This game got a ton of new players because people didn't exactly know what it was and the ps4 is kinda scarce for games so I'm once again seeing the discussions I saw a lot of back when the original game came out. People calling souls fans the worst fans because they just tell people they just suck at the game when they complain. And while I think sometimes they say that unnecessarily. Aren't they kind of right In a lot of situations?

I've been going through new souls players thoughts of the game, and all that's coming from them is that the game is hard only because it's cheap, and that is objectively false. You can watch these people play and see a million things they are doing wrong while they call it cheap.

Yeah, the fan base can be a little annoying with their "git gud scrub" shit, but really, they do have a point when there are so many new players calling it shit and cheap when these games being cheap is pretty factually incorrect. Them calling it bad because it's being "cheap" is in fact them just not being good at the game.

You can dislike it for any other reasons, and there are a ton of valid reasons to dislike these games, but them being apparently cheap isn't one of them yet it's still the most common complaint I've seen from people new to this series. And is the likely reason fans are usually so hostile.

I've never seen a Souls fan just tell somebody they suck. If there's one thing we love, it's talking tactics, and any excuse to do so is a good excuse.

These games aren't for everybody.

There are definitely cheap situations due to unintended crap like an enemy hitting through a wall or you getting caught on geometry but yeah the game is meticulously designed to not be cheap at all.

Also if I see someone having trouble with a thing, I help them and encourage them they can do it. I don't see anyone other than stupid youtube commentors just flat out saying someone sucks

Yeah well, not much that can be done when most of those people are used to playing stuff like AC where you have to try really really hard to actually die or fail a mission.... anything involving a higher level of skill and patience will immediately be labeled cheap and unfair.

The two things aren't mutually exclusive. You can get good at cheap games, and cheap games usually require that you do so as well. What makes a game cheap or not is if it contiuously tries to fuck you over in unexpected ways, and to that respect the Souls games walk a pretty tight line (even more with Bloodbornes forced playstyle). The question is really how do you expect people to get good at the game? 'cuz if it's just a matter of trial and error, then yes the game is cheap.

This game feel so much easier then the Souls games, really the only difficulty i ever have with the game is when I can't move out of the way because there is something in the environment blocking me from doing so.

This game world just seems so much more dense then the others, which also too me makes it feel a lot more linear. It's not linear, don't get me wrong here, but it just feels like here is the path you are to follow. You can't move much while on that path though because there is just random objects blocking you in.

Ya. Don't get me wrong. I think some of the things about Souls games is that they're mechanically clumsy and that's part of the reason a lot of people get frustrated. It's absolutely the case with myself. I have a friend I would vent to whenever I got killed, and got increasingly frustrated with what seemed like a week of trying to kill Ornstein and Smough. That's part of the game design, though. Or lack of design. Whatever. It's hard to really say. Souls games are refined enough to be designed in this way, but some would argue they just cut development short and people liked how punishing it was, so they left it like that.

Camera issues was my second biggest gripe with Souls, only being bested by my issue with how bad the dodge/roll animation was at actually doing what it's supposed to do. But again, it's more about the player getting the timing right, and not so much the games fault. That's the design of the game and it's up to the player to adjust, and to perfect their own timings. With Bloodborne, the dodge/roll mechanic seems WAAY more forgiving, with what seems like at least triple the amount frames of invincibility. If people are complaining about Bloodborne then they should just not play difficult video games.

I feel like there is an unjustifiable amount of outcry with game difficulty lately (last couple of years). Ya know...because games these days aren't all that challenging, but that's changing. folks would complain about how every game these days holds their hand and the video games of yesteryear are all but extinct. Most recently, a lot of people cry about Hotline Miami 2 instead of just figuring out how to actually play the game better than they are. I feel like the Hotline Miami 2 reviews aren't accurate, because people entered the game with a preconcieved notion of how to play it. Expecting to play it a specific way, if you will.

They never considered that you can't just rush into rooms full of guys like the first game and were punished over and over again without actually figuring out how to go about approaching each level. Limiting resources. Seriously though, you can still play as Tony and fuck people up. People complain about how cheap it is for enemies with guns to kill you from off screen locals in HLM2, but the short and thick of it is you are able to scout ahead of time with the look feature and the lock on target features that were built into the first game.

Yea, the Souls games are cheap to the uninitiated. But once you figure out how the game is supposed to work, you realize you're not an immortal character like most video games. You can and will die, and it's up to the player to prevent it from happening. The game is the game, and it will always be up to the player to be the game master.

@krullban: I've played through all of them up till this point and Bloodborne certainly has it's fair share of cheap moments. I don't think many of them are intentional but rather resulting from lack of polish that is now somewhat synonymous with From Software. The boss design does actually feel a little cheap and is further hindered by their inability to develop a good camera for these games. It's nothing that returning Souls players can't handle but to newcomers I can definitely see how some of this stuff might feel incredibly jarring. If every boss in Demons Souls was a variation of Flamelurker I wouldn't be very happy either.

When I generally see talk of the Souls games (usually forums), I see a massive amount of old hands clambering to support new players. More so than most any other game I can think of, to be honest. I think a lot of that comes down to the Souls crowd being really into Souls games, and are super keen to get as many people on board as possible. Again, more so than most any other game I can think of.

I think the problem comes when a person criticises the game (likely inaccurately) and is stating their dislike with unwavering finality. At that point the keen old hands (or indeed, just plain trolls that don't care either way) realise their attempt at covert conversion to The Way of the Soulswill fail and immediately play the 'it's because you're shit' (read: 'git gud') card and have nothing more to say on the topic.

