Burial At Sea Episode 2 Discussion *SPOILERS

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#1 Edited by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

I didn't see a thread for this so I figured I'd start one.

I want to start by saying as the final piece of Bioshock created by it's original creators, I feel like they really wrapped everything up nicely. Elizabeth dying was really sad but her actions created the events of Bioshock 1, and they did it in a way that didn't feel too forced. I think its also interesting that they confirmed stuff people were guessing about, like the Big Daddies and Song Bird being related. The Lutece Twins telling Daisy she had to be killed my Elizabeth wasn't something I was expecting and adds a new wrinkle to that scene.

I was originally very worried when I heard that it was stealth focused, which makes sense when you think about Elizabeth's character but putting stealth in a game that wasn't original meant to have it is a recipe for disaster. But you know what? I thought the Stealth was totally ok. It wasn't amazing, but it didn't feel terrible. The Peeping Tom Plasmid really helped, especially when I got the upgrade that makes it not use adam when standing still. That kind of broke it to be honest. I also thought it was a good length. Took me about 3 and half hours, which was way better then the 90 minutes the first episode took.

So yeah I thought it was great. I'm just really sad that this team won't be making another game together.

Also fuck Atlas!

#2 Posted by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

Just started it, really liked the beginning and thought the stealth was going to be fun, but about an hour and a half into it, I'm starting to really hate it. The stealth for me feels a bit broken and making just the tiniest noise possible across the level still will call attention to someone.

I liked the combat in all three games, but this might be the first time I dread through the gameplay for the story in a Bioshock game. I really hope it turns around.

#4 Edited by NTM (7379 posts) -

I didn't really like the very end. It fits the themes, but I hoped in the finale it would break it. All it revealed was how the plane went down in the original. Overall though, everything before was great and it benefits if you remember everything you've experienced in the first and Infinite. I felt though, perhaps to its detriment, that it covered some of the story and character aspects in a way that would help some that didn't like the way Infinite treated some of its subjects.

It didn't bother me much because it was exciting to see it all, but it seemed a little too obvious. As for the stealth, I thought it was fine, but the enemy's were extremely stupid. You could walk right in front of them and knock them over the head as long as their meter didn't fill. Anyways, great DLC, though I didn't like that it pretty much made a full circle. Elizabeth talks about it not changing, and that she could only make a dent, and she didn't even do that.

If you take the Bioshock series as a whole, it makes Infinite better in my opinion. This could have wrapped it up more interestingly though in the very end.

#5 Posted by NTM (7379 posts) -

Man, there is hardly any news on this DLC, like no one played it.

#6 Posted by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

@jeust: Good catch. Thanks.

@ntm said:

Anyways, great DLC, though I didn't like that it pretty much made a full circle. Elizabeth talks about it not changing, and that she could only make a dent, and she didn't even do that.

Well she did. She is the reason Jack was used by Atlas, which lead to the events of Bioshock 1. Without Jack, no one would have saved the little sisters.

#7 Edited by NTM (7379 posts) -

@jeanluc said:

@jeust: Good catch. Thanks.

@ntm said:

Anyways, great DLC, though I didn't like that it pretty much made a full circle. Elizabeth talks about it not changing, and that she could only make a dent, and she didn't even do that.

Well she did. She is the reason Jack was used by Atlas, which lead to the events of Bioshock 1. Without Jack, no one would have saved the little sisters.

Yes, but that didn't change the beginning of Bioshock, only explained as to how it happened, therefore she didn't really make a dent in terms of a difference between what we already knew had happened. That's what I mean, it just made a full circle. You interpreted what I said in a different way.

#8 Edited by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

@ntm said:

Yes, but that didn't change the beginning of Bioshock, only explained as to how it happened, therefore she didn't really make a dent in terms of a difference between what we already knew had happened. That's what I mean, it just made a full circle. You interpreted what I said in a different way.

I see what you mean. It doesn't really change anything for use, rather just explain it. Honestly I'm fine with that though.

#9 Posted by NTM (7379 posts) -

@jeanluc: I'm not. I felt like, when I take into consideration starting this series back in 07, to now, after all these years and a few more games, what happens in the end is you go back to square one. I thought it could have been a little more satisfying.

#10 Posted by NTM (7379 posts) -

Plus, I should say, in more ways than one, it was actually kind of a depressing end.

