About the AI in Brink

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#1 Edited by ObiFett (12 posts) -

Before you complain about the bots there is one thing to realize:  The bots get better as you get better AND as the need to help you increases.

About enemy AI:
Yes, when you are low level, the enemy AI is stupid.  You will kill them without any problem and finish missions pretty easily.  Then as you gain levels and unlock abilities you'll notice that you start failing missions and the enemy AI will murder you.  OVER.  AND OVER.  And they will continue to do it without mercy and in new curbstomping ways each match. The enemy AI in this game, at higher levels, is out of control hard.  And I love it.  A 1v1 shootout against the AI at higher levels is scary and will always keep you on your toes. You're lucky if you come out with 1/2 health.  1v2 and you just better run or pray help comes soon.  Its an awesome challenge and makes me keep coming back to this game.

About friendly AI:

Richard Ham was just on a live stream from Machinima and he got asked a few questions, one of the big ones was about bots.  Basically what he said is:

-the bots are not stupid
-they hold back and wait for you to do the objective, even say for example a bot soldier is at the objective he will not complete it in the first few minutes.
-they get more intelligent and aggressive as the time ticks down and they realise your aren't going to get the object done
-they act more intelligent when there are more humans on the opposite team.


he also said splashdamage will change their settings to full out if thats what community wants so the bots wont hold back at all.

TLDR:  People complaining about AI being stupid need to actually play the game.  Its meant to hold your hand at the beginning, then as you get better, it assumes you can deal with harder, murder, psycho bots and gives you less help on your side to actually make the game challenging.  Games haven't been a challenge in a long time.  This is a breath of fresh air.
#2 Edited by KarlPilkington (2710 posts) -

Those points about friendly AI make it sound like they are trying to make features out of stupid AI.

#3 Edited by ObiFett (12 posts) -

 @Chabbs0 said:

" Those points about friendly AI make it sound like they are trying to make features out of stupid AI. "

 
Name one FPS that has intelligent friendly AI in singleplayer.

COD has AI that just runs and gets killed over and over. You have to do everything. EVERYTHING.
BF:BC? Same.
Halo:Reach? They act like they are doing stuff and will get the occasional kill but you gotta kill nearly everything in that game too.

Brink is different only in that what the game calls 'singleplayer' we call 'multiplayer with bots'.  If you look at it through singleplayer glasses, the bots shouldn't complete the objectives.  They should be focused on supporting you (reviving, killing, resupplying, doing the boring objectives like command posts, etc).  And they do that EXTREMELY well.  Many times have I run out of ammo to have a bot run up a second later and give me more.  They always buff me and always, when nearby, revive me.  They do what they should do in singleplayer.  If they did more, the game would basically play itself.  Who wants that?
#4 Edited by Mikemcn (6968 posts) -

I feel like theres alot of Brink Apologists. I play plenty of games that most people don't like, but at least they're unique, brink is like every other shooter, with oddly elongated characters. And the reason other shooters don't have "multiplayer" with bots is because they are so god damn lame. Who wants a game where your expected to do everything yourself until the AI trigger's its own on switch and takes over?

#5 Edited by ObiFett (12 posts) -

Yep, Brink is just like every other shooter
with parkour
and gun selection not based on class
and no snipers
and no grenade spam
and extreme character customization
and no K:D tracking
and an actual focus on teamwork

Just like every other shooter.

#6 Posted by KarlPilkington (2710 posts) -
@ObiFett: I'm getting the feeling you like Brink. 
#7 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5211 posts) -

It sounds like your just defending the fact that the AI doesn't do anything making you do all the work.


I haven't played it, its just how its sound like your describing it.
#8 Posted by Vexed (313 posts) -
@ObiFett said:
" and no grenade spam "
You can spam the fuck out of grenades as a soldier with the grenade launcher equipped, just sayin'  =P
#9 Edited by CornBREDX (5051 posts) -

They can say what they want- I'm still not interested in the game. It just isn't appealing to me.
Reason that bothers me is I really liked the Unreal Tournament and Quake Arena games back in the day so for me its more so the game just doesn't look fun.
I'd still play UT2004 actually- hmm wonder if ppl still play that.
I know what I'm doing tomorrow!

#10 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -

Those sound like excuses, and, yes, this game does look like every other game. You can back it up all you want, but I would advise that you celebrate the game on the Brink forums or with close friends and family, because you are not going to get the support you want here.

#11 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

AI is stupid when you're the only person on your team trying to hold down an objective. That doesn't sound like support, that sounds bullshit. I was excited about this game and I've been let down.

