And amplify shields too in general. From the latest patch notes on steam:

- Fixed bug causing Tediore reloads to get Amplify shield damage bonuses for each round remaining in the clip.
- Amplify damage from Amplify Shields is now divided among all projectiles fired from a single shot.
- Balance adjustments to "The Bee":
+ Increased Recharge Delay
+ Significantly increased Recharge Rate
+ Reduced Amplify damage

Fun times are over, I guess. I suppose it had to happen eventually. A tediore reload on a lvl 50 SMG with a lvl 46 bee was doing about a million damage for me based on Marcus' dummy thing. Terramorphus was going down in less than a minute, and the Warrior wasn't even funny. But who knows what the next DLC (which allegedly hits either this month or the next) will bring?

Shit was busted.

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

...ouch.

So now it'll take even longer to get anything of use, considering the atrocious drop rates.

@dudeglove said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

...ouch.

Boom.

@Cloudenvy said:

@dudeglove said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

...ouch.

Boom.

So is the bee still worth using with a very high firerate weapon?

Honestly, I'm just a few million away from hitting level 50 and was going to start farming this, but the timing of the patch just makes me wanna drop the game and pick up blops2.

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

Talk about buyer's remorse.

It'd be awesome if they would get the Badass rank glitch taken care of...

I still don't understand what the point of patching overpowered items in a co-op game is. Borderlands 2 is far from competitive and you're only making things easier for yourself if you choose to grind all these out.

Wish they didn't nerf it. The worst parts of Borderlands are when you have to slog through the areas that require you to kill everything to progress, and the bee made them tolerable.

@dudeglove said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@dudeglove said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

...ouch.

Boom.

The Bee was the only lvl 50 legendary I managed to find with those ridiculously low drop rates and now they nerfed it too, fucking awesome...

@Cloudenvy said:

@dudeglove said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

...ouch.

Boom.

He's not wrong.

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

That's coming with the next round of DLC I believe...

Never even got the Bee to see what the big deal was, so I guess I have nothing to really be disappointed over. 
 
I would like the Phalanx Shield on the turret to be patched so that it isn't completely useless, though.

This is good. (coming from someone who used the shit out of the Bee)

They can finally start designing bosses around actual game balance, rather then around an OP item. Both of the 2 extra DLC uber bosses had mechanics introduced designed specifically around preventing the sheer firepower of the Bee, forcing even more exploitative behavior and/or builds/tactics. The Bee actually negatively affected game balance because they were forced to take it's power into account, thus making standard dmg/life ratios even less relevant.

@Morbid_Coffee: See my above explanation as to why the Bee nerf was necessary.

@psylah said:

Shit was busted.

Yep.

@OneKillWonder_ said:

Never even got the Bee to see what the big deal was, so I guess I have nothing to really be disappointed over.

Amp shields usually give you one powerful shot at a cost of a partial shield drain, and then you have to wait for the shield to recharge to get the bonus again. The Bee is special in that it has/had no shield drain and extremely high amp damage (albeit low shields as a trade off), and in addition all amp damage applied to every single bullet and - most importantly - pellet in a shotgun blast. The legendary conference call shotgun has/had some weird property whereby the pellets increased in number the further it traveled (I think), and pairing it with the bee meant every single one of those pellets was given the same amount of damage from the bee shield, which went into the millions.

@Tennmuerti said:

This is good. (coming from someone who used the shit out of the Bee)

They can finally start designing bosses around actual game balance, rather then around an OP item. Both of the 2 extra DLC uber bosses had mechanics introduced designed specifically around preventing the sheer firepower of the Bee, forcing even more exploitative behavior and/or builds/tactics. The Bee actually negatively affected game balance because they were forced to take it's power into account, thusaking standard dmg/life ratios even less relevant.

@Morbid_Coffee: See my above explanation as to why the Bee nerf was necessary.

I mostly agree with this. I wish there was more gradation in the gun selection, though. Everybody is running around with the same few weapons (CC, Volcano, Babymaker, basically). I hope they introduce something to make lower-tier weapons more desirable.

