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Sticking the Landing

Patrick's lengthy conversation with Entertainment Weekly writer Jeff Jensen on that ending, the concept of fan entitlement, and the perils of player agency.

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UPDATE: Make sure you read my story from last week, too: "When It's Over, It's Over." I consider this a compliment to that.

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[Note: This story does contain spoilers about the ending to Mass Effect 3 and TV show The Sopranos.]

The conversation about Mass Effect 3 continues, albeit one that's died down in the past week. That's unsurprising, as players wait to hear about BioWare's next move.

Will the studio change the ending? I'm betting not. Will the studio release downloadable content that provides more context and closure, and will that probably have been the plan all along? I'd say that's likely, but remains unclear.

As part of my story last week about the intense, polarizing, and government-filled reaction to the ending, I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Entertainment Weekly senior writer Jeff Jensen, himself a fellow Mass Effect fan, devotee at the shrine of Lost, and a frequent commentator on pop culture. Much of our conversation did not make it into my piece, but it felt worth sharing, especially the discussions about the concept of fan "entitlement," the precarious nature of endings, and the design struggles of player agency.

Let's contextualize this a bit, too.

This chat happened just as BioWare made its first public statement to fans, and Jensen had not finished the game, though he had read about the endings. As such, we didn't dive much into the narrative misgivings players with the final moments of Mass Effect 3 (which, believe me, I'm with you on), and focuses on the bigger picture.

Hope you enjoy it. It's a bit talky.

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Mass Effect 3 was the culmination of hundreds of hours of playing in a universe for many people.
Mass Effect 3 was the culmination of hundreds of hours of playing in a universe for many people.

Jeff Jensen: I’ll be honest with you, I only began playing Mass Effect 3 about a week and a half ago. I actually wasn’t really into it in the beginning, and I got distracted by other things, so I have to return to it, but catching up to the controversy is fascinating.

Giant Bomb: It’s interesting because, unlike other mediums, when there’s a television show, when theres’s a finale, or there’s a movie that’s a conclusion to some multi-part series, you can consume that in an hour-and-a-half, two hours. Mass Effect 3 took me 40 hours to finish. It’s not as simple as just booting it up one night so you can catch up, and find out what happened.

Jensen: You felt burned? Were you burned, personally?

GB: Not really. I was disappointed. They were going for something a little more audacious and bittersweet, and I do think a lot of the reaction has stemmed from that. A lot of people play these games to be the good guy that accomplishes everything, and video game endings, as a whole, the trope is that you’re the hero that’s unbeatable and everything turns out alright in the end. They went for something a little more mixed: things are out of your control. Bad things are going to happen no matter what you do, what choice you make. People have some real trouble processing that. Some wanted this “you saved the princess” ending that games have always have. Personally, as a player, it’s really important that they’re having this reaction. You don’t see that very often with a video game.

Jensen: A couple things about that. To prepare for this interview and other things that I’m working on, I actually went and read some sites and actually spoiled everything.

What I find interesting about what you're saying is that...it’s an interesting nuance that you’re talking about. It sounds like whatever scenario you choose, Earth blows up, right?

GB: Earth doesn’t necessarily get destroyed, but the mass relays do get destroyed. The thing that has allowed the universe to be unified, that goes away. In some sense, it’s the universe starting over. Some of them, Shepard dies, some of them, Shepard lives, but as far as I can tell, none of the endings I saw, and none of the endings I’ve read about, involve you saving the day in every capacity. There is no way, no matter what you do, that everything’s going to be alright for everybody. Bad shit happens at the end of Mass Effect 3, and there are consequences for that. I do think that’s part of the reaction--it’s an interesting reaction for BioWare to purposely provoke, but I think it’s an important one. In some way, it’s a commentary on the fact that these games are largely about player choice, and at the end, there’s a subversion of that. Part of this is out of your hands. Maybe that’s looking into it too much, but I do get a sense that there’s a purposeful subversion of the player to reflect that no matter what you do, bad things are going to happen.

Jensen: I really like what you’re saying. It sounds like what BioWare really wanted exactly the kind of dialogue that we are having here, which is, I think, they hoped we could get to the end and everyone that plays this game...it’s having exactly the kind of emotional experience that you’re having but also the kind of reflective experience that you’re having, which seems really worthwhile, and pretty quality. But instead, it gets unfortunately minimized into just the simple issue of satisfaction and catharsis and all that.

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GB: Specifically, Lost was the first analogy that came to mind. I’m sure, as someone that writes a lot about TV and movies, you witness fan entitlement, or the sense of entitlement that fans feel when they’re on this long journey. Whether it’s a series of movies over several years or a TV show over several years, fans come to expect certain things. I’m curious what you’ve perceived over the years, whether from Lost or other shows and movies, how creators in those mediums deal with that sense of entitlement from fans, given the creators themselves have a vision in mind for how they want things to play out.

Jensen: What I would say that the controversies around the finales of Lost and Mass Effect and other examples, too, that we see in pop culture, like for example last year with the television show The Killing, which also kind of flummoxed a lot of people with how they ended the first season. What we are reminded of is that in entertainment, and especially in the mediums of television and video games, they are ultimately service industries. Which is to say the customer is always right, and that’s going to be frustrating for storytellers to hear because ultimately you exist, your product exists, at the whims and desire of your consumer base. If they’re happy, if they’re unhappy, they’re right. Even if they’re wrong, they’re right. You have to deal with it, right? You have to deal with it.

You look at BioWare’s response to this, the Facebook post last [week], and they are basically out there saying “We hear you, we understand your complaints, we’re looking at some possibilities about what to do, but we want you to know that we hear you.” This just goes to show that even if, behind the scenes, the creators at BioWare are like “Damnit, they didn’t get our story! To address the complaints represent a compromise of our artistic vision.” That sucks, but they’re right. You just have to deal with it.

The similarities between Lost and Mass Effect--there’s another similarity, too. Over the past decade in television, we’ve seen a creative medium come into its own and take some bold leaps forward, but there’s still some room to grow. I think after The Sopranos--or, more specifically, after Twin Peaks--I think a lot of TV storytellers became enamored with this notion that TV writing can be an art and I can be an artist, and I can have my own show and tell my own story and it’s my story, my world, my rules, and I’m going to tell you a story and you’re going to listen to it, and you’re going to follow it, and if I bring you to a certain end that is maybe not necessarily a happy ending or the ending that you want, it’s still my story. It has to be my story if it has any artistic integrity.

The audience push back is “no.” As much as the viewer benefits in this era of artist auteur television, in which the most interesting television is being made by singular creators with singular visions that are just telling their own story, viewers who become fans and who immerse themselves and give themselves over to it and devote so much time to thinking about it and talking about it and dreaming into it, they get a sense of ownership. Their agenda becomes projected onto your agenda. If you’re a writer, if you’re a television network, you benefit from that and you can’t run away from that because they’re keeping you in business. When you get to the end, sometimes what you have is this effect, this clash between shows that the artist, the writer, was creating and the show that the viewer, the fan, thought they were watching. When there’s no sync-up, there’s profound dissatisfaction. For the creators of Lost or the creator of The Sopranos, David Chase, that kind of sticks. At the very least, what you hope for is “Well, okay, you didn’t like my ending, but can you appreciate it? Or can we talk about it?” But, instead, that hopeful conversation gets swallowed up by the vitriol that comes with a more consumer orientation that’s more “I expected one thing and instead you gave me a lemon,” if that makes sense.

When The Sopranos faded to black without absolute resolution, not everyone was happy.
When The Sopranos faded to black without absolute resolution, not everyone was happy.

With video games, it’s interesting because I think video games are on a similar creative trajectory. Video games, the art of video games, has grown by leaps and bounds, I mean, ever since its introduction. The entire history of this medium is defined by radical innovation every other year, it seems. The exhilarating part of watching this industry is watching a medium of entertainment grow and blossom before its eyes, and there’s another aspect to it, too, which is very different from watching any other entertainment medium blossom over the past, you know, 100 years of pop culture, which is...I don’t know if people who were fans of movies or fans of rock music during the golden age of those periods said things like “it’s really cool now, but just wait 10 years from now, because we can all be where it’s going.” Video games are different. The best video games not only are really, really good, but as of right now, they capture your imagination for what they could be 10 to 15 years from now. We have this weird dilemma where we’re exulting what the medium can do, even as we’re bucking up against its limitations here and now. And that brings me to Mass Effect.