#12 Posted by foggel (2763 posts) -
@Chabbs0 said:
" @ObiFett: I'm getting the feeling you like Brink.  "
... or an intense hatred for the most popular FPS' out there,
#13 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -

Not convinced. They sold this game as having a singleplayer campaign, which is such an exaggeration on what they provided that it is a borderline lie. Yet we should believe that the incredibly poor AI on offer is a 'feature' that improves with you?

The bots could well get smarter and turn the pathetic excuse for a singleplayer mode into a great experience...but who the fuck cares? The bots in the QL were dumb, majorly dumb, and posed basically no challenge to Jeff, who was at a reasonable level. Furthermore, when do the bots get smarter? If you are a new player and they are pants on head retarded, ensuring you have no fun whatsofuckingever, how is that a 'feature'? I am a pretty good FPS player, how many hours should I grind before I'm allowed to have fun with smart bots, instead of watching my teammates get mowed down while enemy bots stare at me blankly without shooting?

Why would I play against bots if I'm that invested on the game?

#14 Edited by Mahonay (828 posts) -

Whatever their intentions were, the actual end result are friendly bots that act like complete buffoons.  I actually like this game but I'm not going to try and make myself believe the AI is even half acceptable.

I get it.  They made a design choice with the AI that is supposed to make them dynamically change as you play.  They failed miserably in execution, which is what matters.  Give me all the details you want about the AI but I'm fucking playing this game and it's bad enough that I couldn't play past 2 missions on my own with bots. 

#15 Edited by ObiFett (12 posts) -
@huntad said:

" Those sound like excuses, and, yes, this game does look like every other game. You can back it up all you want, but I would advise that you celebrate the game on the Brink forums or with close friends and family, because you are not going to get the support you want here. "

I am on a Brink forum. o.O
#16 Edited by ObiFett (12 posts) -
@Tim_the_Corsair said:

" Not convinced. They sold this game as having a singleplayer campaign, which is such an exaggeration on what they provided that it is a borderline lie. Yet we should believe that the incredibly poor AI on offer is a 'feature' that improves with you? The bots could well get smarter and turn the pathetic excuse for a singleplayer mode into a great experience...but who the fuck cares? The bots in the QL were dumb, majorly dumb, and posed basically no challenge to Jeff, who was at a reasonable level. Furthermore, when do the bots get smarter? If you are a new player and they are pants on head retarded, ensuring you have no fun whatsofuckingever, how is that a 'feature'? I am a pretty good FPS player, how many hours should I grind before I'm allowed to have fun with smart bots, instead of watching my teammates get mowed down while enemy bots stare at me blankly without shooting? Why would I play against bots if I'm that invested on the game? "

- They never said the game was going to have a proper single player campaign. They actually expressly said the campaign was going to be exactly what came on the disc.
- Saying the bots posed basically no challenge to Jeff in the QL is laughable.  He was getting killed very regularly and was unable to plant the charge on that first map multiple times.  His complaint was about the friendly AI.  Had he simply buffed his allies and worked with the AI, he would have had more success.  And he wasn't that high of level, for that matter.
-So you are saying the AI should be amazing against new players? That's bad game design.  Every game starts off easy then gets harder.  Its part of gaming.  Increase of time played = increase in skill = increase of game difficulty.

And again, if the bots did more, the game would play itself.  Who wants that in any single player FPS experience?  I mean really?  If when playing Halo the bots completed levels, or in COD the bots crossed the invisible checkpoint line, it wouldn't be a game.  It wouldn't be a challenge. Bots don't complete objectives right away to give you a chance to do it yourself and/or to give you a challenge.
#17 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -
@ObiFett There is a huge difference between difficulty level and intelligence. Bots can be utterly moronic but still headshot you across a map instantly, that's just programming in 'cheats'.

Play any UT for an example of bot AI which becomes more difficult at higher levels, but is always a challenge even for newer players. Treating new players as needing to be handheld by moronic bots that completely ruin game flow is idiotic, especially when they just laid down their hard-earned.

Regarding Jeff, we both know he would have had no trouble with that game if he wasnt distracted by talking to Brad and doing the QL. The only challenge there for someone playing seriously would have been the weight of numbers, assisted by the idiotic friendly AI.
#18 Posted by l4wd0g (1931 posts) -

Playing with bots in brink is like playing Left 4 Dead single player. Yeah, it's possible, but it's not nearly  as much fun.

#19 Posted by buzz_clik (6964 posts) -

There's a difference between bot AI scaling to your actual skill level in a fluid, dynamic way (IE noticing what you are good at and what you aren't and adjusting accordingly) and bot AI appearing stupid (or simply broken) at lower levels because that's what they're told to do (or simply because they're broken). One of these is canny programming, the other is lazy. Guess which is which!

