Something went wrong. Try again later

Giant Bomb News

409 Comments

On Games, Reviews, And Criticism -- Part 1

Patrick and BioWare senior designer Manveer Heir begin a three-part conversation about the role of criticism in today's writing about games.

No Caption Provided

When Simon Parkin published his review of Uncharted 3: Drake’s Deception at Eurogamer, a mild firestorm erupted, launching a contentious debate about the role of criticism during the review process.

Parkin’s review took issue with the Uncharted design philosophy as a whole, but still awarded the game an 8/10 at the bottom of the page--a respectable score from an outlet as tough as Eurogamer!

No Caption Provided

Fans, developers, and even some writers wondered aloud whether Parkin had picked the appropriate venue for his examination of Naughty Dog’s choices. I wrote my own piece about the ensuing response, which prompted a more intimate conversation about the subject with game developer Manveer Heir, who is currently a senior designer on Mass Effect 3 at BioWare Montreal.

Heir has been kicking around the industry for a while now, having landed at BioWare Montreal and the Mass Effect series after five years with Raven Software in Wisconsin, the home state of my dearest football rivals. Heir is known for his outspoken nature, and isn’t one to walk away from a controversial subject. In fact, it was Heir that proposed we start a back-and-forth letter series about game reviews and publish it.

I suggested we throw it up on Giant Bomb in its entirety, and he agreed.

If you’re not familiar with Heir, you can read his dusty blog Design Rampage (which he promises to update), follow him on Twitter, scope this Kill Screen interview about his early years, or load up a Gamasutra interview about race.

Take it away, Manveer.

Note: This exchange took place over email, and I've done minimal editing to reflect the casual style.

--

Patrick,

Heir is working on Mass Effect 3, a sequel to one of this generation's most beloved games.
Heir is working on Mass Effect 3, a sequel to one of this generation's most beloved games.

Thanks for agreeing to discuss the role of game criticism and reviews with me. It's something that has been bothering me for some time now, and I wanted to discuss it with someone who works in the field, instead of just talking to other people like myself who often bitch on Twitter. So you know where I'm coming from, I'll give you a brief background about myself before I became a game developer. I used to cover the news, write previews, reviews, and do interviews for the enthusiast press (what is now known as bloggers) for a couple sites when I was in high school and early college (late 90s, early 2000s). It was a means to an end to get connected to the game development community, instead of wanting to be a journalist, but hey, it worked. More specifically, I don't think I was particularly good at my job. I judged games on 100-point scales that broke scores down into component parts like graphics, sound, etc. (something I find abhorrent now in my life). I say this so you understand that I've actually done the job (to a novice extent) for over five years, and so I understand some of the pressures reviewers are under in today's climate, as well as how the job goes.

My issues currently stem from games criticism and games reviewing, and should they even be the same thing. I am of the mind that they should not, and here's why. I should explicitly note that all my opinions are my own and not my employer's. Games criticism is new, it's in its infancy, and it's growing with every day. Game reviews, on the other hand, have been consumed for a very long time. As a developer, I love game criticism. I love reading my issues of Kill Screen, I love reading how someone finds a game sexist or offensive due to certain elements that are engrained in our culture, when we never stop to sit and think WHY they are engrained. I love all of that, I want more criticism. As a developer, I thrive and grow off criticism. I need it from my peers and those outside to better my own sensibilities, lest my colleagues and I rest on our collective laurels in the future.

But when we give those criticisms a score, we do something else. We make the criticism the focus of the entire product. To use specific examples, let's look at Simon Parkin's Eurogamer review of Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception. Parkin is an author I greatly respect and someone whose work as a critic I find to be on point often times, and his review is recent, which is why I cite it. In his review he states "Uncharted 3 is the most exciting game in the world, but only until you deviate from the script." He goes on to expand on how the game makes you feel like nothing more than an "interactive butler" at times.

Now, this is a criticism of how linear the game is. Like Uncharted 2, Uncharted 3 is very linear. In fact, like Modern Warfare 2, it is very linear. Like Gears of War 3, it is very linear. Like countless other 90+ rated titles, it is very linear. Many blockbuster games that are coming out are very linear. This is the choice they have made. All of them have this problem. The issue I have isn't with this criticism, but rather the calling out of this criticism on Uncharted 3 as a reason for a rating. Because, if that's the case, then shouldn't Modern Warfare 2 have similar criticisms embedded in it and review score docked accordingly? Yet a review of that game by Parkin doesn't mention, in-depth, the linearity issues like it does with Uncharted 3.

If a sequel is just following the path established by the other games, is that a knock against it?
If a sequel is just following the path established by the other games, is that a knock against it?

The issue does not lie with the criticism. The issue lies with what the game is. I do not judge a pie poorly because it is not cake. Both are delicious desserts, and there is a time and a place for both (the place, specifically, is in my belly). So when talking about player agency regarding linear vs. open-world games, I find these to be drastically different styles that are like comparing pies to cakes. I have a strong preference to see more player agency, and I, too, get frustrated when it is stripped away from me in games. But how do we reconcile this when all of our games that are linear have the same base problem? Do they all just get judged down a point because they are linear? Do we make sure all reviewers from a publication know that when they have different reviewers judge a game?

