Microsoft Digs Bigger Hole Over Used Games

Did you stop and consider that maybe people who buy consoles don't use Steam or play PC games? The VAST MAJORITY of people who play console games don't play PC games. There is no hypocrisy.

Microsoft's statement should have been:

“Our reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete.”

This is good news. Whenever Patrick talks about a games company he acts as if they would be doing much better if only they would listen to him... It's annoying to say the least

Something just came to my mind. If keeping games locked to one single account is already generating so much discussion what will it be about all the living room TV hub thingy. I might be wrong but my understanding is that the new Xbox will be useless unless you are logged in with your Xbox account... What happen when my parents come to visit? Does my mum need to setup an account with a user name and password in order to change a channel on my TV? (btw my mum is 68 and hates the internet except for emails).

Also, if you buy a cartoon for your kids using your account they won't be able to watch it unless I am in the room and that Kinect can recognize me to log me in? These large corporation really don't get it, it is not because of the money that people download pirated media, it is just much more flexible and convenient than their DRM alternative. When people pay more they expect more benefits not more restrictions!!!

I imagine whatever plan Microsoft has is already well in motion, so I doubt we will see much of a change between now and launch. If I were an executive at Sony, I would go the traditional way with physically bought games and the give incentives to purchase the digital version. Asking the consumer to pay the same for something they have less control over, and has a purely digital existence, is at the very least unreasonable. Why on earth would people give up something for nothing in return? That's not how business works, and like it or not, Microsoft and the people who buy their products are business partners. Microsoft should should do a better job of remembering that.

Let's remember: nothing is set in stone. They even clarified that in a recent e-mail sent out to current Xbox Live subscribers.

I love you Patrick, but that read like some dramatic sorority sisters angry email to the rival tri deltas for booking a formal on the same weekend.

Look, this isn't a "product launch", there are things they most likely don't have locked down for a million legal/technical reasons. Yes, it seems pretty obvious these kinds of questions were coming and they should have hired Carl Rove or something to help with dodging questions.

...

My bigger concern is the ENTIRE GAMING MEDIA just fucking jumping off the 360 bandwagon they have ridden on for almost a decade in literally five weeks or so...it's amazing. Podcast by podcast, article by article each of them began to talk about how "Sony just gets us man." What? Am I missing something? I'm too tired to list all of their epic blunders over this generation, but it's like none of it happened overnight. I don't care about who "won or lost" or who will, I'll buy both like always then eventually migrate back to the PC. What bothers me is the lack of respect for Microsoft's scars...give them the respect they earned this generation.

Look at it this way, look at both the PS3 and 360 on launch day. They were just these gaming consoles that promised a bunch of shit and had terrible UI and some pretty bad design choices overall and sounded like jet engines when booting up. Then jump to today and I think it's much easier to appreciate the amazing shit Microsoft pulled off this generation. NOBODY could have imagined the things that your 360 does today when it came out. They kept evolving, changing, adding features, services, VALUE...ugly ass metro tiles...you get the point. On the other hand Sony's shitty UI and awful network setup (or whatever makes updates take hours) finally in the last year or so has "maybe" brought itself to parity with the 360.

It bothers me. It's been bothering me for weeks now. It's this whole "What Have You Done For Me TODAY" generational vibe that seems to have no respect for accomplishments made and will salivate over whatever shiny new thing comes around the bend.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I was referring to people who bitch and moan about this and then go "PC master race!"

As an aside here, how would it work with a game if I wanted to sell my game to a friend. If the game goes to a reseller, they must update Microsoft that it is in there system. So it deactivates from you and is ready to sell on and activate somewhere else. Where they have stated it will not require a secondary fee.

But if I sell my game to a friend......... Currently they state if it is "lent" it deactivates on your system whilst you are logged in on their console. Once I leave they then have an option to purchase the game for their own account.

So how do I sell my game privately, I charge £10 ( say ) they take the disk install - it is still registered to me- they are then paying a fee to ( also ) buy the game.

Unless there is a feature at install that asks if you have bought the game from the previous owner, then it would deactivate from my account - I suppose. Dependent on the trade in and sale values through shops, and the install value via taken as a purchase from a friend and installing via their account to their console. Private sales could be valueless.

My brain hurts. Have I got the logic right here.