Moderator
#20 Posted by Fluxxed (81 posts) -

It's not a bug, it's a feature.

#21 Posted by Errordotocx (119 posts) -
@CornBREDX: When I decided to play for a bit about a year ago, there were still people playing. Also, take a look at this UT2K4 Servers. :)
#22 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5211 posts) -
@ObiFett said:
" @Tim_the_Corsair said:

" Not convinced. They sold this game as having a singleplayer campaign, which is such an exaggeration on what they provided that it is a borderline lie. Yet we should believe that the incredibly poor AI on offer is a 'feature' that improves with you? The bots could well get smarter and turn the pathetic excuse for a singleplayer mode into a great experience...but who the fuck cares? The bots in the QL were dumb, majorly dumb, and posed basically no challenge to Jeff, who was at a reasonable level. Furthermore, when do the bots get smarter? If you are a new player and they are pants on head retarded, ensuring you have no fun whatsofuckingever, how is that a 'feature'? I am a pretty good FPS player, how many hours should I grind before I'm allowed to have fun with smart bots, instead of watching my teammates get mowed down while enemy bots stare at me blankly without shooting? Why would I play against bots if I'm that invested on the game? "

- They never said the game was going to have a proper single player campaign. They actually expressly said the campaign was going to be exactly what came on the disc.
- Saying the bots posed basically no challenge to Jeff in the QL is laughable.  He was getting killed very regularly and was unable to plant the charge on that first map multiple times.  His complaint was about the friendly AI.  Had he simply buffed his allies and worked with the AI, he would have had more success.  And he wasn't that high of level, for that matter.
-So you are saying the AI should be amazing against new players? That's bad game design.  Every game starts off easy then gets harder.  Its part of gaming.  Increase of time played = increase in skill = increase of game difficulty.

And again, if the bots did more, the game would play itself.  Who wants that in any single player FPS experience?  I mean really?  If when playing Halo the bots completed levels, or in COD the bots crossed the invisible checkpoint line, it wouldn't be a game.  It wouldn't be a challenge. Bots don't complete objectives right away to give you a chance to do it yourself and/or to give you a challenge. "
Remember that second map where he just plowed through those bots where all he did was sit in the corner.  The point of the single player is to teach teamwork.  If you can't learn to support anyone because you are doing everything yourself the game has failed in its intent.  If the bots did more you would learn how to properly support your team so when you go online you can back up your mates instead of struggling to do the objective first.
#23 Posted by huntad (1931 posts) -
@ObiFett: Well you're in GiantBomb forums which contain a section for Brink. I was specifically talking about Brink forums. Like the kind that an official dev or fansite would have. To me, these are primarily GiantBomb forums.
#24 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4362 posts) -
@Mikemcn said:
" I feel like theres alot of Brink Apologists. I play plenty of games that most people don't like, but at least they're unique, brink is like every other shooter, with oddly elongated characters. And the reason other shooters don't have "multiplayer" with bots is because they are so god damn lame. Who wants a game where your expected to do everything yourself until the AI trigger's its own on switch and takes over? "
That's the phrase I've been trying to think of for the longest time in order to describe this. It's weird. It feels like there's been a lot more people than normal who rush out to defend this game. I honestly can't think of any game in recent memory where there were more people seem to have gone out of their way to prove it isn't bad. Like someone is standing on the street corner telling someone else how bad Brink is, then some random dude jumps out the bushes is just like, "whoa whoa whoa ok guys. Brink isn't that bad ok? I mean it's not perfect, but I like it. Are you sure you were playing it right? You sure you understand this game? Just askin."

I'm not saying Brink is the worst thing ever, but it just feels like a lot of people can't accept it didn't turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
#25 Posted by SgtReznor (210 posts) -
@l4wd0g said:
" Playing with bots in brink is like playing Left 4 Dead single player. Yeah, it's possible, but it's not nearly  as much fun. "
this.
a million times this.
#26 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -
@PrimeSynergy said:
" but it just feels like a lot of people can't accept it didn't turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. "
And nobody is saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, except maybe a couple of fringe assholes.

Get your head out of your ass. I see far more complaining and snarky, pseudo-witty one-liners from idiots who haven't actually played the damn game than anybody going on the opposite spectrum.
#27 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4362 posts) -
@Napalm said:
" @PrimeSynergy said:
" but it just feels like a lot of people can't accept it didn't turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. "
And nobody is saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, except maybe a couple of fringe assholes.