It seems difficult to handle things this way. I think making pointed criticisms about Uncharted 3's linearity, and then potentially tying it in into the entire industry's reliance on scripted narrative, Parkin could have made a wonderful piece that wasn't overshadowed by the 8/10 score he gave that sent fans into an uproar. The existence of the score took the piece away from criticism of the work and into a review of the work, and sadly, to me, it took away Parkin's ability to actually make a wonderful point because people got too up in arms about a number. To me, a review serves a different purpose. Criticism exists absolutely. Reviews exist relatively. What I mean is, I don't rate Iron Man the movie the same way I may rate Crash. However, if you asked me what I thought of both pieces I would say, in a word, "must see." But clearly their goals are different; one is a well-done piece of Hollywood blockbuster and the other is a poignant piece about race relations in contemporary society. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Iron Man. Sometimes I'm in the mood for Crash. Sometimes I'm in the mood for pie. Ok, I'm almost always in the mood for pie. But I think you get the point.

Shouldn't we then review our games in the same light? Shouldn't a game that is trying to be a linear piece of Hollywood blockbuster be rated against how those types of games typically play and the expectation of the audience? Shouldn't a review tell me if this piece of work is worth my time or not? Is that not a different question than "does this piece of work have flaws"? Trying to relate Uncharted 2 to something like Dark Souls is very hard to do, and I think we go down a bad path when we try to do it.

Let's keep criticizing games. Let's do it louder than ever. The development community needs it! But let's not mix our critique with our reviews. To me one is about recommendations to an audience, and the other is about the state of the art. The latter is far more useful than the former in my world. I'm all for the abolishment of reviews, but I think sites like yours may take a readership hit if that happens. So, without that happening, I think we should separate the two. Am I crazy? Do I have the wrong expectations for what the function of the two are? Or are my opinions just colored too darkly from my life as a developer who has to live with the score of reviews? Let me know your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Manveer

--

Manveer,

Skyward Sword is a terrific Zelda game, but it's also a very familiar game for many reasons.
Skyward Sword is a terrific Zelda game, but it's also a very familiar game for many reasons.

One of the things I love about the video games industry is our collective commitment to self-reflection, a willingness to open ourselves up in the pursuit of becoming better players, creators or writers. In my case, I'm a journalist first and a critic second, a path I started walking down in high school, when an English teacher suggested the best way to ensure I could make a buck putting words on a page was journalism. I'd been writing about video games earlier than that, however, having attended my first E3 back in 1998. If memory serves me right, I was 14 back then, and I've been writing about games in some form since then, attending college for print journalism and rotating between news posts at various outlets.

And while reporting is my daily bread and butter, I'm also a reviewer, having recently endured the trial-by-fire that was reviewing a new Zelda game--The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword. My experience giving the latest Zelda a less-than-perfect score fits right in to this conversation, as it was the first review I'd written after reading Simon's review of Uncharted 3 and writing a follow-up editorial that criticized the hyperbolic response from fans.

Before I launch into my own process, perhaps we should back up and examine the purpose of a review. Until only recently, reviews have had more in common with what you'd read in Consumer Reports than a serious critical analysis, an attempt to explain what a game is, isn't and whether it's worth spending any money on. That alone is useful to a great many people, and part of the reason reviews are so important to video games in particular is because, individually, they cost more money than other mediums. You don't feel as burned about wasting $10 on the latest bucket of CGI from Michael Bay compared to shelling out $60 at GameStop, realizing the marketing mislead you, and having nothing but a set of achievements to show for it. There is a very real, important role for reviews that intends to accomplish no more than answering the question of yes or no.

But is that all we should expect from our reviews? Often times, we already know if we're going to buy a game or not, and a review is just a way to read about the game in some opinionated specificity before the game unlocks on Steam. For that audience, of which I'd argue there's a very large one visiting most enthusiast publications, a typical review doesn't provide any real service. As publications evolve, game companies have only themselves to blame for the predicament we're now in. Metacritic has its own issues, but the importance publishers have placed upon Metacritic is the bigger problem, and it's clear publications are beginning to understand the power of Metacritic to varying degrees. For some, it's a recognition that reviews may not impact video game sales in any meaningful way, but the reviews (and the scores attached) are, in fact, meaningful, as publishers have made them important, and the words that appear in those reviews suddenly take on a different weight.

Few took issue with the script-driven design in Uncharted and Uncharted 2, but Uncharted 3 took heat.
Few took issue with the script-driven design in Uncharted and Uncharted 2, but Uncharted 3 took heat.

I don't want this to become yet another conversation about Metacritic, as it's only part of the issue, and the evolution of the review seems more encouraged by the homogeneous nature of so many of them. Unless I'm seeking out the opinions of a specific author, I'm not interested in reading a dozen glowing reviews of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. I want to read the review from the one guy that fucking hated it, the guy who wants to make the argument about why it's actually terrible. Maybe I don't end up agreeing with this hypothetical guy, but I don't need my opinions validated, I need my opinions challenged.

You do point to one real problem with game reviews that publications deal with in different ways. Edge does not specify who actually reviewed a game. Edge is known for being tough, so when Edge proclaims your game is worthy of a 10 (which, for the record, does not mean perfect!), that actually means something. Most publications, however, have a byline in the review, and when it comes to games that don't receive 10/10 or 5/5, the comparative analysis begins. "Well," so the argument goes, "they gave Skyward Sword and Fruit Ninja Kinect a 4/5, so they're both of equal quality." This isn't fair to either game or the reviewer. I'm not of the mind a publication should find itself beholden to making sure its reviews are wholly consistent against everything that has come before it, as games are good, bad and weird for entirely individual reasons that aren't comparable.

