doesn't want to police that sort of conversation, then the people on both sides who feel passionately about that issue need to create a safe place to discuss it. Obviously, Twitter is not a safe place, so stop taking that argument there.

Yes it is unfair that people are being abused for trying to speak out. And I haven't seen anyone try to justify the rape and death threats. But lash out at an entire community because of the actions of a few trolls doesn't stop those threats, and it in fact hurts their argument by pouring gas on the fire as a whole.

Again, this is an important topic that needs to be discussed and it needs to be discussed in an environment that promotes respectful civil discourse, by people who can be respectful of each other. Twitter and comment threads are often times the worst place to try and foster that type of open discussion because it is so easy for trolls to troll, so stop going to those places and expecting them to be the bastions of intellectual nurture.

I take you at your word that you're trying to help, but you must know that there are more productive ways to do so than to just sit on the sidelines and criticise how people under attack respond to abuse. There's a reason why I called your argument tone-policing, which is because it's a well-known diversionary tactic that, intentional or not, typically only serves to silence critics.

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Edited By rm082e

@conmulligan said:

I take you at your word that you're trying to help, but you must know that there are more productive ways to do so than to just sit on the sidelines and criticise how people under attack respond to abuse. There's a reason why I called your argument tone-policing, which is because it's a well-known diversionary tactic that, intentional or not, typically only serves to silence critics.

From your link:

"The tone argument is a form of derailment, or a red herring, because the tone of a statement is independent of the content of the statement in question, and calling attention to it distracts from the issue at hand."

The problem I have is that the tone is distracting from the issue at hand. I have a hard time taking someone's argument for equality and diversity seriously when I see them posting things like "I hate men". If the trolls have driven them to that level of anger and frustration, then we need to remove the trolls from the equation first so we can have a civil discussion without the tone having an impact on the issues. That's not going to happen on Twitter, so let's not have that conversation there. Let's find or build a safe place to talk.

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JFiveJ5

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Very well said. Nice one, Jeff.

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obinice

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And remember what Big Jeffrey always says....Don't be a dick!

I'm excited for how we're moving forward. So, rock on :)

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Did I miss something? I never saw any flaming on our forums? Whenever I look at the sources, it's Twitter?

Oké, so now the entire Giantbomb community is held responsible for things being said on Twitter? I just love how social networks and responsibility is handled!

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Edited By rorie

@noxious said:

Did I miss something? I never saw any flaming on our forums? Whenever I look at the sources, it's Twitter?

Oké, so now the entire Giantbomb community is held responsible for things being said on Twitter? I just love how social networks and responsibility is handled!

I literally addressed this like five posts ago.

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asantosbr

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Good Jeff,

But when will YOU actually address the criticism?

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Edited By NoXious

@rorie:

My apologies, this 'thread' moves so fast - I can't keep up while I'm typing in a textbox at the bottom! I'll try and find it, through the masses of internet discussion.

Thank you for addressing my issue nonetheless.

@rorie

Well I found it, if that's what you meant by five posts down. It didn't address my issue - but I understand your point of view. Good luck on moderating these types of discussions! Much <3, and hope you meet some cute puppies.

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@stinkygash: Your username is particularly awful and a moderator will be in touch.

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@whatisdelicious said:

@masterbrief: I completely understand why people would be upset that there's no minorities on staff still. A lot of people have identified as female, gay, and all sorts of ethnicities over the last few days, and I think it's a bummer that those people might not feel as represented here as I do as a straight white dude. But yeah, both sides need to tone down a lot. Some of the shit that's been slung from both sides has been way over the line. Threatening people is never okay.

I don't get that though. I'm for gay rights and equality but doesn't it get complicated except in very specific situations? Does this mean its reasonable to expect them to hire on people just because they are gay or trangendered or maybe black or whatever minority you want to fight for? That's were this stuff gets down to stupid bickering just like it does about opinions on gay marriage across the nation. Say there is a straight white dude and a gay white dude both are equally qualified, are they expected to go with the minorities just because they are such? That would be a little unfair. No offense, I'd love to see more in the crew and to have them accepted around the world because it's absolutely backwards to reject people because of such things, but you can see where either side would say they chose the person because he was straight or he was gay. It sucks on another level that people always seem to pull a discrimination card and assume the person is doing so with that intent. It's all speculation and I have to trust Jeff's judgement and whoever else's that it was based on skills and so forth.

Not meant to start anything I just think it's a huge problem because you'll have genuine issues with discrimination and then you have other asshats that will use that as an excuse for their own gains or just plain payback, much like girls that claim rape on innocent guys. Just sucks that people can't be nice and civil and respect peoples rights. In closing I'd like to see more women involved in the industry, I know there are a lot already but I do wish they would have go a female cast member to get a slightly different view from time to time.

This is a terrible post and you should feel terrible.

Gay rights and equality don't "get complicated except in very specific situations" and no one's saying that they expect GB to hire someone "just because they are gay or transgendered or maybe black or whatever minority," except the depressingly ignorant people on this site.

"People always pull the discrimination card!" is basically shorthand for white dudes who feel set-upon by those whiny minorities because i mean racism is slurs and fire hoses and burning crosses racism isn't subtle right

"Girls who claim rape on innocent guys" only exist in the minds of MRAs. (see also: https://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates)

Also people keep bringing up how people swamped Leigh Alexander and others with harassment and threats and etc. but they weren't civil they criticised giant bomb and they even told someone fuck you! as if the two balance out. (loooool i can't help thinking of that Margaret Atwood quote - "Men fear that women will laugh at them. Women fear that men will kill them."

People don't have an obligation to be civil or keep some moral high ground when the other party is being horrible and abusive, and being civil does not automatically give you more credibility. (And if you think people shouldn't face discrimination or harassment for being a woman or black or trans or whatever and visible on the internet unless they're impolite about it, you are part of the big, throbbing, cancerous problem with this site.) You can very easily say horrible things all civil-like! It feels like a lot of people are missing the point there (even some of the mods! Who seem to be muzzling people or deleting comments for getting "heated" or basically not being nice, but leave the torrent of misogyny and horrible, ignorant, bigoted opinions that the hiring thread turned into alone.)

It's nice that Jeff commented, but it seems a little divorced from reality. "Vicious moderation?" It could totes use vicious moderation, but without taking a zero-tolerance approach with people who say not just blatantly sexist/racist/homophobic/etc. things but dog-whistle shit like talking about false rape claims or clickbait and SJWs and the feminist agenda or how UGH THEY WANT TO FORCE US TO HIRE MINORITIES or "white people = MOST HATED MINORITY ON THE PLANET" or w/e and abuse apologism/victim-blaming people because they were critical on the internet or a little mean to their harassers, this place is going to be a cesspool.

I really hope it gets better, but the Allen thing plus a couple of days on the forums have pretty much turned me off everything GB always forever so whatever i guess.