Get your head out of your ass. I see far more complaining and snarky, pseudo-witty one-liners from idiots who haven't actually played the damn game than anybody going on the opposite spectrum.
"
Ok well I'm not entirely sure how my head is up my ass, but you clearly know better than I do so congratulations you win. I'll just end it there.
#28 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -
@Napalm
@PrimeSynergy said:
" but it just feels like a lot of people can't accept it didn't turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. "
And nobody is saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, except maybe a couple of fringe assholes.

Get your head out of your ass. I see far more complaining and snarky, pseudo-witty one-liners from idiots who haven't actually played the damn game than anybody going on the opposite spectrum.
Hey congratulations on proving his point for him!

(if your idiotic overreaction to his rather politely worded post was not due to you being a Brink fanboy, my apologies).
#29 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -
@PrimeSynergy: I'm pointing out that you're living in a damn vacuum in relation to this game, community and opinions. And because one guy out of fifty assholes defends the game, that means he's an apologist? That makes no sense. Most people who are enjoying the game are enjoying it because they feel its competent with a lot of great, unique qualities.

We are not apologists. We like the game because it's unique and fuckin' fun. You guys are done here. You've had your fun spamming up the Brink forum with bullshit sarcasm. Go back to Off Topic.
#30 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4362 posts) -
@Napalm said:
"Go back to Off Topic. "
SIR YES SIR
#31 Posted by canucks23 (1087 posts) -

From the campaign and a half i've played, i fucking hate the bots. The bots on the other team can defend like crazy and my bots don't do shit all to help. It's frustrating as hell.

#32 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -
@Napalm dude was trying to convince us that the notably terrible AI and crappy scaling was a FEATURE...

Nope, not an apologist at all, just a poor victim of us sarcastic ne'erdowells.
#33 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
@canucks23 said:
" From the campaign and a half i've played, i fucking hate the bots. The bots on the other team can defend like crazy and my bots don't do shit all to help. It's frustrating as hell. "
Fully gone when you play with people. And when you work toghter. Its betifule to see guys sliding over to throw you a Revive thing. Then a guy running over to give you ammo and buff you
#34 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -
@canucks23 said:
" From the campaign and a half i've played, i fucking hate the bots. The bots on the other team can defend like crazy and my bots don't do shit all to help. It's frustrating as hell. "
I'm doing the Challenges to buff my weapons before I redo the campaign. Also, be constantly buffing your teammates. They'll help you a whole lot.
#35 Posted by N7 (3580 posts) -

hey guys the ai inst broken its just that theyh are supposed to suck to teach you to get better a tthis game so you should go out and buy the gamebecause he ai is supposed to e tough like that not easy like most people do it so it nos a bug its the way the game issupposed to be played so you should buy brink

jeffs review was wrong becuse he was bad at it not because he game sucks it bwcause that the ai is as good as you to teach teamwork so if yuor bad it bsad like realistic moltiplayer games unlike cod where you sit in a corner and camp so if you sit in acmp then the will to so you hae to be good at the game and they will be good to so thatswhy jeff reivewi is wrong because hes not good at the game soyou shouldnt listen to him the game is good you just have to play it on the pc because it was made for the pc so you should play it there and it will be good to

buy brink guys

#36 Posted by mordukai (7149 posts) -
@Chabbs0 said:
" @ObiFett: I'm getting the feeling you like Brink.  "
I'm getting the feeling he made Brink. 
#37 Posted by Jams (2960 posts) -
@Napalm said:
" @PrimeSynergy: I'm pointing out that you're living in a damn vacuum in relation to this game, community and opinions. And because one guy out of fifty assholes defends the game, that means he's an apologist? That makes no sense. Most people who are enjoying the game are enjoying it because they feel its competent with a lot of great, unique qualities.

We are not apologists. We like the game because it's unique and fuckin' fun. You guys are done here. You've had your fun spamming up the Brink forum with bullshit sarcasm. Go back to Off Topic.
"
Yeah it's weird. There are a ton of people coming here to these forums just to talk shit about the game. It's not like Brink fanboys are running into General Forums and saying how great Brink is. It seems obvious who's doing the bashing and frankly trolling.

I'm personally having a damn blast playing the game online. I've been doing crazy wall jumps up to balconies that may or may not been made to do that. At one point I killed 3 guys and ran slide out of the fire of a 4th almost dying then getting healed and running right back in to keep on defending. It was really fun and different. The more I play Brink the more I enjoy it too. At first I had a little buyers remorse from being bummed out by the quick look and the odd controls. But after a while I was sliding and gliding with the best of them.
#38 Posted by Malakhii (1443 posts) -

I'm really liking Brink, the multiplayer aspect at least, but dude the AI is fucking terrible. It is no fun trying to complete objectives while getting shot by 8 guys, while your teammates sit there and pick their dingle berries. If the bots turned out how they wanted as part of their design philosophy, well then they goofed on that part of the game. It just makes matches long, tedious and rage inducing for no reason. 