The interesting thing about Mass Effect is that it’s on the cutting edge of this whole idea of player choice. There’s a sort of choose your own adventure kind of thing. My dilemma playing Mass Effect is usually, as much as I really appreciate the idea and I understand what they go for and I understand how it affects the story, at the same time, I’m always keenly aware that it never really does what I really want it to do. There’s some kind of creative, artificial intelligence within the game that is constantly changing the game in robust, profound ways in response to your choices, instead of just shunting you to one, two or three other options that don’t feel dramatically different from each other. They’re not choose your own adventure games, it’s choose your own nuance games. It seems like Mass Effect 3 butts up against that, especially with its ending, and also butts up against something else, too, which is...hearing about the controversy about Mass Effect 3, it makes me wonder if the artist creators of the game over at BioWare, how much control over their storytelling do these artists really want to seed to the player?

At the end of the day, one of the exciting storylines that is emerging out of the past 10 years of video games are these creators who see video games as a means of artistic expression, a way of telling a story that expresses ideas that they want to challenge people with, that they want to get people talking to. And the most impactful way to do that is to limit potential interpretations and choices in a story, instead of opening it up open source like and making it everything you want it to be.

It seems to me that these possible endings that Mass Effect 3 gives us at the end of the game are like “Yeah, your choices throughout the game have affected your fate in terms of whether you live or die, they affect, to some degree, your character, but we still want a certain [set] of pre-determined endings that are designed to facilitate the certain point that we have about the world, certain ideas that we want you consider, certain conventions that we want to debunk, and pursuing an artistic agenda like that is tricky when you also want to create a game in which the player, in some ways, is being lead to believe they are the defining artistic decision maker in the game, if that makes sense.

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GB: There’s definitely that rub between the player and the creator. An unintended consequence of BioWare’s player choice model was an end where players felt like they were gonna have more agency over that conclusion. And maybe it's not so much that they had written their own ending in their mind, but they’d made all these decisions along the way. Knowing game development, a lot of this is largely just a function of they have 18 months to produce a thing, so there’s only so many outcomes they can produce in X amount of time, but my large takeaway from all of this is that it’s a positive thing, showing how much players can care about a story.

But you’re right, once you’ve handed over the keys of the kingdom to the player, they also expect certain things. You can fall back to the passive entertainment experience excuse with TV and movies because the interactive part happens on the periphery and the creators can always retreat back to saying “at the end of the day, what matters is what’s canonical in the television series--that’s a passive experience that we’re writing and presenting.” But games aren’t that way. Mass Effect is definitely totally separate from that--it’s not just you shooting from the beginning of the level to the end of the level. You’re choosing which characters live and die, which races live and die, which planets survive and don’t. Once you’ve given people that power, you’ve opened the box, the genie is out of the bottle. Players feel like they should have this unique impact on this world and how it plays out, and it’s what makes the world "entitlement" feel...it doesn’t seem to work as well for the reaction. Entitlement’s a really easy word to apply to it, but in some sense, players should feel entitled when they’ve been told they’re the ones who are entitled to make these decisions.

When they get to an end that isn’t satisfying, an end where BioWare says they want to make a statement, that goes directly contrary to the player and the agency they had during that experience. I imagine, as a developer, that’s really tough, especially as games try to embrace this whole cinematic appeal and trying to take what lessons they can from other mediums. Games are inherently interactive, and when you start to take steps further to involving player in the story, you’re going to have consequences for the player’s emotional reaction when you take that away from them.

Jensen: There’s something that you’re also touching on here that I really like, which is a really good point. Regardless of your story, whatever medium you’re experiencing a story, what do we want from endings is a really big picture topic here. Some of the themes that you talked about at the beginning of our conversation here come into play, things like the video game experience offers you the chance to be a hero, and hero stories are all about taking their fate into their own hands and are able to impose their will on a world. They may succeed, they may fail, a lot of that depends on skill, but they get to impose their will on the world for better or worse. You go into a very long journey in which you are executing this kind of heroic function--you expect the opportunity to save the day. You think that should be an option that’s available to you, and, in this case, that’s not. In that way, a traditional ending, or what we want from an ending to that kind of story, is subverted. In other ways, just in general, what we want from endings is catharsis, especially a series finale.

When BioWare opened the box with players choices, it opened itself to this kind of reaction.
When BioWare opened the box with players choices, it opened itself to this kind of reaction.

Even though my guess is we may not see the Mass Effect the franchise, it seems to me what was being presented to us was that this is the end, this is the last game at least with this character, in a really involving, immersive, creative endeavor. Here, we really do see analogs to things like Lost or The Sopranos, where a fan base that’s large and rabid and loyal and passionate and really, really invested--they’re not only getting what the final game or final episode, the end of a story, they’re getting the door slammed on a huge part of their lives, a significant thing in their lives. To that end, an ending, then, must give you something more. There’s an expectation of something more. There’s something like a massive emotional catharsis. The ending of Lost really tried to go for that, they tried to win on emotion. “This is the end for all of us, my friends, and we’re all going away, in more ways than one. It’s been a long journey--bittersweet, sad, wonderful, joyous.” And they send us out with tears and a surge fo emotion. Lost completely triumphed int hat regard, but in other areas that people were expecting, the more intellectual areas, payoffs of certain storylines that people were invested in and mysteries that they were really invested in, the storytellers never said “We’re not necessarily as interested in that.” For a lot of people, that was a huge part of that entertainment experience, and they didn’t get it. The catharsis was incomplete.

There seems to be a similarity here with Mass Effect 3, with a fan base that has gone through these games and come to the end, and they want the full meal catharsis--they want everything. They want a heroic end, or the possibility of a heroic end. They want an emotional send-off, they want resolution of certain mysteries, and they all want it to be coherent and skillfully done, and all that. It sounds like Mass Effect just didn’t nail that landing.

GB: When I watched the end of Lost, the emotional arc worked perfectly fine. Yes, I was there for the mysteries and that was the fun of the week-to-week nature of that show, but at the end, I got the emotional closure with each of the characters. It’s different from player to player, just as with each viewer of Lost or any other television show. But with Mass Effect, what they brought to the end was, yes, the mysteries were important, and, yes, the resolution of the conflict with the Reapers was important, but it was the player’s agency. People talk about it in terms of the ending, but it was really just about these very binary choices presented in front of you that didn’t seem to reflect the agency that players had brought in throughout this entire adventure. As a result, they didn’t get get closure through their own agency, which was the motivational factor for these three games, which is why they brought their saved games from one game to the next. It’s interesting to see BioWare run into that as they start to contemplate how they address the reaction.

Jensen: I’m reminded of that whole idea of the observer effect, as well as schrodinger's cat. There’s a world of possibilities inside that box, until you get to the end and you get to the action of opening that box, and looking at it, and in that moment, then, all possibilities collapse and one remains, and only that option remains. Ultimately, then, this experience that was defined by the romance of mystery and possibility suddenly now becomes only defined by this one concrete resolution.

I’m reminded that with Lost--this is a show, week after week, captured your imagination and allowed you to dream into it an infinite number of possibilities and they were really good and clever about it. “What is going on? What is going on?” The interesting thing that happened about the end of Lost is that I honestly think the ending of Lost was an attempt by the show runners to actually communicate a specific point that they had, but while retaining, for the viewer, the quality that they identified as the defining characteristic of Lost, which was mystery, which was should the legacy of this show be one in which we’re still debating and still wondering and theorizing and still speculating years afterwards. I think they thought that by not being clear and concrete and definitive on many of the mysteries that people wanted resolved, they felt they were remaining thematically and artistically true to their creative enterprise and the entertainment experience that we had, which was the conversation about it, the debating about it, the comparison of theories about it, the arguing over it. They tried to thread that needle right at the end with an ending about, “how can we give closure and how can we end the story on our terms that is also satisfying to the audience but is true to the greater whole of this show?” Tricky, tricky. Because it makes you aware that you fundamentally usually watch something and endings usually come to us.

When we get an ending to a story or a final chapter of a story or a final shot, you realize that they’re fundamnetally different animals than the entertainment experience that preceeded it as a whole. The entertainment experience that preceeds an ending is all about sustained tension and sustained mystery, and that final thing is just resolution.

Colored endings may have seemed clever on paper, but players did not respond very well.
Colored endings may have seemed clever on paper, but players did not respond very well.

Endings often just can’t win. Most screenwriters will tell you the hardest part of any movie, any story to tell, is just the end. It’s the thing that changes the most, it’s the endings that are the most fought over among collaborators, they’re the things that are just the hardest to land. Some people get it really, really right, some people get it really, really wrong, and some people land anywhere in-between and our attitudes about them can change. The thing about controversial endings, though, is this: five years from now, my friend, we will all say that the ending of Mass Effect 3 was genius! We’ll catch up to it.

