I couldn't help but feel there was a sort of disconnect in the plot as you went through, in a way that just wasn't there for the first game. Now i'm aware that even in Bioshock 1 there are long stretches with no Andrew Ryan, and each zone has it's own "main guy", but even within that there felt like a certain cohesion to it. I can pin a lot of that down to the 'character' of Rapture being consistently there during the entirety of Bioshock, whereas Columbia really got stripped away as a location with a point later on. Just as an example of why I feel this way;

Basically from Finkton right up until the Sirens, Comstock has no involvement with the plot. That's like a third of the game, with the main antagonist entirely gone. Other antagonists, such as Daisy and Fink, are only relevant to the plot for a single area. Fink has what seems like two conversations with the player before his death, as does Daisy. Hell, look at Songbird. Not only was he a non-entity for almost the entire game, but he's only ever mentioned by Elizabeth. Lady Comstock is pretty much never mentioned outside of the Siren section. Slate is barely around outside of the Hall of Heroes. Even the Luteces disappear for huge stretches of the game.

The same also goes for plotpoints and themes of the game; remember the whole deism-of-the-founding-fathers thing? Remember how that is basically never mentioned again after the Hall of Heroes? In fact, basically the whole idea of what Columbia actually believes feels like it becomes this wishy-washy, barely-addressed concept after trans-dimensionalism comes into play. Does the Vox Revolution even matter to the story after Daisy's death?

I'm not saying this is a super-negative thing, I just think it's interesting. It makes the game feel very serialised. What do you guys think?

I agree, and noticed the same thing. That opening scene got me really excited for a game that would dig deep into Comstock's radical American religion. Then... it's gone. When I arrived at Fink's, I thought that maybe we could explore Marxism. Then... nothing. To me, these would have been far more interesting than the multiverse story that we were given.

I still enjoyed the story, just a little disappointed that these interesting and relevant ideas were nothing more than set pieces.

Intro is fucking amazing.

Middle of the game fluctuates a lot, the combat became just a frustration I had to deal with.

End is awesome, especially the rapture part.

I think the boss fights challenge Human Revolution in terms of bad and I thought the Songbird would be in the game more than he was, I really liked the design of that bird, and did anyone else think the Patriot robots were kind of terrifying?

The middle probably seems worse because it's so dull in comparison to the first few sections of the game, I was so disappointed it shifted from being so bright and colourful to another gloomy Unreal game.

@lackingsaint: I think you should play it again as you were wrong in a couple of your points in your little diatribe.

On the topic of Songbird I actually think it was kind of cool you never fought him. Made him all the more dangerous that you could presumably never win a confrontation with him. Unlike the Big Daddies who you killed scores of. It's frightening and the only way to kill it, far as the game presents, is to drown it.

I think there was a lot of commentary to be found all throughout the Fink Industries section. Frankly, it was as harsh and unsubtle a metaphorical criticism of fundamentalist capitalist ideals as I have ever seen. If the game had lost its track and careened its plot into some sort of platform for preaching different economic and societal philosophies it probably wouldn't fit in. Booker wants to take Elizabeth from point A to point B, first and foremost. I don't think the game could have gone much more into stuff like Marxism without losing track from that.

It's really hard to seriously comment on what would've or wouldn't have been though, since we're not the creators of the game. So I find this sort of discussion usually kinda weird.

That said, I disagree with the OP's point. Regarding the Songbird, since you couldn't destroy him like you could a Big Daddy, why should he show up as often? I think every time he showed up it was a huge "oh shit" moment, and if he came about to hunt you several times during the game that might have worn thin by the time he picks Brooker up near Comstock house. And Comstock didn't have to be there for that final third of the game. You were busy with Fink, Fitzroy and Lady Comstock. At many points you were learning about the man while he was absent from the immediate narrative. Why would he have to "be present" through that whole time? Would the story have benefited from this? I'm not understanding these complaints.

@snail: You're right. I'm in a tough situation. The story wasn't what I expected, and I had good reason to expect what I expected. However, what I got was still fantastic. Once I accept the story for what it is, I'll be fine.

Perhaps, though, the beauty of the game is that Irrational didn't make it a one trick pony. They certainly could have told the same multi-dimensional story with gritty soldiers in some near-future world like everyone else, but they chose to set the story in an American Exceptionalist dream world with a proletarian uprising. They don't shove those ideas in your face, but they are present, and we can still consider them.

I think the Handymen are replacements for Big Daddies which you kill quite a few of, not the Songbird.

This is a big part of the reason why I think the game is much more of a commentary than a story. As I mentioned in the other spoilerthread, I think the whole "then this happened and that happened" etc is sorta missing the entire point of the game (and frankly if you ask me the internal story of the game isn't that fascinating). The reason why they use the very strong imagery is because it allows them to say a lot with very little. The bold themes aren't in any way necessary for the core plot, so the only reason they would be included (other than just being for flash) would be that they are supposed to evoke something greater than just a story.

This is pretty much what I complained about in the main spoiler thread.

@lackingsaint:

YO Major spoilers in the spoiler thing. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! I am not joking.