Why not throw a shit fit? They're taking one of the advantages consoles had over the PC and throwing it out the door. I'm okay with buying a game on steam that I'll never be able to sell used or lend to a buddy because I get all of the advantages that come with it being a PC game along with it. If the inability to do what I wish with a game after purchasing it comes along with the whole console experience, then it is far less palatable to me, particularly if competing consoles stick with the old ways.

@danielmackie_photography:

There will be no private sales with this system. MS's wording specifically includes the words "at retail." They want to control use sales in order to wring money from it. This is my biggest issue on the whole matter.

For crying out loud. Just give us an FAQ page or something, otherwise you're going to lose quite a section of your market.

Exactly what I was thinking! I'm already pissed that my digital arcade collect wont transfer, but for microsoft to sit here and blame the press for your miss information is just a bad move.

I can't help but feel like MS is just using all this as a litmus test to see what boundaries and envelopes they can push. I'm convinced they're more in control of the situation then this perceived blunder suggests. One of two things will happen...

1) They create something in the middle where this whole used game thing still turns them a profit and gamers just accept it with the feeling "at least it's not as bad as what they planned originally" or

2) They'll backpedal on the entire thing and act like they're doing consumers a huge favor and "giving the consumer what they want" to try to gain positive PR

in the mean time i hope Sony is preparing their PR people for E3 and how to handle this situation because sure journalist and the gaming media are going to want to try to nail down Sony's approach to the whole used games issue which is certainly going to affect how MS moves forward on the situation

Apparently Major Nelson is the present Xbox media relations guru.

This should go well.

i feel like this the point where they need to backpedal if they want to try to make this right. Although i understand why this pissed Patrick off so much. Microsoft went through all this trouble to get the press to report on their new console then giving them the shaft as soon as that falls apart.

I seriously DO NOT understand what all of you people are upset about. (including Patrick K.) Are you really that upset about Microsoft not telling us exactly how a possible/rumored used game market for Digital Media might actually work (if it exists) for a console that HAS YET to even have a LAUNCH DAY announced yet!?!?

Is that what you are upset about?

Seriously, you people have absolutely NO patience. . . . at all. We will find out all of this information in due time.

The argument should really be about whether or not Digital Media is a good thing in general for the consumer. Of course, that really isn’t much of a discussion because it obviously isn’t.

Here is my prediction:

There will still be game discs but there will also be digital game downloads. Both of

these will be the same price. You will NOT be able to re-sell your “used” digital games.

Companies will print less and less game discs (over time) in order to create a manufactured rarity of actual game discs, in an effort to force people to move towards an ALL Digital Game Download market. They will do this because (surprise surprise) they MAKE MORE MONEY by doing so.

Once sales of Digital Downloads outnumber the amount of sales of physical copies we (the general consuming public) will be presented with the FALSE fact that “people in general prefer Digital Downloads to physical boxed copies of product.” This will then be used as the reason why ALL games (in the future) will be COMPLETELY digital)

So, the reason why this WILL HAPPEN is because companies want to make as much money as possible. Consumers will be forced to go along with this because we do not make our own games/game consoles.

Furthermore:

This is not JUST a “Microsoft thing.” Sony will do the same thing as well as ANY OTHER hardware manufacturer.

Someone responded to one of my posts earlier stating something to the effect that “Microsoft has to implement a used Digital Market because they would lose out on a lot of sales if they didn’t because the people that buy used games would not buy those games if they were not receiving a discount to begin with.” I do NOT agree with this statement. People buy used games because they are cheaper than brand new products. If people were not allowed to buy products at a cheaper price they would still pay full price. Also, Microsoft/Sony/developers do NOT receive ANY money from the re-sale of physical discs. Only Gamestop/BestBuy/etc… do. This is why the major game manufactures (as well as developers) want to move to a total online Digital Market. That way they can charge us FULL PRICE ALL THE TIME! That is the point.

If you guys really want to do yourselves a favor you will NOT buy ANY digital games. That way business will move away from an “all digital market.” Of course, people (in general) do not have the self discipline or principles required to actually stop themselves from buying “stuff” that they want. I mean, no doubt there will be one title in the future that is just “so good” that “everyone has to have it,” at which point, even though it is only offered digitally, we will all buy it.

Thank you to those who actually read this whole rant.

@grandizer:

Or, Microsoft could just state something once and mean it. I mean, that's the point of a "press conference".

