Welp, the Bee just got nerfed

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#51 Posted by xMrSunshine (361 posts) -

@Demoskinos: In total I've played 115 hours of Borderlands 2. Out of that about 1 hour was with a friend and that hour was the worst time I've had with the game. So excuse me if I fail to see your point of OMG NO FUN WHEN ALONE.

#52 Posted by murisan (1119 posts) -

The game was fun, but I really do not understand or care about farming for loot in a game like Borderlands 2, especially when the drop rates are about as low as the old epic drops from vanilla WoW raids.

Maybe I just had enough of farming for loots.

#53 Edited by CatsAkimbo (629 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

@Demoskinos said:

@MikkaQ: DOA over Bore-derlands any day of the week.

It would be pretty boring playing by yourself.

And that fact right there that people are always like "Oh well play it with friends" is fucking BULLSHIT. I shouldn't have to have my fun with a game locked behind hoping the planets align so that my friends all are playing at the same time. I want to play shit when I want to play shit. The game has utterly failed if they offer a single player option and fail to make it fun alone.

Every time I play Borderlands with my friend at night, he literally falls asleep playing. I'll be killing some guys and noticing that it's suddenly a lot harder than usual, turn around, and see him pointed at the sky and running into a wall. I have to yell "hey. HEY. Go to bed."

And in TVHM, I don't blame him. It can get boring as hell slogging through enemies, and now they've removed a way to make it any faster. Though I guess it's arguable that it would still be boring because it would be easy -- maybe this is just putting the game into perspective and it's time for me to move on.

#54 Posted by hbkdx12 (779 posts) -
@Tennmuerti said:

@hbkdx12 said:

The fact that the raid bosses in the DLC are as difficult as they are is due to outcry about the Bee being OP.

You are stretching.

The fact that the raid bosses in the DLC are as difficult as they are is due to the Bee being OP.

Outcry simply made them aware of an ongoing issue. The Bee plainly broke the damage mechanics, devs were forced to adjust for everyone how they were designed. The game was starting to get negatively affected for everyone because of this OP weapon. A choice had to be made they made one.

Again, no one is forced to use it.

Missing the point of my explanation. it doesn't matter if people were forced to use it or not initially. They DID. It broke many things in the game and how the developers expected the people to play it.

Again, DLC not withstanding, it didn't do anything to limit player choice. It was there if you wanted it but you didn't have to use it if you didn't want . There's no point in vanilla BL2 that requires the bee or the extra damage from it.

Why are you making such an emphasis on "DLC not withstanding", it's the continuation of the game, how the game evolves going forwards. It clearly showed how the mechanics and design had to adjust.

And for reference vanilla did change for the negative too. Because everyone and his mom was farming the raid bosses so fast instead of being a challenge the developers introduced the completely retarded 24 hour spawn timer on them. Having a negative impact on vanilla too.

It certainly is hypocritical on their part but my point still stands in that it wasn't hurting anybody and it didn't need to be done in order to create what people consider to be "a much needed balance" It was only done to appease the vocal minority of people who spew vitriol over the internet.

No it's hypocritical on your part. When devs supported your viewpoint you liked it. Now that they support a different viewpoint you refuse to give them their due that they are making the choice to balance their game correctly how they want things to function properly.

it wasn't hurting anybody

It hurt the DLC. It hurt where the game was evolving into.

Again, we're not talking about using exploits or anything like that. Simply using what the game gives us.

Except that it very clearly is an exploit. That is now nerfed. Now the game gives you a fixed Bee. You have the choice to use it or not.

They nerfed it because at the end of the day they want people to enjoy their game

That's the very point. Many people stopped enjoying the game.

The internet brought it to their attention. The ultimate decision of how to design their game is up to the devs.

They nerfed it because at the end of the day they want people to enjoy their game but internet fanfare has the ability to heavily amplify the situation for better or for worse (especially when it comes to the worse) because it's easy for people to find whatever metaphorical soapbox they can and just spout shit about the game.