What a 4/5 means for Fruit Ninja is a bit different than what 4/5 means for Skyward Sword.
What a 4/5 means for Fruit Ninja is a bit different than what 4/5 means for Skyward Sword.

And here's how I'll circle back to my Skyward Sword review. The Zelda series has existed for more than 20 years, essentially becoming a genre unto itself. This happens to many longtime franchises, and it's happening before our eyes with Call of Duty. The reviews for Modern Warfare 3 almost universally ding the game for being more of the game, but the game's sales suggest that doesn't mean very much to the fans--they want more of the same. The struggle for the reviewer, then, is the audience he's writing to. Haven't most Call of Duty fans made up their mind about whether they are buying the new Call of Duty? Is there anyone who is really "on the fence" about buying Modern Warfare 3? Knowing that, a review that's targeted directly at Call of Duty fans isn't much use to anybody at all, and launching into a larger criticism of this subgenre could be useful to someone like myself, who isn't really interested in yet another on-rails shooter. Parkin didn't review Modern Warfare 3, so we can't predict what he would have said about that one, but the Uncharted series falls into the same boat, and writing 1,000 words about how "Did you like Uncharted 2? Let me tell you why you would like Uncharted 3!" isn't much use, and a grand critique of the foundational philosophy of the series' game design is only possible with the perspective of three games.

With Skyward Sword, I found myself as someone who was no longer satisfied with many of the tropes that had come to define the Zelda series, even if Skyward Sword is a game that works within them very well. The review I wrote, if successful, will read like a five to someone who doesn't have the same hangups, but I'm not that person and I can't write a review for that person. I can only hope to string together a series of words and sentences that allow them to see why I came to my conclusion, and how they might draw another one. But writing a review of Skyward Sword that ignored everything around it would be purposeful ignorance, and a disservice to the same amount of lavish, immaculate detail Nintendo spent crafting the game.

The easy way out would be to drop scores, but let's not kid ourselves, as that won't happen. What's the middle ground?

Good luck finishing Mass Effect,

Patrick

Look for the next installment of our three-part conversation on Monday. Want more pieces like this? Let me know.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

409 Comments

Avatar image for deactivated-6041dd7056393
deactivated-6041dd7056393

691

Forum Posts

53

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Game reviews in their current form are outdated and not really useful or entertaining to anyone savvy enough to be using websites such as this in the first place. I certainly agree that reviews with scores need to go away, so that it will then be up to these writers to actually write something worth reading, as oppose to sweating over whether that 2 out of 5 is good consumer purchasing advice. Games, like any piece of art or entertainment, can only be talked about in almost entirely subjective terms and trying to do anything other than that is delusional, in my opinion.

Avatar image for xsheps
Xsheps

123

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Edited By Xsheps

The problem is that gaming is such a relatively new media so people have trouble criticizing games and also trouble taking criticism about games. Writers are not up in arms about the New York Times Book Review or others, reviewers are fickly and meant to be. Like Walter Mossberg says of his tech reviews, he is always stating an opinion, like a food critic or movie critic. No one is trying to find the truth and there is no such thing as a fair or unfair review. If someone wants to judge a game based on the universe of potential games rather than on its peers of linear games, so be it. If people are too immature to accept subjective scores from reviewers, then they will have to deal, reviewers should not at all cater to complaints about reviews.

Avatar image for baal_sagoth
Baal_Sagoth

1644

Forum Posts

80

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 10

Edited By Baal_Sagoth

Quite an interesting format to present a discussion. I'd be happy to see more content presented in this fashion.

I understand the importance of metacritic scores and critical reception for a product in a very detached, abstract way. I do not understand however, how you'd possibly be this fucking obsessed about these numbers. Is monetary profit really everything to developers today? I understand that content producers still need to earn a damn living at the end of the day, but review scores seem like a relatively weak scapegoat for developer's frustrations with their games' reception. CoD, for example, has been criticised to no end in the "enthusiast press" but still sells like crazy because the fans are perfectly happy with it. If you piss your fucking pants about gamers saying their piece about your game you should maybe just stay away from criticism since you certainly aren't capable of taking it. I understand that, since it's a very difficult skill to master, but I don't see the overall problem with giving games a score. The human brain, unfortunately, needs these limited abstractions to function effectively.

I disagree whole-heartedly with the notion that there should be a strong disparity between a number-based score and a "critique" of a game. I do wish people just were above the need for a stupid fucking numerical value, but I fear we aren't evolved that far. On top of that, there's an easy fix for game producers: don't give websites access! If you want to control your message 100% than do just that in your advertising. You only miss out on overly-critical fools like me and can manipulate your sheep-customers at your leisure.

The great irony in this batlle of the minds as I see it is: game companies need (positive) reviews more than customers do. I switched to podcasts, blogs, forum posts etc. as a main source a long time ago. It's the marketing guys that keep pushing for 100-fucking-percent on metacritic, 5/5 on giantbomb and other such nonsense. Why do they do it? Because it is still effective! An informed fan does need a point value a lot less than game devs do.

