Star Wars: The Old Republic Will Actually Ship This Year

God, Hayden Christensen even looks like a whiny asshole in still photos.

@CL60 said:

@blueduck said:

EA has stated they need 500k subs to do good enough, Rift was Trions first game, and it sold around 1.2 million and has a very solid playerbase and is growing. A bioware starwars game with the knights of the old republic name will do just fine..most of the MMO playerbase wants MMOs that play similarly to WoW.

That's just wrong. They've said 500k sales will make it profitable. As in, at that point they have covered the costs. In the same statement they also said they need 1 million subscriptions for the service to make "good money" (which I would assume means as good, or probably a bit better, profit than their average project). You gotta remember that games has become a market for investors. It's not about covering costs, it's about making profit. If SwToR cannot turn a significantly bigger profit than a normal game the service will be shut down, as it will only deteriorate over time.

It has already garnered 1.5 mill pre-orders though, so they should be fine for launch :P But if their subscription-numbers doesn't grow significantly from that as they leave the free period it's probably not gonna last long. It all comes down to word of mouth and retention.

I do find it curious that people wanna "hold off until it goes free to play" though. As if it actually does it means people didn't enjoy it :P I guess there's some sense to make of it, but it seems a bit counter-intuitive.

The game will fail with a $15 monthly subscription fee.

I'm still excited for Star Wars and I'm almost positive that I know what to expect of this game by now.

@Ares42: I don't like to feel like I'm renting a game. Monthly subscriptions are a totally antiquated payment model at this point, and most developers don't give you anywhere near enough content to justify the costs. Make the basic game free to play (still sell it in a box at retail, if you want) and then let players buy any new content when/if they want it. It makes much more sense and is a much more attractive business model for most.. one way or another, it'll switch over to that model eventually.

I'd also be interested to see how many of the 1.5 million pre-orders actually keep subscribed. Personally, I pre-ordered the game for an early access code.. then cancelled. I'll play it through that period and come back when it goes F2P.

Every piece of content I've seen from this game has been nothing but a bland disappointment. I hope it fails and then maybe Bioware will realise that they've just been making terrible games these past few years and shape up.

@Little_Socrates said:

Pending announcement of subscription fees, I might buy a month of this and give it a shot.

it's announced already

• 1 Month Subscription: $14.99 (£8.99/€12.99)
• 3 Month Subscription: $13.99 per month (one-time charge of $41.97/£25.17/€35.97)
• 6 Month Subscription: $12.99 per month (one-time charge of $77.94/£46.14/€65.94)

Wow, I have to say I am surprised by this. When SOE announced SWG was being taken down for good because SWTOR was coming out soon, I didn't expect five days later soon.

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42: I don't like to feel like I'm renting a game. Monthly subscriptions are a totally antiquated payment model at this point, and most developers don't give you anywhere near enough content to justify the costs. Make the basic game free to play (still sell it in a box at retail, if you want) and then let players buy any new content when/if they want it. It makes much more sense and is a much more attractive business model for most.. one way or another, it'll switch over to that model eventually.

I'd also be interested to see how many of the 1.5 million pre-orders actually keep subscribed. Personally, I pre-ordered the game for an early access code.. then cancelled. I'll play it through that period and come back when it goes F2P.

You can dislike the fact that high-quality MMOs can't exists without funding how much you want, it still won't change the fact that they do. It's a core part of the what makes it a genre, and any game that says they can do the same without charging their costumers in some way is just lying. If you believe the monthly subscriptions are there to provide you content and updates, you're just completely wrong. The reason why MMOs need funding is because the game requires constant hosting and maintenance to even operate.

However, from my experience, it seems to me like a lot of the people who actually play MMOs don't really care about the "real" MMO elements and would probably be happier with a game that works the way you described. It is something I've ranted about for a long while regarding SwToR, as it seems to me that very little (if any) of this game actually requires the backbone structure of a server-park. If the biggest instance in the game only handles 16 players, how on earth could that be a problem for someone with a half-decent computer to host ? People are just completely oblivious to what MMO actually means and accept whatever they are presented with.