I’m not going to say that people feel that way about Lost, but I would say that people feel that way about The Sopranos. Many, many years after the ending of The Sopranos, The Sopranos just ignited a storm of “oh, that was genius! Genius!” “Genius? Are you kidding me? They wimped out! They didn’t have the guts to tell us what they wanted!” Which is the final fate of Tony Soprano. Defenders of that finale said “Yes, they did. Don’t you get it?” and the people who hate it go “Wait, you’re saying that I’m stupid?” And you go into that downward spiral. Years later, the truth of the matter is, the people who hated it then are probably no greater fans of it now, but in the cooling of it all, the cooling of the vitriol, there is some appreciation. There is grudging appreciation in that camp of “I get what he was saying. I get what he was going for.” And, ultimately, what you remember is that “I defined my enjoyment of that series not by that final moment, but by seven, eight seasons of the greatest television show even written.” That’s how we remember The Sopranos. I think that’s how that’s the fans of Lost are going to remember that show. I think that, for better or worse, the final season of that show will be remembered as something of a cautionary tale. I happen to love it. Do I love it as much as the five seasons before? No, but I really respect and like and was moved by what they did. I think, the further we get away from Lost, it will get more defined by the things that it did right and revolutionary versus the issue of audience satisfaction.

I think Mass Effect as a franchise, these three games taken together, I just can’t see how it’s not regarded as anything less than a landmark. There’s so many things to enjoy about these games and this world and the creative accomplishment of this series than just those final moments. When I played those first two games, the narrative arc of it is maybe one of the things I like the least. I love the way it looks, I love the character design, I love these worlds--there’s so much to really enjoy and love about it. Given some time, people will remember all of what they loved about this thing and now the resolution of it all.

Patrick Klepek on Google+

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knightlyknave

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I've never seen Lost so this article didn't really make any sense to me. They almost talked about Lost more than Mass Effect.

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ssejllenrad

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ME3 ending is not like Lost or Sopranos. ME3 ending is more like Smallville ending. Uber rushed.

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imac2much

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@mrpandaman said:

@Kamisaki said:

Great article, Patrick. Loved reading the full conversation.

Everyone who feels strongly one way or the other about ME3's ending should listen to this episode of the PC Gamer Podcast. http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/pc-gamer-us-podcast-310-mass-effect-3-spoilers/

They have one of the best discussions about the whole thing that I've heard yet, they treat both sides with respect, and they actually managed to make me excited about the prospect of further games in the Mass Effect universe even with the galaxy all shot to hell like it is. If you don't believe that's possible, you'll just have to listen and see for yourself.

Awesome podcast, I'll echo your sentiment and say that people should listen to that podcast for the reason listed above.

I'm a little late to the party, but I found this podcast a bit difficult to listen to. Even though they went out of their way to talk about how the general journalistic press was treating discontent fans poorly (as whiners or crybabies) and downplaying the use of the loaded word "entitlement," they STILL could not help themselves from generalizing petitioners and fans and using some strawman arguments to take a certain portion of everyone's general discontent and attack it... without addressing the problem at large. Namely, I don't think everyone was displeased with the ending because it was unhappy. I sure wasn't. I'm glad that they talked about *SPOILERS*

the endings of RDR and LAN as bittersweet endings. On a tangent, Odin Sphere had a very similar "bittersweet" ending as ME3 and I loved it! Fans did not seethe and outrage at these melancholy but overall great endings.

*END SPOILERS* Yet the PC Gamer podcast spent a good 30 minutes or more talking about how endings don't have to be happy, and that people liked other unhappy endings because they weren't as "vested" as in ME3... I call hogwash :) I am unhappy with the ending because marketing promised that our endings will be distinct (over 16 endings promised) and that our choices matter. While the latter portion is debatable (or choices matter... by adding to a score), the former is not. There is a green, blue, and red ending, and pretty much everything else is identical (except for the couple of people who exit the Normandy). The PC Gamer podcast did not address the fact that ME Universe codex and Arrival DLC explicitly dictate that the destruction of a Mass Relay will also have grave consequences with the solar system it is in (hello Earth?).

I loved the game, heck I loved the last mission. I do wish they didn't make the "galactic readiness score" so obvious, but overall I thought it was a great game. I just expected more out of the ending than a complete deus ex machina with a character we had never met or heard of in the prior 200+ hours we spent in the game. I can't stand when video games do that (hello Zemus), and not many movies that I know of do that either (other than the oft-compared and horrible end to the Matrix trilogy).

In conclusion, I have no problem with sad or unhappy or bittersweet endings, and I don't mind if all endings leave the Mass Effect Relays destroyed. However, I strongly feel that they did not lead up to that ending in a satisfying manner, with poor reveals, little care shown to characters, and identical endings other than color for the "important" decision at the end of the game. I've listened to many journalistic press podcasts do little but bash complainers with strawman arguments, and while I hoped the PC Gamer guys would be better than that, they sadly were not.

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Goggen240

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I've read all of the comments, and I don't think I have all that much to add beyond what has been said already, and it's probably too late, but I think I should give it a shot anyway. Wall of text ahead, you have been warned.

My problems with the ending is not that it wasn't "happy" or that I "didn't get to save the princess". It was that it was poorly written, and it broke promises BioWare had made to us.

Implicitly, they promised to continue making art of the same quality that they had in the first games. I have defended video games as art for a very long time, to friends and family and random passers-by, and the example I used to use was the Mass Effect series.

In Mass Effect 2, I had one of the most dramatic and tragic scenes in a love story ever. As my Shepard prepared for what could be her last ever mission, possibly sacrificing her friends, allies and herself to save humanity and intelligent life in the galaxy, she looked over to a picture of Liara. Shepard had someone she cared about, who wasn't there, and it was a deeply personal reason to fight this fight and make these sacrifices.

It didn't take more than 15 seconds, but that moment was *art*. And it was a kind of art that only exists in video games; that moment happened as a result of my choices as a player, and no other medium allows that. I went with Liara over Kaidan, and didn't go with anyone in Mass Effect 2 (Kelly Chambers doesn't count). I didn't even have to go with anyone at all in Mass Effect 1, but I did.

Patrick wrote a long news story about how he was going to play Mass Effect 3, but without Miranda, because she was dead, and that was the story he had created. I'm going to spoil the ending of Mass Effect 3 for him now if he *had* saved Miranda in Mass Effect 2. The final impact she has on the ending is "25". If you don't play any multiplayer at all, it's 12,5.

I did not think the ending was bad because it wasn't happy. I thought the ending was bad because it was wholly *inadequate*.

From the start, BioWare promised us that our choices would impact the final moments. That it wouldn't be just a choice between A, B and C, and that we wouldn't be given the exact same ending FMV that everyone else gets. As consumers, that's false advertisement, and we're "entitled" to be outraged.

But as appreciators of art, we are "entitled" to be outraged because the art is SO BAD, from artists that were SO GOOD. Right up until the ending.

You can choose to save the quarians, or save the geth. My friend saved the quarians. My other friend saved the geth. I saved *both*, because I'm awesome, because of the choices *I* made, and because I've diligently transferred my unique save from computer to computer right up until the final moments. We all had *exactly* the same ending.

If they can fix this with DLC, and patch in a new ending, that's not artistic bankrupcy. They've even done that before. In the Shadow Broker DLC for Mass Effect 2, you can, as a result of your choices, have a powerful, touching moment with Liara, as she and Shepard admit they are still in love, and kiss. And for my second playthrough of Mass Effect 2, the exact same moment where Shepard looks over at the picture of Liara, became *more* powerful, because now there was someone to go back to, and there wasn't before that DLC. It became *better* art.

*That's* why I feel "entitled" to retake Mass Effect.

*EDIT*

While I was typing this, BioWare announced the Mass Effect 3 Extended Cut, coming this summer. Free of charge.

I am proud of BioWare for admitting to their mistake, and for EA for giving them the resources to fix it. But the weaselly worded press release is a *reeeeal* cause for concern. Do it right, BioWare. Make choices matter, make the best video game writing out there, and end it competently. Make art, BioWare.

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Zalathar

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When you try to “challenge” your audience by doing something you know they won't like, you run the risk of succeeding.

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Stop using "entitlement" Giantbomb, I don't think you or Entertainment know what it means.

Is EA "Entitled" to my wallet? Fuck no. As long as that's true, I'm not "entitled" to purchase their low-quality games. If they think their ending is so great - that's awesome! Because they can enjoy it all by themselves. I don't want your products anymore. I hope you're enjoying being homless, because you're not entitled to that salary either. You work for it. You work for me. And if I don't like the direction you take with games (ME3 is a joke, with or without its awful ending), I don't give you my money.

