Anyone noticed this about Booker and Songbird? (Spoilers).

#1 Edited by postnothing (65 posts) -

Well, this thread contains end-game spoilers.

I don't know if this was brought up before, but has anyone else noticed how each of Booker, Comstock and Songbird die? One way or another, they all die by drowning. Comstock is drowned by Booker after he smashes his head on the baptismal font; Booker is drowned by Elizabeth in the river; and Songbird is also drowned by Elizabeth when she opens a tear to Rapture.

I personally haven't paid a lot of attention to the discussions on the true identity of Songbird, and, quite frankly, I didn't really care. This, however, struck me as conspicuous that these three characters died in somewhat similar ways, especially Songbird. So, since everyone knows that Booker and Comstock are the same person, do you think Songbird is a variation of either Booker or Comstock?

Then again, when I think about who Ken Levine is influenced by; I can't help but think that this was done on purpose to throw us off. This actually reminds me of the second season of Mad Men (seasons 1 and 2 Mad Men spoilers ahead) when everyone thought that the blonde child Peggy checks on in her mother's house is her love child, when the truth was that she actually gave him/her away.

#2 Posted by DwigtK (186 posts) -

I think you might get some heat for this, maybe try putting a "Spoiler Warning" in your thread title. Hope this helps.

#3 Edited by postnothing (65 posts) -

@dwigtk: I tried, but titles are limited to 60 characters. I'll try to change the title.

#4 Posted by vikingdeath1 (973 posts) -

WelI haven't watched Mad Men yet so Hopefully that last bit didn't ruin anything important..

also no; I didn't notice how they were all drowned. Cool beans.

#5 Posted by ArtisanBreads (3861 posts) -

Dude if you read what he says he says SPOILERS in the first sentence.

Anyways, I noticed this about Comstock and Booker but hadn't considered the Songbird part.

#6 Edited by Doctorchimp (4076 posts) -

I never really thought Songbird drowned, I didn't think it really breathed. I just thought the deep ocean crushed him.

But yeah I do see the connection of everyone that had a say in Elizabeth's future died by water.

#7 Posted by postnothing (65 posts) -

@vikingdeath1: Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I think it most probably won't ruin anything important. It's just a relatively small subplot anyway. I know this though, it won't ruin your enjoyment of the show. Sorry again :p

#8 Posted by DwigtK (186 posts) -

@artisanbreads: I am aware that he said spoilers in the first sentence, I have also seen posts just like this where people explode for not having it in the title. Was just trying to be helpful and avoid the OP having to go through it.

#9 Edited by Snail (8606 posts) -

It's a nice observation, but it's probably just symbolic.

This made me realize something else: the only scenes where you see the sky and the ocean together in Bioshock games are the lighthouse scenes at the beginning of each, and the final one at the end of Infinite. It's a nice symbolism.

#10 Edited by Sin4profit (2937 posts) -

i just assumed it was keeping with the baptismal theme. death of an old life, beginning of anew.

#11 Edited by postnothing (65 posts) -

@doctorchimp: Interesting. Well, I always thought that Songbird was similar to the Big Daddies, in the sense that there is a living human being underneath the suit. Anyway, I think that transition from low-pressure to high-pressure environments lead to Decompression sickness, so you're probably right; Songbird probably didn't suffocate.

#12 Posted by chilibean_3 (1644 posts) -

Huh. No, actually. Never thought about the Songbird part of it. I'm not sure if there is anything meaningful to it other then following the baptism stuff. And Songbird probably died due to the pressure more than suffocation but the water is still the important part. Neat thing to think about.

#13 Posted by GaspoweR (3066 posts) -

@snail said:

It's a nice observation, but it's probably just symbolic.

These made me realize something else: the only scenes where you see the sky and the ocean together in Bioshock games are the lighthouse scenes at the beginning of each, and the final one at the end of Infinite. It's a nice symbolism.

If we really want to be super symbolic and philosophical about this stuff (and probably make some pretty cool artwork in the process), we can view that universe in a sphere where in the middle of the sphere is flat with a body of water with the center being the lighthouse, the very bottom of the sphere is Rapture and hovering above at the topmost part of the sphere is Columbia.

