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So, Fez II

Some stuff happened over the weekend.

Fez II is no longer in active development, according to developer Polytron and its designer, Phil Fish. That’s the word from Fish, who dropped his mic this weekend.

“FEZ II is cancelled,” said Fish in a statement on Polytron’s website. "i am done.i take the money and i run. this is as much as i can stomach. this is isn’t the result of any one thing, but the end of a long, bloody campaign. you win.”

For the record, I don’t believe him, even though I’ve “confirmed” the news with Fish myself over email. I suspect we will, at some point, see (and play) the sequel to Fez, but this weekend’s events provide an opportunity for Fish to leave the spotlight and protect his sanity from the world and, well, himself. Fish speaks too passionately about games to leave them behind. That isn’t some subtle hint, either. It’s my gut feeling.

But how did we get here? It begins with the latest episode of Invisible Walls, a Game Trailers podcast, featuring a lengthy rant from Marcus Beer, a longtime member of the industry now commentating under the named “Annoyed Gamer.” The podcast was discussing the recent turn of events regarding Xbox One self-publishing, and how both Fish and Braid designer Jonathan Blow used Twitter to criticize the press for running towards both of them for quotes about what was, then, still a rumor coming from Game Informer about the news. A rumor with some legitimacy? Sure, and while it eventually proved true, Blow was upset reporters were asking for commentary without more information (for example, the revenue share ratio) and Fish lamented the press seeking a quote before everything was confirmed. Fish's divisive nature is easy traffic.

Cue Beer:

“But, of course, the press, wanting to get reactions, they went to a couple of indie developers. In this case, Jonathan Blow and Phil Fish, because those guys are the self-styled kings of the indie genre. They’ve been on Indie Game: The Movie, and they’ll turn up and quote for anything and everyone. And Ms. Fish and Blow, or BlowFish as I’m going to call the two them right, because while they may be moderately tasty, they’re also kind of lethal. [They] decided to go bananas and bitch and moan to Game Informer, in particular about “How dare you, how dare you ask us questions about this story! I’m sick of you guys wanting my opinion on this story!” Both of them, both bitching away. And I’ve just got a little message for the BlowFish. Gents, you are the guys who did Indie Games: The Movie, and some of you looked relatively normal in it, one of you looked like a total tosspot in it. You can’t have it both ways. You’re successful game designers, you’re indie game designers--hurrah, good for you, you fucking hipsters. Let’s get something out of the way. If you are successful and you want people to promote your games, and you go to the press and give them quotes for anything that pertains to your shilling your next title, when the press, then, come to you and say “this is something that’s pertinent to the indie scene, let’s talk to BlowFish because BlowFish are successful and they are, you know, supposedly these pioneers” don’t get fucking snicky about it, alright? Jesus, you should be grateful that these guys consider what you say something of use.. Me? I think the both of you are a pair of tosspots. You may make good games. Well, Blow makes...Blow makes a good game. Fez, I’m just not into at all. I’m just not into it. I respect people that do [enjoy it]. My own personal opinion, though? Having seen these wankers over and over again, bitch and moan--Phil Fish in particular, though.

Other Commentator: He does come across as whiny.

Beer: Whiny? He’s a fucking asshole most of the time. I’m an asshole, but that’s what I am, that’s what I do. I suck it up. But what I’m saying is that if you guys want the promotion the next time around on your Fez 2 or...what’s the follow-up to Braid, The Witless? Witless? Whoa! Yeah, c’mon. I would like to say to every outlet who got dismissed by BlowFish, fuck ‘em. Next time they have something to shill, say “yeah, not so much interested.” It is a two-way street, it’s a symbiotic relationship. You guys are out there, you have to suck it up.”

Game developers do not owe us anything, and I don’t owe them anything. It’s archaic to view the press-developer relationship as strictly symbiotic, and is indicative of an old view of the press-developer relationship. Do I often rely on developers to open up and allow me to tell their stories? Yes, but it’s an optional dance we do the tango to. No one is indebted to the other once that exchange has run its course, and that's the end of the road. If you're on a writer/journalist making this argument, that's really bad.

Anyway.

Fish caught wind of Beer’s comments, and exploded on Twitter.

("Compare your life to mine and then kill yourself" is a Futurama quote, but that's a bit besides the point.)