#11 Posted by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

Well I just beat it a couple minutes ago, and I'm glad it got a lot better. Still didn't much like the stealth, but it did its job.

I think the biggest thing for me is that I played the first Bioshock since the first second it was available, and it became my favorite game (and then series). It was my first game I had bought when I turned 17, and I got it around the same time I started dating my wife. Since it came out, I graduated high school, married my wife, got my license to drive, had several different cars, worked several different jobs, got the chains from Bioshock 1 tattoo'd on my arms, and had loved ones pass on. It was a series I could always go back to when bad stuff happened, something to pass the time when my wife was away for the military, something to get my aggression out. And when the ending happened and the credits started to roll, I got real emotional. I know its corny to be attached to a game, but it was a big part of my life and I feel like its now over in a sense. There's indefinite closer with the team ending and the story essentially being wrapped up. And it brings me joy and sadness.

...glad to get that off my chest.

#12 Posted by crithon (3256 posts) -

hmmmmm, just finished it just now.... don't know how to react. It's not what I expected..... it was a surprise.

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#13 Posted by NTM (7379 posts) -

@somedelicook: I don't think that's ridiculous at all. When there is a series, and you think about the great times you had with the first game as well as where you were in life at the time in general, and then all that has happened in your personal life since then to now, it can make you think, and perhaps even get emotional.

#14 Edited by ThunderSlash (1730 posts) -

That lobotomy scene. Yikes!

And what was that about the Luteces dying in the real world and if they materialized themselves again they will lose their powers?

Overall I like it. It was good long piece of story focused DLC. Jack still looks like a doofus despite the graphical makeover.

I missed a couple of the Voxophones. Did they ever explain who was inside the Songbird suit? And how Songbird got fell into kid Liz's tower?

#15 Edited by Kushteh (11 posts) -

Just finished it, I originally wrote a really long post covering pretty much every plot point but I stayed up all night to play it and now my mind doesn't follow conventional logic anymore.

Loved how they tied everything together, even if some points were very convenient and convoluted (Elizabeth could probably have stopped Rapture from existing in the first place rather than going there while it was already on the way out but, whatever, time travel.) I guess thinking this stuff through is what I've come to enjoy about the Bioshock series anyway. Very nearly collapses under it's own weight and up it's own arse but just pulls it off with enough style and confidence to be brilliant.

As an aside, Felt that bit of retcon with Daisy was completely unnecessary, seemed like they shoehorned it in just to have her be the good gal at heart people wanted her to be.

The stealth gameplay combined with low ammo and utility plasmids was not bad at all and I felt actually served the Bioshock universe much better than the straight up shooter mechanics that came before it, with a little more work they might have been onto something, just makes me even more bummed out about Irrational closing. I also thought they handled Elizabeth's character development tremendously well with such a short playtime and it depresses me to know that I won't ever be able to go back to Infinite and see her without thinking about that last 10 minutes and how it affects the original Bioshock, bleak shit man.

As usual, excellent art direction throughout, those guys have a real talent for dystopia and beautiful ugly shit. Was especially nice seeing some more of Columbia, as well as that great moment between the Big Daddy and Little Sisters near the end.

Also, I think the Paris section at the beginning has to be one of my favourite Bioshock moments, only two cheery "Bonjour, Madmoiselle!"s down that street and you just know what's coming, I wanted her to stay and eat that criossant forever.

#16 Posted by AdequatelyPrepared (532 posts) -

Fucking fuck that lobotomy scene. Jesus Christ.
Felt that the retcon with Daisy was incredibly unnecessary.
We also finally found out what ending of Bioshock was actually canon.
Overall, I think that this was pretty good, the stealth was a bit broken, especially with the Peeping Tom mods, but everything was tied up nicely and all the environments (barring Columbia, it was a bit barren), had that nice attention-to-detail.
Was not expecting such a somber ending though.
The dialogue was actually quite good, especially between Elizabeth and not-Booker.
Sad that Irrational is closing, but honestly could not think of a better way for them to finish.

#17 Edited by crithon (3256 posts) -

I had some time to think about this, and it's mixed. I enjoyed seeing Elizabeth learn to be without powers and to grow. That I think is the strongest elements about this game. And near the end where she's trying to rationalize everything especially when she's dealing with things are going way out of control were actually really exciting moment. It makes Elizabeth an exceptional character, even when things are down, not exactly like a super powered ending which is what I kept begging for especially during the Lobotomy.

