Atlus to Announce What "Everyone's Been Waiting For"

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#101 Posted by Eirikr (1006 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Soren said:

It's not like this game is actually getting a sequel anyway.
"You have chosen to follow your will and tread the path of thorns... like myself. In time, your true adversary will appear before you. Until that day, stay strong..."

I don't think I want a sequel for Nocturne anyway. I don't see how they could meaningfully work off what they accomplished in Nocturne.

Nocturne was about being forced into a situation where the world was fucked beyond repair and being given the power to rebuild it from scratch. At the end, you do that. Done.(or in the case of the freedom ending-- you don't)

It's not that Earth was fucked up beyond all repair, it's that cultists, interpreting an obscure scripture, fucked it up beyond all repair. The scriptures of Miroku that Hikawa finds refer to the Buddhist concept of the Maitreya, a future Buddha who will set a cracked world right again. In Hikawa's eyes, the world was in such a dire position and he probably fashioned himself to be the Maitreya, as many people have done throughout history. Though really, the Maitreya is what the Demi-Fiend becomes and it's pretty easy to see how this whole eschatological concept applies to the Conception at large. By setting the world back to normal in the true Neutral ending you're just stopping the religious crazies.

Oh, and @Juno500: you should know better than to talk P3 vs. P4. :D

#102 Posted by Soren (291 posts) -

@Eirikr said:

The scriptures of Miroku that Hikawa finds refer to the Buddhist concept of the Maitreya, a future Buddha who will set a cracked world right again.

Damn son, for real? I was totally unaware of that little tidbit. Very interesting.

#103 Edited by Juno500 (392 posts) -

@MiniPato: Nah, Yosuke was a bigger offender at it.

@Eirikr: I'm bored right now.

#104 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@Juno500 said:

It's been a while since I've written one of these long rants on why P3 is superior to P4.

You're in luck! I love long nerdy internet conversations about dumb things.

I preferred the pacing in P3. The fact that dungeon crawling took up daytime meant that you had to force in as much dungeon crawling in a single day as you could so as to make more room for S. Links. The ideal method in P4 was to wait for a rainy day because there's little to do otherwise on those days, do as much exploration as possible in that day, as much as hours at a time, and then go back to S. Links and story for hours at a time. I liked how in P3 I could spread out Tartarus exploration over several days and therefore had more freedom to decide how I wanted to manage that time. I would spend time dungeon crawling, then some time S. Linking, and so on.

The biggest pacing issue, however, comes in from the story segments. They kill the flow of the game because of WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS. There is way, way too much redundant and unnecessary dialogue in that game. It helps that the dialogue itself is well written, but it really needed a good editor. I'm not talking about the special event scenes like the trip to Tatsumi Port Island (I admit I was biased because of the P3 fan service) or the camping trip- for the most part I thought those were great. But all the scenes where they were at the food court going over the case was just frustrating to me and I was ready to get on with it. The beginning of the game is the biggest offender- At least 2 hours before the game starts proper and you actually have decisions to make about planning your schedule.

I agree that P4 needed an editor to remove the reams of redundant dialogue, but I hardly think that upsets the pacing all that much outside of the initial opening hours. Its annoying to see the Investigation Team sit around and discuss stuff you've figured out way before them, or the worst offender, Naoto, repeating what just happened in the cutscene before you....

But the main plot itself moves at a satisfying pace, I think. P3 on the other hand? Saying that nothing happens until 70% of the game isn't hyperbole or whatever-- I am 100% unironic when I say that. Nothing happens in the plot. You are just moving from one "monster of the week" to the next. You aren't pariticulary invested in the act of taking them out at all.

In all the time spent on both games (probably bordering about 1000 hours for both games combined) I never really noticed what you said about elemental weaknesses. What I did notice though, was how P3 had much smarter boss design

A. "1000 hours" DUDE WAT. I got barely half that under my notch!

B. Its really hard not to notice for me. Its why fusing Lilim with all of the main 4 ma-elemental spells is something literally everyone ends up doing in Persona 3, but there is not an equivalent for P4.

