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The Slippery Slope of Video Game Sales

Passage and The Castle Doctrine designer Jason Rohrer believes our newfound culture of video game sales is hurting players and developers at the same time.

(UPDATE: You can now listen to our whole interview on the Interview Dumptruck.)

Can you remember the last time there wasn't a video game sale going on? This only happened recently, but the culture of perpetual sales caught fire quickly, and it's only getting bigger. The upside of sales are clear: cheaper games. But Passage, Inside a Star-filled Sky, and and Diamond Trust of London developer Jason Rohrer has a new game, and isn't so sure sales always benefit for developers and players.

Rohrer has been independently making games for years. In 2013, he had a Kickstarter to produce a set of DS cartridges.
Rohrer has been independently making games for years. In 2013, he had a Kickstarter to produce a set of DS cartridges.

Rohrer recently published an essay on the website called "Why Rampant Sales are Bad for Players" for his next release, The Castle Doctrine. When the game is released later this month, the current price, $8, will have a temporary launch price of $12. After a week, however, the price will become $16--forever. There will be no sales for The Castle Doctrine. Period. Basically, Rohrer wants to reward early adopters, not punish them with having to pay more money.

The Castle Doctrine has already seen its fair share of controversies over its development, ranging from its very premise (a man, not a woman, protecting their family) to Rohrer's reaction to his life experiences that have informed the game's development (being attacked by dogs).

Rohrer's stance on the game's relationship with sales is the latest development, albeit one with somewhat less moral messiness alongside it. Nonetheless, broaching the topic resulted in the most web traffic Rohrer has seen on his website since the game was announced last year.

Clearly, Rohrer has touched a sensitive subject for all parties involved.

"There’s a rush among game developers," he told me. "All of my friends that I know that are multimillionaires, they made more than half of their money in these Steam sales. Over the past couple of years, I’ve just been hearing all these stories from people. 'Oh, yeah, the sales are where you’re going to make your money, man! I did a midweek madness, and that doubled my money right there!” [laughs] 'I was deal of the day a few weeks later--and again! I doubled!' And they just act like this is the way it is and this is amazing. If you stop and ask one of them, 'you realize that most of those people who bought it, when it was midweek madness or whatever, don’t actually play it?' And they just shrug. 'Who cares, as long as I get their money, right?'"

To be clear, Rohrer doesn't really begrudge his friends for cashing in on what seems to make sense. But he does wonder if there's unintended consequences to this movement, as is the case with any "rush." On the App Store, the rush resulted in a race to the bottom on price, as more games decided the best way to make money was to charge less, hoping to make up for the lack of initial investment with volume.

(If you'll remember, this is what Nintendo president Satoru Iwata famously criticized in his keynote at the Game Developers Conference in 2011. He felt it devalued the quality of games.)

And furthermore, it's not like Rohrer hasn't benefited from the very practice he's now questioning. His last game, Inside a Star-filled Sky, was the benefit of many Steam sales before Rohrer pulled the plug. Rohrer said he made a "substantial amount of money" from these Steam sales.

But he started to notice a pattern when Inside a Star-filled Sky wasn't on sale: no one bought it. Almost no one, anyway. Sales were flat in-between sales, and garnering a new level of interest on the next sale meant offering deeper and deeper discounts. As other developers offered bigger discounts, he felt compelled to do the same thing. In his essay, Rohrer offered this sales graph to illustrate the point:

No Caption Provided

There was a surprising counterpoint within Rohrer's own library of work, too. Another one of his games, Sleep Is Death, was simultaneously available on his website during the same period. During the times when Inside a Star-filled Sky wasn't on sale and Sleep Is Death was full price, Sleep Is Death was making more money. What Rohrer discovered was that our new culture of games sales, something he’d benefited from and supported himself, had conditioned people to avoid full price.

"A lot of people use the term 'trained.' [laughs]" he said. "[It's uncomfortable] having any of these kinds of discussions about marketing and 'should you price your game at $1 or $0.99? Or should it be $9.99 or $10?' All these psychological tricks that marketers have learned over the years. 'Have the price high, so you can discount it later!' All these kinds of things [are] because of psychology. I feel a little slimy dealing with it and thinking in these terms. I especially feel a little slimy about thinking about how we’ve 'trained' our customers. They’re just clapping their fins together and throwing money at us!"

"As a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multi-millionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that."

There's a reason Rohrer titled his essay "Why Rampant Sales are Bad for Players." The culture of sales seems to be eroding his ability to sell games over the longterm, and it impacts early adopters. Rohrer hypothesized the poor soul who purchased one of his games a few minutes before an unannounced sale kicks in. What does that person think? Do they feel okay having spent anywhere from 50-to-75% more than the next person?