There's a point where it starts to feel they dumbed it down when they have to explain things, like when the Luteces twins explain about the metaphor of blood and womanhood. Or even just explaining constant variables theme again, it looses that sense of discovery people had after the game was release and now made it into something like Star Wars or Metal Gear's 13 year old idea of poetry. And seeing the hero of Bioshock 1 just comes off weird, especially in a series that constantly uses visuals of statues, icons and amusement park rides to talk around ideas.

The stealth sections weren't half bad, half the time it's clunky or just a little bit off, but these segments reminded me a lot of a game from 1998 (especially thief 1 and 2). But it's not exactly the worst or the best, but it just a good bit of variety, I loved the air vents, felt those really added things. And the fact they reuse on big map and it kept feeling new every single time I came back. But in the end, I actually just ran through most areas and that worked just as well.

This actually made Ryan actually more imposing an actual force to be reckoned with. Early on I was just going to think Ryan was actually this silly idea that becomes more amusing as Raptures embodies him in silly things, like the Ryan the Lion and Parasite the Rat story books. That's a problem I have with this series, the environments irrational creates just over power what they are trying to say in the story. It became joke in Bioshock 2 "hey look, it's statue of the Thinker, and in minerva's den it's all about AI computers, get it, ah ah ah."

It's an interesting end.... it was actually really interesting..... but I can see Irrational is growing tried of this, and would like to try something new. This does feel really just the best way to just tie everything together.

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#18 Edited by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

@crithon said:

I enjoyed seeing Elizabeth learn to be without powers and to grow. That I think is the strongest elements about this game. And near the end where she's trying to rationalize everything especially when she's dealing with things are going way out of control were actually really exciting moment. It makes Elizabeth an exceptional character, even when things are down, not exactly like a super powered ending which is what I kept begging for especially during the Lobotomy.

I completely agree. Plot twists and story connecting is fine, but the growth and conclusion of Elizabeth's character is what really makes this DLC meaningful to me.

#19 Edited by Encephalon (1262 posts) -

Elisabeth is the Forrest Gump of Rapture.

I liked it, generally. Especially the way they reeled Elisabeth back from her almighty time-lord status and made her feel vulnerable again. Her arc throughout the two episodes was my major takeaway from this, much more than reliving major events from the franchise's history, neat as that stuff was. Seeing Elisabeth personally make Bioshock happen was fun, if a bit silly.

To address the Daisy stuff, it all struck me as unfairly revisionist. The reveal about her motives in this dlc seemed reactionary to criticism, and not in a way that felt organic.

#20 Edited by Mcfart (1625 posts) -

@ntm said:

@jeanluc said:

@jeust: Good catch. Thanks.

@ntm said:

Anyways, great DLC, though I didn't like that it pretty much made a full circle. Elizabeth talks about it not changing, and that she could only make a dent, and she didn't even do that.

Well she did. She is the reason Jack was used by Atlas, which lead to the events of Bioshock 1. Without Jack, no one would have saved the little sisters.

Yes, but that didn't change the beginning of Bioshock, only explained as to how it happened, therefore she didn't really make a dent in terms of a difference between what we already knew had happened. That's what I mean, it just made a full circle. You interpreted what I said in a different way.

She told Atalas how to control Jack. Though I agree that knowing that doesn't add much. Dat retcon.

I liked the DLC overall, but yeah, some sections (like the whole Daisy section) were just unneccessary. I personally didn't care about her in the original infinite, and still don't. The stealth was very meh, I generally don't like stealth games but before getting infinite invisibility it was too slow for my tastes (gotta melee dudes to conserve ammo) and after invisibility it was just broken (but w/e I hate stealth anyway)

I'm not too sure about the ending. As someone who never finished bioshock 1, it was okay I guess? Nice to see them wrap everything up. Sad that Eliz got totally screwed by Atlas..that lobotomy scene. I can handle seeing dudes get shot, by drills in/near eyes=no thanks

#21 Posted by gaminghooligan (1447 posts) -

Loved the development we got with Elizabeth and how it connected a lot of the hanging threads between Columbia and Rapture. Really though, it was the little moments that made this dlc great. Hearing Elizabeth sing on the radio, the guy playing the guitar and singing about Atlas, the way during the lobotomy scene Atlas loses his accent in frustration, and getting to see Booker and Elizabeth together in the elevator talking to daisy were some of the highlights.