If you so fervently believe in the power of forum posts and complaints of a vocal minority to change the game design then you can just likewise be the vocal minority and go complain on the Gearbox forums how you want the Bee to be OP again. And give them reasons why you think it should be in it's past state.

You are now the vocal minority crying about the Bee nerf.

It made them aware of it? There was ZERO oversight on their part. They were already aware of it when they gave fans feedback saying that it was working as intended. 
 
I'm saying DLC not withstanding because the DLC didn't adjust to "poor mechanics" or "bad game design"  it was an attempt to shut people up. If the mechanics and design around the bee where so piss poor why wouldn't they just nerf the bee from the start? The 24 hour respawn is only on DLC bosses. Again, meant to combat and offset the complaints
 
No it's hypocritical on their part. Has nothing to do with supporting my viewpoint as they suggested everything was fine from the start. People cried and now they decide to appease people.  Voluntarily using the item that people claim is OP and then complaining that it's OP and ruins the game isn't hypocritical and silly i suppose?
  
No point for me to complain about changing it because for me, unlike a lot of the people who complain it was broken, it's not a black and white issue. There's no right/wrong, winning/losing aspect to it for me. The game isn't suddenly unplayable because the bee doesn't work in the same capacity. My argument is less about the bee specifically and more about having a fair share of options. People who wanted it, had it. Those who didn't, didn't have to use it.
 
Regardless of how you feel about the bee, objectively take a step back and look at the situation before and after this fiasco. Before the complaints, the worse case scenario was that people were using the bee and things died a lot quicker than normal which simply impacted that player who used it. After they "address" the situation, we now have cheap DLC bosses...that affects EVERYONE. Respawn timers to offset looting and farming in a game that's about looting and farming....that affects EVERYONE. To boot, these... lets call them safeguards...were implemented to counteract people using the bee and being OP and infuse challenge back into the game but then they go and nerf the bee anyway and still leaving us with incredibly cheap bosses and stupid respawn timers. Can you really suggest the game took a turn for the better? That the design of the game improved now that the issue has been addressed? We now have fewer options and more limitations. That's a problem
 
In an attempt to be as succint as possible, I close out my argument as such. You offer me this:
 

"Except that it very clearly is an exploit. That is now nerfed. Now the game gives you a fixed Bee. You have the choice to use it or not."

But wasn't that what it was always about? Player choice? Players having options? In terms of the game (not to mention the crutch of my entire argument) People could use any given piece of loot if they so choose and if not, then don't. You telling me that I have the choice to use it or not is the very definition of hypercritical given everything that's been said.
#55 Posted by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@hbkdx12 said:

It made them aware of it? There was ZERO oversight on their part. They were already aware of it when they gave fans feedback saying that it was working as intended.

I'm saying DLC not withstanding because the DLC didn't adjust to "poor mechanics" or "bad game design" it was an attempt to shut people up. If the mechanics and design around the bee where so piss poor why wouldn't they just nerf the bee from the start? The 24 hour respawn is only on DLC bosses. Again, meant to combat and offset the complaints

No it's hypocritical on their part. Has nothing to do with supporting my viewpoint as they suggested everything was fine from the start. People cried and now they decide to appease people. Voluntarily using the item that people claim is OP and then complaining that it's OP and ruins the game isn't hypocritical and silly i suppose?

No point for me to complain about changing it because for me, unlike a lot of the people who complain it was broken, it's not a black and white issue. There's no right/wrong, winning/losing aspect to it for me. The game isn't suddenly unplayable because the bee doesn't work in the same capacity. My argument is less about the bee specifically and more about having a fair share of options. People who wanted it, had it. Those who didn't, didn't have to use it.