That’s just a taste. Beer eventually responded, and offered Fish an opportunity to discuss his commentary on camera, but Fish wasn’t interested. Over the next hour or so, Fish continued to vocally express his displeasure, speaking more broadly about his feelings about people slinging crap his way, and the toll it takes on psyche. It ended with Fez II’s abrupt cancellation, despite having been announced only recently.

I spent the weekend largely disconnected from the Internet. Like Fish, I’m a public figure, someone who puts themselves out there and deals with what comes back--the good and the bad. I’m not proud of the fact that I’ve grown a thick enough skin to deal with rape threats targeted at my wife simply because I’ve had the audacity to talk about sexism in video games. Nor am I proud of being able to withstand pot shots from anonymous jerks about my deceased father. These are not traits that will ever be mentioned in my resume.

We all handle criticism, especially the vitriolic kind, differently. I stopped responding to jerks, and ask people to come in my direction through email, private messages, or questions over Tumblr. Over time, it's produced excellent results, but not pulling the trigger and snarking back at a jerk is hard. Vocal game designer Hideki Kamiya tells people to fuck off. Fish responded by yelling, stirring the pot, and unironically latching himself to a photo of known troller (he probably would have hated that term) and comedian Andy Kaufman.

Some of his comments are indefensible, and some, I suspect, he wishes he could take back.

But I know the good of the Internet, too, and I wish Fish had, either, seen more of it or reminded himself of what it produces. I’ve had my moments with the Giant Bomb community, but so much has been tremendous.

I mean, look at this stuff.

When my father passed, the Giant Bomb community started a thread with well wishes about my work and anonymous comments about my father, a person none of them had ever met. I kept that thread bookmarked on my phone during the first week of my father’s passing, and would often head into the bathroom, page through the thread, not really reading anything, and cry. It was a showing of genuine compassion by a group of people who only knew me from what I put out there. When I needed them, they had my back.

And that's to say nothing of how we pulled together for during the passing of the irreplaceable Ryan Davis.

Whenever someone gets under my skin, I reach into my bag. Tucked into a pocket are a series of letters, private thoughts from people who have reached out over the years, thanking me for one thing or another that I've been involved in. Most of them bring a tear to my eye, and each reminds me why I'm still doing this.

99% of the Internet has been nothing but nice to me, even when it’s a backhanded compliment. It’s easy to focus on that 1%. That 1% is vile, hateful, spiteful, jealous, mean, and would likely be as venomous in a public place as they are with a badge of anonymity. Many are probably teenagers who will grow up and learn to regret their ignorant actions, but some of them aren’t, and those are the people who scare me the most. But I can’t spend my day worrying about the 1%. I wake up every day trying to make the other 99% happy.

I hope I’m doing an okay job of that.

Patrick Klepek on Google+
901 Comments
Edited by Zainyboy

Well, artists can be notoriously sensitive Fish strikes me as one of those. In the movie, he always seemed on the edge of a breakdown. Personally, I don't deal well with people like him.

But his talent is unquestionable and in the end I will always root for the creative person over the negative critic.

As usual, Scoops has some good level-headed commentary on the situation without sitting on the fence.

Top stuff my man!

Edited by TheDudeOfGaming

Here's an image conveying how I feel about Phil Fish.

Basically...

But not really.

In all honesty they both acted like assholes and said some really stupid shit. It's not really a case of who's right or wrong but who's wrong more. With all of that said, the internet is probably the worst thing about this whole incident. Some of the comments are really just too much.

Regardless I hope Phil will come back with all his flaws, because in the end the dude made a good video game and hopefully he'll continue to do so somewhere down the line. I also think it's not the worst idea for him to take a little time off from all this bullshit, think about things, and put them in perspective. Maybe not be quite as active on social platforms on the internet? Bottom line is he's really not a bad guy, even if he might say/write some asshole-ish things.

In any case good article Patrick, glad to see you writing.

Posted by Hailinel

@thedudeofgaming: Why would you want him to come back with all of his flaws? Phil's flaws are not what I would classify as endearing and I'd rather see him take the time to address his issues.

Posted by goatmilk

IMO Mr. Fish needs some kind of, hm, disconnect.

This is some highschool level shit. This isn't the kind of stuff that a grown man should even acknowledge or give a shit about.

Both of these guys seem more than a bit emotionally immature. I don't say that as an insult either.