The game play was fine, although the stealth system felt a little broken without the peeping tom. It had that awesome soundtrack (having the great pretender play behind Atlas was clever) and the dark original score was solid.

As far as the Daisy stuff goes, it was forced and I guess I should have seen it coming with the backlash around that character.

#22 Posted by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

As far as the Daisy stuff goes, it was forced and I guess I should have seen it coming with the backlash around that character.

I never realized there was a backlash to her. I had no problems with her.

#23 Posted by gaminghooligan (1447 posts) -

@jeanluc: it's been awhile back, but it was something about how she was one of the only strong female characters in the game and that she was turned evil or something

#24 Edited by Mcfart (1625 posts) -

@jeanluc said:

@gaminghooligan said:

As far as the Daisy stuff goes, it was forced and I guess I should have seen it coming with the backlash around that character.

I never realized there was a backlash to her. I had no problems with her.

Yeah I didn't know either. I thought the theme was that both sides (Comstock and Daisy) were both in a gray area. Both claim to be good, but both are dicks in their own way.

#25 Edited by crithon (3256 posts) -

@mcfart said:

@jeanluc said:

@gaminghooligan said:

As far as the Daisy stuff goes, it was forced and I guess I should have seen it coming with the backlash around that character.

I never realized there was a backlash to her. I had no problems with her.

Yeah I didn't know either. I thought the theme was that both sides (Comstock and Daisy) were both in a gray area. Both claim to be good, but both are dicks in their own way.

Yup Yup, actually I kept hear more people didn't like how there was no shades of gray with Comstock or Daisy. They they were too extremes on the scale. Even with audiologs on Daisy she comes off just bitter and angry really early on. Comstock you need to kinda do some leaps to believe he's something different then a religious zealot.

I don't feel that giving a little cameo really changes Daisy much, considering how her choice is "being part of a play" then actually being a fully fleshed out character.

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#26 Edited by Ghostiet (5279 posts) -

So Elizabeth from the main game is 100% dead, yes?

@jeanluc: it's been awhile back, but it was something about how she was one of the only strong female characters in the game and that she was turned evil or something

There was also a bit about her being the only developed black character existing only to be killed by the white Disney princess. It was mostly due to the fact that Infinite doesn't dwell upon the socio-political realities of Columbia at all.

#27 Posted by JeanLuc (3584 posts) -

@ghostiet said:

There was also a bit about her being the only developed black character existing only to be killed by the white Disney princess.

I feel like people who think that are looking a little do much into that.

#28 Edited by SlashDance (1815 posts) -

@jeanluc said:

@ghostiet said:

There was also a bit about her being the only developed black character existing only to be killed by the white Disney princess.

I feel like people who think that are looking a little do much into that.

That's putting it nicely. These people are actively searching for anything that could be viewed as racist/sexist/homophobic if you really overanalyze it without context, just for the satisfaction of pointing it out and appear more reasonable than the masses. Fuck them.

#29 Edited by NTM (7379 posts) -

@encephalon said:

The reveal about her motives in this dlc seemed reactionary to criticism, and not in a way that felt organic.

That's how I felt about it. It felt kind of tacked on.

#30 Posted by Ghostiet (5279 posts) -

@jeanluc said:

@ghostiet said:

There was also a bit about her being the only developed black character existing only to be killed by the white Disney princess.

I feel like people who think that are looking a little do much into that.

That's putting it nicely. These people are actively searching for anything that could be viewed as racist/sexist/homophobic if you really overanalyze it without context, just for the satisfaction of pointing it out and appear more reasonable than the masses. Fuck them.

Ain't saying that it wasn't reactionary and farfetched, just how it was.

#31 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

I watched this on YouTube instead, seemed quite cool and much more interesting than the main story.

I finished the original game but felt the gameplay was a step back after BioShock 2 found a great balance between good combat and sandbox encounters/environments, then Infinite pissed away all of that with corridor shooting, removal of ammo types and making traps much less useful because of the way most encounters played out.

Maybe I should've waited for a Steam sale and played it myself but the thought of playing Infinite again after the impression it gave me the first time around makes my brain switch off.