This situation wasn't a hypothetical when it came to a Sleep Is Death customer, though. For a period, Sleep Is Death adopted a pay-what-you-want pricing model. The game had been $12, but pay-what-you-want means you pay the developer whatever you think the game is worth. Not long after the change, he received an email from a player purchased the game just prior to the pay-what-you-want change, and he was upset.

"This person’s argument was [that] 'I only have $12 in my bank account, and I just spent it on your game and I won’t be able to buy another game.'" he said. "Some of these people are kids. They get allowance or have a birthday present [where] they get $20 from their grandma or something. 'It’s a game we’re all playing with money' is not true for a lot of people. A lot of people really have to think very hard about what game they spend their money on."

Rohrer asked the player what he wanted to pay. The player's response? $3. So Rohrer refunded him $9.

It's not entirely about the money, either. It's also about how he design games. Rohrer said The Castle Doctrine is not a game that takes five minutes to "click." He suspects it will take players a week before the systems really make sense. That's quite a bit of time, but Rohrer doesn't have a way of making the big payoff in the opening moments--it's not that type of game. He needs players willing to invest.

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When Inside Star-filled Sky went on sale, Rohrer searched through the comments and reviews from players. Steam profiles list the time someone has spent playing a game, and Rohrer noticed a crucial detail with players who didn't like Inside a Star-filled Sky: they weren't spending much time with it.

"Every single person who’s giving it a negative review played it for less than an hour, which means they didn’t even get through the tutorial, the part where the cool stuff is explained," he said. "The people who paid full price for it, whatever the full price was at the time that they bought it, gave it a chance. Some of them played it for hundreds of hours. I really think that if you want to make a more subtle game, one that’s not necessarily going to beat you over the head with what’s cool about it right from the first screen. [If] you want to make a game that takes longer and lingers more and is more about the long term experience, then, yeah, pricing the game higher really will help you have almost all the players who come in be willing to get to that point."

Rohrer's suggestion that the larger investment we have in something, the more we're willing to give it a chance, doesn't sound too crazy, if a bit counterintuitive. Look at it a different way. When you were a kid, did your parents ever buy you a totally crappy game? I remember getting some awful licensed games as a kid, and while I would have preferred Chrono Trigger, I didn't have a choice, so I sucked it up and played through what was in front of me and tried to find enjoyment in that. If I spent $20 on a game, I want to know what it's about. If I spend $2 on a game, I might be inclined to turn it off after my initial reaction.

As he researched his essay, Rohrer came across the idea of a "shame list." Players were posting all of the games picked up in a Steam sale, games they knew they would never have time to play. But when a potentially interesting game is available for $2, why not buy it? Isn't it a win-win? The developer is being rewarded with money and the player suddenly has cheap access to a game.

The days and weeks leading up to a season Steam sale often pushes players into a fever pitch of anticipation.
The days and weeks leading up to a season Steam sale often pushes players into a fever pitch of anticipation.

"When a player comes along and does a shame list," he said, "where they have 300 games in the library, of which they’ve only played 30--that’s bad for players! They wasted their money. And people say 'they don’t need to be babysat, they’re adults or people who can make their own choices, we don’t need to hold their hands as developers and make sure they don’t make bad choice.' But at the same time, me, as a developer, being turned from a millionaire into a multimillionaire, by effectively tricking a bunch of people into wasting money on something they’ll never use? I, personally, don’t feel good about that. I don’t think that’s good for those people. I don’t necessarily think it’s McDonalds’ job to make sure we all eat healthy, but at the same time, I wouldn’t want to be running a fast food restaurant myself."

Right now, the plan is for The Castle Doctrine to never have a sale. Rohrer believes it make sense right now, but it's hard to anticipate the future, and nothing applies to every developer's situation. But it's started an interesting conversation.

When asked, he didn't have a good answer as to why The Castle Doctrine will be priced at $16. He just sort of settled on it. It's certainly more expensive than games his friends have made, though.

"It was kind of scary saying 'The Castle Doctrine will be $16 dollars,'" he said. " [...] Should it only be $6 and then go up to $12? Should it be $5 and go up to $10? You don’t know what effect this is going to have. It’s scary to make your price higher than everybody else. The Castle Doctrine will be more than Fez. [laughs] The Castle Doctrine will be more than Braid ever was. The Castle Doctrine will be more than Super Meat Boy. Yeah, I don’t know. It seems scary, but on the other hand, it very well may be the right thing to do, and maybe even got it set too low."

Patrick Klepek on Google+

455 Comments

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Brenderous

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@somejerk said:

Still cannot believe the amount of people who say and believe in

" I'll wait until it appears on PS+/SteamSale/HumbleBundle "

Still cannot believe those people are intelligent enough to post on the internet either.

Yeah, screw those people trying to save money and taking advantage of capitalism! What?