@Ares42: Then I point you in the direction of Guild Wars (and Guild Wars 2) which was completely free to play and was still supported 100x better than any subscription based MMO I've ever played (with the exception of WoW, which makes so much money it's irrelevant). Any arguments of "it's not a real MMO so it doesn't require as much maintenance" falls flat with GW2, which is doing everything better than subscription based games and still only relying on the cost of the game, plus frequent expansions (i.e. not by ripping people off by parting off the game through microtransactions).

This is the main reason F2P games have become so much more popular too. People can play them without the stress, but developers still make an insane amount of money from selling content through a cash shop.

People aren't oblivios to what an MMO is and what it costs to run, it's just that a certain group of people have become convinced that they're monthly fee is going towards something and that it must be paid in order for a game to be good.

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42: Then I point you in the direction of Guild Wars (and Guild Wars 2) which was completely free to play and was still supported 100x better than any subscription based MMO I've ever played (with the exception of WoW, which makes so much money it's irrelevant). Any arguments of "it's not a real MMO so it doesn't require as much maintenance" falls flat with GW2, which is doing everything better than subscription based games and still only relying on the cost of the game, plus frequent expansions (i.e. not by ripping people off by parting off the game through microtransactions).

This is the main reason F2P games have become so much more popular too. People can play them without the stress, but developers still make an insane amount of money from selling content through a cash shop.

People aren't oblivios to what an MMO is and what it costs to run, it's just that a certain group of people have become convinced that they're monthly fee is going towards something and that it must be paid in order for a game to be good.

Well, I'm not too educated on Guild Wars 2, but I know for a fact that calling Guild Wars an MMO is a lie. Guild Wars is a Diablo clone, operating in the same way Diablo did through Battle.net. It has no gameplay that isn't hosted by the players themselves. Does Guild Wars 2 divert from that model ?

I will not deny that Guild Wars uses a model that way more people enjoy, but it's not because it's a better MMO. It's because MMOs like WoW have diverted so far from the genre that it's hard to justify them being classed that way. With things like instances, LFD, arenas etc etc they have turned into something else. Only in the early days of WoW did you actually see it playing on it's MMO strings by having non-instanced bosses, open-world pvp, and when AV first launched I would dare to say it was big enough to require dedicated hosting.

It's not MMOs going F2P, it's people diverting away from the MMO concepts leading to a new genre (or diverting back to an old one). As you say yourself people believe they're paying for something that's not there, because the games they play no longer are MMOs. They just have the stamp.

About time... I'm really looking forward for this one.

Haha great caption!

@Ares42: Completely diverts from the original GW (which used instancing by choice, rather than necessity). A good example is some of the boss fights they've been showing off at the recent trade shows, where literally hundreds of players join in to help fight.

Guild Wars is trying to be an MMO, it's taking the massively multiplayer idea but combining it with new ideas and gameplay people actually like and find fun to play.

It's also worth mentioning that investors have been incredibly impressed with the game and seem to be giving the developers as much time as they need to perfect it.. Where as with Old Republic we've heard very, very negative investor reports. The subscription isn't the only issue with the game, but it's clear more and more people are realising that it's not a good model to support a game, it's not good for the fans and not as profitable. (and again, Guild Wars and GW2 make money solely by selling the game at retail, expansions and cosmetic items in an online store).

Good luck with the $60 release + subscription model.

I give it about a 6-8 months before it tanks or goes F2P.

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42: (and again, Guild Wars and GW2 make money solely by selling the game at retail, expansions and cosmetic items in an online store).

Oh, so it does micro-transactions......

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42: Completely diverts from the original GW (which used instancing by choice, rather than necessity). A good example is some of the boss fights they've been showing off at the recent trade shows, where literally hundreds of players join in to help fight.

Guild Wars is trying to be an MMO, it's taking the massively multiplayer idea but combining it with new ideas and gameplay people actually like and find fun to play.

It's also worth mentioning that investors have been incredibly impressed with the game and seem to be giving the developers as much time as they need to perfect it.. Where as with Old Republic we've heard very, very negative investor reports. The subscription isn't the only issue with the game, but it's clear more and more people are realising that it's not a good model to support a game, it's not good for the fans and not as profitable. (and again, Guild Wars and GW2 make money solely by selling the game at retail, expansions and cosmetic items in an online store).