I spent last week replaying Baldur's Gate 2 and I'm seriously wondereing why they didn't replace James Vega with Minsc. Fuck, space marine Minsc would be 100x more interesting than "Hey I'm a Mexican-American"-Vega.

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Thanks, Patrick.

It's nice to know that, whether or not I agree with you guys on the issue of changing ME3's ending, I know that at least the issue of the ending's faults isn't something to be swept under the rug here.

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@Tennmuerti said:

@Mike76x said:

@Tennmuerti said:

1. They took away the indoctrination explanation and mechanic of Shepard being fully under Reaper control. They left all the beginnings of the indoctrination intact, and chose not to explain it.

2. They took out all the indoctrination? So your Shepard didn't have nightmares with oily shadows, and see people that weren't there? Never woke up on a battlefield that suddenly looked like a past dream?

The last time Shepard landed on a planet in an intact armor he was found in chunks. He wouldn't survive orbital re-entry, he probably would've fried before hitting the ground. Anything entering Earth's atmosphere has to deal with 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C) temperatures his armor was trashed an in no way able to survive that, then there's the actual impact, and according to you all the man-made structures that then fell on top of him.

1. Where is the statement that Shepard is indeed indopctrinated? Nowhere. It was a sequence that was there. They took it out. They changed the ending as a narative both on a global scale and on a local scale several times. Christ the conflict was not even initially meant to be synthetics vs. organics, it could have been dark matter. Who is to say that indoctrination was not their plan for Shepard and they they decided to scrap it along with the uncontrollable segment. Nowhere is it stated. Indoctrination of Shepard is fully possible as being one of their endings that got scrapped as an idea.
I do in fact fully believe that Sheppard being indoctrinated is one of the avenues Bioware explored.
It is not however the path they necessarily chose to keep.
It rmains speculation.

We can guess all we want.
One can speculate just as well the other way.
There is no definite proof.

2. You are assuming that nightmares are part of the indoctrination. This is just part of the indoctrination theory. You are again presenting it as if it is fact.
Shepard having nightmares can be just that him having nightmares. Any person under extreme pressure can have sleep issues.
Recurring dreams that have to do with your big real life issues are not uncomon.

They don't have to take shit out.
Because it is shit some people came up with.
It may very well be indoctrination related, but it might not.

Shepard "surviving" orbital re entry by himself in armor is just as plausible as Shepard surviving orbital re entry while on the Citadel.
He can be protected by the force fields present on the citadel that are protecting him duting the end sequence. Or he could be flung (since it's space and free fall) into a built up section of the Citadel and be protected inside a builing.
Citadel does not have to fall on top of him. That you even suggest that shows that you aren't looking for a serious argument. Just as frankly I am not on the indoc theory (since if it's true then it's just more shit at the end of the game like i mentioned several times)
Shepard can be on the occupied side of the Citadel and it fall on it's side that faces out, the space wall. Done. He is fully protected.

Fuck the Citadel does not even have to fall to Earth. It can still be spiralling in space after the explosion.
Shepard is just as likely to be lying in the rubble on the Citadel still in space.

Even him surviving in armor the way he did in ME2 is total bollocks.
Showing once again that Bioware does fuck up.
(just like the comical human proto reaper)


Honestly we can debate fine points for a long time.
But it will remain that there are currently no facts, just assumptions.
Frankly i don't care.
Indoctrination theory is shit to me not because it might be implausible or something, it migh very well be true.
But this theory removes the end completely. There is no end. Reapers be reaping. The epic conclusion to the trilogy has no final conclusion.
To me no ending is far worse then shit ending. I'm fine on my acceptance stage of the grief process.It might make the pain easier for some people who believe Bioware can't be so dumb as to have fucked up so badly and are actually super clever. It's a perfect denial stage bait.But their past track record does not concur. Bioware fucks up plenty and it's been their increasing trend in the last few years after joining EA. Their confessions on how fucked up the process of creating the ending was and how it was left untill the last moments just keeps on solidifiying this.You are fine with having no ending over a shit ending? All the more power to you. This is incredibly off topic by the way. If you want to convince people of how factual indoctrination theory is, this isn't the thread for it.

No ending is better because it leaves the possiblity for them to add more details and craft an actual ending that satisfies rather than have to withdraw what they gave us in an act of bending to fan pressures. I don't believe they should have to take it that far, they should hold proud to their authorial integrity, but also realize that leaving details unexplained and creating new questions with the ENDING is in fact the exact opposite of what an ending should be by definition. An ending to a story exists to give you a point to just walk away. Satisfied with what you experienced, reflective, uplifted, somber, whatever, Not every ending should be the same, as it should be in tune with the narrative presented in the moments leading up to it. But at the end, the audience's work should be done. We shouldn't have to ask why something happened, or what that means for the characters involved, because we should KNOW because that's what the ending TOLD us.

FAIR WARNING: I ramble and meander here. Stream of consciousness be what it be.

This whole ambiguity thing is total bullshit and as "art" is a fucking cop-out. As many of the podcasts and articles I have listened to/read have proven, everyone who has played Mass Effect as a whole comes away with an amazing and unique journey. THOSE are the discussions we should be having as the player. We should be sharing our journey, reveling in the moments we saw, and even more in the moments we DIDN'T see but others did. Those are the magic moments this series has brought to us and to gaming as a whole.

If we are left to speculate what happens at the end of this series, it will, as is plain to see, only create arguments, because all of our experiences are sooooo different. If we are not TOLD how things end, we will be forced to build our own theories (as shown by the Indoctrination Theory that is on it's own terribly polarizing) that no one will ultimately agree on, because, wouldn't you guess it, the game doesn't specifically tell us which is the right answer. WE WANT TO KNOW. Yes, we want to be told what to believe! That's the whole point of playing the game! Of ANY story! We don't have to think, we just have to take part in it, be lead through it. Be a part of it, yes, but also know that there is a large part of it that is still out of our control, that has been decided for us. That is what makes it exciting.

Fuck, long story short, whoever involved at Bioware decided that leaving the ending open to interpretation is lazy and uncreative, and ultimately afraid. And if they were afraid people wouldn't like what they had to say, well look at what happened. I cannont comprehend why anyone thought it was a good idea, but ultimately I'm sure it comes down to the biggest enemies in this industry: Money and Deadlines.

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@Kamisaki said:

Great article, Patrick. Loved reading the full conversation.

Everyone who feels strongly one way or the other about ME3's ending should listen to this episode of the PC Gamer Podcast. http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/pc-gamer-us-podcast-310-mass-effect-3-spoilers/

They have one of the best discussions about the whole thing that I've heard yet, they treat both sides with respect, and they actually managed to make me excited about the prospect of further games in the Mass Effect universe even with the galaxy all shot to hell like it is. If you don't believe that's possible, you'll just have to listen and see for yourself.

Awesome podcast, I'll echo your sentiment and say that people should listen to that podcast for the reason listed above.

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Great article, Patrick. Loved reading the full conversation.

Everyone who feels strongly one way or the other about ME3's ending should listen to this episode of the PC Gamer Podcast. http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/23/pc-gamer-us-podcast-310-mass-effect-3-spoilers/

They have one of the best discussions about the whole thing that I've heard yet, they treat both sides with respect, and they actually managed to make me excited about the prospect of further games in the Mass Effect universe even with the galaxy all shot to hell like it is. If you don't believe that's possible, you'll just have to listen and see for yourself.

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@Fishdingo5: Hate is too strong. I basically couldn't see what the "wonderment" of Lost was and kind of giggled when I found out what the ending turned out to be.

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who died?

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Was I the only person who hated Lost? I feel like such a pariah now :(

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They wrote a lousy ending, that's that. Maybe because they thought they could actually finish it with DLC and make more money that way. In any event, the vast, vast majority of games have endings that people are perfectly satisfied with. All this talk is missing the entire point.

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@Clonedzero: correct it is irrelevant in the context of this article

I get it you don't like the article, that's cool but calling him a terrible journalist because if it seems pretty ridiculous to me

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Anyone in the industry who isn't tackling this issue in the most fair and objective way possible--examining both sides of the issue without misrepresenting anyone or their arguments--is doing a huge disservice to games journalism.  Apparently, and sadly, it seems that also includes Patrick.
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@Clonedzero said:

@Butz: so the reason behind the huge outcry about the ME3 isn't relevant? are you kidding? its the entire point behind the entire article. without the ME3 ending situation this article wouldn't exist. thus them getting that simple fact right is pretty significant.

i get it. you like patrick, thats cool, i'd probably have a beer with him too. but he's a terrible journalist. don't stick up for him when he fails, it doesnt do anyone any good.

