Microsoft Digs Bigger Hole Over Used Games

Articles like these are why i'm glad Patrick is at least moving out of the GB office, hopefully he won't be on as often. Sony has been even more shady about their used games approach, yet no article about them. But what else should I expect from Patrick "one side of the story" Klepick.

You were ALWAYS buying JUST A LICENSE to play videogame. Always. This has never changed. You do not own a videogame and you will never own a videogame (unless you make one yourself). You will only ever own a license.

I agree with this. People are blowing this shit so far out of proportion it's ridiculous. The "gaming press" and personalities like the 8-4 guys are also contributing to the problem by not doing proper research, parroting things they've "heard" and indulging in hyperbole.

After their massive back peddling the solution finally given if even accurate given all this sound like a nice trade-off. But that solution comes with not always online but almost-always online. I actually wish there was a have our cake and eat it too solution to installing games and not needing the disc on these new systems that don't require stringent online policies or preventing used sales.

Microsoft is digging a hole with their communication failures. And Sony is capitalizing on it wholly.

That's so sad. I'm halfway through this article and the far better solution was immediately obvious that would make everyone feel better:

Go to your Xbox One dashboard account settings or an xbox.com web interface, opt to "trade in" your account license for a game, and then be given a numeric code or QR image for the game you can then take to a participating reseller (that is to say, Gamestop, and to a lesser extent Best Buy and Amazon) for store credit. They can scan your code at the register and run a check to see if it hasn't been redeemed, then it redeems to the store inventory.

They can also monetize / commoditize trades between people in a similar fashion, by permitting account-level exchanges (i.e. gift "Xx420GaMeRxX" my license for CoD5, or hold it in escrow while he submits a trade for Viva Pinata 3) with a small transactional fee of $1-$5 to avoid frequent trading and lost sales, and justified by keeping all trades and sales valid and safe between two parties (instead of a shady guy in a back alley selling random sequences of numbers as "games" and people getting taken). Alternatively or additionally, make it so a particular license can only be resold or traded once or twice per license, giving legitimate value to non-used "new" license sales. Or make it so traded/used games have multiplayer/access to DLC disabled until that small fee is paid (replacing Project Ten Dollar), but that's a bit more shady.

Key to this is finalizing all sales, trades, and trade-ins at the console dashboard. This would make it completely unnecessary to require a daily check in.

That allows Gamestop to stay in business and keep selling X1 games, but also drives out mom & pop used game shops. Microsoft can get their taste by requiring resellers to pay for access to the Azure network, and percentages of each resold inventory license to the respective publisher.

It will also require they put out license "check" software/apps that allow you as a customer to query the status of a given license (instead of just locations to redeem licenses). Other than that, it should maintain the status quo while giving license holders the cut of resale profits they've always wanted.

I'd actually be ok with that scenario. It addresses my only real criticism of the Steam system. That said, if PS4 rejects this entirely and goes back to what we've been doing, then so long Xbox One. Some conservatives stockpile weapons for fear the goverment will collapse, I'd rather stockpile versatile hard copies of games for fear that company networks will collapse.

Considering this is an obvious push towards consoles being digital only in the long run.... Thanks Steam fanboys, you fucked us all.

MS is just trying to get rid of the middle men (gamestop, bestbuy, ebay, amazon.) I don't have a problem with it since some games that these stores sale for $29.99 are not even worth $10. That being said, they shouldn't open their mouths until they have all the specifics.

Xbox go home.

Funny thing is, we wouldn't even be having this conversation if they hadn't initiated it. They had to tell us at some point, but they could have deflected until they had a coherent policy in place. Saying nothing would have been better than speculating and contradicting themselves.

Whatever position Microsoft backpedals itself into on used games in the end, it's pretty clear that they're attempting to restrict our rights as consumers. We have the right to trade, sell or lend legitimately purchased copyrighted materials. I can lend you a book, sell him a CD or trade DVDs with that guy. It applies to video games as well, that's why gamestop et al exist. They facilitate our ability to sell the copyrighted games we've bought.

The scenario Klepek mentioned with turning in licences for points (they announced they're removing points, by the way)? Hell no, that's not acceptable to me. If I want to sell the stuff I bought for cash I damn well have the right to do so. The Azure service thing Microsoft mentioned retailers will have to use to be able to buy used games? Again, unfuckingacceptable. If I want to sell my game to the kid down the street, I have the right to fucking do so.