Comstock had no involvent for a third of the story eh? Aren't Comstock and DeWitt the same person? Hehehe.

But as a serious response, given how everything shakes out at the end, I think there had to be a limit to Comstock's involvement. The game would have become either really boring or silly if everything had been somehow about this one guy.

@themasterds: I completely agree. By never engaging in a contrived boss battle where the character somehow figures out how to defeat the seemingly unstoppable force, I experienced more dread than I ever have in a horror game. It also made the death scene much more effective.

Mind pointing out what those are?

I would like to point out I actually totally agree, having Songbird not be a force you fight as a boss I think was a great idea, and i'm glad it's the case. What i'm not so keen on is the fact that Songbird not only disappears between the The Beach area and the Siren section, but is basically never mentioned during that space of time. You'd think this monster that's trying desperately to hunt down Elizabeth wouldn't only notice you again after you try and fly out of there.

To point them out would not be doing you any favors. I think you owe it to yourself to play through a 2nd time. Not to mention there are threads with great story dissection that would undoubtedly answer some of your questions. Although, that maybe isn't as fun as the "AH-HA" moment. I had some confusion as well but the replay rid me of it.

Out of curiosity, what did you expect of the story?

I loved how they treated Songbird. Every time he appeared it felt meaningful. The first sequence where he shows up took my breath away and I never lost that mix of terror and amazement in any of his subsequent appearances, even when it became clear that he wasn't a direct threat. I felt his scarcity kept him special -- and his participation in the final combat sequence resonated so well with me because of it.

I wish there was more of him, but I think that's just right. I should be left wishing there was more.

I can explain that! It died in Timeline A. Drowned shortly after it was introduced. Only when you went to timeline C did it end up alive again and only after its call was heard did it occur to Booker and Elizabeth that it yet lived in the new reality.

But Songbird wasn't hunting Elizabeth, at least not really, as it only ever showed up when called by one of Comstock's musical statue thingies.

Personally I had no problems with the tonal shifts during act 2 and 3. I actually felt the move into act 2 worked particularly well to highlight just how disparate the worlds were between the upper-class and the lower-class. It helps make Elizabeth the focal point as the divide is just as jarring to the player as it is to her.

@snail: I explained this in another topic, but I don't mind doing it again. I expected something more like the original game. The first game was about Rapture: the philosophy, the people, the golden age, and the downfall. Columbia is as richly developed a location as Rapture. I would say that the first hour or so set up my own expectations for the story. When you first arrive in Columbia, you are in what is essentially a church dedicated to a religion that worships America. When you leave, you see three of America's founding fathers, who are essentially canonized saints in this church. You hear about an angel appearing to George Washington, about The United States having lost its way, becoming "the Sodom below." Columbia is American Exceptionalism gone too far. I wanted the game to explore the idea of American Exceptionalism. Just as Rapture is a worst case scenario of Ayn Rand's Objectivism, I wanted Columbia to be a worst case scenario on American Exceptionalism. It's a relevant topic. Today, you hear people talking about a "Christian Nation." I wanted Columbia to be a deep exploration of this concept if it were to take over and drive the people. The mere fact that Columbia exists andis a well developed location is an exploration of this idea already... I just want more!

@lackingsaint: I'm curious, how many of the voxophones and kinetoscopes did you find? The voxophones specifically make things much clearer and really enhance the story. I've found 67, and I intend to find the rest when i play through in 1999 mode.

I played through this game in two days, spending much of that time stoned and drunk because that's how I enjoy my enjoyment, so I don't recall a lot of the more fluidity-related moments. For example, I remember them saying Daisy was dead and me going..."huh?" So I'm eager to start playing a second time (though I was under the assumption there was a New Game Plus option and I'm kind of amazed there isn't - I'm not so stoked about having to re-collect everything).

But one thing that REALLY bothered me - and honestly there were a quite a few of them - was that Elizabeth's wishy-washy nature towards Booker and her family/families, while totally justified for that character, never seemed justified within the actual narrative we were witnessing. She knocks you out and crash lands a zeppelin in the middle of the game, and then ten minutes later she's back in your party, eager to let you help her find a way out of the city again. Excuse me? Why exactly?

I feel like the ending caused me to add a rush of sentimentality to a lot of the other things that bothered me throughout the game, like the guitar scene (stuff like that tends to pull me out of the game, not into it), because then I saw a lot of the story as a father unknowingly taking his long-lost daughter on the most thrilling road trip ever. But there was a lot about the Elizabeth dynamic that I remember being a little confounded by; I definitely agree that the story as it was presented felt a little herky-jerky, though I disagree the game itself loses momentum. It remains thrilling to explore these worlds, and see the creative ways in which Irrational's amazing art team was able to re-use environments over and over.

I found the majority of them, but I do consistently seem to be hearing information second-hand I don't have any recollection of finding out myself. Hopefully my 1999 run i'm starting in a minute will help fill in some blanks!

@lackingsaint: Yeah, my best advice is to play the game at a turtle's pace; there is a lot to take in. Although, the 1999 mode seems like it will probably be pretty slow going as it is.