A Gem of a Jam: Capcom's Latest Street Fighter x Tekken Announcement Draws Predictable Ire

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#51 Posted by FateOfNever (1758 posts) -

This gem thing sounds kinda pretty awful, on several levels, with only a hint of "well...maaaaaybe this could work." As for why it's awful, eh, it's pretty much been covered by everyone else at this point.

As for Capcom and their awful PR lately - to break the cycle they have to do something, something BIG to show good will to the fans. Telling the fans "hey, buy this 40$ DLC and make your old 60$ disc obsolete and useless while you're at it" and "Hey, we're canning MML3 and throwing away the who knows how many hours of player done work that our fans did for that game" and "here's this gem system, by the way, pre-order bonuses and dlc and collector's edition exclusive gems, so, you know, keep paying us if you want to stay competitive in this game" and "here's the new DMC game, out of nowhere, done by a totally different team with a totally new Dante!" and "We heard you liked iterations of Street Fighter, so pay us 40$ to obsolete your 60$ game, and then we're going to balance the game a short time later by adding clearly unbalanced characters to the game!" (not to mention things like the RE4 and RECVX collection games and their minimal effort do anything with either of those games) and just one thing after another after another and making all of these questionable, if not down right money grabbing moves and telling the fans "but it's ok, because next time we'll treat you better!" and then doing it again... and then again... There's just no reason to believe Capcom is willing to do anything as a sign of good will towards the fans, even minor things like making an "ultimate" or "super" iteration of a game cheaper DLC, or release their fighting game that will assuredly get an iteration 6 months down the line cheaper than 60$ at launch, and so on. They burnt their good will towards the community at just about every turn they could, and they have no one to blame for people being upset at questionable moves but themselves at this point.

#52 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@Googly said:

Sometimes, people just want pure honest fighting.

Nobody wants bullshit systems that alter the game in stupid ways. So essentially, agreed.

#53 Posted by Marcness (53 posts) -

I believe Killian is underestimating both the potential of the Gem system and the fans' ability to find ways to exploit game engines far beyond what the developers can find.

I side with the people that think that the Gem system can cause a game-breaking calamity. Kinda reminds me about the Ratio system back in Capcom vs. SNK 2. An R4 Hibiki in the right hands is pretty unstoppable. A speed-type character should not possess such strength and defense, as it just throws off the balance of the game GREATLY. I think someone in the comments mentioned this: the Gem system is counterintuitive to all the effort the developers put into balancing the characters in the first place.

Capcom means well to give lesser players a chance to come out on top in the Gem system, but fails to see how game-breaking the Gems can be in the hands of a high-level player.

Sure, Auto-Guard requires Cross Meter in able to work, but who's to say that a player can't fill their meter fast enough to make Auto-Guard seemingly infinite? From what I observed, you only need one level in your Cross Meter to perform an Auto-Guard. I'm sure there are characters that can stock up one level pretty easily. Let's take my main, Zangief, for example. In most cases, Zangief can add a pretty big chunk of meter with just a SPD. Consider that while an opponent is in an SPD, they can neither defend nor attack to stop Zangief from getting that chunk of meter, right? Add the fact that this game features chain combos and high juggling potential. If played right, Zangief can build one level of meter before the opponent has an opportunity to counter. Well, that's theory, since I don't know if a SPD will give a chunk of meter in SFxT or not. But, I hope you understand my illustration. I feel that the Gem system will do more damage to the game's integrity in the eyes of high-competition players than not.

#54 Posted by Jrinswand (1692 posts) -

Good god, Alex. So you're saying that fighting game fans' reactions could be compared to the reactions of the Allied Powers in the beginning of World War I? Logical fallacy much?

#55 Posted by Mesoian (1570 posts) -
@keef said:

@Mesoian said:

@keef said:

Companies seem to have caught a case of the retards, as of late:

  • Dice releases BF 3 for PC, requires Origin to play / not available on Steam
  • Google integrates Reader into Google+, now allowing you to specify who you want to share stories with (awesome), but kills sharing of stories in Reader itself.
  • Capcom creates what looks to be a super awesome and well-balanced Street Fighter vs. Tekken--who'd have thought would it would turn out so good--and threatens to gum the game up and alienate its target audience with a "Gem" system no one wants.