They are attempting to turn the purchase of a product, which is both the beginning and end of a consumers relationship with the seller, into the purchase of the rights to use their product, which will leave you reliant on their continued support of the product as well as their permission to take actions with the shit you buy that you already have the right to take. Don't accept this as a reasonable change.

The RROD is the biggest fear I have with a new Xbox.

I don't see the problem with used games. If someone finds a game at a cheaper price and it was used before, so what? This is nothing but industry greed.

Not buying their shiny new box for a long while to come anyways. Reasons:

1. Prices at launch tend to be stupidly high.
2. Launch model flaws (RROD debacle).
3. Games scarce and pricy at launch.
4. HUGE backlog of 360 games on my shelf, both used and some still wrapped ;)

@drneffy said:

Basically if that's how it will work (I have a feeling we won't really know the details until much later), then it's converting every "used" copy out there into a new copy because digital means scratches and other downgrades in used are irrelevant. Unless the disc is completely unreadable, then it should basically be a basic activation process saying "hey, you have a disc, this game isn't tied to your account, pay us for it? yeah do that".

Amidst all discussion, no one has (yet) to dig into the history of used games from the PC side to see how this has been in practice for ages and ages. There was PC gaming and used gaming before Steam deals and such, I wonder what the data from that history will tell us because console-only used markets have worked pretty much the same for many years as they do now.

Also keep in mind the rental business was something that console manufacturers attempted to control and restrict to cut down on what the crew were talking about on the Bombcast weeks ago. At some point the idea of a used game is irrelevant because the discrete data on a disc untied to anything will be irrelevant but so far we are in an immature market for this stuff on consoles and people are naturally hesitant as a result.

I think the real story here is less about the policy and more about the messaging. I bet you one thing, if MS never mentioned anything about it and left it as a question, it would have worked out for them in the end if they decided to announce it later more clearly.

The phrase "carefully unexplained" comes to mind.

@sagalla: I'm not the one looking for confrontation.

It's not impossible, but Sony's already said that their console can be used 100% offline. Whatever Sony's stance is on used games, it won't be as restrictive as Microsoft's.

I think that this doesn't really seem like something they could over look. I feel that they have some news that we do not want to hear, and are hiding that behind some misdirection. Or maybe I am giving them too much credit and they really didn't think people would want the kind of answers they are hiding/unsure of. However, that does seem kind of silly, seeing as there have been rumors and crap addressing some of this stuff. No matter how true or false those rumors were, they got people thinking and asking questions now.

~x Bone

What it comes down to is you are renting games for the XBox One for the full price of a game. Microsoft you are a Greedy Disgrace to the American Race.I refuse and will NOT give Microsoft one more penny of my hard earned money.This is a prime example of the rich getting richer. "Microsoft Definition Greed "

@clarkj1981: Because they're blaming others for their mismanagement of the messaging on where used games will stand with the Xbox One. They're saying that others are being "inaccurate", while they've provided conflicting interviews. They keep changing their tune, and saying their trying to clarify but don't clarify anything.

They're being dishonest. It's to cover their mistakes, but they're still being dishonest.

I agree 100% with Patrick. Microsoft screwed up on the messaging. The conflicting interviews they've given, those mistakes don't fall on anyone else but the people at Microsoft. And they should have known how murky the waters were on this issue. Being completely clear was going to be necessary if pissing less people off.

It's gotten away from them. Really, I don't think there's anything they can do to change the tide on this until E3, where they'll have the spotlight and can be as clear as they want to be on it. For now, they're just going to have to take the hits. They keep trying to "clarify", but it just seems like they're freaking out a little behind the scenes and scrambling to get their shit straight.

Why feel bad for him? He is a total shill through and through. After he went on his podcast and defended those avatars that are not used at all now sooooo hard to the point of telling everyone they were going to spend hours dressing up their avatar and spend tons of money in the store on them, I was just about done. The nail in the coffin for me for him/their PR was when he defended their outrageous stand alone upgradable hdds as being actually pretty cheap.