I'm excited for GW2 too, but this news article is about SWTOR. Go hype GW2 in the GW2 forums, bro.

@jmrwacko said:

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42: Completely diverts from the original GW (which used instancing by choice, rather than necessity). A good example is some of the boss fights they've been showing off at the recent trade shows, where literally hundreds of players join in to help fight.

Guild Wars is trying to be an MMO, it's taking the massively multiplayer idea but combining it with new ideas and gameplay people actually like and find fun to play.

It's also worth mentioning that investors have been incredibly impressed with the game and seem to be giving the developers as much time as they need to perfect it.. Where as with Old Republic we've heard very, very negative investor reports. The subscription isn't the only issue with the game, but it's clear more and more people are realising that it's not a good model to support a game, it's not good for the fans and not as profitable. (and again, Guild Wars and GW2 make money solely by selling the game at retail, expansions and cosmetic items in an online store).

I'm excited for GW2 too, but this news article is about SWTOR. Go post GW2 videos in the GW2 forums, bro.

He can't. He's a GW2 fanboy who can't accept that some people want TOR more than GW2. I will be playing both, but I think TOR looks better, and I know I love TOR after playing it for the past month.

@Edwardryu said:

actually, I don't understand MMO why I have to pay even more after buying. subscription? my ass. once you paid for it, you don't need to pay more if it is not DLC. that's why I never play this kind of bullshit including WOW, possibly Diablo 3 or whatever. what a stupid people are! they don't even realize that they pay even more and more. one time you buy. that's all. don't want to waste my damn money for nothing.

actually I find it rather hilarious someone can't understand why they charge a monthly fee. Anyone one with two braincells should be able to figure it out. When you have to pay GM, Server Cost, Server Maintenance, the world is EVER CHANGING...Look at WoW now and WoW back when it released..now tell me you actually are dumb enough to think that work didn't cost them anything to do. There is so much extra cost involved with an MMO vs a single player game.

Again even a retard could figure it out.

now if you want to argue that the fee is too high...fine...but that has nothing to do with the "WHY" they charge a sub.

actually I retract what I said about finding it hilarious there are still people that don't understand "why" it's done...I find it pathetic.

I need to know how this whole thing turns out.

@Ares42 said:

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42: (and again, Guild Wars and GW2 make money solely by selling the game at retail, expansions and cosmetic items in an online store).

Oh, so it does micro-transactions......

No more than World of Warcraft does (and Old Republic will have them too).

@jmrwacko said:

I'm excited for GW2 too, but this news article is about SWTOR. Go hype GW2 in the GW2 forums, bro.

I felt it was relevant to the discussion. It's a prime example of how modern MMO's can have exciting gameplay without relying on the standard formula everything else is using and how payment and development costs, etc can be covered by other means than just a flat subscription.. Which is exactly what we were discussing. I can't really point to any other games doing anything similar, or else I would.

Also, name calling is a poor defence for any argument.

Well color me excited, well not really. I'm cautiously interested, but I'm not convinced yet EA.

and it will go F2P next year.

Wow, what a terrible date.

1) It's too late in the year to get proper boxed sales for Christmas presents (unless the goal was "Consumers should purchase at Origin.com!").

2) It's so late in the year that boxed pre-order customers will have issues actually getting their copies before the New Year's break is over (unless the goal was "Consumers should purchase at Origin.com!").

3) When the servers melt down on Days One-Ten, Bioware-Austin's employees will either all be on call for the holidays (or more likely, all but unable to even leave work).

Why not simply rename the article to "EA is 'The Grinch That Stole Christmas' for boxed purchasers and their employees".

It'll be nice playing this game over Christmas.

However, do you reckon they'll bother with the traditional MMO holiday decorations being so close to launch?

Hopefully this does well. Bioware's reputation has taken a hit in the eyes of some after DA2.