Exactly. If an article is based on poorly researched fact, then the entire read's bound to be tainted by baseless facts, and no-one likes reading baseless opinions. It takes less than 5 minutes of research to disprove Patrick's claim of us wanting a save the princess ending.

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@Tennmuerti said:

Indoctrination theory is shit to me not because it might be implausible or something, it migh very well be true.
But this theory removes the end completely. There is no end. Reapers be reaping. The epic conclusion to the trilogy has no final conclusion.

Yep and you've pinpointed the reason for the negative reaction to the ending. It was shit...and (arguably) the most well thought out alternative means they didn't finish the game. Either way, we got the shaft. Be it from an incoherent mess of an ending that doesn't follow the internal logic/tone of the series and discards the core tenant of the series (cause-effect). Or a false-ending that is cashing in on the goodwill of the fan-base for extra publicity and exposure while they prep the DLC true-ending.

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@Mike76x said:

1. They took away the indoctrination explanation and mechanic of Shepard being fully under Reaper control. They left all the beginnings of the indoctrination intact, and chose not to explain it.

2. They took out all the indoctrination? So your Shepard didn't have nightmares with oily shadows, and see people that weren't there? Never woke up on a battlefield that suddenly looked like a past dream?

The last time Shepard landed on a planet in an intact armor he was found in chunks. He wouldn't survive orbital re-entry, he probably would've fried before hitting the ground. Anything entering Earth's atmosphere has to deal with 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C) temperatures his armor was trashed an in no way able to survive that, then there's the actual impact, and according to you all the man-made structures that then fell on top of him.

Suddenly losing control of movement and falling under Reaper control isn't indoctrination. And that sequence seems to have actually survived in the form of a cutscene, except instead of the Reapers it's the Illusive Man who controls Shepard's movement.

There's no reason that Shepard would perceive the Reapers as the rachni do, let alone as humanoid figures.

There's nothing to support the boy not being real.

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@Butz: so the reason behind the huge outcry about the ME3 isn't relevant? are you kidding? its the entire point behind the entire article. without the ME3 ending situation this article wouldn't exist. thus them getting that simple fact right is pretty significant.

i get it. you like patrick, thats cool, i'd probably have a beer with him too. but he's a terrible journalist. don't stick up for him when he fails, it doesnt do anyone any good.

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@Clonedzero: That'd be a relevant point if the article was about why people don't like the ending rather than exploring the relationship between fans and the media they enjoy
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@Mike76x said:

@Tennmuerti said:

1. They took away the indoctrination explanation and mechanic of Shepard being fully under Reaper control. They left all the beginnings of the indoctrination intact, and chose not to explain it.

2. They took out all the indoctrination? So your Shepard didn't have nightmares with oily shadows, and see people that weren't there? Never woke up on a battlefield that suddenly looked like a past dream?

The last time Shepard landed on a planet in an intact armor he was found in chunks. He wouldn't survive orbital re-entry, he probably would've fried before hitting the ground. Anything entering Earth's atmosphere has to deal with 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C) temperatures his armor was trashed an in no way able to survive that, then there's the actual impact, and according to you all the man-made structures that then fell on top of him.

1.  Where is the statement that Shepard is indeed indopctrinated? Nowhere. It was a sequence that was there. They took it out. They changed the ending as a narative both on a global scale and on a local scale several times. Christ the conflict was not even initially meant to be synthetics vs. organics, it could have been dark matter. Who is to say that indoctrination was not their plan for Shepard and they they decided to scrap it along with the uncontrollable segment. Nowhere is it stated. Indoctrination of Shepard is fully possible as being one of their endings that got scrapped as an idea.
I do in fact fully believe that Sheppard being indoctrinated is one of the avenues Bioware explored.
It is not however the path they necessarily chose to keep. 
It rmains speculation.

We can guess all we want.
One can speculate just as well the other way.
There is no definite proof.
 
2. You are assuming that nightmares are part of the indoctrination. This is just part of the indoctrination theory. You are again presenting it as if it is fact.
Shepard having nightmares can be just that him having nightmares. Any person under extreme pressure can have sleep issues.
Recurring dreams that have to do with your big real life issues are not uncomon.

They don't have to take shit out.
Because it is shit some people came up with.
It may very well be indoctrination related, but it might not.

Shepard "surviving" orbital re entry by himself in armor is just as plausible as Shepard surviving orbital re entry while on the Citadel.
He can be protected by the force fields present on the citadel that are protecting him duting the end sequence. Or he could be flung (since it's space and free fall) into a built up section of the Citadel and be protected inside a builing.
Citadel does not have to fall on top of him. That you even suggest that shows that you aren't looking for a serious argument. Just as frankly I am not on the indoc theory (since if it's true then it's just more shit at the end of the game like i mentioned several times)
Shepard can be on the occupied side of the Citadel and it fall on it's side that faces out, the space wall. Done. He is fully protected.
 
Fuck the Citadel does not even have to fall to Earth. It can still be spiralling in space after the explosion.
Shepard is just as likely to be lying in the rubble on the Citadel still in space.

Even him surviving in armor the way he did in ME2 is total bollocks.
Showing once again that Bioware does fuck up.
(just like the comical human proto reaper)
 
 
Honestly we can debate fine points for a long time.
But it will remain that there are currently no facts, just assumptions.
Frankly i don't care.
Indoctrination theory is shit to me not because it might be implausible or something, it migh very well be true.
But this theory removes the end completely. There is no end. Reapers be reaping. The epic conclusion to the trilogy has no final conclusion.
To me no ending is far worse then shit ending.

I'm fine on my acceptance stage of the grief process.

It might make the pain easier for some people who believe Bioware can't be so dumb as to have fucked up so badly and are actually super clever. It's a perfect denial stage bait.
But their past track record does not concur. Bioware fucks up plenty and it's been their increasing trend in the last few years after joining EA.
Their confessions on how fucked up the process of creating the ending was and how it was left untill the last moments just keeps on solidifiying this.
You are fine with having no ending over a shit ending? All the more power to you.
 
This is incredibly off topic by the way. 
If you want to convince people of how factual indoctrination theory is, this isn't the thread for it.
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@DTKT said:

That ending bit is a small nugget for people with a high enough EMS.

tl:dr IT DOESNT MATTER AND IT'S IRRELEVANT.

Shepard story is over. Mass Effect is trilogy and the fact that Shepard is alive or dead is 100% useless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUF9BPOXfcE

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@Diachron: how is this professional journalism? like AT ALL? he discusses his opinions with some dude who hasnt even beaten the game, then gets completely off subject and talks about LOST and the sopranos...he didnt even research why people are actually upset over the ending.

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Nice piece, Patrick. Thought-provoking. Made me think of Bakhtin.

I did not play any MEs, but from described fan reaction it appears that in betraying the expectations of the audience, the storytellers failed to tell a story with a more profound meaning. This probably happened because the more profound meaning was not sufficiently foreshadowed in the narrative.

Anyway, its nice that GB is exploring the myth telling function of video games. A dialogue with another journalist is good, but where are the BioWare writers? Why dont we know their names? Are the corporations so afraid to show us their stars that they are willing to mute their own glory?

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That ending bit is a small nugget for people with a high enough EMS.

tl:dr IT DOESNT MATTER AND IT'S IRRELEVANT.

Shepard story is over. Mass Effect is trilogy and the fact that Shepard is alive or dead is 100% useless.

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@Tennmuerti said:

@Mike76x said:

@Tennmuerti said:

@Mike76x said:

@Hailinel said:

@Mike76x said:

@Hailinel said:

@BabelTower said:

This may or may not have already been mentioned, but to all the people who are completely baffled by the 180 degree turn of the story in the end... Well, there's this theory going around the net about Shepherd having a very sad times in his head. Something that gnaws at the edge of his mind and tries to distract him from the real problem. The theory is that the ending is Shepherd being indoctrinated. It's all in his head. A battle to be controlled or fighting it off. There's more to see on an interesting Youtube video. Just search for Mass Effect 3 Shepherd Indoctrination, or something. This does give some compelling arguments on what it all means, but nothing is certain of course.

There isn't a thread out of the hundred or so Mass Effect 3 ending threads that currently exist on this forum in which the Indoctrination theory isn't mentioned at least seven times. And no, it doesn't answer anything because it doesn't work.

As much as I would love to see the torrent of threads about ME3's ending stop, I would settle for at least one thread in which the Indoctrination theory isn't mentioned at all.

The Indoctrination theory works because they put it there on purpose, and the Illusive Man was supposed to be the final boss.

They left it there to intentionally create confusion over the ending, which is the same reason they cut the dialogue where the Catalyst actually explains things.

They had real endings planned and instead decided to make it intentionally vague.