Like I said though, I'm enjoying the game, the multiplayer side of it is really fun. Especially once you start getting more and more into doing some of the parkour moves. 
#39 Posted by Yanngc33 (4496 posts) -
@ObiFett: have you tried to play the game on hard in solo mode? it's god damn impossible and your buddies are like cannon fodder
#40 Posted by chilibean_3 (1633 posts) -

NOOOOOOOOOBOOOOOOODDDDYYYYYYYYY CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRREEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


Please, go enjoy your game.  It will be a lot more fun than complaining about people who don't like it. 
#41 Posted by Enigma777 (6070 posts) -

So what you're saying is that the bots are smart 10% of the time, thus we should consider them smart all the time? 


Yeah....
#42 Posted by Jams (2960 posts) -
@chilibean_3: you cared enough to drag your ass to the forums and post here. This is the Brink forum where when we're not playing we can talk about the game.
#43 Posted by l4wd0g (1931 posts) -
@ObiFett said:
"  @Chabbs0 said:

" Those points about friendly AI make it sound like they are trying to make features out of stupid AI. "

 
How do you feel about Unreal Tournament? I always thought the AI was spectacular, but it was never doing as much as Brink. Goals were never as complicated.
#44 Edited by Portis (1286 posts) -
@ObiFett said:

" Yep, Brink is just like every other shooter

with parkour

and gun selection not based on class

and no sniper

sand no grenade spam

and extreme character customization

and no K:D tracking

and an actual focus on teamwork

Just like every other shooter. "

Break it down, son.

Testify!
#45 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -
@jams
@chilibean_3: you cared enough to drag your ass to the forums and post here. This is the Brink forum where when we're not playing we can talk about the game.
Actually, you're thinking of the Official Brink Forums.

This here is the Brink forum on Giant Bomb, where anyone who wants to speak about the game can come and express their opinion, and have a general discourse on the game. Note that nowhere in there does it say that you have to LIKE the game to want to talk about it.

The OP posted something that was, frankly, quite ridiculous, and was thus being an apologist for a game he likes. I have no problem with him liking Brink - I plan on buying it myself - but if you talk bullshit about something, expect to get corrected, even if it is on the most holy of holies known as the GB Brink forum.

#46 Posted by President_Barackbar (3448 posts) -
@Napalm said:
" @PrimeSynergy: I'm pointing out that you're living in a damn vacuum in relation to this game, community and opinions. And because one guy out of fifty assholes defends the game, that means he's an apologist? That makes no sense. Most people who are enjoying the game are enjoying it because they feel its competent with a lot of great, unique qualities.

We are not apologists. We like the game because it's unique and fuckin' fun. You guys are done here. You've had your fun spamming up the Brink forum with bullshit sarcasm. Go back to Off Topic.
"
The OP is an apologist because he is trying to explain away the shitty AI as a feature. That is the very essence of what being an apologist is.
#47 Edited by bartok (2462 posts) -

I love when people make threads defending their purchase of a game that people think is bad because of game reviews and footage of gameplay. 
I know how it feels when I was a kid and I spent my allowance on a bad game I forced myself to love it because I got only a handful of games a year.  To this day I still believe Bart Simpson vs. The Space Mutants, Batman Forever, and WWF Warzone are quality games. 
Edit - Has any game company ruined more peoples childhoods more then Acclaim?

#48 Posted by DryvBy (249 posts) -

No, the AI in this game blows. You people need to quit pretending that this game has AI on-par with another game. I always thought COD's AI sucked, and then I played Brink.

#49 Posted by Hooded (435 posts) -

How about you all play the game, THEN come up with an opinion. Those that have played it have said the A.I isn't as stupid reviews made out them to be.

Infact the A.I on Hard is a fucking beast.

#50 Posted by Origina1Penguin (3500 posts) -

This could be true. If it is, then I throw my support in with "A.I. shouldn't hold back." I would want the bots to behave as (competent) people would if I was playing. The nature of the game makes dynamic A.I. too transparent in all the wrong ways. It's a novel idea that play-testing should have revealed the faults of. To be honest though, the A.I. in the Quick Look did not seem bad to me for the most part. (I understand Jeff said it was acting better at that point)

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