Josh Olin thinks gamers don't appreciate creativity from devs

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#1 Edited by zameer (606 posts) -

Treyarch's Community Manager Josh Olin was recently interviewed by End Gamer to promote the First Strike map pack, transcript can be found here.  
  
It'll be a bit of a tl;dr for most of you, so here's the relevant paragraph:

Personally, as a community manager who lives in the media or social media world every day, I think the social culture of video games is moving in a more negative direction as technology and social media continues to grow. Rather than growing with it, the trend seems to be devolving. More and more gamers seem to forget what this industry is all about.

It’s a creative industry – the most creative form of entertainment in existence. Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by “pundits” and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do.     
Does he suffer from a complete lack of self-awareness? He's representing a franchise that's stagnant and has been criticized for not evolving enough. I appreciated their tweaks to COD 4's now-legendary persistent unlocks system, but Treyarch's most notable contribution to COD was well.. zombies.  
 
He seems like a nice guy but he's rubbed a lot of people the wrong way (that whole clamping down on quick-scoping drama which I didn't care for but many people felt strongly about), and this surely can't help. But in the interests of fairness being a CM is thankless job; lots of unwarranted abuse is surely directed his way. I wouldn't blame him if this was partly fueled by the frustration he must feel on a daily basis.
#2 Posted by President_Barackbar (3467 posts) -
@zameer:  As someone who first bought Black Ops on the PC, he gets very little sympathy from me. The "negative pundits" he's referring to are people who complain about the fact that the PS3 and PC versions of the game are pretty busted right now, and they just don't want to hear it. It also really baffles me that someone who signs up to be a community manager is outraged when people bring their issues with the game to him. Hello! THAT'S WHAT A COMMUNITY MANAGER DOES! As for the way he performs his job, he has not posted anywhere in those forums and generally acts like a dick to anyone who isn't playing the primary (360) version of the game.
#3 Posted by Enigma777 (6078 posts) -

He's right...

#4 Posted by Pie (7109 posts) -

No he's right

#5 Posted by TeflonBilly (4713 posts) -

Ha ha, Treyarch...

#6 Edited by zameer (606 posts) -
@President_Barackbar: I'm right there with you on that PC point; it's a very shoddy port. It's pretty sad, especially since that franchise's first big break was on the PC.  
 
But his comments baffle me really; going "HEY DUDES ZOMBIES AND COLD WAR STUFF AND A ROLLING STONES SONG IN THE VIETNAM MISSION" then being upset when no one appreciates their "innovation" is a complete lack of self-awareness. Doing your job and getting behind the game you're paid to plug is one thing, being aloof is another. 
 
These remarks are especially ironic when you consider that hilarious Duty Calls parody game Epic released to promote Bulletstorm.
#7 Posted by BraveToaster (12589 posts) -

But I thought we did appreciate creativity. In fact, I don't think a lot of devs are creative enough.

#8 Posted by chrissedoff (2153 posts) -

sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. it depends on the product of the creativity and it depends on what you consider to be creative. just because people don't respond the way you think they ought to doesn't mean there exists culture of hating things that are good or creative.

#9 Posted by Gruff182 (863 posts) -

Yep. He has raises a great point.

#10 Posted by Fjordson (2450 posts) -
@Enigma777 said:
" He's right... "
This. Regardless of the creative merits of the Call of Duty franchise, he speaks the truth.
#11 Edited by zameer (606 posts) -
@Fjordson: He's right to a certain extent, gamers have only themselves to blame for the current slew of military shooters. Developers are likely to gear their efforts towards making games that they think we'd like to play.. and they gauge this by observing what we buy.
 
But it's not as if the more esoteric games don't get a fair shake; Braid and Limbo sold quite well and were gaming press darlings. World of Goo's enjoying success on multiple platforms, including the iOS. Minecraft's doing incredibly well and is getting a lot of coverage for a game that defies conventions and what is held to be currently in vogue.. and it isn't even out yet! There's also been a renaissance in the adventure game genre spearheaded by Telltale Games, which I'm thoroughly enjoying.  
 