Avatar image for hermes
hermes

3000

Forum Posts

81

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 7

Edited By hermes

Great article. Keep them coming...

OT: I do agree with Manveer. I think the article in Eurogamer does have a lot of valid points, but the mistake Parkin did was to include it in the context of the review, because most of the criticism gets lost the moment he says its a 8.5... I think his piece would have worked a lot better if it was an article, more than the review.

Also, I think a lot of people go to reviews to feel validated. Or, at least, to try to validate their opinion when someone challenge it (damn comment section in those articles, right?). Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this problem to begin with...

Avatar image for timefugitive
TimeFugitive

86

Forum Posts

639

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 5

Edited By TimeFugitive

I enjoyed this article, thanks for giving the different perspectives. I'm excited to read the other parts.

Avatar image for assinass
AssInAss

3306

Forum Posts

2420

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 3

Edited By AssInAss
Avatar image for cojack426
cojack426

34

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Edited By cojack426

Good stuff Patrick, really enjoyed reading this article.

Avatar image for kist
kist

220

Forum Posts

52

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 9

Edited By kist

Interesting, this is where Patrick does well for Giantbomb. News and pieces like this

Avatar image for ascholzk
ascholzk

290

Forum Posts

26

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 0

Edited By ascholzk

The way game publishers rely on Metacritic scores is just awful. Great article Patrick!

Avatar image for tofin
Tofin

184

Forum Posts

56

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 7

User Lists: 2

Edited By Tofin

Oh, I'm going to enjoy this. Great read and I'm looking forward to Monday.

There are people who hate Patrick?

Avatar image for christoffer
Christoffer

2409

Forum Posts

58

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Edited By Christoffer

This is great stuff.

I haven't reflected on reviews in this way before but I can understand both angles. The first thing that jump out on me was this:

"To me, a review serves a different purpose. Criticism exists absolutely. Reviews exist relatively"

What meaning do trivial critisism have on a larger scale? I can go on and on about the flaws of Skyrim but it doesn't change the fact that I love it and I think everyone should play it. Personally, reviews doesn't give me much since I follow game coverage pretty close and know what I like. But I think most game enthusiasts are like me... but then, who are the reviews for?

Anyways, thanks for bringing me something to ponder about.

Avatar image for icon
Icon

26

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Edited By Icon

I take issue with the pie analogy. Parkin clearly defines his argument early on in the review, and he is not critiquing Uncharted 3 because it is not a cake. He is critiquing Uncharted 3 because it is a pie inside of a cake.

gets to the heart of the issue in his great post: the public simply doesn't care for criticism. Criticism, sadly, is for enthusiasts. I disagree with his, and Manveer's, stance that reviews and criticism should be separated, however. They are one in the same. A review is criticism. While the language in most video game reviews is more casual and less technical than the language in film theory or certain book reviews, they both challenge the work's worth.

And maybe I'm wrong with the 'less technical ' claim. Game reviews have developed their own language, especially in the last 5 years. Maybe jankiness is the new mise-en-scène and GiantBomb will pioneer work in the field of Jank Theory!

Avatar image for coreymw
coreymw

284

Forum Posts

4

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

Edited By coreymw

@bcjohnnie: To review a game based on its merits, for me, means to judge or review it based on the quality of gameplay, performance, story, what-have-you. As Jeff says, review the game you paid $60 for. I don't want to read a review for Uncharted 3 that references Uncharted 2, I've played Uncharted 2 and therefore have no need for it in a review for the follow up.

So far as personal feelings on game mechanics, story, narrative and the like, I don't like the same things Ryan or Jeff might enjoy in a game, so for them to say something like "Oh, I hate linear gameplay and this game is nothing but" is detrimental to the review as I see it, that isn't useful to me. I want to know if the game is laden with bugs, a high level view of the story, interesting and new gameplay mechanics, whatever it might be.

I think, depending on the reviewer, personal opinions could prevent them from providing an objective review of the game. If I review Uncharted 3 and say that the entire thing is linear, and i hate that, I'm going to rate it lower. Obviously that's what makes the difference between a good objective review, and a poor subjective one.

There's a difference between a review having personality, and being filled with subjective opinions on mechanics and things. I'm all for a reviewer gushing about fantastic contextual experiences or mentioning game-ending bugs. I don't want a bullet-point list of features, but I don't want to read a review that's nothing but personal preference.

Avatar image for clank543
clank543

102

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 1

User Lists: 1

Edited By clank543

Totally agree with Manveer. Uncharted 3 was my personal GOTY, and I think it got undeservedly bashed on several websites because of what it is. If I'm sitting over at Naughty Dog and read the Eurogamer review, I would just be thinking to myself, "Well, he says that he doesn't like what we set out to do. There's not really too much about the quality of what we did or how it is performed, but basically he's using our game as a platform for his problems with the game industry as a whole. Thanks!"

Personally, I don't care about the score because my score would be different and I'm fine with that. However, it's the way he used the game as a personal punching bag just because it does a lot of things that the industry has become acquainted to over the years, all be it very well.