Posted by wewantsthering

@patrickklepek

Love Ryan Davis.

Love Phil Fish.

Love Giant Bomb.

Love Everyone.

Yes! Why all the hate lately? :-( I don't feel hate. I just feel sad now.

Posted by TheDudeOfGaming

@hailinel: *whispers* So he can create more internet drama. But don't tell anyone I said that.

That would be the best solution, but if he is unable to address his issues a simple fix would be to close his twitter account. The amount of shitstorms it creates is astounding.

Posted by Sil3n7

I love how by the end you somehow made this story about... you?

Online
Posted by Xpgamer7

@patrickklepek While I love your articles and your attempt ability to combine the human elements of a story with the actual facts, I'm a little tired of the mention of your own issues weaved into the story. In your somewhat memoriam like opening to Worth Reading you mentioned your father's passing, and take both of those elements into this story as well. I have no problem with weaving personal history and emphasis into stories, as that's how the best emotionally driven articles are written. Also reading this made it even more clear the strain from constantly rude internet commenters and how it's affected you enough to include it. But I felt that the separation between the story and your feelings in this article while practical made them feel like two separate articles. In that case I wonder whether they should be interwoven to support the Fez II story or separated to include a blog entry/editorial on internet vitrol and appreciation. Also the aforementioned Ryan Davis section was interesting but also felt like it took away from the focus on Ryan to show your connection to him(and your own situation) through your life rather than putting the focus on Ryan himself. I know it's not my place as a reader to push you in any direction, but seeing this I hope to see better interwoven stores and continued high quality writing that knows where it is on the subject. Anyway I needed to put my two cents out there after it's been circling in my mind for the last week.

Posted by scottygrayskull

What bothers me so much about this is how people were and still are excusing Phil's behaviour. Like he's somehow justified in all the hate he slings out, but needs to be treated as some delicate flower because he made a game people liked. Anybody with his personality who hadn't made a successful would have been banned from most community websites. I found it funny that I read the "Assholes are Assholes" (http://www.merseyremakes.co.uk/gibber/2013/07/assholes-are-assholes/) piece you linked to on Worth Reading literally right before Fez II got cancelled, because I do feel like people were just propping up Phil's behaviour and not sitting him down to say "hey, you might want to chill out a bit... we're worried about you".

Yes, I completely agree that it sucks that there exist this subsection of humanity that seemingly only exists to tear you down and make you feel like a sack of shit, if even only to make themselves feel better. And not even just online. And it's terrible that online people can say the horrible things that they do (although maybe not for much longer, if Justin Carter's case becomes the norm). But it does exist, and it should be common knowledge when you throw out that much hate you're going to get it back in spades, especially if you choose to engage with those sorts of people. I don't care what cute pop culture reference you're making, you don't tell someone to kill themselves. And if you're doing in in response to them saying you're an whiny asshole? You're kind of only proving their point. Being a public figure means you get the public's attention, for better or for worse. There are plenty of very successful indie devs who don't go for the spotlight like he does, and just as many devs who are

It is a shame that he wound up leaving this way, but I do hope he takes some time to reflect on what he's done, and how he's carried himself since becoming a big deal. And I hope those close to him give him the support he needs right now, because whether or not he does come back to video games I think he really needs some help.

I do suppose this means though that Fez on 360 will never be patched. Shame, I hear it was a pretty good experience.

Posted by Kierkegaard

@patrickklepek That was insightful, heartfelt, and meaningful. Thank you for being responsible and human with this complicated story. We'll always have your back.

I just keep thinking: to quote our moderators, "don't be a dick." If your entire persona exists to be a dick about games, Mr. Beer, you should rethink the value that gives to other people.

Ryan criticized people hard some times, but he made it clear it came from a place of love and support, of helping them grow. He was hilarious because he knew how to toe that line so well.

Man, is it really so hard to have some goddamn respect?

Posted by Claude

@xpgamer7: So fucking clueless. I did appreciate the opportunity to read your diatribe, love that word, oh wait, no...I didn't.

Don't want an internet fight, dude. Just in a mood.

Posted by jmarquiso

One thing I'm really unhappy about with this is a lack of access to creators. Phil fish (or any creator) being on twitter is a good thing, the problem is that we treat such a privilege with troll gloves. Seriously, Fish hasn't said anything where I haven't already read worse on internet forums.