A significant number of gamers and the press definitely give credit where its due, provided it's done well. Hell, we go overboard at times to be honest. That whole "are games art" hot topic a year or two ago comes to mind. I'd otherwise agree with him and go "Yeah we can be real idiots" but there is a significant market segment for these types of games. So I dunno, his remarks just come across as frustration at the derisive comments made about Treyarch not anything original to move COD forward.
#12 Edited by supermike6 (3586 posts) -

He is absolutely right. Everyone is too focused on shitting on everything that doesn't go perfectly right and don't take the time to appreciate all the brilliant games we get to play every month. It seems people prefer to complain about games than play them. It's kind of ridiculous. 
 
Also, everyone's funny quips about Treyarch are exactly proving his point....

#13 Posted by Doctorchimp (4078 posts) -

He's right, well generally speaking...
 
BUT FUCKING TREYARCH SHOULDN'T OPEN THEIR FUCKING MOUTHS

#14 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4851 posts) -

The community manager from a studio whose most impressive title to date is a rehash of a rehash of a rehash pops off about people not appreciating creativity and innovation. 
 
The irony, it is delicious.

#15 Posted by TonicBH (271 posts) -

He argues that gamers get angry and enraged, people then dump on them for "making rehashes" when they've probably never played a COD past COD4, if they've ever played one for more than five minutes.  
 
There are too many people in this thread being outright hypocrites about this. It makes you look incredibly stupid in hindsight.

Online
#16 Posted by Three0neFive (2297 posts) -
Hey guys, how do you like Call of Rehash 32? What's that? FUCK YOU GUYS YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT CREATIVITY YOU UNCULTURED SWINE WE RULE
#17 Edited by zameer (606 posts) -
@supermike6: Gamers can come across as being overly critical, but it's not as if their criticisms totally lack merit. Offering criticism does not mean being negative; the growing disenchantment with the franchise is very much grounded in reason.  
 
For what it's worth I've clocked over 300 hours in MW2 and Black Ops and still have fun, so I'm no uninformed hater that just dumps on things because it's cool and edgey to be contrarian. Some of the more famous commentators on Machinima have commented that it's objectively the best-balanced and most fun COD game, but still feel let down because the franchise isn't doing anything new. Their opinions are obviously not more authoritative than yours and mine, but it suggests that the problem isn't really a bunch of unappreciative punks being nasty on the internet.
#18 Posted by Gamer_152 (14091 posts) -

I think he's right. There's certainly a lot of people who I don't think even really think about how a game is made but even a lot of people who are more in touch with video games are entitled, hyper-critical and unappreciative.

Moderator
#19 Posted by Doctorchimp (4078 posts) -
@Gamer_152 said:
" I think he's right. There's certainly a lot of people who I don't think even really think about how a game is made but even a lot of people who are more in touch with video games are entitled, hyper-critical and unappreciative. "
You don't think that a community manager behind the best selling game of all time...should take some criticism over kinda seeing the same thing again?
 
Seems to me like he should suck up a couple people going "man...how about something new??"
#20 Posted by DystopiaX (5335 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:
" @Gamer_152 said:
" I think he's right. There's certainly a lot of people who I don't think even really think about how a game is made but even a lot of people who are more in touch with video games are entitled, hyper-critical and unappreciative. "
You don't think that a community manager behind the best selling game of all time...should take some criticism over kinda seeing the same thing again?  Seems to me like he should suck up a couple people going "man...how about something new??" "
Basically this. I think he's right, to some extent, but he's also ignoring the fact that some game studios, including his, aren't being particularly creative. Sometimes gamers don't give credit where credit is due, and sometimes devs expect credit where none should be given. Terrible ports on several platforms across multiple games, almost no advancement in the series formula besides token changes, the tacking on of features included in other games, none of that really deserves credit.
#21 Edited by Slaker117 (4843 posts) -

I don't think the fact that he works for Treyarch makes anything he said less true. While they don't innovate much themselves, many gamers backlash hard when devs try to mix things up. Remember the hate Fallout 3 got from fans of the first two? Or the people who complain that Diablo 3 is too bright? What about the DMC reboot?
 