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tineaus

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Edited By tineaus

About the whole "shame list" theory. I've got 130 games listed in my steam list. I just went over it and didn't find a single thing I wasn't interested in playing to the end.

I have my list organized into a queue. I have every intention of eventually playing all of these.

The real advice here is don't buy a game just because it's cheap. Buy it because you're interested in it (quick looks and similar content are guilty of exposing me to a lot of games that I would have otherwise never looked into and I thank them for that.). I bought several of these while they were on sale but that doesn't mean I ever picked up something I didn't want just because there was a low number on it.

Which is why I just can't agree with this guys thinking at all. The one thing I think does have some ground is the idea that the more you invest into something the more time you're likely to spend with it I've gotten trapped into certain sinkholes by that logic.

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rollingzeppelin

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Looking at it economically I disagree with his opinion. If more people can play the game at a lower price then that should be the price. The goal of the seller is to maximize the area under the price vs no. of sales curve.

But on the other hand, I see his point of paying less for a game devalues it. I know that some games I have bought on sale I feel very little commitment to playing them, there is much less of a draw to even try them, and once I'm in the game it's harder to become immersed. I bought Alan Wake for $7.50, I know that it is a good game but it's not the type that I would normally get into, since it was so cheap I haven't felt drawn to play it and still haven't touched it. I know for a fact that if I had paid full price for it I would have definitely played it to completion very soon after purchasing. Then again, I'm not sure if I would have paid for it at all if it was still full price.

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AlexanderSheen

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Edited By AlexanderSheen

"(a man, not a woman, protecting their family)" Patrick pls, I thought there were people legitimately concerned that the games themes are so dark (Or just dealing with the idea of protecting family and trying to kill someone else), not that Jason Roher is a man and makes a game about one.

Oh you silly, robbing your neighbors and sometimes killing them is not the real problematic theme here.

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BooDoug187

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I find his arguement of "People didnt buy my months old game at full price" stupid.

There is a very small hand full of games that still sell at full price months/years after release. Even triple A games hit a sales wall and then fade away. You can't sit there and act like you are some kind of victim of some kind of "industry killing thing" when near the begining you even say you made tons of money from the cheap sales.

There are times I pay full price for a game, example Kentucky Route 0. After seeing the quick look on the site I went and got it. Saddly I havent had the time to play, not because im spending tons of money buying games on steam sales, its because of something called "having a life." Im married and have a job. Sorry I cant take a week off work to spend hours playing Jason Rohrer's game just to make him feel better.

Some one posted earilier about how Rohrer said that people complained about his game when they only played it for 2 hours "not passing the tutoral" if your game has a turotal thats longer than an hour or so that is more of the desginer's fault, not someone who took a chance and bought your game for 2 bucks.

And to tell the truth, I tried couple of his games, and really I don't like them.

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Jason Rohrer: pretentious indie game developer, part-time economist.

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Th3irdEye

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I think this guy is also underestimating the insane amount of advertising power that you get from being put on the front page of Steam. There are so many games I have bought and enjoyed, that I would never have known existed, simply because they ended up being pulled to the front page of Steam by a sale.

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@hxcaleb said:

@pudge said:

I buy a lot of games on sale (close to 1,400 and counting on my Steam profile alone), and for this guy to assume that more gamers getting access to more games is somehow a bad thing is pretentious and snooty even for an indie developer. I like having a huge library of titles to choose from, and I don't care if I never get to some of them, that's not the point. If a game comes in a bundle, or if I bought it for trading cards, or because its licensing deal was going to take it off of Steam, I still had a reason to buy it. I'm not some mindless cretin who just buys games to buy them, and I certainly won't be wasting any time with this guy's games in the future.

and I thought I had a problem with only 430 games on my steam profile! You must buy every game available on the steam sales!

If I'm reasonable interested in the title, and it's $10 or below, then yeah, I pick it up. Somehow, I still don't own Dark Souls though :p

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rollingzeppelin

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Edited By rollingzeppelin

@mafuchi said:

@officer_falcon: There are any number of places he could pull data from and try to make an analogous claim (e.g. The japanese market has lots of data). If his point it to say "sales hurt overall profitability", he could pull from different sectors to make that point. Theses require data, if you make a claim you gotta back it up.

I don't think that is what he is arguing at all. He even states many times in the article that sales greatly boost the profits of his and his peers games. His argument against sales are for his games qualitative value to his customers. He wants people to value his games, to appreciate his games and enjoy them to their fullest extent, even if it costs him at the end, which I think he has a good point.

It's a strange situation, you can look at it purely quantitatively and say that, absolutely, sales are good for games. But games are more than just products, they're entertainment that have an emotional value as well. If you look at it on that level, I agree with him that a lower price can diminish the emotional attachment and thus the value a game has.

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This is my first comment on Giantbomb so go easy on me.