I don't have time to play many video games anymore, and while I can see video game journalists getting bored of the same stuff over and over again, I don't because I usually only get to play 1 game a month or every 2 months. I'm never going to play Skyrim or Dark Souls because it doesn't fit into my lifestyle or schedule. And for me in 2011, if I'm looking for a 10 hour game with some fun, easily accessible multiplayer, and a tight, action packed campaign, Uncharted 3 was the best decision for me this year.

Avatar image for devwil
DevWil

976

Forum Posts

8022

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 11

User Lists: 7

Edited By DevWil

this is really cool.

i like the distinction between criticism and reviews, even if i don't necessarily agree with the conclusion drawn from it in this piece.

Avatar image for jazz_lafayette
Jazz_Lafayette

3897

Forum Posts

844

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 14

Edited By Jazz_Lafayette

Great work, Patrick. This is the kind of thoughtful discussion I can't get enough of.

Avatar image for assinass
AssInAss

3306

Forum Posts

2420

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 3

Edited By AssInAss

My future of reviews would be if they did read like criticism rather than a product report, and there were no scores. Most reviews just sound like they're justifying the $60 price tag when I think that purpose is redundant as Klepek says, "Often times, we already know if we're going to buy a game or not, and a review is just a way to read about the game in some opinionated specificity before the game unlocks on Steam. For that audience, of which I'd argue there's a very large one visiting most enthusiast publications, a typical review doesn't provide any real service."

The public just looks to reviews as "confirmation bias" which is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Look at the people who go to Metacritic just to pick on the reviewer who gave the lowest score to a game.

Avatar image for govannan
Govannan

28

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 1

Edited By Govannan

Your point about seeking out the review of the one guy who absolutely hated the game is something that I do all the time. Great piece, can't wait to read the rest of the correspondence.

Avatar image for claude
Claude

16672

Forum Posts

1047

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 18

Edited By Claude

I really enjoyed reading that. Maybe I learned something, probably not. Thanks for posting.

Avatar image for spaceyoghurt
Spaceyoghurt

166

Forum Posts

2

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Edited By Spaceyoghurt

Great stuff Patrick, keep it up!

Avatar image for sin13
sin13

275

Forum Posts

214

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 11

Edited By sin13

I love the Uncharted and Zelda series, but UC3 and Skyward Sword got way over rated this past year. Both those games had some awful game design choices in them that made them extremely difficult for me to enjoy.

UC3: Bad aiming and input latency, poorly designed encounters with way too many grenades and rocket launcher enemies.

Skyward: Game is too bloated, too much backtracking and reuse of past dungeons. Even with Wii motion plus Link only does what I intended him to do half the time.

Looking at the complaints for both those games, I guess it comes down to the controls for me. If I can't get to happen on screen what I intended to happen because of the controls, it kills the game for me. It causes a disconnect in my brain and results in nothing but frustration.

The fact that these games got perfect 10's from various sites blows my mind. Those reviewers start to have less credibility to me and I start to wonder if their judgement is clouded.

Avatar image for christoffer
Christoffer

2409

Forum Posts

58

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Edited By Christoffer

@Icon said:

I disagree with his, and Manveer's, stance that reviews and criticism should be separated, however. They are one in the same. A review is criticism.

I don't think you get his point at all. Ones opinion of a game (or any kind of media) is never the sum of it's parts. Good music can be highly regarded even if the sound isn't top notch. Litterature isn't worse if there's a few typos. I think readers can misunderstand the quality, or the purpose, of a game if the reviewers get into such detail.

Also, you need to untangle that "pie inside of a cake" allegory. Do you suggest Uncharted claimed to be an open-world game inside a linear game? I don't get it?

Avatar image for downtime58
downtime58

234

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Edited By downtime58

Excellent piece of work - the only thing I'd note is this:

Heir points out that the games industry is still in its infancy - which I agree with whole heartedly. To me, The concept of developers publicly questioning reviews by critics underscores the wide gap in maturity (in industry, not people) between entertainment media such as games versus movies or books.

Imagine Roger Ebert gives a movie a poor rating - and Paramount publicly comments that Ebert gave a different similar movie a better rating. Imagine the New York Times giving Stephen King a great rating for a vampire book, but then giving Stephanie Meyer a poor rating for a similar type of novel - and her questioning the reviewer's logic.

One could say - "well there's a lot of money on the line" but that's true of any form of entertainment - a lot of somebody's time and money goes into producing these things.

The key difference is that the other media have matured - their respective industries understand the subjective nature of reviews. And let's be clear, all reviews are subjective - that's why we have so many.

What needs to happen is that developers/publishers need to acknowledge this fact and divorce themselves from the review process - they can't dictate it and they definitely shouldn't meddle in it (by pulling ads or making threats).

It isn't the role of game makers to judge how people accept the game - it's their role to learn from it, adapt and make the best games possible based on the feedback they get.

Avatar image for retrovirus
retrovirus

1669

Forum Posts

130

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 17

Edited By retrovirus

Amazing article. Video game criticism is extremely interesting, and I would personally like to hear/read more postmortems on games.

Avatar image for worlddude
WorldDude

235

Forum Posts

5

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By WorldDude

To answer your question, Patrick, yes! I would love to see more piece likes this on Giant Bomb. Original content like this is what separates gaming websites. I appreciate the news posts you do, but I don't come to Giant Bomb for news, I come for the original video and written content like this.

So, in short, give us more. MORE I SAY!