In a lot of ways fans can straddle innovation because they fear change. They just want what they already love and will bitch endlessly about it.

#22 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4643 posts) -
@DystopiaX said:
" @Doctorchimp said:
" @Gamer_152 said:
" I think he's right. There's certainly a lot of people who I don't think even really think about how a game is made but even a lot of people who are more in touch with video games are entitled, hyper-critical and unappreciative. "
You don't think that a community manager behind the best selling game of all time...should take some criticism over kinda seeing the same thing again?  Seems to me like he should suck up a couple people going "man...how about something new??" "
Basically this. I think he's right, to some extent, but he's also ignoring the fact that some game studios, including his, aren't being particularly creative. Sometimes gamers don't give credit where credit is due, and sometimes devs expect credit where none should be given. Terrible ports on several platforms across multiple games, almost no advancement in the series formula besides token changes, the tacking on of features included in other games, none of that really deserves credit. "
And basically this. For fear of causing even more trouble here, I won't get too specific, but there were a lot of games that came out last year that people were telling us 'gamers' that we should've bought.  A lot of those games were decent, but I would never refer to them as a 'gamer's game.' Then when we don't buy those mediocre games, a million threads creep up and those few loud mouth journalists write articles explaining why we're wrong. If a game fails to deliver a complete package, despite having a few good parts, I see no reason why we should be obligated to buy it. At a certain point, you stop supporting creativity and start encouraging mediocrity.
#23 Posted by VilhelmNielsen (1738 posts) -

I think you guys are forgetting that behind Treyarch is Activision. Wouldn't be too surprised if Activision pointed at COD4 and said, "I wan't another one of these!". 
 
Activision acts on what the people want, because people are money, so if the majority doesn't want change, Activision doesn't want change and then Treyarch can't change anything. Stop blaming Treyarch, they're doing fine with what they're getting.

#24 Posted by zudthespud (3283 posts) -

The fact Call of Duty games are the best selling proves him right. Kind of weird coming from him, but it's fair enough. His company can put out a $60 expansion pack every year and sell millions of copies. 

#25 Posted by Gamer_152 (14091 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:
" @Gamer_152 said:
" I think he's right. There's certainly a lot of people who I don't think even really think about how a game is made but even a lot of people who are more in touch with video games are entitled, hyper-critical and unappreciative. "
You don't think that a community manager behind the best selling game of all time...should take some criticism over kinda seeing the same thing again?  Seems to me like he should suck up a couple people going "man...how about something new??" "
This isn't about how I feel about CoD specifically, I'm saying that as a statement "Gamers don't appreciate creativity from devs" is far too often true.
Moderator
#26 Posted by GetEveryone (4455 posts) -
@zameer said:

"It’s a creative industry – the most creative form of entertainment in existence. Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by “pundits” and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do.     

"Does he suffer from a complete lack of self-awareness?"
What he says is absolutely spot on. You just have to look around the forums here for 5 minutes and you'll see examples of it everywhere. 
 
BUT 
 
You also make a pretty decent point regarding his own companies output.
#27 Edited by Paulus (176 posts) -

Since the whole call of duty is a rehash point has already been made several times over I won't make it again. 
He has a point though, but apart from the fact that the big majority of people are retarded there's another factor this is true... 
 
The most important factor in what makes a game good is the gameplay, you can be creative all you want if the gameplay doesn't feel good it doesn't make it a good game. Being creative when it comes to gameplay introduces another issue...people don't like to learn new stuff, you change the gameplay too drastically from the norm and it'll be "too convoluted and broken".

#28 Posted by FlyBikes06 (87 posts) -

call of duty is probably the least creative franchise for the last couple of years. this guy is just talking for activision.

#29 Posted by Slaker117 (4843 posts) -
@GetEveryone said:

" @zameer said:

"It’s a creative industry – the most creative form of entertainment in existence. Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by “pundits” and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do.     

"Does he suffer from a complete lack of self-awareness?"
What he says is absolutely spot on. You just have to look around the forums here for 5 minutes and you'll see examples of it everywhere.  BUT  You also make a pretty decent point regarding his own companies output. "
 To be fair to him, he never says that Treyarch is innovative. He seems to be talking about the larger industry.