Regardless of how you feel about the bee, objectively take a step back and look at the situation before and after this fiasco. Before the complaints, the worse case scenario was that people were using the bee and things died a lot quicker than normal which simply impacted that player who used it. After they "address" the situation, we now have cheap DLC bosses...that affects EVERYONE. Respawn timers to offset looting and farming in a game that's about looting and farming....that affects EVERYONE. To boot, these... lets call them safeguards...were implemented to counteract people using the bee and being OP and infuse challenge back into the game but then they go and nerf the bee anyway and still leaving us with incredibly cheap bosses and stupid respawn timers. Can you really suggest the game took a turn for the better? That the design of the game improved now that the issue has been addressed? We now have fewer options and more limitations. That's a problem

In an attempt to be as succint as possible, I close out my argument as such. You offer me this:

"Except that it very clearly is an exploit. That is now nerfed. Now the game gives you a fixed Bee. You have the choice to use it or not."

But wasn't that what it was always about? Player choice? Players having options? In terms of the game (not to mention the crutch of my entire argument) People could use any given piece of loot if they so choose and if not, then don't. You telling me that I have the choice to use it or not is the very definition of hypercritical given everything that's been said.

Going by paragraphs:

Then they did not need to even be made aware of it. Good. The point however remains.

Except that you are speculating as to the why. The facts remain. The negative effect on the game.

Don't care if it is or isn't hypocritical on their part, wasn't arguing that. I was talking about your stance on their decision. Those were my words. Twice now. Learn to read.

You are the one not thinking objectively. All your posts have so far come across as a person who got his favorite broken toy taken away that was used as a crutch, and is now blaming fan feedback and developers who happened to take it into account. I don't give a shit about the Bee itself, I only care about the game balance going forward.

After they "address" the situation, we now have cheap DLC bosses...that affects EVERYONE. Respawn timers to offset looting and farming in a game that's about looting and farming....that affects EVERYONE.

Have you not been reading, i've explained this across 3 long posts now, that this is exactly why an item such as the Bee needed the nerf.

To boot, these... lets call them safeguards...were implemented to counteract people using the bee and being OP and infuse challenge back into the game but then they go and nerf the bee anyway and still leaving us with incredibly cheap bosses and stupid respawn timers. Can you really suggest the game took a turn for the better?

Yes absolutely. Because the first DLC uber boss relies on survivability and not damage output to beat it legit. And the second boss is immune to player damage. Both cases don't care about the Bee.

And now in the future DLC they will not have to introduce further shitty mechanics to make bosses harder.

The respawn timer is bad in an of itself. I fully excpect the developers to change it because of "the vocal internet minority" complaining about it.

We now have fewer options and more limitations. That's a problem

No we don't. At least I don't. The Bee still functions as a damage multiplier, it's just less broken, yet still a useful item.

But wasn't that what it was always about? Player choice? Players having options? In terms of the game (not to mention the crutch of my entire argument) People could use any given piece of loot if they so choose and if not, then don't. You telling me that I have the choice to use it or not is the very definition of hypercritical given everything that's been said.

You still have the options, and can use any given piece of loot, nothing changed in this regard.

#56 Posted by hbkdx12 (779 posts) -
@Tennmuerti said:

You still have the options, and can use any given piece of loot, nothing changed in this regard.
 Really?
 
Your entire argument is moot with this one admission and if nothing else, not that there needs to be anything else, you're just proving my point. You can complain that im crying about my favorite toy being broken or what have you. But your suggesting I have should have no issue with the way that it is now because I can choose to use it or not use it but that was always the case. it's the case with everything in the game!
#57 Edited by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@hbkdx12 said:

@Tennmuerti said:

You still have the options, and can use any given piece of loot, nothing changed in this regard.
Really? Your entire argument is moot with this one admission and if nothing else, not that there needs to be anything else, you're just proving my point. You can complain that im crying about my favorite toy being broken or what have you. But your suggesting I have should have no issue with the way that it is now because I can choose to use it or not use it but that was always the case. it's the case with everything in the game!

Erm what?

Which part of my argument is moot exactly? My only arguments have so far been that A. Bee needed a nerf because it negatively affected the game for everyone via propagated further changes. B. No choice was taken away from you. C. Ultimately the developer makes the decision.

So once again, which of these is moot?

This is becoming quite hilarious tbh. Oh and i am not complaining about your crying, I'm simply calling it on the bullshit and dissecting it point by point, which so far seem to have been all addressed with no return counterargument from you.