#32 Edited by AlKusanagi (920 posts) -

I want my own lobotomy so I can forget I ever played this DLC. I would have been far happier to have let the story end with Infinite's ending.

Poor Liz...

#33 Edited by gaminghooligan (1447 posts) -

@sooty: For what it's worth, the stealth aspects of the dlc actually made the traps feel useful again. I barely used them in the main story.

-------------------

Here's something I'm not sure about, was the doctor who injects Liz with the truth serum Doctor Steinman?

#34 Edited by crithon (3256 posts) -

@gaminghooligan: Hmmmmmmm, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure, because Steinman was close with Ryan. I'm not sure he'd be a part of Atlas' populist revolution.

Man, I love his first scene

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#35 Posted by Roomrunner (828 posts) -

Two questions.

1. Doesn't this DLC disprove Bioshock Infinite's original ending? The way I interpreted it was that Liz pinpointed and killed the Booker that chooses baptism, and kills him: thus preventing Columbia, the Lutece's quantum inventions, and Elizabeth (that's why they all disappear).

Apparently that isn't what happened? Liz only killed one Comstock there? If so, what's the point of that? If you can't end all Comstocks/Columbias, what's the point of killing any? Were all the Lizes that disappeared just branches from that timeline?

2. I understand that timelord Liz goes to Rapture to ensure the safety of Sally (which is kind of crazy, for the same reason as Comstock listed above. If you desperately want to save one, you must want to save all of them - a practical impossibility)

I understand timelord Liz loses her powers when she sees her own body... I don't understand why. Nor why she lost her memory in the beginning of the episode, why she needed the Luteses to bring her there instead of warping there, or why she no longer has a missing pinkie.

#36 Edited by gaminghooligan (1447 posts) -

@crithon: good point. I feel like I heard Atlas say something about not turning her into an angel or something like that when he was talking to the doctor and instantly thought of that scene from the beginning of Bioshock. That whole section leading to the boss fight with Steinman still creeps me out when I go back and play it, great stuff.

#37 Posted by crithon (3256 posts) -

@gaminghooligan: ahhhhh, okay..... hmmmm I can see what you mean, but that's also part of the fancy talk Atlas plays around with his outrageous accent.

Yeah, was replaying Bioshock 1, Steinman holds up really well. Especially early on before you meet him all his little displays of mutilated subject with angry scribbling on the wall over his disappointments.

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#38 Posted by SunBroZak (1116 posts) -

I liked it. The way it connects to the first game is really cool. Between the art direction and the characters, I felt it was on par with the things I liked about the Bioshock series. I remember spending a while on trying to work out the ending to Infinite, and while there are definitely some things that I don't quite understand in this dlc, I'm not going to worry over it. A nice ending to a memorable series.

#39 Posted by militantfreudian (111 posts) -

I thought the ending was interesting -- actually, very good, at least on paper. The execution, on the other hand, was subpar, especially when compared to what came before it. I'm referring to the the very last few cutscenes, particularly the retelling of Bioshock 1's ending and Elizabeth's death scene.

That aside, I really liked both episodes. Needless to say, the art direction was top-notch. The gameplay was surprisingly good and the excellent level design only made it better. The writing was solid as well, and the story, as a whole, was very well-paced. I thought the Paris sequence was spectacular, possibly the best part of the dlc. Lastly, Courtnee's acting was just superb. Burial at Sea is without a doubt the most ambitious dlc I've ever played.

#40 Posted by TheMasterDS (2066 posts) -

Really good bit of DLC. I liked the stealth element, it worked really well without slowing the game down too too much thanks in part to invisibility. Between this and inFamous having an invisible power I think an argument can be made for the introduction of snappy stealth that feels good. It's cool to watch a guy come up on you, go invisible, crouch run around him and knock his brains out. It feels really good. Very well done. The remaining companies making runny shooty stompy violence games should look at this an inFamous and say "Oh! Invisibility that allows you to hit dudes from behind or whatever real easy like is fun! Okay, we'll do that then."

As for the narrative elements it was very nice. Super well done, plenty of intrigue. Loved the opening in Paris, found the twists and reveals to be choice, enjoyed it all the way up to the end, etc. It's a very good swan song for Bioshock.