"Too many developers who try new things are getting burned..."

 
If anything, I bet he's frustrated at Activision for not letting them do anything new, using the fan backlash as an excuse.
#30 Edited by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Fjordson said:

" @Enigma777 said:

" He's right... "

This. Regardless of the creative merits of the Call of Duty franchise, he speaks the truth. "
Sorry, but no.  Creativity in gaming is constantly being rewarded while games that do a shallow riff on the same themes as big sellers and big sellers that fail to enthuse as they once did bear the criticism they deserve from fans and pundits alike.  Some gamers do have a sense of entitlement that stretches beyond rational customer desires but they are a minority, however vocal they may seem.  Usually and quite regularly they are derided in public forums such as these and rarely if ever are they elevated beyond troll status.  
 
This doesn't mean that Creatively Driven games are bound to be the biggest sellers because it's very true that many of the largest selling titles are not particularly creative in approach, mechanics or design.  Blockbuster sales often come from franchise titles, just as is the case with other forms of entertainment like music, movies, literature and TV.  What it does mean, however, is that smaller indie titles can garner a lot of critical favour and also sell very well too.  It also means that creative twists are very much a selling point for tried and true franchise titles, such as in Dead Space 2's trip back to the Ishimura as a portion of its gameplay; the ship is the same but it looks and acts very differently to what Dead Space's Ishimura did yet the homage to the first game drives the plot forward and the connection the player had to the first game.  Even a simple twist on a theme if done effectively can be a strong measure of creativity and many games use this technique to great effect.
 
I would hasten to ad that people who assume this person to be correct are displaying an obvious lack of critical thought.  This is an Activision Community Manager and he follows a long line of precedents who have previously tried to cover up shortcomings in Activision products by attempting to shift blame to their customers.
 
Gamers quite clearly do appreciate creativity from devs, what they do not, however, is poorly made and equally poorly supported product.  Further to this, they really don't appreciate when they are pejoratively referred as having a (false) sense of entitlement by the Community Manager of a broken product whose publisher has already threatened to close servers and support for one platform less than 6 months on because they can't seem to get the product working as advertised.
#31 Posted by EvilTwin (3324 posts) -

He should give a very specific example of what he's talking about.  Otherwise he's just blowing hot air. 

#32 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

He reinvented the FPS, and all you people bought it. 
 
I don't understand people who hate COD...all of you buy it and bitch non-stop the months after.

#33 Edited by Fjordson (2450 posts) -

 @SeriouslyNow: I guess we'll agree to disagree then. Maybe I'm thinking about this a bit too financially, but I always hear about games, some that I myself have played, that receive almost unanimous praise for being highly original in some way or doing something that no one else has, yet they don't sell worth shit. Then a game like Black Ops, which you say has a long list of issues and has angered a large group of players, is already one of the best selling games of all time. The next Call of Duty probably will be as well. People can aim all the criticism they want at shallow franchises that don't attempt to change the mold, but a much more powerful gesture would be to vote with your wallet, and in that regard it's blatantly obvious that people are more likely to vote for these sorts of franchises as opposed to something more original.
 
As for general opinion on forums and the like, I agree. People do seem to be more positive towards original titles as opposed to something like Black Ops, and from the sound of things this Josh Olin and co. deserve it. I just don't think any of that actually matters to most of these companies at the end of the day. This whole thing seems artificial. I obviously don't know Josh Olin. He could be a great guy and I'm sure that Treyarch and other companies working for big publishes genuinely want to make a good game. But I'd be willing to bet he doesn't actually care too much about criticism or entitlement from "pundits" and fans. They're in the business of making money and they do that exceedingly well.
 
 @zameer: You're absolutely correct, but I wasn't really speaking in absolutes. Obviously there are numerous exceptions.