Edited by Hilts

Game trailers can blow me. They are now trying to belittle Cliff Bleszinski for trying to support Phil Fish over Fez II. Keep digging Game Trailers.

http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mission/57960/cliff-bleszinski-to-phil-fish-you-dont-owe-a-damned-thing-to-any-gaming-journalist

Posted by matti00

I usually don't like to bother the games industry personalities I follow on Twitter, I find it a bit stalker-y. After all the stuff that's happened recently though, along with Indie Game: The Movie Special Edition being almost entirely about how they get treated like shit on a daily basis, I think I'm going to take more opportunities to tell these guys I love their work and I'm a huge fan.

Don't let these cunts drive you away from the industry, it's a beautiful thing.

Posted by mikethekilla

So... He's going home and taking his ball with him?

Edited by spitz1000

based on those twitter screenshots i say good riddance.

though i don't like that bitchy beer guy either.

Posted by Landmine

@patrickklepek You're an amazing writer, journalist, and content creator. This was clearly a well thought out piece.

I (unfortunately) know what it's like to be on the receiving end of this kind of stuff as well. I swore to myself that I would never treat others that way, be it online or off. On occasion I have written things that either didn't get read the way I meant them or were just downright dumb, but nothing with malicious intent. Personal attacks are not easy to deal with and I'm sorry that you have had such vile things said to you by people who clearly have no regard for anyone but themselves.

As for Phil, I feel for the guy and I understand where he's coming from. I also hope he can find the good out there no matter where he finds it.

Edited by kindgineer

Moral of this story? Both Beer & Fish are self-entitled jackasses that bite more than they can chew.

On the side of Beer, he's an idiot who obviously doesn't like Fish, and let his horribly unprofessional opinion leak out on his stream.

Fish, well he's fish. Unless to live under a rock, you know he's a pretentious tightwad that obviously has no social skills when it comes to chilling out against the onslaught of the Internet. Sorry to break it to you, pal, but this is the career you chose. It's a pathetic exit for this industry, especially so soon after an announcement has been made. It speaks to his inability to hold true to his word, and unfortunately for myself, that dismembers any credibility he had in my eyes as a person, and developer.

This whole situation is a shit show, and I hope that " the annoyed gamer" turns as red as a tomato from his betters rail into him. Neither of the two dumbasses deserve a free ride from this.

Posted by MedalOfMode

If you hate Microsoft, you will stop making games!

Posted by probablytuna

FEZ II will be back. I am hopeful.

Edited by zaldar

I have to say fish really seems like a jerk and I disagree that the press developer relationship isn't or shouldn't be symbiotic they can quite easily say I don't have a comment or I don't have enough information to comment and move on. *shrug* Acting like the press was being audacious in asking them a question seems a little much and only makes them look like they have an even bigger head.

I disagree with you about some of what you have said about sexism in video games (as I think a lot of this is overblown and way to much gets thrown into the sexism label these days) but lord I would never threaten to rape your wife...no matter how much I think your hatred for the latest duke nukem is ridiculous. That is just perverse...sorry you had that happen to you.

Posted by Beach

While some of Fish's comments are nigh inexcusable it is worth defending creatives who put themselves out there without filter or have been made boring by too much media training. As I see it Fish is a real person who says some incredibly stupid things at times and Beer is just acting as this persona he has created whose only job is too bitch and moan.

I know who I'd rather be without...

Posted by Kinapuff

It shocks me that there's such a large amount of people who are willing to write out numerous paragraphs about how wrong Marcus Beer is, yet they're completely oblivious as to his persona and his role over on Gametrailers.

Posted by Daiphyer

I love all of you guys, okay. Let's keep this place filled with love. <3

Posted by Lysergica33

I actually feel for the guy a lot and agree with a lot of what he has to say about Marcus Beer, especially the comment about how he creates nothing of beauty. Phil Fish, for all of his down falls, is an artist. A very drive, very passionate artist. An artist so driven and so passionate that he can't helpbut be vitriolic and call bullshit where he sees it. I don't think that necessarily makes him an asshole, but the limelight and that kind of character don't often mix well. Marcus Beer is just a commentator, he sits at the sidelines and criticises the work of others while never offering better alternatives, never innovating, never pushing himself or the industry in any meaningful way. In my opinion, that specific line of game "journalism" has a tendency to be parasitic as fuck, so I think Phil Fish was well within his right to tell that guy to go fuck himself.