#58 Posted by hbkdx12 (779 posts) -
@Tennmuerti
Point C - Yes, yes they do
 
Point B- There's still choice now as there was before the nerf thus in addressing Point A...
 
If the game is negatively affected from everyone who is using it, it's those same people that are using it who are complaining. So, in referencing your Point B, there should be nothing to complain about because they have the choice to not use it especially since, referencing point C, the devs made the decision to have the bee perform in the way that it did. 
 
For what it's worth, i've seen you around a bunch and seen plenty of your posts. You're a cool dude and i commend you on having some well contained civil discourse with another member but clearly we're just both spinning our wheels on this and that's fine. I can agree to disagree
#59 Edited by knitlife (45 posts) -

I take it the nerfing changes the stats of both new (from time of patch) and existing shields? Ugh.

I have a borderline embarrassing number of hours in the game (400+) and one of every class, two lvl 50s. I've seen it all in Pandora now. There is definitely a point in BL2 at which play brings diminishing returns, whether it's having to face the same boring, predictable mobs to go from point A to point B, opening yet another chest full of whites and greens, farming endlessly for the more interesting gear and none drops (or one does and then it shoots into the lava or off the map). The Bee + CC and Bee + Lascaux combos were helping to hold my interest in the repetitive endgame and really made the rote parts fun again.

Time for a new adventure, I guess.

#60 Posted by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@hbkdx12 said:

@Tennmuerti: Point C - Yes, yes they do Point B- There's still choice now as there was before the nerf thus in addressing Point A... If the game is negatively affected from everyone who is using it, it's those same people that are using it who are complaining. So, in referencing your Point B, there should be nothing to complain about because they have the choice to not use it especially since, referencing point C, the devs made the decision to have the bee perform in the way that it did. For what it's worth, i've seen you around a bunch and seen plenty of your posts. You're a cool dude and i commend you on having some well contained civil discourse with another member but clearly we're just both spinning our wheels on this and that's fine. I can agree to disagree

So by your words point C and B are fine.

Point A: has nothing to do with people's complaints, the nerf was necessary because it was affecting everyone regardless of choice to use it or complaining

it's those same people that are using it who are complaining

And plenty of people who used it didn't complain. And plenty of people who did not use it also complained.

there should be nothing to complain about because they have the choice to not use it especially since

Again nothing to do with point A, whether those people were right to complain or not I am not debating, point's A only concern is: game design balance, which the first DLC showed to be going in a bad direction

None of what you wrote in that parragraph has anything to do with the two factual pieces of information, Bee was over powered, design changed to accommodate it. The only things relevant to it being either true or moot.

I am always willing to start a civil discourse. You will notice I become more rude with time, this is not accidental. When people start either misreading what i write, or deliberately ignoring points, or addressing something entirely different from my argument; patience starts wearing thin. No normal person one is above emotion sorry.

#61 Posted by TheJohn (553 posts) -

I never found The Bee, but I'm nevertheless having a blast going through TVHM. The game is proper challenging now, forcing me to move fast, think about what elemental weapons to use in what order and stay aware of my surrounding area whenever enemies are around. If I had a magic gun/shield combo that could kill anything with a click or two my guess is that it would somewhat sour my continued enjoyment. I really like this game, and nerfing The Bee doesn't change anything about that for me.

#62 Posted by xyzygy (10008 posts) -

Good, that shit was stupid. I admit I used it but it will be nice to have to find an alternative for damage. This and the news of them increasing security against idiots who bring their level 150 characters online is great news.

#63 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

Amplify shields always seemed like a huge waste, so that's a bummer they decided to nerf them even more. I also don't understand nerfing a rare, awesome piece of gear. That's counter productive, right?

#64 Posted by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@Napalm said:

Amplify shields always seemed like a huge waste, so that's a bummer they decided to nerf them even more. I also don't understand nerfing a rare, awesome piece of gear. That's counter productive, right?

If you want to understand, this thread should offers sufficient explanation, i believe.