It seems like a lot of folks gloss over one of the points Rohrer is making. He and fellow developers benefit from steam sales monetarily, which can help the developer make more games and keep them in business. However, it seems that Rohrer not only would like money (obviously) but equally values people playing his game. I believe what he wants are people to both buy his games and play his games. As he looked at the reviews of his games from players he sees that many people aren't putting time in his games before the gamer decides to quit.

A game bought cheaply can lead a player to say to themself; "I bought this game I never would have bought anyway so the developer should be happy that they get this found money from me".

What Rohrer wants is for the player to both buy his game and play his game a lot. What he is seeing is a trend that games bought cheaply might be causing people to stop playing or never play his game.

Not sure how much that is true, but I think it is a definitely an interesting point to make.

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deactivated-64ba519b6e291

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Maybe if we eliminate sales and force people to pay $60 for games that are decades old Gamestop can finally start paying more for those trade-ins. In this crazy future where video games never lose value I want at least $45 cash for trading in my copy of Super Mario Bros & Duckhunt on the NES! Come to think of it, that's two games in one... now I want $90! Welcome to the future!

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Edited By afabs515

I bought Dark Souls for $5 in a Steam sale. It's one of my favorite games ever and I'm gonna buy Dark Souls 2 on day 1. Never would have tried that game otherwise. Steam sales are bad... huh...

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TowerSixteen

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This is my first comment on Giantbomb so go easy on me.

It seems like a lot of folks gloss over one of the points Rohrer is making. He and fellow developers benefit from steam sales monetarily, which can help the developer make more games and keep them in business. However, it seems that Rohrer not only would like money (obviously) but equally values people playing his game. I believe what he wants are people to both buy his games and play his games. As he looked at the reviews of his games from players he sees that many people aren't putting time in his games before the gamer decides to quit.

A game bought cheaply can lead a player to say to themself; "I bought this game I never would have bought anyway so the developer should be happy that they get this found money from me".

What Rohrer wants is for the player to both buy his game and play his game a lot. What he is seeing is a trend that games bought cheaply might be causing people to stop playing or never play his game.

Not sure how much that is true, but I think it is a definitely an interesting point to make.

I think where that perspective annoys me is that it assumes that, if someone buys his game and doesn't play it immediately or even within the year, something bad has happened. I do that occasionally. I buy things I normally wouldn't buy on sale, and then don't play them for awhile. But it's not because I'm tricked, and I don't need him to nanny my spending habits. I buy those games because, being outside my usual interest zones, it's not a good investment at full price. Because, again, outside usual interest zones, it might take me awhile to be in the proper mood to try it. When I try it, I may quickly decide I don't like it - it happens. But if it was like 3 bucks, who cares? And whether I liked it or not, either way I've broadened my horizons.

He doesn't like that people buy his game and than don't play it, or don't play it much, but I don't think people need to be saved from their own buying habits, in this case. It really isn't super manipulative, and it's really their own business. He's offering a product, and shouldn't dictate how people use it (or don't).

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w1n5t0n

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Looking at it economically I disagree with his opinion. If more people can play the game at a lower price then that should be the price. The goal of the seller is to maximize the area under the price vs no. of sales curve.

But on the other hand, I see his point of paying less for a game devalues it. I know that some games I have bought on sale I feel very little commitment to playing them, there is much less of a draw to even try them, and once I'm in the game it's harder to become immersed. I bought Alan Wake for $7.50, I know that it is a good game but it's not the type that I would normally get into, since it was so cheap I haven't felt drawn to play it and still haven't touched it. I know for a fact that if I had paid full price for it I would have definitely played it to completion very soon after purchasing. Then again, I'm not sure if I would have paid for it at all if it was still full price.

I have to disagree, I think you have the cause and effect backwards. People don't want to play a game more because it was more expensive. They are willing to pay more if they really want to play it. I think feeling compelled to play a game more because it was expensive doesn't create any artistic value. Would Brad have a worse experience with Brothers if he bought it when it was on sale for $5, I doubt it.

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CatsAkimbo

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Physical games start going down in price pretty quickly if they're not halo/call of duty, and I knew a lot of people who always waited until it was cheaper to buy physical games -- I don't see how this is much different. People are basically waiting to buy until it's worth what they think it's worth. Just because it's digital doesn't mean it should stay the same price forever.

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Sin4profit

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Man, independent development of any product needs to be less neurotic about making money. The whole "money shame" thing has plagued the "indie scene" for far too long.

Anyway, i fail to understand his perspective of "marketing tricks" as he fails to see his solution of, "buy now for 50% off because it will NEVER BE THIS CHEAP AGAIN!" as it's own form of marketing trick.