They also had the Prothean mission cut from the game to be DLC. It was not created after the game was finished.

It's in the Mass Effect 3: Final Hours documentary

...Fuck it, I give up up. Arguing with Indoctrination theorists is like talking to a brick wall.

Indoctrination isn't a theory, it was written into the script along with an Illusive Man boss battle and a more informative discussion with the catalyst.

It was decided to mash everything together and remove dialogue so the real ending wouldn't be clear, because Casey Hudson wanted to deliberately troll ME fans.

Most of the above is speculation. You take facts in FH as a basis true, but then assign them intentions of writers on your own.Mass Effect 3: Final Hours documentory does not specify the writers intentions fully one way or another. In just the same way the Final Hours can be used to completely deconstruct the indoctrination theory. Indoctrination part was there, they took it out. Therefore all speculation on Shepard being indoctrinated is by default false, since Bioware decided they did not want to go him being indoctrinated route.See? They had no plans on post ending DLC. Hence the end of ME3 is what it is, if your theory is that it is indoctrination then the galaxy is not even saved and Reapers still be reaping, seeing as it's all a dream from the lazor to you waking yp. This makes ME3 ending even worse, considering now there is no real ending. Endings were cut due to the fact that they did not have their shit together towards the end and were limited by time. Anything infered further is speculation. "You don't need to know the answers to the mass effect universe. So we intentionally left those out"Hence the cut down "high level" conversation with starchild. This just reads like: "we dumbed down the endings to keep them accessible." If anything Final Hours shows just how much of a giant clusterfuck ME3 ending process was, with shit being undecided right up untill the end. Stuff was getting cut and changed everywhere. This isn't some single coherent vision, where they intentinally seeded speculation on indoctrination. This is hooks on Shep indoctrination being left over, when they decided to go in a different direction.

1. Casey Hudson has said himself he wanted the ending to be unclear:

"I didn’t want the game to be forgettable, and even right down to the sort of polarizing reaction that the ends have had with people–debating what the endings mean and what’s going to happen next, and what situation are the characters left in. That to me is part of what’s exciting about this story. There has always been a little bit of mystery there and a little bit of interpretation, and it’s a story that people can talk about after the fact."

2. They didn't take out the indoctrination, it's all there they just don't mention so it adds to the lack of clarity. If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated he wouldn't wake up back on Earth in the Destroy ending.

3. From Final Hours: "Mass Effect 3 is finished and while there is more work to do on downloadable content, the detachment process has begun."

From Ashes DLC? I was already in the game and removed. By the way: "We would never take stuff out of the core game and only have it in DLC." ~Casey Hudson

1. This has nothing to do with indoctrination.
You are continuing to assign writer intent to a diffrent fact. Casey is talking about the ending overall. This can be simply referring to lack of closure people felt.
Connecting such directly with indoctrination theory is like i said before speculation.

2. They said indoctrination sequence was there. They took it out.
Why of taking it out is stated that sequence was taken out because it was a bad game mechanic.
Not because they wanted less clarity.
AGAIN you keep doing the same shit. Of continuing actual facts with your own assumptions.
Fuck, come on!
i'll even post the quote here:

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).

on your other note:

If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated he wouldn't wake up back on Earth in the Destroy ending.

He can wake up on Earth just fine after the destroy ending. Citadel falls. Shepard is in the rubble.
Ot he is waking up on a part of the Citadel in the rubble, without it falling. Citadel has manmade structures build on top of the Citadel base itself.
There are plenty of explanations, just as if not more so plausible then the indoctrination theory.

3. And? Continue your point. What does this have to do with what I said? Why are you bringing up From Ashes?

@Mike76x

said:

Also, mass relays are supposed to have about the same explosive energy as a star going supernova, which means no more earth (and pretty much every other planet), so I just don't buy the three choices at the end being canon.

This is only if they explode conventionally. It is easily explained away by the energy dispersal simply destroying them in a more controlled reaction.

But when they explode they are still blasting the entire galaxy all at once with energy.

They aren't controlled explosions they are changed explosions.

How do you turn super destructive explodey energy into that "taste the rainbow" magic energy?

Also in one ending the Citadel survives. The Citadel is a mass relay with a mass relay inside it.

No Caption Provided
So they are changed explosions, ayep. It's still a possibility.
Energy and it's release comes in many forms. Not necessarily destructive or harmfull.

The mass relays explode so violently because they handle an immense amount of energy.
Said energy can be used to fuel the magic wave/beam. It is in fact logical to assume so, becuse it is a part necessary for the process to function in the first place, insane amounts of energy.
So the main force is spent in said dispersal. And relays explode. But no longer with violence enough to kill the star system they are in, due to most of energy being spent (focused in a different way). Simple.

Aside from being a mass relay the Citadel is an insanely complex and advanced structure, we in fact know very little of.
It's an originator of the process. All it's mass effect energy is easily consumed in order to triger the process.
It's a Deus Ex Machina, it could fart rainbow unicorns and you would not be able to say "hold up it can't so that"
Hence yet another stroke of bad in the tapestry of the ending.

It's a fucking dumb ending in more ways then one.
This is just one in a loooong line of plotholes with the ending.
I don't even know why the fuck im trying to explain said plot hole in the firstplace, this is why i should have learned to stay away from godamn ending discussions after several weeks. UGH.
But assuming the entire galaxy dies because of relay explosion is not certain. It's not fact.

@Thyson

said:

@Tennmuerti: Hey, I completely agree that the human reaper was complete bullshit, and it was because of that last boss that Mass Effect 2 was not my favorite game that year. The idea of breaking down humans to make a reaper makes sense because reapers are synthetic and organic in nature, but it was the explanation that the form of the reaper had to be similar to the ingredient (humans) that made me dislike the end boss. I meant to say that their writing talent in general is great compared to other developers, which includes their ability to create great characters even with somewhat simplistic stories, as you said. I still believe in Bioware, and I think living up to everyone's expectations was going to be hard from the beginning, especially with all the different paths you can take over the course of the three games.

I still think that the secret scene after you decide to kill the reapers, where a soldier, who is wearing the same looking armor Shepard is wearing as he bumbles his way to toward the ending, and also has a N7 dog tag around his neck (conveniently facing the camera), appears to be Shepard (can't see the face of the individual, but come on :P). There is no explanation for this scene, even if you think that the indoctrination theory is about people reading too much into something that isn't there. The scene exists.

We will know what Bioware's plans are when their Mass Effect 3 panel is held this week at PAX. I personally hope the indoctrination theory is correct, and not because I think it would be the best possible ending that Bioware could have written to put a cap on Shepard's story, but because there is at least the possibility of something that is better than the three awful choices.

Exactly Bioware is not infalible. They fuck up just like anybody. In fact this is what people said after DA2. Well this is one bad egg, lets give them the benefit of doubt. Now we get ME3 ending. They have always made quite straighforward stories. Such incredible subtlety as indoctrination is unprecedented in their portfolio.Suddenly they go out of their way to hit a super high mark, while risking pissing everyone off? While marketing it to simpler and simpler audiences.... come on. It is Shepard. Never argued otherwise. The armor in the scene even changes if you are male or female. It is not a definite supportive pillar for indoctrination theory. Plenty of other ways for it to happen in reality. People have already done so.

1. They took away the indoctrination explanation and mechanic of Shepard being fully under Reaper control. They left all the beginnings of the indoctrination intact, and chose not to explain it.

2. They took out all the indoctrination? So your Shepard didn't have nightmares with oily shadows, and see people that weren't there? Never woke up on a battlefield that suddenly looked like a past dream?

The last time Shepard landed on a planet in an intact armor he was found in chunks. He wouldn't survive orbital re-entry, he probably would've fried before hitting the ground. Anything entering Earth's atmosphere has to deal with 3,000 degrees F (1,650 degrees C) temperatures his armor was trashed an in no way able to survive that, then there's the actual impact, and according to you all the man-made structures that then fell on top of him.

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Edited By Diachron

I neglected to mention this in my initial comment to this post:

Thanks for posting this, Patrick. I don't always agree with your point of view on the bombcast, and I might be guilty of posting more critical comments on your stories than supportive ones, but one thing is clear: you bring an air of professional journalism to the site that I'm grateful for.

On the flip side of this, we have Brad who remains self indulgent on his "I can't access my saves" issue instead of fulfilling his professional duty to play one of the highest profile games of the year so he could-- oh, I don't know-- provide a professional point of view in print or on the bombcast.

But let me end this on a positive note: Great conversation, and thanks for posting it.