#65 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

@Napalm said:

Amplify shields always seemed like a huge waste, so that's a bummer they decided to nerf them even more. I also don't understand nerfing a rare, awesome piece of gear. That's counter productive, right?

If you want to understand, this thread should offers sufficient explanation, i believe.

I still think it's dumb, especially for an orange.

#66 Edited by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@Napalm said:

@Tennmuerti said:

@Napalm said:

Amplify shields always seemed like a huge waste, so that's a bummer they decided to nerf them even more. I also don't understand nerfing a rare, awesome piece of gear. That's counter productive, right?

If you want to understand, this thread should offers sufficient explanation, i believe.

I still think it's dumb, especially for an orange.

Every other orange shield compared to the Bee was like a matchstick compared to a nuke. You think it's dumb that an item that makes you instantly deal 5-20x more damage (depending on weapon combo), and that was far far outside of "orange" quality department, an item that single handedly broke the game's balance, in a game designed around loot variation and acquiring better gear and tough fights, got nerfed?

Mkay ...

#67 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

@Napalm said:

@Tennmuerti said:

@Napalm said:

Amplify shields always seemed like a huge waste, so that's a bummer they decided to nerf them even more. I also don't understand nerfing a rare, awesome piece of gear. That's counter productive, right?

If you want to understand, this thread should offers sufficient explanation, i believe.

I still think it's dumb, especially for an orange.

Every other orange shield compared to the Bee was like a matchstick compared to a nuke. You think it's dumb that an item that makes you instantly deal 5-20x more damage (depending on weapon combo), and that was far far outside of "orange" quality department, an item that single handedly broke the game's balance, in a game designed around loot variation and acquiring better gear and tough fights, got nerfed?

Mkay ...

That's exactly what I'm saying. Any more questions? Or are you good?

#68 Posted by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@Napalm said:

@Tennmuerti said:

@Napalm said:

@Tennmuerti said:

@Napalm said:

Amplify shields always seemed like a huge waste, so that's a bummer they decided to nerf them even more. I also don't understand nerfing a rare, awesome piece of gear. That's counter productive, right?

If you want to understand, this thread should offers sufficient explanation, i believe.

I still think it's dumb, especially for an orange.

Every other orange shield compared to the Bee was like a matchstick compared to a nuke. You think it's dumb that an item that makes you instantly deal 5-20x more damage (depending on weapon combo), and that was far far outside of "orange" quality department, an item that single handedly broke the game's balance, in a game designed around loot variation and acquiring better gear and tough fights, got nerfed?

Mkay ...

That's exactly what I'm saying. Any more questions? Or are you good?

No I'm good.

I have no problem with a dumb unsubstantiated opinion. :)

#69 Posted by chilibean_3 (1644 posts) -

I don't know. It's the endgame of a PvE game. Don't you want to feel overpowered after 100 hours of leveling and farming?

#70 Edited by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@chilibean_3 said:

I don't know. It's the endgame of a PvE game. Don't you want to feel overpowered after 100 hours of leveling and farming?

If this was across the board and extended to other gear and the rest of the game, sure. But not to such a huge disparity with a singular item. If being overpowered was how Borderlands 2 approached it's endgame content in the first place, the Bee would be fine. But it doesn't TVHM is a hell of a challenge and 2.5 is made even more so. It works like Diablo difficulty levels work, each new stage making it harder and harder.

Would you not expect an item in say Diablo 2 to be nerfed if it made the player do 10x damage out of the blue and cream everything with no effort? Or if on impossible Xcom you found that a certain combo would give your soldiers 100hp, would that not warrant fixing? Or an item in Dark Souls that made all bosses die in a couple of seconds and one shot everything else (while not affecting players)? This is game design 101, for games where challenge is a driving factor. Games like Torchlight or Skyrim no one would have cared about it, because those games take a different approach and are designed with different goals in mind.

Boss fights that Gearbox proudly marketed as the toughest changeless for groups of people to beat against with blood sweat and tears required to triumph were reduced to several second jokes with even 1 player. It was their buffer to keep people entertained and occupied somwehat between DLCs. All that developer effort, challenge, encounter design - wasted, gone, made inconsequential, poof.