#41 Posted by themangalist (1735 posts) -

It's a really we'll crafted piece of content, definitely on par with Infinite... I'd love it if this was the first time I had my mind blown by Ken Levine. But it's not.

I can't believe I'm starting to think the fiction is faaaar up its own ass. Bioshock Infinite at least felt intricate, even when it might just be mumbo jumbo that fans somehow found a way to put everything together logically. By the third time, the first being Infinite and second being part 1, I feel tired of the twists and turns, that I could no longer keep track of which Liz or booker I'm playing as, which of them went through which events. I'm starting to think Ken Levine is a hack *gasp*...

#42 Posted by crithon (3256 posts) -

@themasterds: Invisibility is like running around and giving enemies wedgies when they least suspect it. I love it's the only vigor that isn't a trap on it's secondary use, and I love it's marketed in the sleazy nudie magazine sections. And Elizabeth reacts "I've never seen books like these where I come from?"

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#43 Posted by afrofools (1348 posts) -

I liked it. The ending was disappointing and predictable, but at least Irrational had the integrity to make it sad. I expected it to end the way it did, but still hoped for an ending like the one where she sees herself standing at the lighthouse to meet Jack and the little sisters. Maybe that's what does happen if you knock Daisy out.

The stealth gameplay was great. It is a bit difficult to describe all the nuances that make it good, so I will just say it is a huge step up, even more than it was in the first episode.

#44 Edited by C2C (855 posts) -

I didn't really like episode 2, but I think that this DLC will really depend on how much love you had for the first Bioshock. It did some really great things, but I just wasn't feeling it like I did episode 1.

I thought the stealth sections were broken, even without the peeping tom vigor. The AI was pretty dumb, and you can pop in and out of the vent systems and murder everyone within a large radius. Maybe its just me being spoiled by actual stealth games (MGS), but I was not enjoying the gameplay at all. I will say though, Irrational did a fantastic job of making me really afraid of messing with the big daddy. There were some other nitpicky issues but whatever, I didn't really come to this DLC for the gameplay.

Storywise, I didn't see where it was going but was really disappointed on the payoff of what the ace in the hole was (Even Elizabeth kinda was like "This is it?" when she finds it). I also have a really hard time believing Elizabeth could not figure out a better way of saving Sally, even with the limitation of constants and variables. That and the fact that Elizabeth fit in too well with the lead up to Bioshock 1 bums me out. The Daisy stuff was disappointing, but not a deal breaker. I also really didn't like Atlas being such an important part of the DLC, since his arc in Bioshock 1 was the thing that made me stop playing after the twist. There's probably an argument on how episode 2 nullifies the moral choice in Bioshock 1 (a game all about choice and the lack of it), but I'm not gonna make it since its just getting nitpicky on just thematic stuff.

Episode 2 was well made and I thought the other stuff like visual and audio direction were pretty good.Heck even the scenes taken in isolation were pretty good. I just wasn't feeling the gameplay or the story.

#45 Posted by TheMasterDS (2066 posts) -

@crithon: Oh yeah, one of my favorite bits of the DLC was how posters like The Farmer's Daughter was used. A+

#46 Posted by Meltdown547 (13 posts) -

Just finished it, really enjoyed it and thought it was a solid capstone for the series.

I just wanted to mention, I saw Ryan Davis was in the special thanks section of the credits.

#47 Edited by ZAPBoston (75 posts) -

I just finished the DLC tonight too. Infinite's original ending took the lore to a place that doesn't easily lend itself to further extensions without telling side stories in these worlds.

It met my expectations. The DLC story did pull at the heart strings and there was great atmosphere (when do these games not have awesome atmosphere). The gameplay mechanics around stealth did add a new flavor and seemed appropriate for the change from Booker to Elizabeth but I got tired of stealth towards the last 3rd. I was intentionally trying to play non-lethally just in case there was a story impact (there wasn't that I could see)

I guess the meaning of the ending was that A) the Good ending to Bioshock (1) was the canonical ending and B) Elizabeth saw that and saw that it was her role to start the process toward that ending. Like other comments here, I'm not sold that this was the only thing she could have done to save the innocent little sisters at Rapture given the vast powers she had at the end of Infinite.

