I think this is where Bioshock should end (SPOILERS)

#1 Posted by stoydell (58 posts) -

In case the title wasn't clear enough, there will be spoilers, most specifically discussion about the ending of Bioshock Infinite.

I feel like when Elizabeth pulled back the curtain on the "formula" for the Bioshock universe (the constants, "a city, a man, a lighthouse"), any games that try to follow this in this series will feel derivative. They tipped their hand, and I feel like leaving us with that revelation about the universe of Bioshock is where it should be left. Then again, maybe it'll give Ken and the Irrational Games team more opportunities to subvert our expectations and, in all likelihood, blow our minds again.

#2 Posted by StarvingGamer (8237 posts) -

Next game you play as a woman, with a camel, in the desert

#3 Posted by EXTomar (4727 posts) -

Constants and variables. Suggesting that it is impossible to repeat the formula without feeling derivative is a bit premature where you only need to look at one example: Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite.

#4 Posted by stoydell (58 posts) -

@extomar: I don't think I implied that I think it's impossible to make it original and fun, but I think if they had held back on that revelation (not that I'd suggest it), it couldn't hurt the next game. I think what I'm trying to say is that when we all went into Bioshock Infinite expecting it to have very little to do with the original Bioshock, thematically or narratively, the constants and variables revelations explained the entire universe to us when we thought there wasn't really a huge universe behind it all.

#5 Posted by BeachThunder (11933 posts) -

Next game you play as a woman, with a camel, in the desert

Wait, that would be kind of cool. But really, let's ditch the name "BioShock". They already did the whole 'the name "BioShock" just represents the feeling of the game and not the setting. No really!' joke. Irrational should move onto something else.

#6 Posted by Dagbiker (6976 posts) -

@stoydell said:

In case the title wasn't clear enough, there will be spoilers, most specifically discussion about the ending of Bioshock Infinite.

I feel like when Elizabeth pulled back the curtain on the "formula" for the Bioshock universe (the constants, "a city, a man, a lighthouse"), any games that try to follow this in this series will feel derivative. They tipped their hand, and I feel like leaving us with that revelation about the universe of Bioshock is where it should be left. Then again, maybe it'll give Ken and the Irrational Games team more opportunities to subvert our expectations and, in all likelihood, blow our minds again.

I think people are taking that line too literally. I think it is meant to be metaphorical.

I think the line was more about a guy ruling over people from an ivory tower then it was literal.

#7 Posted by EXTomar (4727 posts) -

In any event, if Levine wants to continue to make games about a man, a woman, a lighthouse and a city then go for it because his imagination is still crazy fertile.

#8 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4800 posts) -

@stoydell: You're assuming that there will be another BioShock. Unless 2K Marin or another satellite studio takes the reigns for BioShock 3/4 then I don't see that happening. The way BioShock Infinite ends is incredibly satisfying and makes future adventures moot in comparison. Once you've gone to the multiverse anything else would seem trite in comparison.

There's also the chance that they did it this way on purpose to "ruin" any potential for sequels, or it is just one epic meta-commentary on game sequels. Hard to say until Ken and crew start doling out the postmortem interviews.

All that being said I'm not sure I want a new BioShock. Infinite just closes the book on the trilogy in such an elegant way. We got three awesome games and now it feels done in the same way BioShock The First felt "done" at the end. I think 2K is wise enough to let the series go out on the biggest high-note an artist could ask for.

Still, I'd love to see what Irrational does next, if anything. Probably Nano-Shock, or something.

#9 Edited by stoydell (58 posts) -

@oldirtybearon: I agree with you on almost every point, so I don't know why you say I assume that there will be another Bioshock. I don't know if one is in development (and I hope not), because you're right, this ending is pretty perfect at tying together this universe (how ever small it is at the moment and however big it has the potential to be).

#10 Edited by I_Stay_Puft (3384 posts) -

I thought I read somewhere that they intended for this game to be stand alone during its early development and was not suppose to have no connection to the previous bioshock nor have bioshock in its name. Only reason why they added Bioshock to the title was to garner some familiarity with people who don't game much but know the the Bioshock franchise.

#11 Posted by TheManWithNoPlan (5492 posts) -

Even with the game pulling back the curtain on it's own formula, I would still love to play another Bioshock game in a different setting.

#12 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4800 posts) -

@stoydell: My bad, I misread your post. I thought you were taking a sequel to Infinite as a given.

Still, it was an incredible game, wasn't it?

#13 Edited by Rafaelfc (1348 posts) -

If they went deeper down the multiverse rabbit hole and made a crazy-ass story that borders on the non-sensical, i'd probably be on board.