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By using Rohrer's own logic, neither marketing plan is more unhealthy than the other one. If the developer can make a living with or without sales, because they clearly if you look at his own data, than neither is superior to the other. If you never go on sale you'll have users like me who are disgruntled that there is never a sale. If you do go on sale, you'll have users that are disgruntled like the kid who wrote to Rohrer. There will always be disgruntled users over your business model, but if the model works, you're more than welcome to use it.

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Edited By Hailinel

@tmthomsen: That's the point. He sees Humble/Steam sales as hurting the early adopters that buy at full price.

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Edited By BRG9000

@nycnewyork: He doesn't ignore price elasticity, it's actually the crux of his argument. But his conclusion is that those additional people who will buy the game at the lower price point are less likely to enjoy the game, evangelize the game, or even play it, which in a way is bad for everyone. Despite myself being the exact person he's talking about - I have over 200 unplayed games on steam and a wishlist of 50 games waiting on sales - I see his point.

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@afabs515 said:

I bought Dark Souls for $5 in a Steam sale. It's one of my favorite games ever and I'm gonna buy Dark Souls 2 on day 1. Never would have tried that game otherwise. Steam sales are bad... huh...

cases exactly like your's are why sales are good for players

everything has its risk/reward,

stuff like R.I.P.D could have gone on sale, and people would buy it, but i dont think anyone will buy a R.I.P.D 2

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Edited By jayc4life

I can't believe I was dumb enough to buy Sleep Is Death at full price when it came out. Hell, I even pre-ordered it because it seemed like a great idea at the time (rapid-improv storytelling with custom sprites and stuff). I played it for about an hour with a friend - it came as a 2-pack because of the nature of the game - and neither of us played it ever again, be it because we lacked creativity or originality, or because it was a great idea that was poorly executed. It's been about 4 years, I'm not confident on commenting on it in its current state, whatever that may be. Guess I'm part of his problem.

Say what I will about those games I got on Steam sales I may never play, but at least I will eventually get my enjoyment out of them. How many people are still playing Sleep is Death now? Guarantee if you go online and try to find a lobby, you'll find your own reflection faster.

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wardcleaver

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@knopper7 said:

Jason Rohrer: pretentious indie game developer, part-time economist.

As someone who studied econ, I find it offensive to put "Jason Rohrer" and "economist", even "part-time", in the same sentence.

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Edited By afabs515

@mrfluke said:

@afabs515 said:

I bought Dark Souls for $5 in a Steam sale. It's one of my favorite games ever and I'm gonna buy Dark Souls 2 on day 1. Never would have tried that game otherwise. Steam sales are bad... huh...

cases exactly like your's are why sales are good for players

everything has its risk/reward,

stuff like R.I.P.D could have gone on sale, and people would buy it, but i dont think anyone will buy a R.I.P.D 2

Exactly. But even on that initial purchase of RIPD, the sale isn't to blame; the consumer is. The games industry in particular has so many resources for game reviews/coverage, be it official websites or YouTube/Twitch users that it is super easy to educate oneself about a given game before he/she buys it. You could sell any game on steam for $0.99, but if it has like a 10 on Metacritic (assuming someone only checks the Metascore for games) as opposed to a $20 game with a 90, I would think that person would either buy the $20 game or simply not make a purchase at all. Sales don't lead to drops in game quality; only consumers' dollar votes can do that. If people buy bad games without thinking about it, which I don't believe most do, that's what will hurt the qualities of future games, if anything.

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EXTomar

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I don't see the difference between:

- Not playing a game because one doesn't have it (not enough money, access to hardware, whatever)

- Not playing a game because they don't want too (they own it, installed, but never launched)

Suggesting there is an issue with sales because it promotes bad behavior supposes that they would have played it under another circumstance and I don't see evidence of that anywhere. Basically if one is never going to play a game, what does matter if they own or not?

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PBalfredo

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Considering that he makes games that take a while to "click" with the player, this seems to be the worst strategy for pricing his games. In a long-burn game, it's going to take a while for the game to really grab the early adopters, then longer still for word of mouth from them to reach new players. But then anyone curious about trying the title is then looking at a full price tag with no possibility of future sales. I bet that will scare off a large amount of those who otherwise would be curious enough from word of mouth to try the game.

Look at the Souls series, the poster child for requiring patience from players in order for them to fully appreciate the game. When Demon's Soul first released in NA, no one knew about the game. Slowly but surely word of mouth grew and grew. Then Dark Souls became a regular on Steam sales and the audience grew and grew further. Now there are tons of people foaming at the mouth for Dark Souls 2. If Dark Souls released for half price then said it was going to be full price forever after, there would have been nowhere near the same audience growth. Sure maybe some just let it sit in their Steam library, but there are others who really get into their new purchase. Just look at how the Souls games have gotten their claws into the GB crew, long after release.