It's a shame they left it this late considering the whole Star Wars Blu-ray debacle could be the final nail in the franchises coffin, LOL. Not sure how many people... who aren't crazy or 5... still love Star Wars?

Two words E.A. Mass & Effect ; )

@ptys said:

It's a shame they left it this late considering the whole Star Wars Blu-ray debacle could be the final nail in the franchises coffin, LOL. Not sure how many people... who aren't crazy or 5... still love Star Wars?

Two words E.A. Mass & Effect ; )

Uh...much as I love ME, maybe you wanna take a look at this before you pronounce SW "dead": http://www.gigwise.com/news/67207/Star-Wars-The-Complete-Saga-Breaks-All-Previous-Worldwide-Sales-Records

Remember: The internet, especially enthusiast sites, represents a minuscule amount of the population. And it's highly likely with these numbers that the people screaming "BOYCOTT" the loudest were the ones there on day 1 complaining about how they were purchasing it.

Delay in 3... 2... 1...

@Tom_Shaw said:

Wow, what a terrible date.

...

3) When the servers melt down on Days One-Ten, Bioware-Austin's employees will either all be on call for the holidays (or more likely, all but unable to even leave work).

I think this is the most important point concerning the repercussions of this release date. I'm sure "the business" and/or pride were the main factors in the release date, so I guess it's not so surprising. Impacts Bioware AND lots of EA staff too - who knows, Origin may also buckle under pressure!

@holybins said:

@Tom_Shaw said:

Wow, what a terrible date.

...

3) When the servers melt down on Days One-Ten, Bioware-Austin's employees will either all be on call for the holidays (or more likely, all but unable to even leave work).

I think this is the most important point concerning the repercussions of this release date. I'm sure "the business" and/or pride were the main factors in the release date, so I guess it's not so surprising. Impacts Bioware AND lots of EA staff too - who knows, Origin may also buckle under pressure!

Yeah, 2 years of beta and competent well paid engineers are no match for a mmo launch in 2011

EA and BioWare really must not care about their employees to launch this over Christmas. Guarantees those people will be pulled away from their families to monitor the launch and iron out server issues.

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42 said:

@WinterSnowblind said:

@Ares42: (and again, Guild Wars and GW2 make money solely by selling the game at retail, expansions and cosmetic items in an online store).

Oh, so it does micro-transactions......

No more than World of Warcraft does (and Old Republic will have them too).

Doesn't really matter, it's the same thing re-branded. It's just the newest marketing thing, and getting people to call it "free to play" as if that's something new and exciting is just the cherry on top. The service is still dependent on getting regular payments from the costumers. If you prefer paying for overpriced fluff rather than having a monthly fee, that's your prerogative. But don't think for a second that those games can survive (or would continue with those systems) if they didn't end up with as much or more money than the alternative pricing structures. It's been proven time and time again, micro-transactions = people spend more money. Maybe not you, but people do.

I have two friends who are hardcore Star Wars fans. They've been waiting for this game ever since it was first talked about years ago. They were lucky enough to be able to beta test it and neither of them can shut up about how awesome it is.

From what I hear from NDA people, SWTOR has major issues and isn't ready for a prime-time WoW-killing (or even Rifts-competing) launch. Causes for early launch: quarterly performance bonuses for management to ship by holiday/biz modeling that says holiday sales window>shorter tail from crappier game. Whether they lose money from lack of polish is up in the air i guess, but you really have to put your best foot forward with MMOs...
 
Anyways, they need to do big, big business to break even. Production estimates are around $300m...

Huh. Never knew Ray was black.
 
On topic: I'm not going to get this game. As reductive as it sounds, this is WoW gameplay with a Bioware story and Star Wars furnishings on top. WoW's gameplay equates to tedium for me, if I want a BioWare story I can play Mass Effect, and Star Wars... well... I'm not huge on giving that franchise any more money. And then there's that $15 sub fee, which barely seems maintainable these days.

@Jumanji said:

From what I hear from NDA people, SWTOR has major issues and isn't ready for a prime-time WoW-killing (or even Rifts-competing) launch. This is related to quarterly performance bonuses for management to ship by holiday/biz wanting the holiday sales window. Whether they lose money from lack of polish is up in the air i guess, but you really have to put your best foot forward with MMOs...