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@pyrodactyl: I got alot of respect for Jim Sterling in that video, i'm really not a fan of his but he knocked it out the park there with that video. Think the fact he was willing to write the fans off before even knowing what our problem was is kind of telling, but at least he took the time to find out eventually. There's a phrase in Scotland called 'succulent lamb journalism' that i think is applicable to alot of game journalists right now (although i think the GB guys aren't to be fair to them).

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EXTomar

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I must say the flames against Patrick are a bit unwarrented. I don't think Patrick was trying to defend the ending of Mass Effect 3 but explore the idea of player entitlement when a show or a game fosters it.

If there is a fault, it is that he likes Lost. ;)

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What is going to interest me, is if the gaming sites that have been crapping on people wanting a new ending and protesting it as "Destroying art" (among other nonsense) are going to say that in their review of Biowares ending "Clarifying" DLC. Will they give it low scores and protest it as destroying art? Or will they do what I think they will, rave about how much it improves the ending and give it high scores?

Because we're going to fast find out who the giant hypocrites in the gaming press are pretty soon.

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@Marokai: That quote was part of a larger post I deleted due to my concern that people would take it out of context. My original post was in response to unruly comments about this article and its author. I think Patrick's article is an example of how the Giant Bomb staff is very responsive to the concerns of the "community." In my original post the quote was juxtaposed against what I believed the intention of This article is. After much reading about the Mass Effect ending, I think other sites did not give reader opinions the appropriate amount of respect on the matter. This article did.

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Edited By Oy

Why isn't the TV show Dallas mentioned anywhere in this conversation? Because really...who shot JR? Answer: nobody, it never actually happened...

I wonder how the boy felt about his grampa telling him about the time he had an orgy with the naked blue alien lady. "Oh Gramps, you so sexy!!!"

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@MormonWarrior said:

@2HeadedNinja: Your English is fantastic, actually. Don't worry about that. And you make many very good points.

Thanks, I didn't think anyone would actually read that wall of text ;)

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@leftzero101 said:

Wish there wasnt dlc and bioware says "fuck it! yes it was indoctrination we just didnt want to say it was and now stfu"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ythY_GkEBck&feature=player_embedded#! and just watch....

Read actual quotes from Bioware.
Not fan assumption on what they want to hear.
Bioware may introduce clarification to existing content. Whether or not it will be indoctrination related is speculation.
(altho at this point they can claim it was indoctrination all along, even if it was not the original intent)
They also came out and said that what is there is there and meant to be taken at face value.
 
Again, to itterate, if indoctrination theory is a true then the entire ending is a farce, there is no ending the Reapers still be reaping, even more pointless, now it's a trilogy without an ending. Joy?
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deactivated-6050ef4074a17

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@pyrodactyl said:

did you know that the only guy who took the time to listen to what the fans were actually saying is goddamn Jim Sterling?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5548-Changing-A-Games-Ending-And-Destroying-Art

This hilarious and depressing at the same time...

Heh, I hadn't seen that, but he definitely deserves respect for actually reaching out and properly trying to understand fan grievances, and came to a very fair conclusion that most of us are actually being pretty reasonable despite popular misconception. I'm also really glad he specifically talked about 'artistic integrity' bullshit. Now, if only more "journalists" and critics would step out of their comfort zone and watch that Jimquisition and make a similarly honest and concerted effort to "get it."
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@Nethlem: you know the 2 most important reasons why people are still talking about the ending?

1-the ending is broken

2-The game was so good, core gamplay and, most importantly, storywise, that it's very disapointing to see an ending that's so shit

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pyrodactyl

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@Marokai said:

@Sooty said:

@Beatus said:

Here is a quote from someone who works at the biggest gaming publication in the U.S.: "No one that gets laid gives a shit about the color of Mass Effect 3's ending"

I really do hate people that insinuate being irritated over a video game means you need to get laid. Does having a girlfriend mean you automatically veto any right to complain?

That quote really sums up about how seriously we should take just about any games journalists, doesn't it? As if we needed any more proof that games "journalism" wasn't just a pathetic example of people being in the right place and right time, getting lucky making their hobby into their job, having their life be one grand party with everything they grew up idolizing. They don't give a fuck about consumers, or holding anyone's feet to the fire. They're having the ride of their lives and giving the middle finger to the rest of us.

I can't think of any industry that has worse coverage than this one. Critics and journalists in video games need to decide whether we should take them seriously, or not. You can't keep having it both ways, claiming you care about making your profession respectable and making a difference in the industry, and then cocking it up literally every single time you have a chance to prove that you believe what you say. I don't know why I even bother to continue reading Game Informer.

did you know that the only guy who took the time to listen to what the fans were actually saying is goddamn Jim Sterling?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5548-Changing-A-Games-Ending-And-Destroying-Art

This hilarious and depressing at the same time...

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@JAVK said:

Same old "game journalist" circlejerk.

This!

It's like journalists are angry that the customers/gamers don't all just agree with their opinion on ME3.

On industrygamers they even go as far as calling people "sociopaths" when they had not been happy with ME3.

Tbh this whole thing leaves an really really bad aftertaste...

First the game getting crappy user-reviews all over the place, EA steps in and forces metacritic to remove them because the consumer feedback didn't match all those stellar gaming press reviews. Heck most gaming sites even stepped in and argued for the case of ME3 being such an great game.

Most people already forgot about that and now the gaming news media just behaves like the ending had been the only problem with the game. The real sad part about all this? Even most journalists know that there is way more wrong with the game. But nobody really had the balls to give it an medicore review because it's the last game of such an big IP backed heavily by EA.

Just watching the quicklook and listening to Jeff's comments on ME3 says A LOT about what's wrong with the game and why people feel the whole thing had been an "meh..." experience.

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@CaptnGrumbles: patrick is a hack. i've lost all respect for him a long time ago. he'd rather post blogs and intellectually masturbate his own opinions with someone who mirrors his own than do any research. its a joke. ive been coming to the site alot less because since he's joined the quality of content has actually gone down. not mad about it, just disappointed. i thought of all the game sites who'd actually look into why gamers are upset about something it'd be giant bomb, but NOPE! giantbomb is apparently as bad as all the others now. good job patrick. good job.

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Edited By DTKT

The indoctrination theory is hilarious. Bioware made an ending as bad that fans created an alternate reality where the "bad" was just a screen for another reality.

Bravo.

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deactivated-6050ef4074a17

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@Sooty said:

@Beatus said:

Here is a quote from someone who works at the biggest gaming publication in the U.S.: "No one that gets laid gives a shit about the color of Mass Effect 3's ending"

I really do hate people that insinuate being irritated over a video game means you need to get laid. Does having a girlfriend mean you automatically veto any right to complain?

That quote really sums up about how seriously we should take just about any games journalists, doesn't it? As if we needed any more proof that games "journalism" wasn't just a pathetic example of people being in the right place and right time, getting lucky making their hobby into their job, having their life be one grand party with everything they grew up idolizing. They don't give a fuck about consumers, or holding anyone's feet to the fire. They're having the ride of their lives and giving the middle finger to the rest of us. 
 
I can't think of any industry that has worse coverage than this one. Critics and journalists in video games need to decide whether we should take them seriously, or not. You can't keep having it both ways, claiming you care about making your profession respectable and making a difference in the industry, and then cocking it up literally every single time you have a chance to prove that you believe what you say.
 
I don't know why I even bother to continue reading Game Informer.
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@Carac: This is why everyone needs to just wait and see what Bioware says at PAX. I believe the indoctrination theory is correct, and others do not. Based purely on the "wake up in rubble scene," I believe there is something more going on in the last sequence. Does the rubble scene take place on Earth? Well, then how did Shepard get there? If the citadel came careening down into Earth's atmosphere and crashed into the surface, then how in the hell did Shepard survive when he was in between both the citadel and the crucible. It doesn't add up.

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I don't understand the people who don't "get" why people should care about the ending this much. The fact is, with my limited time and budget for entertainment, I spent around 150 hours and at least $200 over the last few years on this series. By comparison, I only spent around 89 hours on Lost. You could watch the entire decade of X-Files TV episodes in 148 hours. These are hours of passive involvement. If you spend what had to be at least 100 hours actively involved in a story, making decisions about it every step of the way, and at the end you're able to say "yeah, whatever" about the ending...then wow, I wish I had your free time and money.

Then again, maybe I'd have more time to play video games I don't care about the endings of, if I never got laid.

Edit: So I say to you all, people who can easily get over the ending of this game have too much free time on their hands, and need to get laid. ;)

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@Tennmuerti said:

@Carac said:

@Tennmuerti said:

Just making an observation that you have a hard time accepting the Relay explosions are part of a dream/internal struggle but no problems with the Citadel dropping from orbit, crashing to Earth, and Shepard surviving reentry.