I hope MS tanks for this. If their RRoD wasn't enough, the Xbox hasn't really done anything for consumers since like 2009.

we simply dont own anything we buy, its a rental agreement till they see fit to disable the product

"Try a little honesty next time?"

--This is way over the top. I don't see how they're being 'dishonest'.

@grandizer: I see what you're saying - as long as they discount games as time goes on (a la Steam) you are right, there is no reason to setup an online marketplace. But thus far, they have been unwilling to do that. There are games out there available for download that are 2-3 years old (even sports games) that are selling for full price - for example NHL 12 is $59.99 when you can find NHL 13 for cheaper than that at many retailers and NHL 12 sells for around $15-20 used. That is free money they are leaving on the table.

@scroll: My bad, take some ritalin and chill out, man :)

@sagalla: And that's an overly dramatic example to use.

@scroll: You said 'a business wouldn't harm it's customers' in general terms so I gave you an example.

Anyway everyone seems to think that Microsoft doesn't get what people want. Of course they do. I don't think they will sell this new box at a loss. They can put it out in the market knowing it's going to do poorly and then roll their Xbox brand onto PCs, tablets, phones, you name it - and stand to do better in the long run

Well, great. I'm glad they felt the need to tell the media they're wrong and not correct them.

@sagalla: Yes because they are completely comparable.

Want to know the honest truth? The GB staff is out of touch with the normal people that play games. Their friends and colleagues are probably all for digital game downloads and not needing a disk or physical thing to play games.

You know what everyone else thinks? Go to any Xbox One related article or video and take a look at the comments. Why do you think people are so mad? It's because they think this is bull shit and they want no part of any of this.

@drneffy:

"Nothing is impossible for those who do not have to do it."

For example: "Just make an online marketplace for used digital content."

There is literally NO REASON for MS or Sony to do any such thing. In fact, they make MORE money by not allowing such a thing. So, maybe they will just to placate all of us. . . but from a finacial standpoint there is no reason for them to commit manpower, time, and money to do ing so.

@grandizer: I would disagree - you can resell digital assets, they just need to setup a system to do it - however, it means cutting out the Gamestop's of the world. The systems would be very simple - I download a digital asset that is tied to my console/account. When I no longer want it, create an online marketplace where I can sell it to whoever wants to buy it at the price I set - could be $10, could be $50. Once the game sells, the publisher gets a cut. The problem is that this creates a virtual currency and eventually most transactions would be made with the virtual currency garnered from previous sales and that virtual currency has no real value to publishers.

Wow. . . . so much Microsoft hate in here.

I love these messages. I am not an advocate for a transition to completely digital game downloads. I don’t like storing a bunch of discs either, but they are FAR superior to owning “nothing.”

Lots of people (including some Giant Bomb staff) have been complaining (for how long now?) that Microsoft and Sony need to just transition to a completely digital marketplace, and then when they appear to be making steps to do so – these same people start complaining about the major flaw with that system of transaction.

Namely: you can’t really re-sell “digital nothing.”

Guess what?!?

That is the nature of the beast !!

This is what you guys have been advocating for and now you have it.

Good job. It seems pretty ridiculous for all of you to complain about this. This is what you wanted in the first place and MS/Sony literally has NO REASON to allow ANYONE to re-sell ANYTHING on their marketplace.

So tough . . . guess what people, businesses like to make money.

It sounds like MS is approaching this with "preferred" used game partners (Gamestop, Best Buy, etc.) and when you trade a game in, it will be deactivated from your account via some use of the Microsoft Azure architecture (this is what will run the used games database). Then Gamestop or whoever can sell the game for whatever they want, no further activation needed since the presence of this game "in the cloud" will be wiped from the original owner's console.

What it will do is prevent lending. If a friend borrows my copy, "the cloud" will see that this copy is installed on my system and he will be offered the opportunity to "buy" the game for the full price, however he will have a digital asset and then be unable to further trade his game.

@scroll: You should try doing some research into the pharmaceutical industry

@sagalla: I find it hard believe a business is actively trying to harm its user base.

People are confused because they think Microsoft is trying to please consumers. Guess what?? They're not

@patrickklepek: GODDAMN, PATRICK! Goin' for the throat with that article. Remind me to never find you in a dark alley...or an internet message board...