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sciutti

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@lategordon: What I don't like about this piece is that he takes some really superficial data to imply a lot of conclusions about the state of gaming and gamers. People who play PC games are a really heterogeneous bunch of people, and the motivations behind their behaviour cannot be extrapolated simply from the sales and playing time graphs. If it were that simple, marketing, game design and economy would be pure sciences.
You can only make hypothesis about the single game, and only in relation to the single history of its pulòic exposure and collateral events.
From my chair and my little knowledge I can make some hypothesis that totally oppose his ones (some were already made in this thread).

First of all, maybe the peaks in revenue during Steam sales were due to the "wating for a sale" mindset but maybe it was caused by a misplaced initial price or a surge in exposure given by the sale itself, or it could be all of the above (this is where i stand). The same could be said about the play times, maybe some didn't give the game enough credit due to the price, but it also may be caused by people simply not liking the game, for design reasons or simply because there were people who gave it a shot to try something different only because of the sale and that would have never played it otherwise.

This was my first post too, and sorry for my bad English, it's not my native language

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The thing that astounds me is the type of person, mentioned in his piece, that would email a developer complaining about missing a sale on a game and then wanting a refund of the amount. That just boggles my mind. It seems so selfish to me to complain after the fact. You missed a sale? That's life. A grocery store won't give you that awesome deal on hamburger if you bought it at 3 dollars a pound and it was 1.99 just a week after. You missed out. I guess I don't see much difference between a pair of shoes at an outlet store, a food item or games.

When I buy a game, I know what I am willing to pay for it pretty much right away. If I spend 10 dollars on a game, only to see it go on sale for 5 dollars in the next week, I shrug my shoulders and move on. I understand that money is tight for some people, but if you only have 12 dollars to your name, then spend it on something other than a game or save it. If I had barely anything in my bank account, I would stop spending money and wait until I had the income to where a few dollars difference in a product didn't kill me financially. I can spend money on games now because I have that disposable income. I'm not choosing between rent, heating oil and food. I love games, but many other things win out when strapped for cash.

As a fan of games, I tend to buy what I like for the regular price. I only tend to wait for things I am unsure about. Never putting those types of games on sale would mean that I would most likely never purchase them. Then the publisher would get nothing from me, instead of something. Also, games that go on sale which I buy to try out have also made me a fan of the game creators themselves. Then I am more likely to buy their next game for full price. Again, if I never get a taste of the game through some sort of sale, I would never try their next game either.

An example I use is something like Amnesia: The Dark Descent. I would never have bought that game full price when it first came out. Then I started hearing this incredible word of mouth and I wanted to try it. I ended up buying it during a Steam sale for half price, I believe. Love the game. Love it. Ended up buying the Penumbra games on Steam, and Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs. It was the same thing with BioShock. I bought the first one discounted, then I ended up buying the second game for full price, the combo pack for full price, and the Collector's Edition of Infinite for full price. If I try a game and love it I will give my money above and beyond to that publisher in the future. I think that is an important thing to consider too when talking about sales.

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@brg9000 said:

...his conclusion is that those additional people who will buy the game at the lower price point are less likely to enjoy the game, evangelize the game, or even play it, which in a way is bad for everyone.

Right, but that concept is just pure speculation on his part based on nothing and actually contradicted by a few people's personal experiences in this thread. Consider the recent explosion of Dark Souls. It was a beloved niche game that was huge for a small number of people and kind of ridiculed by the masses. Then came the Steam holiday sale where it was like $7.50, so the skeptics gave it a go and now it's become a wide-spread hit and I'm sure tons of it's fans (who bought it at a discount) are going to pay full price the day Dark Souls 2 comes out.

That's good for everyone, and it may not have happened without a lowered price.

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Aetheldod

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Well ... I payed for terraria 2.49 , the cheapest game I have bought , acording to him I would plain ignore it and not give it a chance. My steam says I played it for 71 hours already

Is the first time I hev bought that type of games , so it was unkown territory for me , so if I didnt like it I wouldnt heve lost a lot of money (even more so now that I cant have 15-60 bucks each month for videogames expenditutre). If sales stop Im gonna be pretty mad at this man >:(

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Dagbiker

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I agree with him. I mean, two years ago I could have bought anything on steam's front page and knowen it was at least playable. Today I cant even get that garentee. not even from full, not Early Access games. This microtransaction game crap is just turning gaming into crap.

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Edited By Video_Game_King

Some one posted earilier about how Rohrer said that people complained about his game when they only played it for 2 hours "not passing the tutoral" if your game has a turotal thats longer than an hour or so that is more of the desginer's fault, not someone who took a chance and bought your game for 2 bucks.

Who said that long tutorials were a bad thing? Resonance of Fate frontloads the hell out of its tutorials, and it systems are harder to understand because of it. If you have complex systems to deal with, then it makes sense to show the player bits and pieces of the game over a long period of time rather than getting it all out of the way as fast as possible.