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

Coming from a dude with a DOA 5 picture? I'm not sayin'... just sayin'.

Anyway, the bee was busted so I'm glad to see a little end-game balance. Really haven't put too much time into the game after beating it though, just way too many games to play right now.

@MikkaQ: DOA over Bore-derlands any day of the week.

@dudeglove said:

@OneKillWonder_ said:

Never even got the Bee to see what the big deal was, so I guess I have nothing to really be disappointed over.

Amp shields usually give you one powerful shot at a cost of a partial shield drain, and then you have to wait for the shield to recharge to get the bonus again. The Bee is special in that it has/had no shield drain and extremely high amp damage (albeit low shields as a trade off), and in addition all amp damage applied to every single bullet and - most importantly - pellet in a shotgun blast. The legendary conference call shotgun has/had some weird property whereby the pellets increased in number the further it traveled (I think), and pairing it with the bee meant every single one of those pellets was given the same amount of damage from the bee shield, which went into the millions.

To add to this:

The Bee was overpowered with other items too. Conference Call was really just one of the more well suited weapons for it. The bullets did not multiply but they did "ricoche" a bit, basically spread out from the initial point of impact perpendicularly in both directions too (that could potentially also hit). It also has a high fire rate for a shotty, decent clip, and reduced spread with every shot. A combination of factors that made it so suitable. But the Bee synergised with a lot of other weapons too.

The damage Bee adds was also incredibly high. Around 40-50,000 damage per projectile (bullet/pellet). This in contrast when most gun at highest level are balanced at around 10-15k per shot on the high end. A basic shotgun blast became 300,000-1,000,000 in total damage numbers per shot.

And all of this like @dudeglove: mentioned without draining your shields (like other aplify shields do), meaning this damage was added to every shot not just the first one.

It was possible to kill the uber raid bosses like Terramorphous in under a minute without taking any dmg. They became 0 challange.

@Demoskinos said:

@MikkaQ: DOA over Bore-derlands any day of the week.

DOA? More like Dead on Arrival.

BOOOOOOM!

Ooooh snap!

..nah not as fun without the Montel Williams crowd backing you up.

@MikkaQ: DOA over Bore-derlands any day of the week.

This also increased the HP of Terra and a few other bosses. So have fun slogging through them to be rewarded by a shower of whites and greens.

I can't understand how they haven't done anything to drop rates; they are fucking piss poor.

@joshthebear said:

This also increased the HP of Terra and a few other bosses. So have fun slogging through them to be rewarded by a shower of whites and greens. I can't understand how they haven't done anything to drop rates; they are fucking piss poor.

Yeah. I farmed The Warrior for about an hour and a half, two hours with the BM/Bee combo. Must have run it at least 50 times, but got zer0 orange items from it. Then I said fuck it, I'm done with this character and don't want a CC.

Without The Bee and better loot tables, and higher health, I can't see myself farming jack shit in the future.

this is why i hate the vocal minority known as the internet

@hbkdx12 said:

this is why i hate the vocal minority known as the internet

Why exactly?

I have a thing for 'S' ranking games, but despite buying the season pass I haven't had any desire to start on the DLC, even with my CC and Bee.

I play solo anyway, so it's not like I have to download the update, but now my lack of desire is even lower.

Maybe I'll just wait a year or so to play the DLC like I did with Borderlands 1.

@JoeyRavn said:

@joshthebear said:

This also increased the HP of Terra and a few other bosses. So have fun slogging through them to be rewarded by a shower of whites and greens. I can't understand how they haven't done anything to drop rates; they are fucking piss poor.

Yeah. I farmed The Warrior for about an hour and a half, two hours with the BM/Bee combo. Must have run it at least 50 times, but got zer0 orange items from it. Then I said fuck it, I'm done with this character and don't want a CC.

Without The Bee and better loot tables, and higher health, I can't see myself farming jack shit in the future.