I, too, think Phil will be back. For now I implore people not to judge the guy so hastily. Artists have a hard time in the game's industry and if they ever lash out in response, it's always them that gets bashed, when without them we wouldn't have any beautiful art to consume in the first place. And is Marcus Beer going to be the guy that makes the games once he's pissed all the good devs off? Fuck no. FUCK no.

Posted by needsmoredakka

I wish people would stop acting like this isn't just a desperate grab for attention. Even Patrick knows that Fish is going to turn around within a month at best and spout some fuck the haters speech because he's the face of video games and everyone can suck his dick, especially his fans for ever daring to doubt his commitment to creating the Mona Lisa of video games.

Phil Fish embodies everything that's wrong with the industry right now - an entitled, self-important developer who reacts to any criticism by insulting his fanbase, refuses to acknowledge or amend any of his game's shortcomings, and focuses on gimmicks over gameplay while accusing his competitors of doing the same or worse. This, and he believes he's one of the greatest developers of all time.

He's probably just pissed that the Fez 2 announcement didn't cause everyone to spontaneously jizz their pants and preemptively award him IGF's GOTY for 2014-2016.

(game to be released 2019)

Edited by ack

i think everyone just forgets that MOST of the terrible people are like 12-16

for real i forget that theres kids all over this 'net all the time, crazed teens

Edited by Renegade_Kid

Wonderful!

Posted by HowDire

I'm sorry but people are making out that Phil Fish is the worst thing since sliced Hitler. I still respect the guy.

The real filth are the "gamers" posting toxic comments on the Polytron website.

Fez was awesome and I was looking forward to see what was coming next.

I blame the Internet.

Edited by Will_M

Great read. I still can't believe Fish let some dumb comments get to him. And all this just days within the release of Indie Game: The Movie extended or special edition on steam.

Posted by Pezen

As someone that is a fan of a lot of artists like Phil, I can completely understand. He's like a video games version of a young Marc Maron. Hyper sensitive and yet outwardly outspoken. He just lacks's the years of self-insight Maron has. And he still get personally involved in twitter feuds with strangers from time to time. And on that point, when you are a visible target, you will be shot. And I find it hilarious that nobodies on comment sectiond seem to think they have the answers for how to deal with a flood of negativity the scale they have never in their internet lives experienced.

I am not familiar enough with Beer's work to comment on him as a person. What he said is at best misguided and at worst a personal insult that adds to form the opinion surrounding guys like Blow and Fish. How many agree with Beer without ever having met them or interacted with them in any way? Too many, I'm sure.

And I agree with Fish, he put out (whether you liked it or not) a work of hard labour and beauty to the world. If Beer's only job is to be an "Annoyed Gamer" -- I'm going to side with Fish. Because I am tired of entitled enthusiast press "personalities" who are wrapped up in their own small form of internet "fame", you wouldn't have a job without game developers. But game developers will always have press. Even if only by mainstream media.

But hey, Fish, pick your battles and focus on your art. You're not doing yourself any favors here.

Posted by TheRedDeath

Wow, Patrick. 1%? Really? Quite optimistic there.

And thus in this era of narcissism, the children fight over getting their way.

Posted by darkdragonmage99

That's the world for you full of unrelenting assholes

Posted by BigStupidFace

@jman240: Well said, this says exactly how I feel.

Edited by kristov_romanov

I find Phil Fish abrasive and such, but man I really like this post by Scoops. Really well written and good to hear how it compares to Patrick's experiences.

Also, Blowfish? Good thing Jonathan Blow never worked on an iPhone game with Steve Jobs while he was around.

Posted by Zevvion

I'm not sure I completely agree with Patrick and dismiss Beer's opinion.

Beer is known for being a dick. He voices his opinion through bashing and loud mouthing. Whether that's a fun thing, or a sad thing; you can't say he's attacking anyone personally. He reacts like this to everything, including himself. Which makes me believe Fish flipped out for very little.

But mostly, I believe the message Beer is trying to pass is pretty much true. Microsoft never even announced what they were going to do with indie devs. At all. Not one bit. But Fish and Blow sure were quick to, on multiple occasions, give their opinion to the press why Microsoft's indie policy was crap. Even though they didn't announce one yet. They were effectively commenting on nothing but speculation back then.