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@somejerk said:

Still cannot believe the amount of people who say and believe in

" I'll wait until it appears on PS+/SteamSale/HumbleBundle "

Still cannot believe those people are intelligent enough to post on the internet either.

Hard to believe you figured this whole internet thing out yourself. Bunch of idiots trying to save money, I tell ya...

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personz

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@somejerk: There is also value in being able to afford rent and food by waiting for a game is on sale so you can actually afford it. I used to have allot of disposable income, and then I moved out of my parents house and quickly realized that being frugal helps you pay the bills.

Do I think a game like Bioshock Infinite is worth 50 bucks? Yes I do but I can sure as hell tell you that I cant afford to spend 50 bucks every time a big game is released. I cant even afford to to purchase 1 indie game a week without hurting my food budget, so I set aside a small amount of money every week and wait for a sale to get the things I want because I dont need video games to live but I do need food, shelter and the ability to pay off my student loans lets I be in debt forever.

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Niceanims

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I don't share his sentiments about a jillion people buying games during a sale and never playing. I'd prefer a small following of dedicated people. It'd allow me to make less compromises for the sake of appealing to a larger audience... or perhaps making less compromises leads to a smaller audience... whatever. Now, if I could get big profits while appealing to a small audience, that's better for the both of us.

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davidwitten22

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@boodoug187 said:

Some one posted earilier about how Rohrer said that people complained about his game when they only played it for 2 hours "not passing the tutoral" if your game has a turotal thats longer than an hour or so that is more of the desginer's fault, not someone who took a chance and bought your game for 2 bucks.

Who said that long tutorials were a bad thing? Resonance of Fate frontloads the hell out of its tutorials, and it systems are harder to understand because of it. If you have complex systems to deal with, then it makes sense to show the player bits and pieces of the game over a long period of time rather than getting it all out of the way as fast as possible.

Long tutorials result in a large barrier to entry, as well as typically being tedious and dull. Some games do tutorials really well, but many don't. The reason long tutorials are typically (not always of course) bad is that many people don't have a lot of time to play games and having to trudge through an overly long tutorial will cause them to give up and move on to one of the millions of other games that may get to the point more quickly and allow them to get to the heart of the game more quickly.

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veektarius

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Edited By veektarius

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press. Is any indy developer who wants to raise a petty grievance entitled to an article?

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bhhawks78

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Edited By bhhawks78

Such a greedy bullshit argument.

Never paying a cent for anything he works on.

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alwaysbebombing

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Edited By alwaysbebombing

I do not feel his argument is strong enough to warrant press.

You're so right.

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Rirse

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Does he not know one of the reasons why the Steam sales are good is the fact people see the game on the frontpage and remember that game EXIST on the store. Look at Kingdom of Amular or ClaDun X2 on Steam, both games have been on sale maybe TWICE in the entire two or so years they been on the store. You almost never see anyone buying them because they been full price for years. Making your game never have sales might be a bold statement, especially if it popular, but if it not then it just going to be forgotten.

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I can't agree with this. There are a lot of games I'm interested in. But just because I'm interested doesn't mean I'm gonna pay 50, or 20 or 15 bucks. Depends how much I'm acutally interested.

I never really cared for The Witcher I, so naturally I didn't buy it. At some point I bought it during a steam sale cause I wanted to try a new RPG. Now the game is one of my favourite games of this generation and I bought Witcher 2 at launch (and Witcher 1 again as a Retail product).

So, no, I don't agree with him. At all

Steam profiles list the time someone has spent playing a game, and Rohrer noticed a crucial detail with players who didn't like Inside a Star-filled Sky: they weren't spending much time with it.

Well....of course they aren't. Why would they if they don't enjoy it? This aren't the NES times anymore when you were stuck with a game you bought cause you couldn't afford a different one.

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Edited By TehPickle

What an absolutely fascinating article. Nice work, Patrick.

I could probably rant on all day on this subject but I'll try to be brief.

I think Mr Rohrer raises a lot of very valid arguments, and I have a lot of respect for the decisions he's making, but there seems to be what I can only describe as a kind of megalomaniacal thought process going on with his attitudes towards games buying / playing, and I just don't believe that works in the modern gaming world.

There are simply too many games to get absolutely 100% out of everything we might want to play. It makes gaming a far more short-lived and fickle thing than it ever has been, for me anyway. Price doesn't enter into it at this point. If it did, there'd just be too many expensive games instead.

It reads to me as though he's trying to say that we should stop trying to play everything, in order for us to have the time to give games the credit they deserve, to which I would say 'fuck that, what are these other 5 new games that got released this week?'

If a game grabs me, it grabs me regardless of price.

I'm in total agreement that a player could potentially give a game less of chance, the less he / she has spent on it (allthough I could provide strong anecdotal evidence for both sides of that argument), but some chance at a player picking up your game is always better than no chance at all, if they're on the fence and feel they missed their chance at getting the game a price they were more prepared to pay.