Seriously. The drop rates are goddamn horrid (especially for The Warrior), even with the vault hunter relic. Makes farming a pain in the ass.

@zombiebigfoot: I think it shows how much you've actually dedicated to farming if you think that the Vault Hunter Relic affects legendary drops as it only changes how often greens drops. Most people who whine about drop rates are just people who want everything without any actual effort. Why don't you just ask someone to dupe the items for you or use a program to modify your save game so you can get what you want if the drops rates are so shitty?

Bee nerf was a good thing and definitely needed. Now instead of being The Shield it's just one of the shields which is how it's supposed to be and to all people who cry over their easy-mode-shield taken away, how about you start actually playing the game now rather than just holding down the shoot button and watching everything die. I got the Bee on my first Hellquist kill at lvl. 30ish, beat all the bosses after that in a few seconds and the threw it away because it was fucking dumb how broken it was. And like Tenmuerti said, now Gearbox can actually start designing shit without worrying about the Bee just ruining their work.

Did they fix they stupid drop rates?

They need to add a buff for level cap chars much life the Nephilim (sp) ranks in Diablo 3 and other games. Storm through a level, kill so many Super Badass+ to increase your luck multiplier(pissing off Goliaths is fun), by so much. Its not a MMO, its a co-op shooter, grinding a boss multiple hours for a gun is stupid. Plus I'd much rather play through some favourite areas/actual content with friends and increase our luck multiplier, than farm a boss multiple times. Obviously you'll go kill who ever has your drop once your done.

A part of the problem to the Bee is the boss fights, they're crappy.

In a game that had so many giant-ass robots I'm surprised there isn't a boss one (like Saturn) I'd like to see a Thunder Force/Shmup multi layer boss.

Shoot arm armor panel off - shoot arms/guns off - then legs.. chest.. Each time the robot changes form/attack. The armor panels you blew off can be the only way to avoid certain attacks. If you die you have to run an underground gauntlet to get back to the fight. Once you do hit the button to get back to the arena, you also release high armor repair bots, which can patch bits of him up.

Eventually the pilot is a midget with a 10mil shield 1 Hp and a lvl1 pistol, who runs around screaming until you kill him.

Basically I want them to lose some of the MMO mentality and make the endgame some repeatable dumb fun. Cause right now Mr Gee isn't worth your time and if you've got to grind to get the gun you want I'd rather have The Bee, or not play until DLC.

@hbkdx12:

Did you not read my other post in this thread as to why the unbalance of the Bee was bad?

It was actually reducing player options and negatively affecting the rest of game design as was evident in the DLC. It's totally fine if this item was ignored by Gearbox, but it wasn't they had to actually introduce mechanics to counter the Bee one single item, because at the endgame almost everyone was using it. As a net result all other options became inferior and ineffective for people. Making the game worse, regardless of mp/sp.

Did they use it to farm and beat terramorphus in under a minute? Maybe, maybe not (....probably not)

Very much yes actually. There are youtube videos. And I've done it myself. It completely trivialized what was supposed to be a challenge, the raid boss could be killed before he got a single blow in.

I mean think about it, with all loot in the game people have gone batshit crazy over 1 shield and how it synergies with some of the weapons? How many times have we all come across a bad shield/loot and tossed it with no regard? Countless. Hell, how many times have you come across GOOD loot and ultimately tossed it because it didn't favor your playstyle? Plenty i'm sure. Again, in a game that's about options and player choice, why is the bee being crucified when at no point is it ever ever forced upon anybody to use whether they want to or not?

That's exactly the point. The Bee is so unbalanced that everyone went batshit over it. It completely eclipses all other options, and not by a little, or by a factor of 2 or something, but exponentially, completely changing the damage output formula. Resulting in 2 DLC bosses that had to counter that, making all normal gear completely useless.

It's crucified because it removed choice. For both players and developers.

Because for a game that's about giving you various options to play how you want to play, It bugs me that there are people, who just because they don't like the bee for whatever reason, have brought about an (unecessary) change for people who did enjoy the bee and how it performed.