Especially in P3P. You know how oldschool SMT fans tend to dismiss modern Persona games, saying they just boil down to hitting the enemies weakness and rushing them? That is literally what P3P is! SP is neglible, enemies work with the weakness rules of P4(which are more generous) and the enemies carry the same design they had in P3(being weak to one of the 4 elements). They probably did that because your AI partners in P3 are really dumb, and using them effectively would be a lot harder without the exploitable weaknesses...But once I figured out how to control the dumb AI, the fights became extremely trivial and monotone.

was how P3 had much smarter boss design. Most of P4's bosses are just damage sponges- Huge HP counts but not much damage output, meaning that it takes a long time to kill them, but they are rarely threatening throughout the battle. This makes boss fights a drawn-out bore after a while since it's basically a race to drain their HP bar before you run out of SP. Shadow Yukiko is an exception to this, but most of the others are the same way. In contrast, many of P3's bosses are the opposite- high damage output but a more reasonable HP bar. This results in fights that are challenging but not needlessly long. Even after having played through the game several times, several of the Tartarus Guardians towards the end of the game gave me a challenge. Granted, Nyx had way too much HP, but that's still the exception.

Yeah, the Tartarus bosses were more glass cannon-y than P4's bosses. Which were more about resource management.

However, I disagree that the P4 bosses were a race to drain their HP. WIth excepetion of Shadow Rise/Teddie. Example: Shadow Kanji involves you juggling a healer and a lackey with opposite resistances, which means you had to focus on taking them out separately.

But despite preferring the aesthetics in P4, I preferred exploring Tartarus over the Midnight Channel. Sure, Tartarus has more floors, but the floors are also smaller. In P4, each floor takes way too long to explore completely. It feels like navigating a rat maze- you go all the way down one long corridor, find a dead end, go all the way down another long corridor, find another dead, and repeat until you find the stairs or whatever chests you're looking for. P3's floors were more compact and getting through each floor completely was less of a chore. Plus, you could send out your teammates to explore around and quickly find all the chests and the exit. Overall, there was a much better flow to dungeon exploration in Tartarus.

I liked the fact that P4's dungeon floors were longer and more maze-like. It made them feel like proper RPG floors. Each time you finished a floor in P4? you accomplished something. You got further in a maze and because you clearly knew there was an end in sight(all dungeons are around 10 floors).

P3's floors however? Strongly disagree. Completing one had me feeling nothing. You were climbing floors and the end just seemed further and further away from sight. Climbing a floor in P3 had me feeling this:

"oh great....another fucking floor. When am I going to get a goddamn teleporter?"

In P4 completing a floor felt like actual progress. The lack of gimmicks and variety in visuals/music really had me feeling that I was just doing the same thing over and over and over again in P3.

#105 Posted by Eirikr (1006 posts) -

@Soren: Yep! Miroku is the Japanese term for Maitreya. I'm pretty sure the Miroku scriptures are made up, but the name association is legit. I can't claim to be able to interpret Nocturne as well as I can Strange Journey, as I wasn't as well-versed in religion/myth as I am now (...and Wikipedia wasn't as good with language cross-sections back then either), but knowing that should help other things fall into place.

#106 Posted by MiniPato (2727 posts) -

@Juno500 said:

@MiniPato: Nah, Yosuke was a bigger offender at it.

Yosuke gets on my nerves at times, but never for that reason. Yosuke does not go on 10 minute recap speeches. If he ever does a recap, at least the writers try to mask it. Naoto just straight up goes "let me see if I have this clear and recall all the events that have transpired." Being a detective does not give you permission to blatantly test my patience!

#107 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@Eirikr said:

@mutha3 said:

@Soren said:

It's not like this game is actually getting a sequel anyway.
"You have chosen to follow your will and tread the path of thorns... like myself. In time, your true adversary will appear before you. Until that day, stay strong..."

I don't think I want a sequel for Nocturne anyway. I don't see how they could meaningfully work off what they accomplished in Nocturne.