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII...think I left my oven on. Gotta go. O_______O

Seriously, though... Thank you for being a member of the press that is willing to be brutal, honest, and upfront by calling Microsoft out on this. Their messaging has been amazingly poor, and if anything, they are alienating the "core gamers" out there. I've heard plenty of non-gamers or "casual gamers" say that they love what they've heard, but every "core gamer" I ask about it at work has repeatedly stated the same thing:

Are they out of their fucking minds?

The whole situation with the Xbox One is a joke, they wont confirm anything, when they do they contradict it seconds later, it seems like they want to actively push gamers into the arms of the compitition. I already have a WiiU, the PS4 didnt impress me so i was really looking forward to getting the new Xbox, but now i cant import my arcade games, i cant (easily) play used games which to be fair, i only buy when new copies are scarce or stupidly expensive, and none of my fighting pads and sticks will work...or maybe they will, again zero confirmation from Microsoft.

They literally wasted half of their conference talking about shit that only American sports fans would get anything out of and then are suprised when Japanese and European gamers meet them with indifference. They have less than two weeks to turn this around, if they dont pull all the stops out for E3 then im 100% out. Its not like im losing anything by buying a PS4 at this point, with Microsoft being so short sighted when it comes to digital purchases ill have to keep a 360 around for the forseeable future now anyway.

If you are yet to decide your line of business do not let your execs answer questions

Sony did what everyone hates. They did not talk

but sometimes silence is better than saying nonsense

More money going to the Publishers if anything and they have shareholders that stop them taking most big risks. Mirror's Edge was a stretch, it didn't pay off for EA and they can't do that too often.

Games studios going bankrupt or whatever is down to bad management if you are saying the used game market contributed to it. It's been in place since the early days and hasn't suddenly mushroomed up to catch them off guard. If your budget is based on the imaginary sales you're missing out on in case somebody buys a used copy then you're doing it wrong.

Lots of people used/use their old games as down-payment for buying brand new ones. Take away the option of trading in a used copy and it means some of them won't buy the next new game at all.

Forget the price drop theory. Remember the 200 MSP Horse Armour DLC for Oblivion? How much is it 7 years later? Still 200MSP. They've been selling full price download versions of full games even now, while you could buy them for a fraction of the price used (or usually brand new too). No reason for them to suddenly change when they can finally cut off their competition.

Some people were bemoaning how cynical the replies were to the EA ends Online Passes thread, hoping that EA were doing it as a response to benefit consumers. This just shows how right to be cynical they were.

Most of the issues with the Xbox One don't really affect me. Honestly. It's just the principle of it all. I'm an Xbox person and going into this generation, sticking with Xbox was pretty much a given. Now, I don't know if I can justify going with the Xbox One because of all their dumbassery. The only thing right now stopping me from jumping to PS4 completely is Gears of War. If Sony manages to do a deal with Epic and gets Gears to go multi-platform, Xbox will straight up have nothing for me. If this nonsense continues, I might have to jump ship regardless and miss out.

#SickBurns

Which they can't, because it seems very obvious to me that it's not Microsoft who is the driving factor behind this feature, but it's the publishers. They most likely demanded a feature like this, which means Sony will have it too in some shape or form.

There is only 1 way for Microsoft to bounce back from this. Come Clean and not at E3. Either come out with the full details already and apologize for the lack of a clear and answer. If they do that, and its as bad as the rumors say, at least they can save them from their fanboys who are pissed about it. The longer they go without all the details the further in the hole they will dig themselves. If they don't talk about it at all at E3 they can forget any real sales for their betamax player.

Sony has the exact same or very similar policy in place and they're just standing aside, whilst MS takes a kicking.

Clever Sony :)

I also don't care about used games going away, more money going to the game creators, means a healthier industry, which leads to more risks being taken. This is where the Mirrors Edge's and the Psychonauts come from.

Also, think about how many studios have gone in the last couple of years and then how many of them actually made good games. Used isn't the only problem obviously but you're naive if you don't think its a factor.

Plus, in theory new releases could (and should) drop in price if they're making money on each copy that actually gets played. Though thats highly unlikely... I'm not choosing the side of the corporation, they just want your money. I just want nice things.

So really all Sony has to do is say "we're not changing anything about how used games work, gift your games to friends if you like". And not only will they look like the good guys, they'll probably steal some customers too.