They had a choice to fix 1 item, or leave the rest 99.99999% of the shields obsolete, or rebalance all that other gear and then rebalance the rest of the game to boot. For a game where loot choice is a selling point that's second option is a bad thing and the third is an insane amount of work.

#71 Edited by chilibean_3 (1644 posts) -

@Tennmuerti: Them's a lot of words that I ain't gonna read. So I'll read the beginning and the end. I think the game would be better off with more overpowered equipment as opposed to fewer or none. So we almost agree. But just almost.

#72 Edited by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@chilibean_3 said:

@Tennmuerti: Them's a lot of words that I ain't gonna read. So I'll read the beginning and the end. I think the game would be better off with more overpowered equipment as opposed to fewer or none. So we almost agree. But just almost.

Too bad. I've spent a bit of my personal time and effort to write that down and try to explain. Considering you asked the question. It would have been basic civility to spend 1/10th of that time to read it.

#73 Posted by TehPickle (477 posts) -

I honestly do not understand how the 'Invincible' bosses are supposed to be beat if not by either standing in a spot where you can't be hit, or just killing them instantly with overpowered (read: broken) loot.

Gearbox really have their work cut out to make end game content compelling in any sense of the word. At this point, I'm really concerned that my season pass purchase has been a complete waste of money.

#74 Posted by TehPickle (477 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

Boss fights that Gearbox proudly marketed as the toughest changeless for groups of people to beat against with blood sweat and tears required to triumph were reduced to several second jokes with even 1 player. It was their buffer to keep people entertained and occupied somwehat between DLCs. All that developer effort, challenge, encounter design - wasted, gone, made inconsequential, poof.

Yep absolutely, but knowing what we know about loot drops and their respective rates from the likes of Terramorphous, if you DID spend hours retrying over and over (doing it as the designers intended basically), would you be satisfied with the rewards? I know I wouldn't

I'm not sure what my point is here other than saying: The whole of the Borderlands 2 end-game experience is one huge catch-22 situation.

#75 Edited by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@TehPickle: I fully agree, the orange loot drop rates, for the expected effort are just stupid.

#76 Posted by chilibean_3 (1644 posts) -

@Tennmuerti: You got what I was saying. I got what you were saying. We just disagree.

#77 Edited by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@chilibean_3 said:

@Tennmuerti: You got what I was saying. I got what you were saying. We just disagree.

Except that you didn't. Nor was even i advancing an opinion to be agreed/disagreed with.

Nor does that somehow negate the dismissive aspect of your reply, even if you did. If you can't make a basic effort required for a conversation, why enter it at all. Did you apply as little time to the thought process behind the opinion on the Bee nerf, seems that way.

#78 Posted by dudeglove (7911 posts) -

@Tennmuerti: Out of curiosity, have you ever been able to purchase orange items from the vendors? Granted most of the time I'm just instantly selling stuff after warrior runs and don't take any real notice of the item of the day but I've yet to see anything beyond a purple. BL1 vendors in New Haven would regularly dispense Hellfire smgs (which was sort of dumb).

And is it just me or has everyone's subsequent characters after going through the game once with their main seen far more legendary drops? Maybe it's just the luck of the draw and I'm probably just glazing over the slow parts having done them already, but the fifth character I've made (a mechromancer) has seen some pretty awesome stuff. In one instance I got two legendaries within about 20 seconds in the wildlife exploitation reserve from that named skag and the stalker nearby (the flying shotgun and the shield), and a few days later in the Eridium Blight Donkey Mong dropped the unique bandit launcher (6 rockets per round!).

Still ain't seen dick from the warrior, though.

#79 Posted by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -

@dudeglove:

Yes the vending machine's item of the day has a tiny chance for an orange. I bought an orange rocket launcher once and a grenade mod. But it seems vary rare.

Dunno about the second part, i've only seriously played through with one character so far, others are middling around low levels atm, waiting for when I get the itch again.