You're even embracing some fairly large leaps in logic that are based purely on your own speculation (the destruction of the relays is a "controlled demolition").

It seems your view is equally valid since it and the indoctrination theory are both based on tenuous logic and leaps of faith.

If you carefully read all my text. I have trouble accepting the indoctrination theory due to matters of business and Bioware track record.
As well as a look at how the ending was put together in From Ashes (which is to say like a damn giant mess of uncertainty and indecision)
And because if said theory is true it makes the ending of even less value. It cheapens it. There is no end. For me personally it would make matters worse, so what is the point of people clinging to it like a life ratf.
Not beacuase one scenario is more logical/magical/unbelievable then others.

Secondly I have no beef with indoctrination as a theory. As long as poeple don't tout it as fact.
I provided the two explanations mentioned for exactly that reason and for exactly that reason I said:

There are plenty of explanations, just as if not more so plausible then the indoctrination theory.

For me, I'd much rather think the ending was lopped off. That the original idea was to fade to black after choosing one of the three options for long enough to trick you into thinking that was it, then Shepard wakes up in the rubble of the Harbringer blast and you finish the game. I believe they ran out of time and that the intention of cutting off the ending was to spark the conversation we are seeing...and to buy them more time to finish the story. But they were caught off-guard with how negative the reaction would be. I believe the "content" they said they are working on had already been in the works and had been in the game in unpolished form before cutting. So they held it back to be DLC. Hopefully they planned for this DLC to be free, but you never know.

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Tennmuerti

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@Carac said:

@Tennmuerti said:

Just making an observation that you have a hard time accepting the Relay explosions are part of a dream/internal struggle but no problems with the Citadel dropping from orbit, crashing to Earth, and Shepard surviving reentry.

You're even embracing some fairly large leaps in logic that are based purely on your own speculation (the destruction of the relays is a "controlled demolition").

It seems your view is equally valid since it and the indoctrination theory are both based on tenuous logic and leaps of faith.

If you carefully read all my text. I have trouble accepting the indoctrination theory due to matters of business and Bioware track record.
As well as a look at how the ending was put together in Final Hours (which is to say like a damn giant mess of uncertainty and indecision)
And because if said theory is true it makes the ending of even less value. It cheapens it. There is no end. For me personally it would make matters worse, so what is the point of people clinging to it like a life ratf.
Not beacuase one scenario is more logical/magical/unbelievable then others.

Secondly I have no beef with indoctrination as a theory. As long as poeple don't tout it as fact.
I provided the two explanations mentioned for exactly that reason and for exactly that reason I said:

There are plenty of explanations, just as if not more so plausible then the indoctrination theory.

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@Beatus said:

Here is a quote from someone who works at the biggest gaming publication in the U.S.: "No one that gets laid gives a shit about the color of Mass Effect 3's ending"

I really do hate people that insinuate being irritated over a video game means you need to get laid. Does having a girlfriend mean you automatically veto any right to complain?

I better stop criticising, at least until my ass gets dumped. I'll go through all these shit sandwich games silently from now on.

Is that writer 16 years old or something? That hurr durr "you need to get laid" attitude is something I only tend to hear from immature pricks.

Edit: I'm not really bothered about the ending, I thought it was bad but don't see why people are so worked up. I don't place quite that much value in the fiction of video games. I still dislike that argument, though.

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@Tennmuerti said:

@Mike76x said:

@Tennmuerti said:

1. Casey Hudson has said himself he wanted the ending to be unclear:

"I didn’t want the game to be forgettable, and even right down to the sort of polarizing reaction that the ends have had with people–debating what the endings mean and what’s going to happen next, and what situation are the characters left in. That to me is part of what’s exciting about this story. There has always been a little bit of mystery there and a little bit of interpretation, and it’s a story that people can talk about after the fact."

2. They didn't take out the indoctrination, it's all there they just don't mention so it adds to the lack of clarity. If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated he wouldn't wake up back on Earth in the Destroy ending.

3. From Final Hours: "Mass Effect 3 is finished and while there is more work to do on downloadable content, the detachment process has begun."

From Ashes DLC? I was already in the game and removed. By the way: "We would never take stuff out of the core game and only have it in DLC." ~Casey Hudson

1. This has nothing to do with indoctrination.
You are continuing to assign writer intent to a diffrent fact. Casey is talking about the ending overall. This can be simply referring to lack of closure people felt.
Connecting such directly with indoctrination theory is like i said before speculation.

2. They said indoctrination sequence was there. They took it out.
Why of taking it out is stated that sequence was taken out because it was a bad game mechanic.
Not because they wanted less clarity.
AGAIN you keep doing the same shit. Of continuing actual facts with your own assumptions.
Fuck, come on!
i'll even post the quote here:

And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).

on your other note:

If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated he wouldn't wake up back on Earth in the Destroy ending.

He can wake up on Earth just fine after the destroy ending. Citadel falls. Shepard is in the rubble.
Ot he is waking up on a part of the Citadel in the rubble, without it falling. Citadel has manmade structures build on top of the Citadel base itself.
There are plenty of explanations, just as if not more so plausible then the indoctrination theory.

3. And? Continue your point. What does this have to do with what I said? Why are you bringing up From Ashes?

But when they explode they are still blasting the entire galaxy all at once with energy.

They aren't controlled explosions they are changed explosions.

How do you turn super destructive explodey energy into that "taste the rainbow" magic energy?

Also in one ending the Citadel survives. The Citadel is a mass relay with a mass relay inside it.

No Caption Provided
So they are changed explosions, so what. It's still a possibility.
Energy and it's release comes in many forms. Not necessarily destructive or harmfull.

The mass relays explode so violently because they handle an immense amount of energy.
Said energy can be used to fuel the magic wave/beam. It is in fact logical to assume so, becuse it is a part necessary for the process to function in the first place, insane amounts of energy.
So the main force is spent in said dispersal. And relays explode. But no longer with violence enough to kill the star system they are in. Simple.

It's a fucking dumb ending in more ways then one.
This is just one in a loooong line of plotholes with the ending.
But assuming as truth that entire galaxy dies because of relay explosion is wearing blinders. It's not certain. It's not fact.

@Thyson

said:

@Tennmuerti: Hey, I completely agree that the human reaper was complete bullshit, and it was because of that last boss that Mass Effect 2 was not my favorite game that year. The idea of breaking down humans to make a reaper makes sense because reapers are synthetic and organic in nature, but it was the explanation that the form of the reaper had to be similar to the ingredient (humans) that made me dislike the end boss. I meant to say that their writing talent in general is great compared to other developers, which includes their ability to create great characters even with somewhat simplistic stories, as you said. I still believe in Bioware, and I think living up to everyone's expectations was going to be hard from the beginning, especially with all the different paths you can take over the course of the three games.

I still think that the secret scene after you decide to kill the reapers, where a soldier, who is wearing the same looking armor Shepard is wearing as he bumbles his way to toward the ending, and also has a N7 dog tag around his neck (conveniently facing the camera), appears to be Shepard (can't see the face of the individual, but come on :P). There is no explanation for this scene, even if you think that the indoctrination theory is about people reading too much into something that isn't there. The scene exists.

We will know what Bioware's plans are when their Mass Effect 3 panel is held this week at PAX. I personally hope the indoctrination theory is correct, and not because I think it would be the best possible ending that Bioware could have written to put a cap on Shepard's story, but because there is at least the possibility of something that is better than the three awful choices.

Exactly Bioware is not infalible. They fuck up just like anybody. In fact this is what people said after DA2. Well this is one bad egg, lets give them the benefit of doubt. Now we get ME3 ending. They have always made quite straighforward stories. Such incredible subtlety as indoctrination is unprecedented in their portfolio.Suddenly they go out of their way to hit a super high mark, while risking pissing everyone off? While marketing it to simpler and simpler audiences.... come on. It is Shepard. Never argued otherwise. The armor in the scene even changes if you are male or female. It is not a definite supportive pillar for indoctrination theory. Plenty of other ways for it to happen in reality. People have already done so.

Just making an observation that you have a hard time accepting the Relay explosions are part of a dream/internal struggle but no problems with the Citadel dropping from orbit, crashing to Earth, and Shepard surviving reentry.

You're even embracing some fairly large leaps in logic that are based purely on your own speculation (the destruction of the relays is a "controlled demolition").

It seems your view is equally valid since it and the indoctrination theory are both based on tenuous logic and leaps of faith.

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@Beatus:  
Very well said, I agree that Patrick is getting far too much hate in these comments. It makes me think that it's still too early to be having the conversation that the article brings up because people seem to be still acting too reactionary and emotionally,