I will just say that unlike Booker (the player controlled character in Infinite), Elizabeth, Jack (the PC in Bioshock), and Subject Delta (the PC in Bioshock 2, which I know was handled by a different 2K studio) are protagonists that were put into terrible situations by other's decisions to use them against their wills as weapons and had to define their humanity and agency through their subsequent decisions.

#48 Posted by Zlimness (555 posts) -

Just finished the DLC. I think Elizabeth is a great character, I love the atmosphere and overall this game just looks and sounds fantastic. I don't need much of a reason to go back to this awesome series. But I have some reservations regarding the story.

I don't buy into the ties between Bioshock 1 and Infinite this DLC presents. As far as I'm concerned, everything ends in Infinite. Columbia, Liz, Comstock, none of that could continue to exist. That's the whole point of Infinite's ending. End the cycle. Close the Comstock-timeline entirely. But in BaS, Liz with superpowers is still alive, even though she shouldn't exist.

Meanwhile, we learn that Suchong and Fink have closely collaborated, even though Columbia would have been erased from existence. Was this even necessary? In Infinite, we learn that the Fink looked into tears and stole future technology. In Bioshock 1, it seemed plausible that all of the crazy technology originated from Rapture, it being a high-tech city with no ethical restrictions and all.

To me, the connections between both games always seemed spiritual. Infinite will acknowledge that Bioshock exists, but in a distant universe. Liz just goes there in the end because she can. Because why not, she can do anything at that point. Why not blow the players mind while she's at it.

All in all, I'm glad I played the DLC. Just like the Last of Us DLC, Left Behind, most of the content in this package focuses on the interesting character from the main game. After a bit of thinking while writing this post, I think I'm gonna settle with this conclusion: If you absolutely wanted a universe where Infinite and Bioshock connects, this is it. But I can happily live in a world where they don't.

#49 Posted by madroxcide (66 posts) -

I just finished the DLC yesterday and I have to say I really really enjoyed it. You can either like it or not, think it's up it's own ass a bit and all that but the coolest thing about it is they always spark these great story discussions.

The meat of the DLC that has such great information I believe is in the small details. Learning about how the little sister/big daddy relationship was figured out. Learning a lot more about Songbird and how that all went a bit more. All the details of things where they shared information back and forth and what both worlds were learning from one another and all that.

I personally thought the stuff with including Daisy was very interesting. That's because in the original game I thought her total 180 was really really weird. That might just be me though. Which also got me thinking of a bit of irony. Although Daisy was fighting to have a revolution and for their freedom. In the end she still ended up a slave to the play sorta speak. Maybe I'm connecting dots that don't connect but was a weird thought while playing. I also enjoyed the little touch of being in that area and sneaking around everyone then coming back out and everyone is dead including that handyman given the fight that happened in the original infinite. This DLC was full of small touches like that which I enjoyed.

The thing I've loved about this series all along is it really makes you think about freedom and choice. It makes you look back on a lot too. Now after playing this and learning what we did about the little sisters and Elizabeth and all that I had this really crazy moment of remembering my first playthrough of the original Bioshock and how I almost decided to kill the little sisters and all that. Was a moment of almost feeling like a monster and thinking man they didn't really make that choice resonate then but they do now. That moment is probably more unique to me but that's something that just hit me during that. It's feelings/thoughts like that which made me absolutely love this DLC and the story in general.

It's not perfect but what they're trying to do is create a story that will make you think about it, and spark some type of feeling. For me at least they did that.

#50 Edited by SonicBoyster (353 posts) -

The DLC felt completely unnecessary. It didn't add anything to the story, it didn't develop Elizabeth, and it didn't give me more of Columbia. I got to play a less capable version of Booker that was losing her mind and constantly rambling nonsense at herself over a radio. I got to sit through a Saw-like torture sequence that served no purpose beyond being one of the most gratuitous plot devices I've experienced in a video game. I was forced through one of the silliest retcons of a character I've seen since George Lucas telling everybody Guido shot first. I got a game ending that let me experience a woman getting beaten to death with a wrench so that the first Bioshock could be just a little more convoluted than it already was. Staple onto all of that how we've already established via the original Bioshock Infinite ending that this is only one possible timeline of an infinite number of dimensions and the "progression" of Elizabeth's character into a powerless tool becomes all the more meaningless.

We already had our fanservice DLC for rapture, why couldn't we got one for Columbia? Saddens me we'll never get to see that piece of content.

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