Nocturne was about being forced into a situation where the world was fucked beyond repair and being given the power to rebuild it from scratch. At the end, you do that. Done.(or in the case of the freedom ending-- you don't)

It's not that Earth was fucked up beyond all repair, it's that cultists, interpreting an obscure scripture, fucked it up beyond all repair. The scriptures of Miroku that Hikawa finds refer to the Buddhist concept of the Maitreya, a future Buddha who will set a cracked world right again. In Hikawa's eyes, the world was in such a dire position and he probably fashioned himself to be the Maitreya, as many people have done throughout history. Though really, the Maitreya is what the Demi-Fiend becomes and it's pretty easy to see how this whole eschatological concept applies to the Conception at large. By setting the world back to normal in the true Neutral ending you're just stopping the religious crazies.

That's the slant the story takes if you go with the neutral ending, yes.

There's, like, 4 other Reasons to pick from in Nocturne. What made Nocturne interesting, at least to me, was contemplating all of these different perspectives of how the world should be "fixed" and interacting with the characters who represented each line of thinking.

Besides, I might be misremembering here-- but wasn't picking the neutral ending the MC going "you know what? Fuck it, I don't know how to fix the world. that's my answer"

Its been years since I saw that cutscene, but that's how it stuck with me.

#108 Edited by Juno500 (392 posts) -

@MiniPato said:

@Juno500 said:

@MiniPato: Nah, Yosuke was a bigger offender at it.

Yosuke gets on my nerves at times, but never for that reason. Yosuke does not go on 10 minute recap speeches. If he ever does a recap, at least the writers try to mask it. Naoto just straight up goes "let me see if I have this clear and recall all the events that have transpired." Being a detective does not give you permission to blatantly test my patience!

Naoto actually has a brain though, when she does it feels like the investigation is actually going somewhere.

Before she joined they were completely clueless.

#109 Posted by Soren (291 posts) -

@Eirikr said:

Miroku is the Japanese term for Maitreya.

Fucking awesome. The little stuff like this goes a long way for me when it comes to appreciating a narrative. I oughta give Nocturne another whirl, maybe it'll help me get over the tedium of P2's dungeon crawling.

#110 Posted by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@Juno500 said:

Naoto actually has a brain though, when she does it feels like the investigation is actually going somewhere.

What are you talking about? Naoto literally added nothing to the investigation! Name one thing she helped the team figure out.

Naoto mostly goes "AHA I KNEW I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG SENPAI *summary*"

#111 Edited by MiniPato (2727 posts) -

@Juno500 said:

@MiniPato said:

@Juno500 said:

@MiniPato: Nah, Yosuke was a bigger offender at it.

Yosuke gets on my nerves at times, but never for that reason. Yosuke does not go on 10 minute recap speeches. If he ever does a recap, at least the writers try to mask it. Naoto just straight up goes "let me see if I have this clear and recall all the events that have transpired." Being a detective does not give you permission to blatantly test my patience!

Naoto actually has a brain though, when she does it feels like the investigation is actually going somewhere.

Before she joined they were completely clueless.

When she does it, she feels like a deus ex machina and not an actual character. They were clueless yes, but inexperienced teenagers trying to solve a mystery that is way over their heads and totally crazy is part of the charm. When you add a real detective to explain everything away, it feels like a forced acceleration of the story. And when she does figure something out, it's after the fact. She explains motivations, but doesn't predict actions. If she discovers something, it's already too late to do anything about it, pretty much the same thing that happens all the time with the investigation team before she joined. So she basically replaced their role as the recapper. Except it was more fun having the inexperienced characters try to piece things together. When Naoto joined she didn't eliminate that part of the formula, she just made it more bland.

I don't mean to hate so much on her, but her character just annoys me because she is so blatantly utilitarian in terms of function in the main story.

#112 Posted by FCKSNAP (2299 posts) -

It's Devil Survivor 2.

Also, I think everyone forgets that Atlus USA hasn't announced that they were publishing both the P4 remake and fighting game. So don't freak out the next time they tease an "unannounced Persona game"!