I totally get what you're saying, but I like it when a company has their shit together. When it comes to investing my money in the next 10+ years of a console, it's not unreasonable to want that. Yeah it's early, so that's why no sane person is making a decision right now. However, as of now...I don't like where MS is going.

I feel like that's what Alex and Patrick's articles are stating.

Not buying any of the new toys until they are older and reduced in price. I've never bought a launch device, the used market I've entered is the used console market, along with the used games. If Microsoft wants to backpedal and spin in the mud, it won't affect me in the upfronts, and if Sony wants to patent a used game killer and not use it, fine, but I'll keep an eye on them as well. As for Nintendo, I haven't had a piece of their hardware for decades, but I wish them all well as far as companies go. And my PC is my work and entertainment but not my gaming box ~ I'd buy Civilization or SimCity, but they've developed some nasty always on quirks as drm.

@porjos:

So I just want to get this right.

You are saying (at the same time) that Microsoft has not been clear in their message and so therefore we do not really know what they are going to do in the future, and yet you are also saying that you do not like where they are headed.

Also, you are saying that a company which literally dominates the PC market with their Windows OS and is an international Fortune 500 company - DOESN'T have their "shit together?"

I just wanted to make sure I understand you correctly.

@grandizer: In regards to the Xbox One they do not have their shit together.

They had no grip on their employees in regards to talking to the press so we've gotten numerous conflicting reports. Most of which suggesting all the feared rumors are true.

Now MS has Major Nelson give the closest thing to an official statement and all that amounts to is "Check back with us later."

You said it yourself, they are a company which literally dominates the PC market and is an international fortune 500 company. Yet we're expected to believe they didn't have a detailed info packet set up to answer all the questions and concerns of their next generation gaming console which is due out in six months?

@wiredfolf:

Well, that is kind of my point.

We have a very large company that is successful and obviously has lots of resources, and yet they seemingly have all this "disarray" when talking about this admittedly hot-button topic.

The real question is "why?"

I think everyone is just "jumping the gun" when they IMMEDIATELY assume that Microsoft employees are "idiots" and so on. . .

No one stops to even try to think about the possibility that maybe they are purposefully presenting conflicting information.

So again, "Why?"

I honestly do not know. Maybe you guys are correct and they just messed up. On the other hand, maybe they are doing (like someone else suggested) and "testing the waters" prior to actually implementing anything. But make no mistake, "Always Online - Completely Digital Content" is coming. It is just a matter of time. Again, this is NOT just a Microsoft "thing." EVERYONE is going to do this eventually. I believe Microsoft is simply trying to gauge when will be the best time to do so.

In any event: All you people who want to string up Microsoft Employees by their toenails for simply "messing up their message" need to take a long hard look at your lives and seriously consider where and when it went "wrong."

I mean, how many other companies have "messed up their message" in the past. There was NEVER this amount of UNIVERSAL out pouring of pure HATRED for ANY of these other companies. Seriously! Why do you people just HATE Microsoft so much? For making hardware and software that people use and enjoy all the time? Seriously?!?

Sad to see the enthusiast press get suckered into this false narrative. Why is MS the only one being taken to task when Sony said the exact same thing about used games and every rumor (just as everything pertaining to MS' policies are just rumor at this point) indicates they are looking at the exact same solution. Why haven't these game sites asked Sony for clarification on their policy and where are the negative articles on Sony's non-response?

The big third-party publishers are the ones pushing for this and understand that it will only work if they get both MS and Sony on board. Either both will do this or neither will do this - so why are "journalists" like Klepek (who should know better) letting the fanboys drive the story towards their preferred multibillion corporation?

We both don't know anything about the future, we're just debating about our feelings with the information we know... because that's all we can do.

Also, beware of thinking any company, no matter how large, is not infallible. As a subscriber of both the Surface RT and Windows Phone 7, I can tell you how sucky the Marketplace is. Also, perhaps you are aware of things like Windows Vista and the almost crippling Red Ring of Death. Billions of dollars and years of development still do not make things infallible.

Regardless, I don't want this to turn into me bashing Microsoft. in fact, If I do choose PS4, it will be my first Sony product.

@grandizer:

I never said I hated Microsoft, but this whole situation does leave me disappointed in them.