Ultimately the game designers themselves have the final say. And they deemed it necessary enough to nerf it. (and there were plenty of people who likewise wanted to keep the Bee as is)

If you reference them when designers acknowledged it and allowed it, complaining when they made the decision to adjust it is hypocritical at best.

@Tennmuerti: Having absolutely no idea what the Bee is and the damage in terms of the late-game it carries, it seems a bit silly to have such a gun where the challenge of the final boss is removed from play.

I've always thought that the Borderlands 2's philosophy on gameplay was to really mix up the guns and thereby increasing the variety of play styles. I think it really hampers the game if every player simply defaulted to the emperically strongest weapon in the game. I would guess that a subset of players would be furious with any nerf, as it strips them of power they had or simply due to lower numbers.

However, I will admit it is not my place to say how I feel about this. Like I said, I have little idea and even less initiative to actually find out what this gun actually is as I don't personally see the appeal of going up to level 50 to simply get more loot. The only incentive I can see to play the game at such a high level is the challenge of True Vault Hunter mode and getting more interesting, high powered guns. I can see why you would and it's more than possible that I am missing vital element, but when I finished the campaign, I certainly didn't really want to sink more time into it. Of course, I am more than willing to play my second character with low level friends, but Borderlands 2 was an alright game that didn't make me physically unwell unlike the first and I had my fill. I have no real strong desire to play longer or to reach the level cap.

@Cloudenvy said:

@dudeglove said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

...ouch.

Boom.

Bewm.

@Cloudenvy said:

@dudeglove said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

...ouch.

Boom.

Bewm.

@hbkdx12:

Did you not read my other post in this thread as to why the unbalance of the Bee was bad?

It was actually reducing player options and negatively affecting the rest of game design as was evident in the DLC. It's totally fine if this item was ignored by Gearbox, but it wasn't they had to actually introduce mechanics to counter the Bee one single item, because at the endgame almost everyone was using it. As a net result all other options became inferior and ineffective for people. Making the game worse, regardless of mp/sp.

Did they use it to farm and beat terramorphus in under a minute? Maybe, maybe not (....probably not)

Very much yes actually. There are youtube videos. And I've done it myself. It completely trivialized what was supposed to be a challenge, the raid boss could be killed before he got a single blow in.

I mean think about it, with all loot in the game people have gone batshit crazy over 1 shield and how it synergies with some of the weapons? How many times have we all come across a bad shield/loot and tossed it with no regard? Countless. Hell, how many times have you come across GOOD loot and ultimately tossed it because it didn't favor your playstyle? Plenty i'm sure. Again, in a game that's about options and player choice, why is the bee being crucified when at no point is it ever ever forced upon anybody to use whether they want to or not?

That's exactly the point. The Bee is so unbalanced that everyone went batshit over it. It completely eclipses all other options, and not by a little, or by a factor of 2 or something, but exponentially, completely changing the damage output formula. Resulting in 2 DLC bosses that had to counter that, making all normal gear completely useless.

It's crucified because it removed choice. For both players and developers.

Because for a game that's about giving you various options to play how you want to play, It bugs me that there are people, who just because they don't like the bee for whatever reason, have brought about an (unecessary) change for people who did enjoy the bee and how it performed.

Ultimately the game designers themselves have the final say. And they deemed it necessary enough to nerf it. (and there were plenty of people who likewise wanted to keep the Bee as is)

If you reference them when designers acknowledged it and allowed it, complaining when they made the decision to adjust it is hypocritical at best.

The fact that the raid bosses in the DLC are as difficult as they are is due to outcry about the Bee being OP.  So with the decision to make the DLC that way, yes the conclusion can be made that it ruins that game for everyone because now we ALL have to deal with these cheap bosses, bee or no bee. However, I can't imagine they would have made such a decision regarding the DLC if it weren't for the fact that people were complaining about it.  DLC not withstanding, i still don't see how it ruins the vanilla BL2 experience for everyone or even anyone at all for that matter. Again, no one is forced to use it.