Avatar image for gaff
Gaff

2768

Forum Posts

120

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Edited By Gaff

@leebmx: I think people don't review films as a breakdown of its parts because film criticism has been around for much longer and critics have learned to write about films. Every film review will call out certain aspects of a particular film if it is worth mentioning: editing, music score, writing, lighting, special effects, acting, and so on, but they don't feel the need to break out the...

BOLD TYPEFACE

And go on to discuss a different aspect of a game or film, which has no other connection to previous sections other than being in the same game. While it is a great crutch for inexperienced writers, it makes for a terrible read.

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT

"If memory serves me right, I was 14 back then, and I've been writing about games in some form since then..."

Avatar image for bcjohnnie
bcjohnnie

459

Forum Posts

643

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 5

Edited By bcjohnnie

@Coreymw: Well I won't argue too much with you, because it sounds like we come to reviews for different things. I find "objectivity" a boring concept in general. At its core, an objective review could be just a series of check boxes and numbers evaluating the overall quality of a game. Knowing how well-made a game is can be useful to me, but there are plenty of well-made games, even in genres I like, that I have just hated, because the mechanics are not for me, and so I seek out reviewers who have similar tastes to mine. That is also how I approach movie reviews, because an "objective" review of a movie review is completely useless to me if I want to know whether the movie is compatible with my taste.

I will also say that, by your account, if you don't want prior games referenced at all in a review of a sequel, the game could be an exact copy of a prior game in the series, and the review would not mention that. Having played the prior game, you would probably be disappointed to play an identical sequel for 60 bucks, and would have like to know that you've basically already played the same game. Although this is an exaggeration, having played prior games in a series often makes people want something new and different, and so a game can suffer if it doesn't innovate.

As an example. Assassin's Creed Revelation was a real disappointment, because although it was basically the same game as Brotherhood with some new mechanics, it was also basically the same game again, which was tiresome to many people. A review of that game that doesn't mention the other Assassin's Creed game would be a failure in my eyes.

Finally, I would submit that almost every review on GB is fairly subjective. I have learned over time that I disagree with Brad's assessment of many many games, and his good reviews of games don't count much for me, while Jeff and Ryan tend to like more things in games that I enjoy, and those all come through in their reviews.

Avatar image for lokar36
Lokar36

59

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Lokar36

I gotta say Patrick, this was a very well conceived and thought provoking piece. Thanks. Looking forward to more of the same.

Avatar image for lordofultima
lordofultima

6592

Forum Posts

25303

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 4

User Lists: 9

Edited By lordofultima
I do not judge a pie poorly because it is not cake.

I DO. CAKE IS THE ONLY DESSERT.

Avatar image for claude
Claude

16672

Forum Posts

1047

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 18

Edited By Claude
@SiN13: Skyward Sword's controls work fine for me. I found them easy to understand and use. As for the bloated part, that's just an opinion. I have a few minor complaints, but they don't take away from my enjoyment in the least. It's a pretty great game in my book.
Avatar image for zockroach
zockroach

117

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By zockroach

Fuck yeah, great stuff. I logged on groggy as shit to zone out and watch some videos and end up reading a huge Klepek article instead.

Thanks for the window in.

Avatar image for coreymw
coreymw

284

Forum Posts

4

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 3

User Lists: 0

Edited By coreymw

@bcjohnnie: Argue, I was approaching it as a fun discussion.

I definitely require a lot of objectivity, but some subjectivity is nice. Thinking back to some of Jeff's reviews I tend to like his style more than anyone else's here, because we like some of the same things, but also because they're entertaining. It's when a game is compared too much to another in a series, or to another game in the same genre that I check out. I pretty well know when I'm going to buy a game, but when I want a review, it's hard to find a writer I like.

Good talking with you.

Avatar image for angeln7
AngelN7

3001

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Edited By AngelN7

"I don't need my opinions validated, I need my opinions challenged" - Patrick Klepek

you put that! in the back of the box

Avatar image for ravenlight
Ravenlight

8057

Forum Posts

12306

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Edited By Ravenlight

@patrickklepek said:

Want more pieces like this? Let me know.

This is one of the reasons I'm a gold member. Specific "articles" like this are a great break from the same game announcement news that floats around every site out there. I think your English teacher was on to something.

Avatar image for junpei
Junpei

868

Forum Posts

1384

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 3

Edited By Junpei

I enjoyed this and am looking forward to where this goes. More on topic though the major issue with the response people give to scores is that there are way too many people who will look at the score and not even read the reviewers opinions for why they came to that conclusion. It seems that the traditional review is more for people who know nothing to little about the games going in and a really good critique is for the enthusiast.

I can see where Manveer comes to the proposal of separating them but I don't think that would be entirely possible. I feel a lot of it stems from the users and readers feeling way to connected to a game and acting like they have been personally insulted when a reviewer substantially justifies their displeasure of a games aspect. I for one love Catherine to death. Jeff for example absolutely hates it. That's fine. The reasoning he gives for it is understandable so why should that keep me from enjoying the game?

Users need to grow up and read what was written instead of looking at a review score as a measured comparison of penis size.

Avatar image for atary77
Atary77

580

Forum Posts

18

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 0

Edited By Atary77

This is a great piece that addresses a good chunk if not all of the concerns about the state of reviewing games.