It seems this developer doesn't want on-the-fence customers, and it takes some serious balls to price your game like this and effectively say 'only serious players need apply' - I dont like that attitude, personally.

<deep breath> I need to stop...

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@lategordon said:

This is my first comment on Giantbomb so go easy on me.

It seems like a lot of folks gloss over one of the points Rohrer is making. He and fellow developers benefit from steam sales monetarily, which can help the developer make more games and keep them in business. However, it seems that Rohrer not only would like money (obviously) but equally values people playing his game. I believe what he wants are people to both buy his games and play his games. As he looked at the reviews of his games from players he sees that many people aren't putting time in his games before the gamer decides to quit.

A game bought cheaply can lead a player to say to themself; "I bought this game I never would have bought anyway so the developer should be happy that they get this found money from me".

What Rohrer wants is for the player to both buy his game and play his game a lot. What he is seeing is a trend that games bought cheaply might be causing people to stop playing or never play his game.

Not sure how much that is true, but I think it is a definitely an interesting point to make.

I think where that perspective annoys me is that it assumes that, if someone buys his game and doesn't play it immediately or even within the year, something bad has happened. I do that occasionally. I buy things I normally wouldn't buy on sale, and then don't play them for awhile. But it's not because I'm tricked, and I don't need him to nanny my spending habits. I buy those games because, being outside my usual interest zones, it's not a good investment at full price. Because, again, outside usual interest zones, it might take me awhile to be in the proper mood to try it. When I try it, I may quickly decide I don't like it - it happens. But if it was like 3 bucks, who cares? And whether I liked it or not, either way I've broadened my horizons.

He doesn't like that people buy his game and than don't play it, or don't play it much, but I don't think people need to be saved from their own buying habits, in this case. It really isn't super manipulative, and it's really their own business. He's offering a product, and shouldn't dictate how people use it (or don't).

I don't think that's exactly his argument. He isn't talking about people NOT playing his game. He's specifically commenting that the people who bought his game on sale, and spent very little time on it, rated it poorly. He then notes that people who paid MORE for the game spent more time with it and thus gave it a higher review.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, but he's drawing parallels between 'spend more money = spend more time = fully understand the game' as opposed to 'spend 3 bucks = spend 30 minutes = this game is trash'.

The mentality he's fighting against it games being priced lower and thus being treated as throw away affairs. It reminds me of a story I heard when I was a bartender. A man was tasked with importing and marketing a vodka to the American market. Pricing the vodka lower in order to have the broadest access and appeal wasn't working. Sales were going anywhere and the vodka was considered inferior in quality. The man's solution? Rebranding and repricing. He massively raised the price of the vodka and marketed it as high quality. The result? Sales increased because the vodka was considered a high class liquor. But it was the same drink in the bottle.

I'm not saying that bad games will be reviewed better or appreciated more if they have a higher price tag; we've seen our fair share of bad games at full price. But he is drawing a correllation between how players view the money they spend on a game versus the perception of quality they have before they even go into the game. I've done that myself. There are times were I go into a 60 dollar game and feel as if the product wasn't up to snuff. But there are also times were I've paid bargain bin prices for a game and felt it was worth much much more.

Would I have felt the same way if I bought the game at full retail price? I couldn't say. But there is some expectation of quality/enjoyment associated with how much you pay for a game. And I think that's the point Rohrer's driving at.

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More research (developers, publishers, and (r)etailers) is needed for this article to be of much use. Right now we just have one dude and his assumptions. Plus, one man not wanting the money of others because he questions their purchasing habits (despite knowing next to nothing about their habits) is hardly worthy of a story, IMO.

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@davidwitten22:

Doesn't that malign complexity and coerce developers into making simpler, more visceral (for lack of a better word) games? That would probably eliminate the only two games I've beaten for the PS3 (MGS4 and Valkyria Chronicles).

And something has just now come to mind: the guy in the article whose name I am far too lazy to look up feels sorry for people who pay more because they bought just before a sale. What about the inverse, though? What's his opinion on somebody who just now found out about this game and has to pay a higher price because they were a day late?

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@hailinel said:

@tmthomsen: That's the point. He sees Humble/Steam sales as hurting the early adopters that buy at full price.

But late adopters who may not have heard about the game until well after it releases can go fuck themselves I guess?

In the end someone is still going to end up getting the short stick. I ain't sure why hearing about something first makes someone any more worthy of a discount.

Though I sorta get where the guy's coming from, I really don't agree with any of his conclusions or assumptions.

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@video_game_king: Probably does! As long as the tutorial (or however the game explains its mechanics to you) is fun and interesting its not an issue though. It's only an issue if the developer can't find a way to introduce the mechanics and the fundamentals in a way that is entertaining.