It is all speculation at this point, you are correct. This could in fact be some big plan to turn the entire internet into one huge focus group, but again it's all assumptions and hearsay.

I haven't written off MS as a company but given what I do know about the coming Xbone and the potential features and policies it may have, I feel compelled to speak out against it because many of these new elements seem gimmicky or at best nothing to write home about. I was disappointed in the Kinect (yes they say the first Kinect was largely a beta, but they certainly didn't advertise that when selling it for a couple hundred dollars), I already have a DVR to watch TV on and a PC where I use Skype. Generally everything they covered in the conference was underwhelming to me and really didn't make me want to invest in such an expensive system. Then all this other information started trickling out...

So yea, while I don't hate them, the general way they've presented the new Xbox was not up to the standards I'd expect from such a large and influential company. They may in fact put all our worries to rest in the coming months, or even blow us all away at E3, but personally it'll take a lot for me to reconsider Xbone as a future purchase.

The decision to go on tv was a bad one.

The decision to name it xbox one was a bad one.

The decision to make connect mandatory was a bad one.

The decision to make mandatory install games was a bad one.

The decision to make it an entertainment hub instead of a game console was a bad one.

But I'm sure you'll get to play Halo 19, Madden 2059, and Call of Duty: All Dogs go to Heaven. So people will buy it.

I'm scared. I just want to play video games

To be fair, I don't think mandatory installs were so much a decision as a necessity of the size of next gen games (in bytes I mean, not scale) and the relatively slow speed of blu-ray.

As for this article, I find Patrick's reasoning here a little perplexing:

Since the details of those arrangements is clearly changing, the onus would be on Microsoft to make the coming changes abundantly transparent.

If the situation is a fluid one, how exactly is Microsoft going to make coming changes transparent? A paragraph earlier you are giving Microsoft shit (rightfully I'd say) about not having a clear message about used games at their unveiling, but now the only way back from the precipice is to muddy the waters even more, possibly needlessly? I don't see how that helps them at all. No, I have to say the message Major Nelson is putting out there now is the one they should have gone with all along. Until whatever their plan is is finalized and set in stone, they only do themselves harm by commenting before then.

Whatever hit they would have taken in the press or in reaction from gamers for essentially "no comment"-ing the issue is a fraction of what it is now. If the solution is something palatable to most people, they've hurt themselves needlessly in the mean time. If it's something 3rd parties are pushing and Sony will have to follow suit, they should have waited and that way they aren't taking the full brunt of the criticism. If they were stupid enough to have made a devil's bargain with 3rd parties that Sony didn't/wouldn't make, then they only have themselves to blame, but the likelihood of that is very slight, I'd estimate.

Ask yourself that age old maxim, "Cui bono?" Who benefits? Putting an end to used game sales does next to nothing to Microsoft/Sony's bottom line, while it would be a huge financial boon to 3rd party publishers. Why would Microsoft take even the PR hit for almost no benefit if they know the competition doesn't have to?

Passive aggressive Patrick is my second favorite Patrick.

I had planned to buy the xbox one on pre-order and even said to the guy in my local GAME store (in the UK, the main gaming retail chain here) that "unless xbox is a total & utter disaster I will be pre-ordering the console with you next week". The retail store manager asked me "what would you regard as a total & utter disaster?" I replied "probably if they are asking me to spend a big chunk of that money on crap I don't care about such as TV, music and that awful kinect bollocks. That would be a disaster...but I'm sure it won't happen, they can't be THAT stupid".

Needless to say its looking like I'll be buying the PS4 instead now. ;)

Well since some 360 games are still being released at sunset (FUSE, Remember Me, Metro LL, etc), they must have a EULA agreement in place to protect game vendors that will guarantee they have a year or two on the existing system.

But whatever, I won't be buying any further 360 games if I can help it, nor an Xbox One. Frankly I don't see the point. Buy a $60 game for the Xbox One so I can throw it away later when Softy decides to switch back to x86 on the next iteration? Whereas if I had it on the PC the entire time, that game would still be there whether I upgrade my PC with new parts or not. No renewal of XBL either, I'll just have to watch Netflix & other features on something else, like an Apple TV. Hopefully I'll be able to sell off my 360 library for reasonable used prices.

@fiberpay: How does the crow taste? Does the crow taste good?

That's a big shock to me, I am sure to others also, he cant even give a right answer and he's with Microsoft.