Now, when credible sources said what the actual indie policy was going to be and it appeared pretty much true for a change, they refused to comment because they didn't want to comment on rumors?

If you would've asked me, I would've said something like: Their reasoning seems hypocritical and I think it says something about them that they only want to comment on rumors where they can bad-mouth Microsoft, but don't want to comment when they are doing something good.

That's what I would've said. Of course if you're going to ask Beer you're going to get the same message wrapped in a bunch of hate and bashing.

Not trying to defend Beer, but he does this all the time and because Fish is so self-centered and 'cancels' Fez because of it it's suddenly an issue? Fish is the issue. Not Beer.

Posted by Kaineda77

@patrickklepek

Really sorry to hear about your experiences with the 1% of the internet.

Edited by Vinnie_Ton

I like Patrick, but not sure how or why this turned into an article about himself.

Posted by apoc_reg

Why didn't he just NOT use twitter, NOT do interviews, NOT go on any social media, make his game, make his money and be happy.

Loved Fez and was delighted to hear of a second game, ho hum

Posted by TruthTellah

Less heartlessness and hate.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2910/db0.gif

More mercy and kindness.

Edited by Yakow_93

Excellent article Patrick, keep up the good work.

Posted by Zero_

+1 Patty... I really dislike this recent uprising of snark and being a dick on the internet. I can't exactly pin point it, but it was never like that 10 years ago.

Edited by ptys

Thank Goodness! Too many sequels... too many cash grabs. Marcus Beer should be taken with a grain of salt though. I don't even think he's a gamer... just someone who likes the sound of his own voice.

Posted by ProfessorEss

Also, Blowfish? Good thing Jonathan Blow never worked on an iPhone game with Steve Jobs while he was around.

lolz :)

Posted by chose

I actually feel for the guy a lot and agree with a lot of what he has to say about Marcus Beer, especially the comment about how he creates nothing of beauty. Phil Fish, for all of his down falls, is an artist. A very drive, very passionate artist. An artist so driven and so passionate that he can't helpbut be vitriolic and call bullshit where he sees it. I don't think that necessarily makes him an asshole, but the limelight and that kind of character don't often mix well. Marcus Beer is just a commentator, he sits at the sidelines and criticises the work of others while never offering better alternatives, never innovating, never pushing himself or the industry in any meaningful way. In my opinion, that specific line of game "journalism" has a tendency to be parasitic as fuck, so I think Phil Fish was well within his right to tell that guy to go fuck himself.

I, too, think Phil will be back. For now I implore people not to judge the guy so hastily. Artists have a hard time in the game's industry and if they ever lash out in response, it's always them that gets bashed, when without them we wouldn't have any beautiful art to consume in the first place. And is Marcus Beer going to be the guy that makes the games once he's pissed all the good devs off? Fuck no. FUCK no.

Come on, get your head out of your ass. Phil Fish is not an artist, he doesn't create beauty or convey emotion, he's an entertainer. Like any pop star, he's a whore, not a troubled soul exploring his perception of the world in search of awe.

Edited by Otacon

You're right Patrick, it's all about how people deal with vitriol when they are a public figure. I don't blame Fish for how he reacts, and can't say I'd be any better, but he does respond immaturely and doesn't seem to be acknowledging that there are fans of his games out there that absolutely love his work as well as a minority of people that make personal attacks. I'm glad you're also aware that your fan base is MUCH bigger than the small amount of jerks that give you threats and such simply because you talk about valid topics in this industry. Keep on scooping Scoops, love your work as ever.

Posted by groverat

Someone here just posted a Photoshop of Phil Fish as a Nazi murdering a Jewish Holocaust victim, and so common is this type of attack that no one even comments on it.

Does anyone sincerely need more of an explanation as to why he sometimes lashes out against gamers as a group?

@Zevvion - We can't say Beer is attacking anyone personally? Did you read/watch Beer's rant? He very directly attacks Fish and Blow personally multiple times.

Edited by confideration

I was way into internetting before twitter and facespace or whatever came along. Back when you just got into arguments on forums and early blogs. It was fun there for about 2 years, making anonymous rants and trolling people. Now I just sit back and watch others discover how there's no end, no benefit to any of it. The cycle will continue. This is the norm.