#14 Posted by redbliss (647 posts) -

I think that is probably a concern that Irrational would probably know how to deal with. They already have 3 expansions planned, which I guess arent guaranteed to be story content, but if they are story content I would think that Irrational already has a plan of how they want to tell that story and that it will deal more with the overall Bioshock universe than the events happening in Columbia. I think it would be cool to get a story from some characters in an alternate universe of Columbia or something like that, but I agree that if they told a story that simply dealt with a single universe it wouldnt be as exciting.

#16 Posted by SSully (4186 posts) -

You feel like Elizabeth pulled back the curtain on the formula? I think it's funny that you worded this post as if there is some possibility that the curtain in fact, was not pulled back.

#17 Posted by stoydell (58 posts) -

@oldirtybearon: No doubt about that. People were not wrong about the game being better on a second playthrough, and on a harder difficulty. Foreshadowing like fuckin' crazy.

#18 Edited by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

When you went to Rapture near the end, I flipped shit. Everything instantly clicked as to why they are in the same 'universe' and all that. Once that happened, I was hoping to go through a lighthouse door into the space station in System Shock, but that didn't happen =(

I don't care if they repeat the same formula with a new Shock game, I know I'll enjoy it, but I don't know where they could set it. First game, space. Second game, Underwater city. Third game, city in the sky. A game underground would just feel exactly like Rapture and a game with the city on land would just be Swat 4. Maybe in some giant jungle city like some Robin Hood type shit where everyone is dealing with giant bulldozers (Big Bulldaddies). Nope nevermind.

@redbliss said:

I think that is probably a concern that Irrational would probably know how to deal with. They already have 3 expansions planned, which I guess arent guaranteed to be story content, but if they are story content I would think that Irrational already has a plan of how they want to tell that story and that it will deal more with the overall Bioshock universe than the events happening in Columbia. I think it would be cool to get a story from some characters in an alternate universe of Columbia or something like that, but I agree that if they told a story that simply dealt with a single universe it wouldnt be as exciting.

The ads for the season pass say "New stories" so whether it's about Dewitt or Elizabeth or not, there will be story stuff.

#19 Edited by Dagbiker (6976 posts) -

I just kind of like the whole flow of games playing off my ignorance of the game world, such as VLR and Spec Ops the Line. I hope the trend continues. Right now I would like a sequal, but thats probably because I just want more of this game.

This story is complete, But this story is also self contained, and left its self an out, by saying, and continuously saying that someone can be both dead and alive. Although I think it would be hard to beat a flying city, and multideminsional travel. It could happen, and having not cared about Bioshock before, I kind of hate that possibly the last one is the one I like, and is the most diffrent from the rest.

#20 Posted by Zephyr (29 posts) -

@oldirtybearon: Yeah that's what I figure the logical place is to go from here. The previous franchise was System Shock, so no reason why they can't make the next Shock game in a completely different universe/setting that has nothing to do with any previous game.

#21 Posted by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

That was such a great moment, but even though it was a great way to really wrap up the whole series, I like the idea of exploring another one of those lighthouses since the Bioshock Universe is so incredible.

#22 Posted by zenmastah (912 posts) -

I think its cool that Levine wrote it into the story of Infinite why there are so many similarities with Bioshock 1 and all, but i seriously doubt there will be another one with the premise of a lighthouse, a city and a man.

Or hes going for a trilogy, who knows..

Id like something different though.

#23 Edited by rebgav (1429 posts) -

Bioshock ended with Bioshock, regardless of the retread sequel and the branding on Infinite. If anything, I'd prefer to see Irrational get back to the more moody and atmospheric experience of the first game than going further down the "action-oriented shooter with rpg elements" progression path. I don't feel that their great environments and storytelling need to be broken up with wholesale slaughter every five minutes. I'd like to see them retain what they do well and support it with gameplay mechanics which fit the experience.

#24 Edited by OurSin_360 (885 posts) -

Yeah, they can't make another one, and probably won't given the costs but remember they didn't even want to make a sequel which is why another studio did that one and it wasn't as well accepted. So if it gets made i doubt it will be irrational doing it

#25 Posted by Zlimness (555 posts) -

@rebgav said:

Bioshock ended with Bioshock, regardless of the retread sequel and the branding on Infinite. If anything, I'd prefer to see Irrational get back to the more moody and atmospheric experience of the first game than going further down the "action-oriented shooter with rpg elements" progression path. I don't feel that their great environments and storytelling need to be broken up with wholesale slaughter every five minutes. I'd like to see them retain what they do well and support it with gameplay mechanics which fit the experience.