Avatar image for darkdragonmage99
darkdragonmage99

744

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Edited By darkdragonmage99

I've been wanting more stuff like this sense last E3

Avatar image for jozzy
jozzy

2053

Forum Posts

1

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Edited By jozzy

@Hugh_Jazz said:

I haven't played Uncharted 3 or any other Uncharted game for that matter, but I was of the opinion that the criticisms levelled against it by Simon Parkin had to do with the linearity directly affecting gameplay in a way that hadn't happened as much in the earlier games. Namely, if you didn't make a jump exactly how and when you were supposed to you wouldn't make it, kind of like a QTE. In Modern Warfare, for example, the linearity of the game doesn't force you to edit your actions in the same way. If you stand still, dudes will keep running at you, and you will keep shooting them. The game doesn't further penalize you.

It seems to me like there's a pretty big difference between these two series that Manveer Heir kinda failed to touch upon, or recognise. Or am I all wrong?

Didn't read the whole thread, but I was thinking the same thing as you are saying. It was not just the linearity that was the problem with UC3, but more how the linearity was implemented. Simon had some great examples in his review.

Avatar image for dreamfall31
Dreamfall31

2036

Forum Posts

391

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 2

User Lists: 8

Edited By Dreamfall31

This is such a great article! I agree pretty much with all of it and it is mostly the reason that I only ever come here to see reviews. For some reason I never enjoyed reading reviews from the bigger corporate owned game sites. They were always very impersonal, and probably gave more praise to crappier games because of advertisements. I feel like with Giant Bomb's reviews the 5 star system makes you want to read the review more as it can be hard to determine what the difference between a single star is without reading the review. As GB is a much more personal site and we see and hear the dudes who run it on a daily basis, you can kind of figure which one you agree with the most.

For example, the new Choplifter game has been getting many 8's on various sites. That would normally be indicative of a good game. Though after watching the Quick Look and hearing Jeff talk about it, I'm probably gonna stray away from it. Because I am able to see it played while the person playing gives commentary, I can judge substantially more whether or not I will like the game. Something like Mighty Switch Force may never get a review, but thanks to the QL I know it is a pretty interesting, fun and great looking 2D platformer. I would have had a much harder time figuring that from other site's images and company sponsored gameplay clips.

It does really suck that games do cost so much more and if you can't find someone to critique or play it who you can relate to, then you may end up wasting a bunch of money based on Metacritic scores. Atleast with movies the loss is a bit less, but I think it is easier to figure out if you have a better chance of liking a movie on your own without reviews. Although I think we were all tricked with that WonderCon Green Lantern trailer...sheesh was that movie shit!

Avatar image for grhmhmltn
grhmhmltn

87

Forum Posts

201

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By grhmhmltn

YES I WANT MORE PIECES LIKE THIS!!!!!!!!!

Avatar image for leebmx
leebmx

2346

Forum Posts

61

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 4

Edited By leebmx

@Gaff: Yeah that's kind of the point I was making in the second paragraph. I think this sort of compartmentalising that video game reviews do will fade away as we get less concerned with the technology and more with the medium itself.

Look at how IGN breaks down games in their reviews: Presentation, Graphics, Sound, Gameplay, Lasting Appeal. This is a view of videogames stuck firmly in the 80's. No marks for Story, Writing, Plot? How can you break down Portal or Uncharted into these categories and why would you want to. I agree that as videogames grow up the writing around them will have to as well. It's annoying because I think the two feed off each other and that mediocre writing about videogames leads to poor games as developers think they are producing for a less developed audience.

Avatar image for deactivated-5b1b0a3fa1333
deactivated-5b1b0a3fa1333

79

Forum Posts

48

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

I like it, but because it points out a major problem as far as what the growth of "games criticism" is.

As much as super-granular scores are thankfully a relic, trying to lobby for the divergence of the fledging scene for in-depth criticism and the well-entrenched mode consumer reviews is ridiculous. We don't give other forms of media the same graces, and we generally don't do it for video games either. If games were judged solely on their ability to accomplish what they set out to do, Duke Nukem Forever would be a critical darling; it got panned not just because of its functional shortcomings but for its content (and rightly so). The reason linearity wasn't "problematic" for Uncharted or its sequel was that the critical vocabulary didn't have room to call it out, and public tastes have only recently shifted to the point where this dialogue is happening in the first place. (And really the problem really seems more like the gulf between presented choice and actual effect versus linearity. Really it becomes about whether or not that linearity starts to cut into a player's ability to feel like they have an effect beyond getting to the next setpiece.)

I read Kill Screen now and again but after a quick honeymoon it just seems to be a place for navel-gazing and putting on airs when the capacity for "games criticism" as it's been defined here is still very young. With time it'll get better I'm sure but until then I'm not really big on comparing fighting game play to Coltrane solos or an almost steadfast refusal to engage the games it covers from a viewpoint that allows for the separation of gameplay versus story and setting and window decorations. It's a lot of the same sins their sister site Pitchfork committed in its earliest years; long personal asides, overblown similes. More about getting flowery than getting to the thick of it.

I should probably just nut up and write something long and boring but I'm worried once I started I'd just keep typing until my fingers were pulpy stumps and I'd be in the middle of a paragraph about the industry overall being primed largely against critical analysis in the first place.