Welp;~ I'm disappointed by this news.

@zombiebigfoot: The vault hunter relic increases drop rates on greens and blues to the detriment of whites mostly but also purples and oranges. The Warrior has greatly increased drop rates on orange items during the story. If you don't hit the button to fire the moonshot to finish the battle during the story then you can quit and reload to do the Jack and Warrior fight again with the better story based drop rates.

@hbkdx12 said:

The fact that the raid bosses in the DLC are as difficult as they are is due to outcry about the Bee being OP.

You are stretching.

The fact that the raid bosses in the DLC are as difficult as they are is due to the Bee being OP.

Outcry simply made them aware of an ongoing issue. The Bee plainly broke the damage mechanics, devs were forced to adjust for everyone how they were designed. The game was starting to get negatively affected for everyone because of this OP weapon. A choice had to be made they made one.

Again, no one is forced to use it.

Missing the point of my explanation. it doesn't matter if people were forced to use it or not initially. They DID. It broke many things in the game and how the developers expected the people to play it.

Again, DLC not withstanding, it didn't do anything to limit player choice. It was there if you wanted it but you didn't have to use it if you didn't want . There's no point in vanilla BL2 that requires the bee or the extra damage from it.

Why are you making such an emphasis on "DLC not withstanding", it's the continuation of the game, how the game evolves going forwards. It clearly showed how the mechanics and design had to adjust.

And for reference vanilla did change for the negative too. Because everyone and his mom was farming the raid bosses so fast instead of being a challenge the developers introduced the completely retarded 24 hour spawn timer on them. Having a negative impact on vanilla too.

It certainly is hypocritical on their part but my point still stands in that it wasn't hurting anybody and it didn't need to be done in order to create what people consider to be "a much needed balance" It was only done to appease the vocal minority of people who spew vitriol over the internet.

No it's hypocritical on your part. When devs supported your viewpoint you liked it. Now that they support a different viewpoint you refuse to give them their due that they are making the choice to balance their game correctly how they want things to function properly.

it wasn't hurting anybody

It hurt the DLC. It hurt where the game was evolving into.

Again, we're not talking about using exploits or anything like that. Simply using what the game gives us.

Except that it very clearly is an exploit. That is now nerfed. Now the game gives you a fixed Bee. You have the choice to use it or not.

They nerfed it because at the end of the day they want people to enjoy their game

That's the very point. Many people stopped enjoying the game.

The internet brought it to their attention. The ultimate decision of how to design their game is up to the devs.

They nerfed it because at the end of the day they want people to enjoy their game but internet fanfare has the ability to heavily amplify the situation for better or for worse (especially when it comes to the worse) because it's easy for people to find whatever metaphorical soapbox they can and just spout shit about the game.

If you so fervently believe in the power of forum posts and complaints of a vocal minority to change the game design then you can just likewise be the vocal minority and go complain on the Gearbox forums how you want the Bee to be OP again. And give them reasons why you think it should be in it's past state.

You are now the vocal minority crying about the Bee nerf.

I'm even less inclined to go back and play some more. The Bee carried me through the first third of TVHM before it was too little shield to be worth it. Unfortunately after I "upgraded", I found out just how many bullets the enemies could absorb and as a consequence just how few it took to take me down. At the point where I had to gunzerker, run in, unload both clips into a badass' face, run away to reload and cooldown then run back in another two times over to kill one badass when they could off me in two shots, I gave up.

Not fun.

Neither was farming the warrior for ten-plus hours to get two crappy oranges (one of which was the already-acquired-via-automatic-drop Jack mask.) I don't mind the drop rates so much as I mind having to repeatedly kill the same boss over and over and over to get what I want. Don't get me started on BNK3R dropping the apparently hard to acquire assassin's head and never the apparently somewhat easier to acquire Sham shield in the two dozen or so times I killed it when neither of my characters is an assassin. At least in Borderlands 1 I could roam the countryside opening different chests and feel like I'm doing something other than running on some tiny hamster wheel of death.