#34 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Fjordson said:
"  @SeriouslyNow: I guess we'll agree to disagree then. Maybe I'm thinking about this a bit too financially, but I always hear about games, some that I myself have played, that receive almost unanimous praise for being highly original in some way or doing something that no one else has, yet they don't sell worth shit. Then a game like Black Ops, which you say has a long list of issues and has angered a large group of players, is already one of the best selling games of all time. The next Call of Duty probably will be as well. People can aim all the criticism they want at shallow franchises that don't attempt to change the mold, but a much more powerful gesture would be to vote with your wallet, and in that regard it's blatantly obvious that people are more likely to vote for these sorts of franchises as opposed to something more original.
 
As for general opinion on forums and the like, I agree. People do seem to be more positive towards original titles as opposed to something like Black Ops, and from the sound of things this Josh Olin and co. deserve it. I just don't think any of that actually matters to most of these companies at the end of the day. This whole thing seems artificial. I obviously don't now Josh Olin. He could be a great guy. But I'd be willing to bet he doesn't actually care about criticism or entitlement from "pundits" and fans. They're in the business of making money and they do that exceedingly well.  "
Sorry Pach, but once again no.  Do your job goddam correctly and show some depth of analysis.  Compared to the excessive marketing budget of blockbuster titles, smaller indie titles like Super Meat Boy have almost no budget at all and yet some of them seem to sell very well.  People do vote with their wallets, it's just that the onslaught of aggressive marketing of blockbuster titles with AAA marketing budgets means that people go with what they know first and foremost.  Once again, it's the same with all forms of entertainment - ALL of them.  Black Ops had issues AFTER it sold, not before.  People didn't know of these issues UNTIL they had spent their money.  This is how broken shit has always sold well because no matter how broken it was, it was properly and effectively marketed.  That doesn't equate to people not wanting creative game ideas.  It equates to the effectiveness of a good marketing campaign and that's all.
 
You're not agreeing to disagree, you're disagreeing and ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.  That's not the same thing.
#35 Posted by Fjordson (2450 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
" Sorry Pach, but once again no.  Do your job goddam correctly and show some depth of analysis.  Compared to the excessive marketing budget of blockbuster titles, smaller indie titles like Super Meat Boy have almost no budget at all and yet some of them seem to sell very well.  People do vote with their wallets, it's just that the onslaught of aggressive marketing of blockbuster titles with AAA marketing budgets means that people go with what they know first and foremost.  Once again, it's the same with all forms of entertainment - ALL of them.  Black Ops had issues AFTER it sold, not before.  People didn't know of these issues UNTIL they had spent their money.  This is how broken shit has always sold well because no matter how broken it was, it was properly and effectively marketed.  That doesn't equate to people not wanting creative game ideas.  It equates to the effectiveness of a good marketing campaign and that's all.  You're not agreeing to disagree, you're disagreeing and ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.  That's not the same thing. "
Right. And you know where people will be next year at this time? Complaining about their copy of Modern Warfare 3.
#36 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Fjordson said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" Sorry Pach, but once again no.  Do your job goddam correctly and show some depth of analysis.  Compared to the excessive marketing budget of blockbuster titles, smaller indie titles like Super Meat Boy have almost no budget at all and yet some of them seem to sell very well.  People do vote with their wallets, it's just that the onslaught of aggressive marketing of blockbuster titles with AAA marketing budgets means that people go with what they know first and foremost.  Once again, it's the same with all forms of entertainment - ALL of them.  Black Ops had issues AFTER it sold, not before.  People didn't know of these issues UNTIL they had spent their money.  This is how broken shit has always sold well because no matter how broken it was, it was properly and effectively marketed.  That doesn't equate to people not wanting creative game ideas.  It equates to the effectiveness of a good marketing campaign and that's all.  You're not agreeing to disagree, you're disagreeing and ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.  That's not the same thing. "
Right. And you know where people will be next year at this time? Complaining about their copy of Modern Warfare 3. "
And that will be a testament to the power of Activision's marketing machine and not to the lack of desire for creative ideas.  The same is true of MS products, AVATAR and the Star Wars prequels.  All lacking creativity at some level, all having lots of visible issues and ALL of them heavily marketed.  The industry needs to stop lying about what drives sales.
#37 Posted by Baillie (4247 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @Fjordson said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" Sorry Pach, but once again no.  Do your job goddam correctly and show some depth of analysis.  Compared to the excessive marketing budget of blockbuster titles, smaller indie titles like Super Meat Boy have almost no budget at all and yet some of them seem to sell very well.  People do vote with their wallets, it's just that the onslaught of aggressive marketing of blockbuster titles with AAA marketing budgets means that people go with what they know first and foremost.  Once again, it's the same with all forms of entertainment - ALL of them.  Black Ops had issues AFTER it sold, not before.  People didn't know of these issues UNTIL they had spent their money.  This is how broken shit has always sold well because no matter how broken it was, it was properly and effectively marketed.  That doesn't equate to people not wanting creative game ideas.  It equates to the effectiveness of a good marketing campaign and that's all.  You're not agreeing to disagree, you're disagreeing and ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.  That's not the same thing. "
Right. And you know where people will be next year at this time? Complaining about their copy of Modern Warfare 3. "
And that will be a testament to the power of Activision's marketing machine and not to the lack of desire for creative ideas.  The same is true of MS products, AVATAR and the Star Wars prequels.  All lacking creativity at some level, all having lots of visible issues and ALL of them heavily marketed.  The industry needs to stop lying about what drives sales. "
Everyone knows what to expect from a call of duty game, and yet more sales are happening with every game. Don't blame treyarch for creating a game that everyone plays. It's all your own faults if you don't like it - though you all clearly do.
#38 Edited by McFly (63 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:

" @Fjordson said:

" @SeriouslyNow said:
" Sorry Pach, but once again no.  Do your job goddam correctly and show some depth of analysis.  Compared to the excessive marketing budget of blockbuster titles, smaller indie titles like Super Meat Boy have almost no budget at all and yet some of them seem to sell very well.  People do vote with their wallets, it's just that the onslaught of aggressive marketing of blockbuster titles with AAA marketing budgets means that people go with what they know first and foremost.  Once again, it's the same with all forms of entertainment - ALL of them.  Black Ops had issues AFTER it sold, not before.  People didn't know of these issues UNTIL they had spent their money.  This is how broken shit has always sold well because no matter how broken it was, it was properly and effectively marketed.  That doesn't equate to people not wanting creative game ideas.  It equates to the effectiveness of a good marketing campaign and that's all.  You're not agreeing to disagree, you're disagreeing and ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.  That's not the same thing. "
Right. And you know where people will be next year at this time? Complaining about their copy of Modern Warfare 3. "
And that will be a testament to the power of Activision's marketing machine and not to the lack of desire for creative ideas.  The same is true of MS products, AVATAR and the Star Wars prequels.  All lacking creativity at some level, all having lots of visible issues and ALL of them heavily marketed.  The industry needs to stop lying about what drives sales. "
If done well, both marketing and creativity can drive sales. I agree with your earlier point, creativity is usually appreciated by players, maybe not in terms of blockbuster numbers but a good word of mouth at least helps sales. Limbo, Super Meat Boy, Amnesia, Recettear, VVVVVV - none of them were heavily marketed (like BLOPS) and all relied on fan appreciation and ended up doing quite well in terms of sales. There are some exceptions - Vanquish is possibly the best third person shooter this genre and no one seems to have played that game - but in general; good, creative games tend to make money.
 
In case of Amnesia, the fan appreciation and Steam promotion even secured Frictional's financial future:  http://frictionalgames.blogspot.com/2011/01/four-months-after-amnesias-release.html.
#39 Posted by FancySoapsMan (5841 posts) -
@KaosAngel said:
" He reinvented the FPS, and all you people bought it.  I don't understand people who hate COD...all of you buy it and bitch non-stop the months after. "
Agrred.
 
People just like to bitch and moan.
#40 Edited by zameer (606 posts) -
@McFly said: 

In case of Amnesia, the fan appreciation and Steam promotion even secured Frictional's financial future:  http://frictionalgames.blogspot.com/2011/01/four-months-after-amnesias-release.html.   

That's just awesome. Stories about how XBLA/PSN/Steam help a small indie developer out always warm my heart.   
 