I've been in the beta for about 6 months and I've played every class to at least level 25 and i can say that the game is pretty fucking on point. At certain points there have been lag issues, there was a side quest and a story quest that didn't complete right but i was able to restart the quests and lost about 15 minutes on each, and bioware claims some of the endgame maps are inaccurate but i haven't seen it. It seems that all these things are beta problems and from what I've read in patch logs, the two quests I've had issues with have both been fixed.

I'm sure, though, that there will be problems during launch. It's an MMO. All the beta testing in the world can't prepare you for what happens when thousands and thousands of people launch your game at once (which is probably why they're giving people who preorder early access).

I can say that some stories are better than others. Even though I'm a light side guy, I prefer the Sith Warrior story over his counterpart, the Jedi Guardian. I prefer the Smuggler's story over the Bounty Hunter's.

Stories and launch bugs aside, though, playing each character is exactly as fun as you want it to be. And how fun is that? A bit more fun than WoW, just about as fun as 15 bucks a month.

@ptys said:

It's a shame they left it this late considering the whole Star Wars Blu-ray debacle could be the final nail in the franchises coffin, LOL. Not sure how many people... who aren't crazy or 5... still love Star Wars?

Two words E.A. Mass & Effect ; )

The way I see it, those movies are less star wars than swtor is, at this point. They really don't have anything to do with each other.

@Norusdog: Unfortunately you can't fix people's stupidity with a sharp comment reply.

@Undeadpool said:

@ptys said:

It's a shame they left it this late considering the whole Star Wars Blu-ray debacle could be the final nail in the franchises coffin, LOL. Not sure how many people... who aren't crazy or 5... still love Star Wars?

Two words E.A. Mass & Effect ; )

Uh...much as I love ME, maybe you wanna take a look at this before you pronounce SW "dead": http://www.gigwise.com/news/67207/Star-Wars-The-Complete-Saga-Breaks-All-Previous-Worldwide-Sales-Records

Remember: The internet, especially enthusiast sites, represents a minuscule amount of the population. And it's highly likely with these numbers that the people screaming "BOYCOTT" the loudest were the ones there on day 1 complaining about how they were purchasing it.

Damnit! I knew that was coming... LOL. Well I guess it was more what I was wishing rather than the actual reality of the situation. In fairness though this release has been a long time coming, much like the Star Wars DVD so it's always going to come strong out of the gate. I definitely think though, being an former HUUUUGGEEE! Star Wars fan and hearing opinions of other loyalists, the franchise is losing alot of it's core audience due to poor decision making at the hands of George Lucas.

@somethingdumb said:

@Jumanji said:

From what I hear from NDA people, SWTOR has major issues and isn't ready for a prime-time WoW-killing (or even Rifts-competing) launch. This is related to quarterly performance bonuses for management to ship by holiday/biz wanting the holiday sales window. Whether they lose money from lack of polish is up in the air i guess, but you really have to put your best foot forward with MMOs...

I've been in the beta for about 6 months and I've played every class to at least level 25 and i can say that the game is pretty fucking on point. At certain points there have been lag issues, there was a side quest and a story quest that didn't complete right but i was able to restart the quests and lost about 15 minutes on each, and bioware claims some of the endgame maps are inaccurate but i haven't seen it. It seems that all these things are beta problems and from what I've read in patch logs, the two quests I've had issues with have both been fixed.

I'm sure, though, that there will be problems during launch. It's an MMO. All the beta testing in the world can't prepare you for what happens when thousands and thousands of people launch your game at once (which is probably why they're giving people who preorder early access).

I can say that some stories are better than others. Even though I'm a light side guy, I prefer the Sith Warrior story over his counterpart, the Jedi Guardian. I prefer the Smuggler's story over the Bounty Hunter's.

Stories and launch bugs aside, though, playing each character is exactly as fun as you want it to be. And how fun is that? A bit more fun than WoW, just about as fun as 15 bucks a month.

as a fellow in the same situation (4 months instead of 6) i concur!