Avatar image for nikemike99
nikemike99

70

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By nikemike99

Really enjoyed this. Looking forward to the next part.

Avatar image for pain777pas
pain777pas

15

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By pain777pas

This was a great article. I truly side with Manveer though. Uncharted 3 is in its own league as far as manipulating their engine goes. If they make an open world game at some point they will be the envy of the industry. Some may not see the technical side of things however that cannot be denied for a game like Uncharted 3. Here is the thing they made a game and the only game for me this year that I did not stop playing like I was watching a movie. Skyrim could not do that and I may revisit when I have freetime. Few games can grab you and take you to the end. This is what they are mastering. You may call it linear or whatever you want they met their goal and did an exceptional job. Sometimes I do not think that journalist understand what they are playing. Brad S from this site has an understanding of mechanics and tries to see where the devs were going with this and you can see that the game is great playing and it does lead you down one path with multiple gameplay techniques to explore during those arena battles to be lead again to more shock and awe moments to better and more complex shooting, platforming, hanging, stealth etc.... Take just the gameplay from Uncharted 3 and put it in a game like Saints row the 3rd and you will see what they have done. They have the best 3rd person action system in gaming today. Vanquish is there too. Naughty Dog are on the cusp of trying to master the art of creating a game that you will be compelled to complete while learning what makes online gaming in the 3rd person awesome.

Avatar image for cmblasko
cmblasko

2955

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By cmblasko

Good article, please keep doing stuff like this. Insight into the process of reviewing games is always interesting to me.

I feel that as sequelitis spreads and games become more derivative, it makes sense to focus on reviewing lesser-known genres and new IPs or indie games. That way, reviews can be used to analyze new ideas and design choices instead of comparing the slight differences between Well-Known Game 1 and Well-Known Game 2. It could also help get the word out about well-made, unknown games that deserve some attention (without becoming advertising, of course).

Avatar image for time allen
time allen

2329

Forum Posts

29

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By time allen

scores should have been dropped by now. it's so juvenile to just slap a number at the end of a review and call that your opinion.

also: yes, please do more.

Avatar image for andrewf87462
andrewf87462

1035

Forum Posts

45

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By andrewf87462

What an excellent article. Well done Patrick. This is definitely what this site needs more of. I look forward to reading the last two installments.

Avatar image for icon
Icon

26

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 3

Edited By Icon

@Christoffer said:

@Icon said:

I disagree with his, and Manveer's, stance that reviews and criticism should be separated, however. They are one in the same. A review is criticism.

I don't think you get his point at all. Ones opinion of a game (or any kind of media) is never the sum of it's parts. Good music can be highly regarded even if the sound isn't top notch. Litterature isn't worse if there's a few typos. I think readers can misunderstand the quality, or the purpose, of a game if the reviewers get into such detail.

Also, you need to untangle that "pie inside of a cake" allegory. Do you suggest Uncharted claimed to be an open-world game inside a linear game? I don't get it?

I think you have a misunderstanding of what criticism is. That's okay. A lot of people do. That's why this argument hasn't stopped since it began in October. A critical work does not judge another work by the 'sum of its parts.' It simply relates the merit of the work to the reader. Kind of sounds like a review, doesn't it? There are certainly different levels of critique, but you won't find typos discussed in criticism unless we're talking about textual criticism, in which case it is very important.

The issue behind the original review wasn't that it covered trivial aspects like 'a few typos' or the fidelity of the music. Nor was Manveer's issue with the reductionist nature of some reviews; that's something he now finds 'abhorrent' (In fact, Manveer seems to shrug off all attempts to compartmentalize a review, but strangely holds tight on the score). Manveer's issue with the review was that it went beyond the game, giving the game real world context, while still giving the game a score. His distinction - his only distinction - is that reviews have scores, criticism does not. He also states that criticism is objective, while reviews are subjective, but that's just silly. While there are objective techniques used to develop an argument, at the end of the day, it is still an argument and an argument is only as strong as the evidence. If the objective measurements are used poorly, it is a poor argument.

As for the analogy, Uncharted 3 the game is the pie, while Uncharted 3 the linear, cinematic experience is the cake. Parkin claims that the cake gets in the way of the pie, or rather, that the game's tight scripted narrative intrudes on the exciting gameplay far too often.

Avatar image for vlad_tiberius
Vlad_Tiberius

205

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Edited By Vlad_Tiberius

How about writing an article about certain practices like how known videogame websites (let's say IGN) provide ad space and industry giants (let's say EA) buy that space and, in exchange, the website's "journalists" provide a dozen enticing previews plus, if the money is right, they will also provide an early review full of praises (like all early reviews)?

Talking about criticism in today's reviews and the different approaches and mindsets one could have in both reviewing, but also in reading a review is certainly interesting, no doubt about it, but has the risk of coming off too philosophical and elitist when compared to real industry problems like the one I presented above, one that persists even today, and that damages videogame journalism and consumers alike.

Let's start and discuss the standard practices, the credibility and the business of it (because it IS a business first and foremost and that's why you're all so passionate and involved) and THEN move on to philosophical things.

Consumers and videogame enthusiasts need to know these things first before mesmerizing them with details about the "fine art" of reviewing.

Avatar image for galiant
galiant

2239

Forum Posts

117

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: -1

User Lists: 0

Edited By galiant

Great article, keep 'em coming I say!