And I really don't see why bitching and moaning — if couched in well-reasoned arguments — is a bad thing. It's pretty easy to ignore the non-constructive criticisms. Developers that fail to react to consumer sentiment pay the price eventually; we're starting to see that with some Japanese developers losing their hold over the Western market.  
 
If anything I think MW3's a great time to shake things up because critics and gamers alike expect it to be garbage (perhaps unfairly so).
#41 Posted by WinterSnowblind (7617 posts) -

If you listen to the type of gamers who spend their days playing games like CoD, I agree with what they're saying.  But considering these guys are responsibility for a great deal of rehashes, I don't understand why they're the ones complaining about this.  And on the flip side, look at games like Minecraft, which are made by small development teams, without publishers or advertising, are completely unique and creative.. and go on to sell millions. 
 
Gamers will buy into original and unique ideas, but they also have to be good.  I don't care if a game is really inventive or "artsy" if the gameplay sucks.

#42 Posted by raiz265 (2239 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:
" He's right, well generally speaking...  BUT FUCKING TREYARCH SHOULDN'T OPEN THEIR FUCKING MOUTHS "
You should quit writing on those forums maybe. 
 
"Treyarch hate" is so stupid... On the other hand people then praise Infinity Ward and MW2 like it's baby jesus or something.
#43 Posted by danimal_furry (1453 posts) -

I don't see anything wrong with the general message he is sending. If a series stagnates, people complain. If a franchise tries to freshen up with new and creative ideas, people complain. He wasn't addressing the gameplay issues in his comment. He was merely responding to the criticism against creativity in the gaming industry, and making a correct point that without this creativity games would all be a generic and boring mess. Sometimes the "new ideas" don't work, but they have to try something fresh every now and then.    
#44 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

Treyarch tried something creative?

#45 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -
@danimal_furry said:
" I don't see anything wrong with the general message he is sending. If a series stagnates, people complain. If a franchise tries to freshen up with new and creative ideas, people complain. He wasn't addressing the gameplay issues in his comment. He was merely responding to the criticism against creativity in the gaming industry, and making a correct point that without this creativity games would all be a generic and boring mess. Sometimes the "new ideas" don't work, but they have to try something fresh every now and then.     "
Its just, Treyarch have never been creative. Let a creative dev say this. Treyarch just let IW try new things then they copy and expand on that. Unless they think their zombie mode was innovative, lol. They're part of the problem, then they complain about a problem they propagate. Its silly. Let Platinum say this, they earned the right.
#46 Posted by Pie (7109 posts) -
@ryanwho: But isn't he saying that the reason they don't innovate is because people would get all up in arms about it?
#47 Posted by danimal_furry (1453 posts) -
@ryanwho said:
" @danimal_furry said:
" I don't see anything wrong with the general message he is sending. If a series stagnates, people complain. If a franchise tries to freshen up with new and creative ideas, people complain. He wasn't addressing the gameplay issues in his comment. He was merely responding to the criticism against creativity in the gaming industry, and making a correct point that without this creativity games would all be a generic and boring mess. Sometimes the "new ideas" don't work, but they have to try something fresh every now and then.     "
Its just, Treyarch have never been creative. Let a creative dev say this. Treyarch just let IW try new things then they copy and expand on that. Unless they think their zombie mode was innovative, lol. They're part of the problem, then they complain about a problem they propagate. Its silly. Let Platinum say this, they earned the right. "

I gotcha. Good point.
#48 Edited by Jeust (10757 posts) -

He's the Community Manager! He has nothing to do with the game creation.  
 

 Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by “pundits” and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do.    

He forgot the main reason we're in this spiral is the increasingly larger budgets applied to game development that require broad acceptance from the consumer market.  
 
There have always been people that dislike or trash games, but never like now were their buy necessary to realize a sizeable profit. 
#49 Posted by Skald (4369 posts) -

Who gets to wade through more hate messages than the Black Ops community manager? Of course he feels that way. And in the long run, he's right, but it still seems funny that the guy with the least creative game of the year has to come out and say that.

#50 Posted by Brendan (7845 posts) -

Regardless of the games he makes, his words are correct. 

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