I'm in the beta, personally. The game is not fun at all, unless you seriously want WoW circa 2006. Some people may claim that it sounds fine, but ask yourself this: Do you really want to start over in WoW all over again, from level 1? To make matters worse, the design decisions reek of laziness.

Examples:

The first quest I found, as a jedi knight no less, was to kill 15 "flesh raiders," which are basically space orcs.

It took about 6 hours from starting that jedi knight before I actually got a lightsaber.

There was another quest to collect 6 cat teeth. Cats would only drop 1 tooth each.

The gameplay mechanics are carbon copies of WoW's gameplay mechanics.

In the hours I played, I never saw more than 3 conversation options available. The conversation system was limited to half of the Mass Effect sphere, with clearly-indicated "good," "neutral," and "evil" options. I never saw a quest conversation, save the instances, where what you said had an actual effect on the outcome of events. I also never saw a quest that was remotely interesting in terms of story.

It's like they took the standard couple of paragraphs of flavor text you find in regular MMO quests, but made you either listen through it or mash the space bar to get through it quicker, sprinkled in with the occasional bit where your character either says something nice, normal, or nasty.

Like I said, Bioware took the laziest routes possible with the game.

This makes me happy because A) I don't really have time at the moment to dive into this anyways, B) I preordered the stupid edition and don't really have the funds to pay for it just yet and C) My computer is very old and hopefully by the time this comes out I will have built a new one.

The only thing I'm bummed about is that my old WoW guild that I'll b e rejoining decided to roll sith...no wookie for me ._.;;;

@Rawson: I played as a Trooper so I had a different story from you but I found it pretty entertaining myself. I'm really interested to see what happens with my squad can't wait to confront the enemies I'm trying to track down. I can't wait to get further into it.

There were definitely lots of "get or kill this amount of this" quests but I like having those kind of quests to do along the way to the primary story quest. There were actually some pretty cool side quests that involved a decent short stories as well and your decisions had an affect on the characters involved. The controls and combat felt like WoW and many other MMOs but that's actually the way I prefer them to.

I guess what it comes down to is that you didn't like it and I totally did. I think the conversation system while limited to the simple 3 choices is great to keep you engaged in the story. I've never been so pulled by a MMO's story before. The story in MMOs is usually few and far between. Yet, in SWTOR it's constantly going on and your involved with your personal squad, higher ranked officers, spyies. politicians in the senate etc. It's just huge and awesome and your decisions however simple they are do make a difference in the story.

That something that's never really been done in an MMO. All this focus on story kept me engaged in the game more than any other MMO I've played.

If you've wanted more story in your MMO then you should totally check out SWTOR. Obviously, if you're a fan of the Star Wars universe then that will help.

Plus, flashpoints and operations are fun. Space combat is fun and a nice change of pace from the normal MMO gameplay every now and then.

There are a bunch of choices out there for MMO players now but after playing it I think SWTOR is definitely a good one.

As long as ME3 lives up to expectations, bioware is safe in my eyes

Not sure if want.

@ozhenson said:

As long as ME3 lives up to expectations, bioware is safe in my eyes

I have a feeling that Mass Effect 3 will be good but not great. As a fan of the Mass Effect series, played both games and read all the books, I am tempering expectations. EA is pushing multiplayer too hard in all of their games, like Dead Space for example although I would've liked a horde mode type mode, when no one really wants it. Even the very thought of paying for a Mass Effect game where a potion of the disc is some kind of multiplayer puts me off. Plus all this talk about bringing new people into the trilogy and seeing some of the character designs clearly be influenced by that has me worried, this might be Dragon Age 2 all over again. I'm expecting Mass Effect 3 to be good and if it's a crap I'll forget about it and continue to love the lore that has been established up to this point.

@CL60 said:

@akiz_jack said:

Disappointed how Australia would miss the launch of The Old Republic. It'll probably be months before we get our hands on the game.

You could import a copy, it's not IP locked.

That is one option, but I'm worried about latency issues.

@ptys: Yeah, I was hoping with the failure of the Clone Wars movie that maybe people were smartening up to Lucas' BS tactics, but no. And I say that as a Star Wars fan.