#14 Edited by postnothing (65 posts) -

@dwigtk: Yeah, I guess some can be overly sensitive when it come to spoilers. Thanks for the heads-up.

@sin4profit: @snail: I agree. Actually, I have always thought that it was in keeping with the baptism motif. I also agree with what doctorchimp said, that everyone who had an impact on Elizabeth's future died by water.

#15 Posted by postnothing (65 posts) -

@gaspower: I'm actually surprised that -- as far as I know -- nobody as done that yet :p

#16 Posted by ArtisanBreads (3861 posts) -

@dwigtk said:

@artisanbreads: I am aware that he said spoilers in the first sentence, I have also seen posts just like this where people explode for not having it in the title. Was just trying to be helpful and avoid the OP having to go through it.

I get you but people will complain about everything. If you're going into a topic delving into a games story, all spoilers are in play.

#17 Posted by I_Stay_Puft (3445 posts) -
#18 Posted by postnothing (65 posts) -
#19 Posted by I_Stay_Puft (3445 posts) -
#20 Posted by joshwent (2218 posts) -

So what you're saying is that in Bioshock Infinite 2... we'll play as Songbird?

I'm in.

#21 Posted by HatKing (5974 posts) -

Yes, the game is filled with heavy handed religious parables. Like Jeff said, if you over analyse this stuff, it starts to fall apart. It's best experienced as a crazy action romp through a really interesting world.

#22 Posted by DwigtK (186 posts) -

@artisanbreads: Yes, I agree with you on that for sure.

As fort the topic at hand, all of this talk on Infinite makes me want to play it more, I never played any of the other Bioshock's but for how much everyone is talking about the story in this one it seems like a must play.

#23 Posted by crithon (3307 posts) -

yes, it was mentioned in the Vinny ending Infinite they mention that. But also.... you know with a mask and all, and even the design base on Big Daddy, You'd think song bird could have withstand a small amount of water like the first fall he crack. Ocean pressure okay.

#24 Edited by NTM (7409 posts) -

I'll edit this message soon after I read your thread, but I have to say... I'm just really happy you made a Bioshock thread! :D I just went back to playing it since I bought the game again, though on 360 this time with all the DLC. I'm having a hard time deciding if it's my second or third favorite game of this year. The reason is because while it interests me very, very much, it initially came with some lofty disappointments, so I was quite conflicted about it; still am, but after Burial At Sea, some of that has been alleviated.

Edit - Oh, no no. It's just the theme, ever since the beginning: Baptism. Songbird was created by Fink to protect Elizabeth the same way the Big Daddy's were made to protect the Little Sisters, and there's actually a reason for that (Fink stole from Suchong). I don't think the actual person in the Songbird suit, if there is even one (which I don't think there is), was ever a point of interest, though I guess it can be.

I also don't think you should interpret it that way either if you look at all the facts, though I can't rightfully tell you you shouldn't since that's really what the game is about in the end, perceptions. It's just that what you bring up isn't something that ever crossed my mind, nor will I ever think about it since I feel like it's factually just not the case, but who knows, it could be, which would just turn out to be random to me if that was ever revealed.

#25 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3861 posts) -

@dwigtk: I didn't like Bioshock 1 too much (thought the world was amazing but story was not) and this one has a great story and great world, to me.

#26 Edited by NTM (7409 posts) -

@crithon: I don't think he was made to withstand pressure underwater since he wasn't meant to go underwater. The idea of Songbird came from Big Daddy's, but I don't think he was made with the same stuff.

#27 Posted by NTM (7409 posts) -

@artisanbreads: I disagree. I think it was quite the opposite if anything. The story was, if not better, just as good but more complex in Infinite, so long after, even to now, it can have you still thinking about the story and what it all meant. Columbia on its own was disappointing to me when compared to Rapture, but I feel like that was on purpose because it wasn't the main focus. I say Columbia was disappointing, but I still think it's a great setting, but it's hard to outdo Rapture to me. I feel like in Infinite, Irrational took a different approach with it and took liberties. I don't know why you didn't like the original Bioshock story and liked Infinite's, perhaps it's a more interesting topic? I don't know.

#28 Posted by crithon (3307 posts) -

@ntm: that's what I said, but even just a small amount for flying in the clouds with rain and high altitude. First time he touches water the lens cracks and he bleeds.