#113 Edited by Soren (291 posts) -

@Snapstacle: Atlus JP announced this, not the US publishing branch. DS2 came out a while ago there.

#114 Posted by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@Snapstacle said:

It's Devil Survivor 2.

Also, I think everyone forgets that Atlus USA hasn't announced that they were publishing both the P4 remake and fighting game. So don't freak out the next time they tease an "unannounced Persona game"!

No, its not. This was Atlus JP.

DS2 was announced 6 months ago.

#115 Posted by MiniPato (2727 posts) -

@Snapstacle said:

It's Devil Survivor 2.

Also, I think everyone forgets that Atlus USA hasn't announced that they were publishing both the P4 remake and fighting game. So don't freak out the next time they tease an "unannounced Persona game"!

If that is indeed their major announcement, then I wonder if Atlus comprehends the scope that the word "everyone" entails.

#116 Posted by FCKSNAP (2299 posts) -

I saw the title and thought of today's "announcement". The fact that you all replied at the same time makes me think there's really only one person posting with multiple accounts!

#117 Posted by Eirikr (1006 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

That's the slant the story takes if you go with the neutral ending, yes.

There's, like, 4 other reasons to pick from in Nocturne. What made Nocturne interesting, at least to me, was contemplating all of these different perspectives of how the world should be "fixed" and interacting with the characters who represented each line of thinking.

Besides, I might be misremembering here-- but wasn't picking the neutral ending the MC going "you know what? Fuck it, I don't know how to fix the world. that's my answer"

Its been years since I saw that cutscene, but that's how it stuck with me.

Sort of. The "fuck it" ending is from the Demon Neutral ending, the BAD Neutral ending. And what a bad ending it is: Kagutsuchi sees your total indifference and exits stage right (yes, you don't even fight a final boss) and the ending shows the Demi-Fiend walking through a barren landscape. Exciting! It's also the first ending I got, which was a bummer. The True Neutral ending is triggered essentially by agreeing with everyone, then disagreeing with everyone, while also siding with Yuko, who is tantamount to a "Neutral Heroine." If you screw any of this up you get the Demon Neutral ending instead. So yes, contemplating the other Reasons is part of it, but in real SMT fashion Neutrality is determined by telling everyone else they are full of shit.

Had Hikawa had his way, the only humans in the Vortex World would have been him and Yuko, she basically just used to create his new world. But by inviting her students to the hospital because she didn't fully commit to Hikawa's plan, Yuko threw a few other variables into the mix (plus there's Lucifer too). So suddenly, the playing field is a lot larger than one guy's crazy interpretations and machinations. Really, unless you side with Hikawa, no one likes him -- and this goes beyond just the normal ending.

#118 Edited by Juno500 (392 posts) -

But the main plot itself moves at a satisfying pace, I think. P3 on the other hand? Saying that nothing happens until 70% of the game isn't hyperbole or whatever-- I am 100% unironic when I say that. Nothing happens in the plot. You are just moving from one "monster of the week" to the next. You aren't pariticulary invested in the act of taking them out at all.

I guess the key issue here is that I generally don't pay much attention to the quality of plot development in video games because to me, very few of them are any good. I pay more attention to stuff like the feeling of the world/atmosphere and the characters. I'd give the edge to P3 on the former and to P4 on the latter (mostly just because I hated Fuuka and loved Naoto, otherwise it's a wash between the two). But when it comes to actual narrative, I care most about how much it interrupts the rest of the game, and that's a big chunk of why I preferred P3.

@mutha3 said:

A. "1000 hours" DUDE WAT. I got barely half that under my notch!

Summer of 2009. I got P3 the first day of break having little knowledge of what the hell it was besides being a JRPG and everybody was raving about it. I was hooked instantly, played it compulsively. Didn't slow down at all when I got P4, and once I finished it I went back to P3, then switched on and off between the two games. It helped that work was slow that summer so I had plenty of free time. Probably saved me a lot of money since I bought so few other games. It had nothing to do with the Endurance Run either, I never even knew it existed until 2010 since before then I barely came to this site.