Some people just can't accept feeling like they are wrong about something. Getting tips or "corrections" usually creates that feeling. It's kind of a bummer really, most posts I see when someone complains is just people trying to help.

Though I bet our forums are quite different than many other sources of Souls comments.

Actually, there are some features in here that can be called cheap. For instance, enemies that are down are immune to damage. You need to wait for them to get up before you are able to damage them again. However, when I'm down, they can continue to damage me. Often resulting in death. It's not that cheap, but different rules for player and NPC isn't the most pure design. Similarly, enemies carry infinite Quicksilver Bullets. Again, not that cheap, but kinda. Especially the NPC invaders that keep using Quicksilver ever 2 seconds are annoying. It's a finite resource for a reason. If you could spam it all day, it's too powerful. But that's exactly what those invaders do.

Not that I think the game is cheap overall. But each Souls game had some questionable stuff like this in it. It's okay to recognize that. I think the only one where fans were recognizing it was DSII's stamina system.

Going to the midnight release at gamestop was interesting as I was the only person there who seemed to be a hardcore souls fan (I use that term loosely, but I have beaten the past three games). Conversing with them it seems like a lot of them were under the impression that this was supposed to be easier and a good entry point to new players.

If you're going to start playing souls, my recommendation is still to start with Dark Souls over Bloodborne. Bloodborne is really hard, it took me a good five hours just to get wired into its combat system and be effective.

I had similar problems with old Souls game as well. The enemies being able to attack through geometry, getting hit on the ground, DS2's enemies having broken hitboxes, etc. They all are kind of jacked in some way.

I refuse to believe you haven't encountered this. All I ever see from legit questions asked is "herp derp git gud".

For some reason I group together the people who say the Souls games are "Too hard" or "Cheap" with the people who refuse to watch subtitled anime because they "Don't want to read a TV show".

No idea if that is a fair comparison, but I can't help but think those groups of people are similarly distasteful in some fashion, couldn't tell you how though.

...What was this thread about again?

Don't know about BB but from what I've played of DS, there are definitely "surprise, there's an enemy behind this wall and now you're dead" or "spikes out of the grass!! Because no indication and why not!" moments. That's cheap, but that's also the part of the point of the game. The devs have said before that they don't want the player to ever feel safe. These situations tought me to always be hyperaware. I think that traps that literally have no slight hint are definitely cheap because if the only way to know its there is to die to it, yeah, that's cheap. But enemy placement is always just a matter of being hyper aware because you can always predict where they're going to be.

Im prob 12 hours or so in, level 37ish. Really havent seen anything that is cheap. While the combat isnt harder then the past games, the game is much easier due to the amount of health potions. Unless your doing a boss, or Chalice dungeon they give you a shit ton almost making the game too easy.

@hypnotoadbrwowrowrow: but these cheap traps are also counteracted by notes and bloodstains which no one ever seems to talk about when complaining about this stuff.

@krullban: So, yeah, like everyone else says, this is new player syndrome. None of them were quite prepared for what they were getting into and they reacted accordingly. Though, the "Souls" tempering pot will likely spit out a few loyal fans who "get" the series. Definitely not a game for everyone.

On a related note, I'd love to see their reactions to Yurt's shenanigans.

This didn't used to be the case. The "fanbase" got far worse around 3/4 into DaS' lifespan. The memes got to it and people became utter assholes. I guess it's the price of popularity but I want to make clear that the people who say stuff like "git gud" never have a point. Ever.

Bless their feeble little hearts.

@hypnotoadbrwowrowrow: The constant tension is one of the key elements of the series I think. And it's achieved via stuff like that. The difference is whether the player learns from that and knows the game style is to play dirty, or they just continue blindly running around like an oaf.

You must have a complete distrust with the games and I practically crawl through them. I'm swinging the camera around blind corners. If I see an item, I assume its bait into an ambush. I feel unsafe on weak looking wooden floors and watch my footing. Odd looking shapes on walls could be a place where arrows shoot from. Liquids might be poison, flammable, muck that slows you down, or hell, just a gateway you fall into that leads to some other crazy thing. A hanging rope or chain might be able to be cut. The sound of footsteps and breathing can tell me where something might be, what type of thing it is, and how big it is. Sometimes I lock up and stare at something because it looks like it could be a monster and then it ends up just being a rock or a pot. Bloodborne uses smoke and fog to hide things from you.

All these little details keep you on the edge of your seat and with a constant focus. Pretty much every detail in these games is done with a purpose. Some people just don't understand this and don't want to take the time to either and in the end they just walk around complaining about how cheap the game is. Meanwhile, the player is able to cheese or "cheap" the game just as much. It's all part of it, use the geometry, cliffs, trees, traps etc to kill the monsters in "cheap" ways. As long as you get to the end, whether that is with a sword and shield, co-op buddies, or butt naked karate chopping, if you make it to the end then you've triumphed over the game and your own self-doubt.

@secondpersonshooter: touche! You are 100% right.

Should a game be called cheap because of technical flaws like bad camera or possibility of getting stuck in geometry? I always thought that a game feels cheap because of design choices that, for example, give enemies an unfair advantage (like the stuff @zevvion mentioned) to make the game more difficult.

@seikenfreak: I could not have said it better myself. The one who survives is not the strongest or the fastest, its the one who is able to adapt the quickest, and when I started to play the Souls games for the first time I felt the same way any new player felt; cheated.

But then I started to play the game differently. Watching corners, taking my time, knowing when to fight and when not to, thinking up strategies and what Items to use for bosses, listening and looking closely at the environments. Once I got those (and some other) things down the souls series is one of the best and most satisfying games I have ever played. I would take a Souls game over an Assassins creed, Call of duty, God of War, (add mainstream title here) game any day.