#29 Posted by postnothing (65 posts) -

@hatking: I only brought this up, because I thought that it was a fairly straightforward and interesting detail in the story. But, I actually agree with you to a certain extent. I've seen countless discussions where people tend to dissect every little thing, and end up straying so far that they miss the point.

I think the Bioshock series means different things to different people. I feel like both the story and the world created are multi-layered enough that having viewpoints from people who experienced it from different perspectives can be, I don't know, enlightening? I mean, if people focused only on the action set-pieces, things like the historical facts that went into fleshing out the world of Columbia, would have gone over my head, for instance.

#30 Edited by Yummylee (21761 posts) -

I suppose it's meant to infer all the more that Songbird is another Booker.

Online
#31 Posted by postnothing (65 posts) -

@dwigtk: You can get all the Bioshock games for less than $60. Infinite is currently on sale, and you can get the Ultimate Rapture edition for $30 or less.

#32 Posted by ArtisanBreads (3861 posts) -

@ntm said:

@artisanbreads: I disagree. I think it was quite the opposite if anything. The story was, if not better, just as good but more complex in Infinite, so long after, even to now, it can have you still thinking about the story and what it all meant. Columbia on its own was disappointing to me when compared to Rapture, but I feel like that was on purpose because it wasn't the main focus. I say Columbia was disappointing, but I still think it's a great setting, but it's hard to outdo Rapture to me. I feel like in Infinite, Irrational took a different approach with it and took liberties. I don't know why you didn't like the original Bioshock story and liked Infinite's, perhaps it's a more interesting topic? I don't know.

Everything after the twist in Bioshock wasn't good to me. Infinite was good all the way through and tied into the first game... it was very smart. The highs were higher for me with the characters.

I also really enjoy the different aspects they fleshed out about the setting of Columbia. The use of modern stolen music is one of the coolest little touches in a game, to me. The way the plot was more directly political. The Fraternal Order of the Raven was also one of my favorite moments of a game this year, really cool environment. The museum was also an interesting setting. The skylines were cool in the world and great in the gamplay.

I also liked playing this game way more than playing 1, so that helped.

I know most people like Bioshock 1 more than I do but I think Infinite is a much better game.

#33 Posted by Nightriff (5096 posts) -

Nice observation, didn't even cross my mind that both Booker and Comstock died the same way let alone, Songbird also dying the same painful death.

#34 Edited by l4wd0g (1958 posts) -

did Songbird drown or was it crushed by the underwater pressure? I'm not convinced Sognbird could breathe.

#35 Posted by NTM (7409 posts) -

@crithon said:

@ntm: that's what I said, but even just a small amount for flying in the clouds with rain and high altitude. First time he touches water the lens cracks and he bleeds.

There's probably a good reason for it, I doubt it's a mistake. It's simply unexplained in detail as to why it happens.

#36 Edited by NTM (7409 posts) -

@artisanbreads: That's fine, that's your opinion. There are many others as well that, while may like the original better overall, also believe the combat's not that great in it, I'm not one of them; I like the mix of weapons and plasmids, it makes it fun, but it's also not the reason I love Bioshock. I think Infinite feels different when it comes to combat, but is just as adequate to me, though I can understand why some would believe it's better.

One thing, though somewhat minor, that I wish transferred over into Infinite is how in the original and in two, when you upgraded weapons, it not only made it more powerful or what have you, it also changed the look, and that was cool to me. I wouldn't fault you for liking Infinite more, it's a superb game, but I don't like it quite as much as the original merely due to atmosphere. I'm liking Infinite more due to the blend of Rapture and Columbia, not just the cities, but the characters, like how Fink stole ideas from Suchong.

I should also mention that I really, really liked Bioshock 2. The only reason I mention it is because it seems like that's never in the discussion when it comes to these games, and perhaps rightly so, but not because it's a bad game. I just think it deserves a mention somewhere.

#37 Posted by Rowr (5711 posts) -

Well if it was done to throw us off the scent it worked on me. I was so convinced of the booker/songbird connection that it confused the actual ending of the game because my mind was already so far down that path.

#38 Posted by Crembaw (419 posts) -

I thought Songbird died from the crushing, terrible pressure at the ocean floor.

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