Also, Facebook keeps needlessly changing.

To be fair, the first two aren't retarded, they are very deliberate attempts to pull people away from the industry norm and into their own product which is, at least externally, fairly different from how other things work.

So the first two were deliberately retarded, while the third is inadvertently retarded.

Again, you're confusing retardation and consumerism.
#56 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -

So... I am the only one who's really loving the Gem system so far? It looks like it will be fun, and discovering how to use their potential sounds even better. The only thing that should be the target of rage is the pre-order bonus and DLC thing... But i think they could even things out by making the Pre-Order Bonus available for YOU when you fight against someone who has them. It would be just for that match and it would be fair since i don't think you should be able to buy advantages, but you should be able to buy new ways to play your game; but i don't think that will be the case. Even so, it looks like they're balancing the Pre-Order Bonus and the DLC, so it will be alright, i guess.

#57 Posted by Lydian_Sel (2450 posts) -

Alex gets 5 points for the world play in the article's title and is awarded an addition 3 points for using the term "Boss-Eyed".

#58 Posted by ichthy (450 posts) -
#59 Posted by Shisnopi (78 posts) -

I just feel like the pros are going to exploit the living hell of it. Like, " If you take Zangief and King with these 3 Gems, you can win a match in 15 hits."

#60 Edited by lokey013 (109 posts) -

After the debacle of Super Street Fighter IV and Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3.....I think I'm gonna hold off for big name releases and just wait for their "upgraded" counterparts.... I know it's a business....but think Capcom has really been crappin on their community as of late....=/

#61 Posted by Maitimo (175 posts) -

It seems a lot like Capcom's ideas about creating accessibility actually aren't; they're really more like gimmicks intended to differentiate one game from the next, since the company seems really big on having new things for their own sake. Otherwise the designers should have taken cues from something like HD Remix and tried sensible things like simplifying the inputs. After all, the execution gap is probably the biggest (psychological) barrier to entry for the genre.

That said, SFxT is the only upcoming Capcom game worth caring about, so I hope they work it all out somehow.

#62 Posted by cikame (924 posts) -

You know what i enjoy most about kung fu fights?

gems.....

#63 Posted by DocHaus (1286 posts) -

This might sound like a stupid comment but...why put all this extra shit in the game in the first place? You have characters from the Tekken and Street Fighter franchises, you have them punching and kicking each other, maybe punctuated with the occasional EX/Super/Ultra move. Do you really need any more than that?

I'm guessing the answer is "extra cash from raging fanboys who will complain but still pay for the damn thing with the game comes out," isn't it?

#64 Posted by Veektarius (4137 posts) -

I can see why it ticks people off, but it has nothing to do with why Capcom's a bad company nowadays, which is because it rips people off by making them pay lots of new dollars for mostly old stuff.

#65 Posted by autobzooty (96 posts) -

MML3 Twitter disaster aside, I'm not sure if this is a PR problem as much as a Capcom problem. Seth can whisper sweet nothings into fans' ears all damn day, but a knee to the groin is a knee to the groin. I'm looking at you, UMvC3.

#66 Posted by BooDoug187 (334 posts) -

Just put in an option to turn off gems or be able to select an option to play in a gem sever/match and everything will be fine.

#67 Posted by Boiglenoight (512 posts) -

@Mesoian said:

@keef said:

@Mesoian said:

@keef said:

Companies seem to have caught a case of the retards, as of late:

  • Dice releases BF 3 for PC, requires Origin to play / not available on Steam
  • Google integrates Reader into Google+, now allowing you to specify who you want to share stories with (awesome), but kills sharing of stories in Reader itself.
  • Capcom creates what looks to be a super awesome and well-balanced Street Fighter vs. Tekken--who'd have thought would it would turn out so good--and threatens to gum the game up and alienate its target audience with a "Gem" system no one wants.