@Tennmuerti said:

This is good. (coming from someone who used the shit out of the Bee)

They can finally start designing bosses around actual game balance, rather then around an OP item. Both of the 2 extra DLC uber bosses had mechanics introduced designed specifically around preventing the sheer firepower of the Bee, forcing even more exploitative behavior and/or builds/tactics. The Bee actually negatively affected game balance because they were forced to take it's power into account, thus making standard dmg/life ratios even less relevant.

@Morbid_Coffee: See my above explanation as to why the Bee nerf was necessary.

@psylah said:

Shit was busted.

Yep.

Yup. I never got why people think it is a good thing that only one build or one small set of gear is viable. What is the point of a game with "millions of guns" if at max level only 5 of them are actually any good? The Bee needed to be nerfed, it was basically the only shield anyone would use at high level.

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

and they never will.

@MikkaQ said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

Coming from a dude with a DOA 5 picture? I'm not sayin'... just sayin'.

At least DOA 5 can keep you entertained for more than an hour with a friend, even with friends Borderlands 2 is fuckin' boring.

@Sooty said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

and they never will.

@MikkaQ said:

@Demoskinos said:

Have they patched fun into the game yet?

Coming from a dude with a DOA 5 picture? I'm not sayin'... just sayin'.

At least DOA 5 can keep you entertained for more than an hour with a friend, even with friends Borderlands 2 is fuckin' boring.

ehh, tried doa games with friends and never had fun, tooling around with friends in borderlands 1 and 2 still brings fun for me.

Different people have different thoughts on what's fun, who'd have guessed it?

Also I just feel like a complete creep playing doa, playing to it's market I guess and that's not going to stop anytime soon.

@Demoskinos said:

@MikkaQ: DOA over Bore-derlands any day of the week.

It would be pretty boring playing by yourself.

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Demoskinos said:

@MikkaQ: DOA over Bore-derlands any day of the week.

It would be pretty boring playing by yourself.

And that fact right there that people are always like "Oh well play it with friends" is fucking BULLSHIT. I shouldn't have to have my fun with a game locked behind hoping the planets align so that my friends all are playing at the same time. I want to play shit when I want to play shit. The game has utterly failed if they offer a single player option and fail to make it fun alone.

Awesome, now I'll be the only one using the Conference Call.

@Sinusoidal said:

I'm even less inclined to go back and play some more. The Bee carried me through the first third of TVHM before it was too little shield to be worth it. Unfortunately after I "upgraded", I found out just how many bullets the enemies could absorb and as a consequence just how few it took to take me down. At the point where I had to gunzerker, run in, unload both clips into a badass' face, run away to reload and cooldown then run back in another two times over to kill one badass when they could off me in two shots, I gave up.

Not fun.

Neither was farming the warrior for ten-plus hours to get two crappy oranges (one of which was the already-acquired-via-automatic-drop Jack mask.) I don't mind the drop rates so much as I mind having to repeatedly kill the same boss over and over and over to get what I want. Don't get me started on BNK3R dropping the apparently hard to acquire assassin's head and never the apparently somewhat easier to acquire Sham shield in the two dozen or so times I killed it when neither of my characters is an assassin. At least in Borderlands 1 I could roam the countryside opening different chests and feel like I'm doing something other than running on some tiny hamster wheel of death.

Don't really know exactly why you were having such problem dealing damage as a gunzerker on TVHM.

I also played with a gunzerker and never had the Bee until playthrough 2.5 and enemies died very quickly anyway. With a good build, using appropriate weapon types, and as long as they are kept updated a gunzerker can rip through enemies extremely fast.

The gear/loot droprates from bosses are way too low however, with that I agree.

@Demoskinos: I had plenty of fun playing through Borderlands 2 solo, twice. Again people have different tastes. Do you really need to come into every other thread and shit on this game you are no longer playing? Like, i think you made your feelings pretty clear a long time ago, what's the point of this? It's starting to come off as a little obsessive dude >.>