The rest of your post, I guess it really just comes down to personal preference, no matter how many times I played through both games I was simply bothered by the issues about P4 I mentioned more than those you mentioned in P3.

About Nocturne:

@mutha3 said:

Besides, I might be misremembering here-- but wasn't picking the neutral ending the MC going "you know what? Fuck it, I don't know how to fix the world. that's my answer"

Its been years since I saw that cutscene, but that's how it stuck with me.

To me it felt more like "the world wasn't as broken as everybody else said it was".

#119 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@Eirikr said:

@mutha3 said:

That's the slant the story takes if you go with the neutral ending, yes.

There's, like, 4 other reasons to pick from in Nocturne. What made Nocturne interesting, at least to me, was contemplating all of these different perspectives of how the world should be "fixed" and interacting with the characters who represented each line of thinking.

Besides, I might be misremembering here-- but wasn't picking the neutral ending the MC going "you know what? Fuck it, I don't know how to fix the world. that's my answer"

Its been years since I saw that cutscene, but that's how it stuck with me.

Sort of. The "fuck it" ending is from the Demon Neutral ending, the BAD Neutral ending. And what a bad ending it is: Kagutsuchi sees your total indifference and exits stage right (yes, you don't even fight a final boss) and the ending shows the Demi-Fiend walking through a barren landscape. Exciting! It's also the first ending I got, which was a bummer. The True Neutral ending is triggered essentially by agreeing with everyone, then disagreeing with everyone, while also siding with Yuko, who is tantamount to a "Neutral Heroine." If you screw any of this up you get the Demon Neutral ending instead. So yes, contemplating the other Reasons is part of it, but in real SMT fashion Neutrality is determined by telling everyone else they are full of shit.

Yeah, the bolded was sort of what I was getting at. The bad Neutral ending sounds like an apathetic reaction to what is going: MC doesn't care what the fate of the world is. But I interpreted the True Neutral ending as the MC recognizing that no one is wise enough to make the decision Kagatsuchi threw on his lap.

My search for the exact dialogue on youtube has turned out fruitless. You got anything where I might look that little exchange with Kagatsuchi over without needing to dump 40 hours into a video game?

#120 Edited by Juno500 (392 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

@Juno500 said:

Naoto actually has a brain though, when she does it feels like the investigation is actually going somewhere.

What are you talking about? Naoto literally added nothing to the investigation! Name one thing she helped the team figure out.

Naoto mostly goes "AHA I KNEW I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG SENPAI *summary*"

That Mitsuo didn't kill or kidnap anybody besides King Moron.

She pointed out the subtext of the warning letter- that the culprit went to the home of a known detective and personally left a threatening letter, confident that he wouldn't be identified by it. A key part of identifying the real culprit was that he could conduct his activities without attracting suspicion, and the letter was part of what led them to realizing that.

Also that Adachi's reaction to Namatame's diary was further proof of his guilt.

#121 Posted by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@Juno500 said:

@mutha3 said:

@Juno500 said:

Naoto actually has a brain though, when she does it feels like the investigation is actually going somewhere.

What are you talking about? Naoto literally added nothing to the investigation! Name one thing she helped the team figure out.

Naoto mostly goes "AHA I KNEW I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG SENPAI *summary*"

That Mitsuo didn't kill or kidnap anybody besides King Moron.

All right, I'll give you that one.

She pointed out the subtext of the warning letter- that the culprit went to the home of a known detective and personally left a threatening letter, confident that he wouldn't be identified by it. A key part of identifying the real culprit was that he could conduct his activities without attracting suspicion, and the letter was what led them to realizing that.

Even Rise makes contributions like that, though...

Also that Adachi's reaction to Namatame's diary was further proof of his guilt.

This is a classic example of Naoto-ism. AFTER Adachi was caught red-handed, right as he was ready to escape anyway-- Naoto suddenly blurts that she knew something all along.

#122 Posted by Juno500 (392 posts) -

@mutha3 said:

Even Rise makes contributions like that, though...

Example?