#80 Posted by Keavy_Rain (130 posts) -

@OneKillWonder_ said:

Never even got the Bee to see what the big deal was, so I guess I have nothing to really be disappointed over. I would like the Phalanx Shield on the turret to be patched so that it isn't completely useless, though.

The Phalanx Shield is as worthless as giving Deathtrap a shield and they won't fix either of those issues because Gearbox seems to only fix "issues" that make this game easy and fun to play.

#81 Posted by YoshiTheOreo (3 posts) -

Even still, from what I'm reading here about the cons is simply this, "I want a challenge." Someone made an example about Dark Souls and how there are ways to hand bosses their behinds on a silver platter, but here's the thing that person fails to mention; all of it is 'choice'. Take these $.02, the Four Kings could be the easiest to you, but harder for others. Do you:

(A). Complain about how the Four Kings is not hard enough and request FromSoftware to increase their health, damage, and the number of cloned kings to spawn infinitely one second after another?

-or-

(B). Take it upon you, the player, to detach your powerful weapons, armor, rings, items, and run in their butt naked with a million souls and 99 humanity, with nothing but a rusty kitchen knife while poisoned and toxic, along with any other hair raising conditions to satisfy your lust of challenge?

This complaint about the Bee is nothing but a childish cry. In Borderlands 1, I found modding pointless and was against it more than anything, simply because legendary guns rained from the heavens (Equalizers primarily :P). Know what I did since I hated modding? I didn't complain to the company, I went to some forums, found some people who didn't use mods, made great friends, and hell, we still play on Borderlands 2. So if I am able to do this, along with others, why can't any of the nay-Sayers comply? You have the kick function, use it. TAKE THE SHIELD OFF! Use white weapons! If anything, Matchstick didn't complain about the Bee, and all he had was faith and an incinerator repeater! He's more gamer than all you complainers are! There are no leaderboards of who killed what the fastest legitimately! You are all in your own little box of Pandora, along with three other players, who you the host can 'play god' and set the rules. And even still, you gripe, gripe, and gripe, till there's nothing left.

"But Yoshi, they had to nerf the Bee because their raid bosses didn't stand a chance. This also encourages others to play online with others." So what? You're expecting all the consumers to have online capability? This is assuming the consumer has downloaded the patch and has lost any source of internet connection. You're also assuming all four players, with the probability of being in different parts of the world, to be on at the same time, with a clear schedule, to do any of these bosses. "Sorry guys, it's 7:00 pm where I'm at, and mom wants me in bed by 7:30. I know you need a fourth man, but rules are rules, and fourth grade is no joke. *signs off; begin tentacle rape* " If that was the case, Gearbox might as well strip the offline function and package this game like "Mag" as online play only.

"But Yoshi, the Bee made all the shields so pointless. They had to nerf it."...and how does this effect 'your choice', sir/madam? How does this effect your judgement to go into your inventory, take off the shield, put any of the other ones on, and play to 'your' heart's content? How does the thought of someone in this universe of this community, who uses the Bee, effect your thoughts and feelings, when there are no repercussions, no consequences, and no adverse effect to 'how you play' in your little box of Pandora? Players had the choice and resources all along on how to control their environment and how they deem it to be, the nay-Sayers just fail to use it.

#82 Posted by blacklab (1563 posts) -

I am still in PL1 and just got The Bee. I guessed I missed the fun because it's sort of garbage.

#83 Posted by jking47 (1214 posts) -

I don't understand the problem with having an overpowered weapon in a game like this. Balance really does not matter since it is not a PVP game, why not just let everyone have fun with stupid broken games?

#84 Posted by Toxin066 (3292 posts) -

End game/rare loot is supposed to be godlike. I don't feel like my enemies are shaking in their boots at the sound of my name anymore.

#85 Posted by YoshiTheOreo (3 posts) -

@Toxin066: Tell me about it. ._.

#86 Posted by YoshiTheOreo (3 posts) -

Also, does anyone get the feeling the patch didn't do anything but just the Bee? I'm still having my points reset on me online/offline and I freeze more often when it states, "Sending character information.", when loading into the host's room.

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