I really want Levine to do something other than a FPS next time. Even if I love the weird combat in the Bioshock games, it was never more apparent than in Bioshock Infinite that the medium constrains his ability to tell a story without compromise. The sort of expectations that come with shooters did this game no favors when it came to pacing the story out evenly. As you point out, it didn't need to be broken up with combat so often. But if you make a shooter, that's what people expect. That's what I expected at least, and I got that. But having finished it, I can't help but think it was the most insignificant part of the game.

Listening to some of the behind the scenes interviews, it's crazy to hear they considered cutting out Elizabeth because she didn't work. We could have ended up with something far less than what we got, but someone stood their ground and made it work anyway. A bit of creative challenge is always a good thing, but I want to the see the team at Irrational have more freedom to not have to make a choice like that again. If that means dropping the shooting entirely in the future, then fine by me. The story, setting and characters will ultimately ensure that Bioshock Infinite will outlive almost every FPS I have played to this point.

#26 Posted by Drakoji (222 posts) -

I'd love to see Ken Levine work on a new Freedom Force ...

Or something akin to that.

#27 Posted by psylah (2177 posts) -

Neuroshock.

Fall 2016.

#28 Edited by EXTomar (4727 posts) -

There are ideas in post-modernism I think Levine could try to tackle. For instance a Bill Gates kind of character who fervently evangelizes technology as the thing that solves everything but blind to the drawbacks would be completely in line with the themes in Bioshock.

#29 Posted by MildMolasses (3221 posts) -

I think the major issue with a new Bioshock would be that we would be scrutinizing the entire game in such a way that we wouldn't enjoy it. In our effort to see where the constants line up, we would be missing the experience for its own merits. Although that could work in its favour too, where at the end the curtain was pulled back to reveal that he was telling a different story entirely. I would worry that the games would get to meta at some point

#30 Edited by Brodehouse (9949 posts) -

The only way BioShock or this style of game 'ends' is if Irrational stops existing. They've been making this game for 20 years now between System Shock and BioShock. They're going to keep making this game until they don't exist. Just because it'll be called DinoShock or ZombieShock is going to mean its not going to be the same game Irrational has always made.

Also, Criterion's next game will have cars, id's will be a shooter from the first person, and BioWare's next game will have some threat destroy the first area forcing you to go to four other places to collect party members/armies/evidence.

#31 Posted by Vinny_Says (5709 posts) -

SWAT 5 bitches!

or...

BioSWAT. Just combine the two into something completely insane.

#32 Edited by JasonR86 (9707 posts) -

Next game you play as a woman, with a camel, in the desert

Who happens upon a lighthouse.

I think this game feels like a good ending to the Bioshock franchise as well. But I thought that with Bioshock 1 too. So what the fuck do I know?

#33 Posted by TheMasterDS (2066 posts) -

I think saying Bioshock should end here is really silly when they've just opened the door to give themselves licence to do whatever they want with the franchise going forward so long as they have a crazy city, a crazy culture and some big daddies. Honestly, now that they have an in universe excuse to reimagine the universe with every game it's not preferable to revisiting Rapture anymore?

#34 Posted by Hunkulese (2723 posts) -

I don't really think they pulled back the curtain. Did you not notice that both games had a city and a tyrannical leader? If they hadn't pointed that out it would have been fine to do it again?

#35 Edited by sup909 (159 posts) -

If Zelda can get away with it for the past 20 years, I don't see why Bioshock cannot and still be incredible.

#36 Posted by TheArchitect (5 posts) -

I'd be stunned if there were more Bioshock games after this. Infinite's ending represents every possible combination of man/lighthouse/city that we (both gamers and developers) could imagine. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility. Ken Levine said in an interview, in a clever tongue-in-cheek nod to the ending, that Infinite represents every game in his head that can't be digitally translated.

#37 Posted by JZ (2125 posts) -

Booker goes through a portal ends up in Greece and becomes Kratos. Then zeus is actually a different booker.

#38 Posted by kishinfoulux (2307 posts) -

On one hand if this is the final Bioshock they went out with a fucking bang. Hell if this is Levine's last game then he went out on top of the mountain. You probably can't do the whole "here's another cool city thing" again. But now you have the infinite possibilities (no pun intended) of making a game where you just hop from world to world, timeline to timeline, and reality to reality. Imagine instead of just exploring A Rapture or A Columbia you're exploring several of these places on some zany time/space hopping adventure. It can be done, but it'll be a hell of a trick to pull it off. Also it'd be incredibly difficult to make a twist like that again when everyone will be looking for it.

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