#123 Posted by Codeacious (960 posts) -

A bit more on topic, has anyone considered the possibility of a new IP? I know some people who are waiting for something new. Then again, they just did Catherine, which was a new IP anyway.

#124 Edited by mutha3 (4985 posts) -

@isnipeyoudie said:

A bit more on topic, has anyone considered the possibility of a new IP? I know some people who are waiting for something new. Then again, they just did Catherine, which was a new IP anyway.

How do you wait on something that doesn't exist? They didn't announce they were releasing a new game-- they said it was something fans have been clamoring for.

That being said, you're right. We've headed straight into off-topic ville a page or 2 ago. PM if you wanna carry on our conversation Juno.

@Juno500 said:

@mutha3 said:

Even Rise makes contributions like that, though...

Example?

Establishing that the murderer doesn't necessarily need to have a personal connection to his/her victims, and that they shouldn't make assumptions about understanding the motivation of someone insane enough to throw people into television sets. Turned out she was right! Namatame had nothing against Yukiko/Kanji/whatever.

#125 Posted by Juno500 (392 posts) -

Noted.

Anyway, unless Atlus Co. has picked up Atlus USA's habit of teasing their fanbase, it seems really unlikely this is anything other than Persona 5, although I guess another mainline SMT game is possible.

#126 Posted by WatanabeKazuma (989 posts) -

This discussion has brought up some real interesting points, chief of which being that I should really finish playing Nocturne at some point!

Most of the recaps do get redundant in P4 I agree but you don't even have to take part in most of them. I think the ER falsely accentuated that to a degree, as they felt the need to go through it whenever it was presented.

#127 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@WatanabeKazuma: Nocturne is the best game Atlus has ever made, bar none, and I will stand by that even though I really wouldn't want to play it again.

Online
#128 Edited by Chop (1996 posts) -
@Animasta said:

@WatanabeKazuma: Nocturne is the best game Atlus has ever made, bar none, and I will stand by that even though I really wouldn't want to play it again.

 
Nocturne can't be the best. It has that fucking Pixie park place. 
#129 Posted by WatanabeKazuma (989 posts) -

@Chop said:

@Animasta said:

@WatanabeKazuma: Nocturne is the best game Atlus has ever made, bar none, and I will stand by that even though I really wouldn't want to play it again.

Nocturne can't be the best. It has that fucking Pixie park place.

... Coincidentally that being the last area that I got to in my playthrough!

The look and everything is great, and the music (oh god, the music!) got me straight away. I don't know, It just felt a bit disjointed so far. I think I was waiting for the real meat of the story to get under way.

I will say that playing it retroactively after Persona is a surreal experience, what with the Demons acting like they do. I don't think I will ever get used to the negotiation system either, that's one holdover I really don't care for.

#130 Edited by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@Chop said:

@Animasta said:

@WatanabeKazuma: Nocturne is the best game Atlus has ever made, bar none, and I will stand by that even though I really wouldn't want to play it again.

Nocturne can't be the best. It has that fucking Pixie park place.

its not that bad don't be a big baby

Online
#131 Posted by BoG (5187 posts) -

@WatanabeKazuma said:

@Chop said:

@Animasta said:

@WatanabeKazuma: Nocturne is the best game Atlus has ever made, bar none, and I will stand by that even though I really wouldn't want to play it again.

Nocturne can't be the best. It has that fucking Pixie park place.

... Coincidentally that being the last area that I got to in my playthrough!

The look and everything is great, and the music (oh god, the music!) got me straight away. I don't know, It just felt a bit disjointed so far. I think I was waiting for the real meat of the story to get under way.

I will say that playing it retroactively after Persona is a surreal experience, what with the Demons acting like they do. I don't think I will ever get used to the negotiation system either, that's one holdover I really don't care for.

I'm playing the series the same way as you, but I like the negotiation system. I began with P3, then P4, then bought Nocturne from PlayAsia. I've been plying through SMT 1 before getting into Nocturne, but so far I like it. The one gripe I have is that it does show its age in the controls department. Moving your dude around is uncomfortable at times.

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