Also, Facebook keeps needlessly changing.

To be fair, the first two aren't retarded, they are very deliberate attempts to pull people away from the industry norm and into their own product which is, at least externally, fairly different from how other things work.

So the first two were deliberately retarded, while the third is inadvertently retarded.

Again, you're confusing retardation and consumerism.

Giving the consumer what they want: not retarded.

Forcing the consumer to accept something they don't want, in order to get what they want: retarded.

Capcom sounds like it's trying to experiment with gems as a revenue stream, rather than exploring the gameplay of the fighting game genre. If they release Street Fighter vs. Tekken with a vanilla or "normal" mode, where gems don't factor into the gameplay at all, then no problem.

#68 Posted by msavo (7522 posts) -

I was going to get this game. Even though I don't like Capcom at all anymore I'm a big enough Tekken fan that I want to see those guys fight the Street Fighter dudes. Now I couldn't care less and it's because of this fucking system. I hope when Tekken X Street Fighter comes out it is just a Tekken ass Tekken game with some crazy over the top stories and endings.

#69 Posted by GlenTennis (3143 posts) -

My main problem was pointed out on Frame Trap last night and it's that in their official promo that said something along with "gems get rid of the most common fighting game problems" and one of those problems was something like "player skill gaps." But in the interview with Gamasutra Killian said that it won't make that much of a difference.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be as good as the best when I play a fighting game. I want to work over time to make myself better, I mean isn't that the whole point?

#70 Edited by Mesoian (1570 posts) -
@keef said:

@Mesoian said:

@keef said:

@Mesoian said:

@keef said:

Companies seem to have caught a case of the retards, as of late:

  • Dice releases BF 3 for PC, requires Origin to play / not available on Steam
  • Google integrates Reader into Google+, now allowing you to specify who you want to share stories with (awesome), but kills sharing of stories in Reader itself.
  • Capcom creates what looks to be a super awesome and well-balanced Street Fighter vs. Tekken--who'd have thought would it would turn out so good--and threatens to gum the game up and alienate its target audience with a "Gem" system no one wants.

Also, Facebook keeps needlessly changing.

To be fair, the first two aren't retarded, they are very deliberate attempts to pull people away from the industry norm and into their own product which is, at least externally, fairly different from how other things work.

So the first two were deliberately retarded, while the third is inadvertently retarded.

Again, you're confusing retardation and consumerism.

Giving the consumer what they want: not retarded.

Forcing the consumer to accept something they don't want, in order to get what they want: retarded.

Capcom sounds like it's trying to experiment with gems as a revenue stream, rather than exploring the gameplay of the fighting game genre. If they release Street Fighter vs. Tekken with a vanilla or "normal" mode, where gems don't factor into the gameplay at all, then no problem.

The problem is, no one outside of Capcom has been able to actually playtest using these gems; they won't until maybe Ultimate NorCAL vs. Capcom 2 next Wednesday. Game balance wise, we really don't know what to expect, other than that the gem system may be a tremendous white hole that gets notoriously exploited months after release. No one WANTED xfactor when Marvel 3 was being shown off originally, but we got used to it, though universally people thought it needed to be rebalanced to keep things like...well...what happens at every tournament final for the game from happening. No one WANTED the DHC glitch in Marvel to be a thing, but it was a thing, and people got used to it and grew accustomed to it to the point where Capcom didn't feel they needed to remove it (though it is gone in Ultimate). 
 
As for the handling of distribution of the gems? The jury's still out on that and I agree that of your three examples, the one that would truly be retarded is if they decided to nickle and dime people for +5% damage increase on combos over 4 hits. I harken back to what Jeff said on last week's bombcast, and I will paraphrase, "The only reason why people are not completely flipping out over Skylanders is that Activision found a way to mask micro-transactions in the form of a physical gimmick. All those characters and stages are already in the game but kids will want the physical manifestation of those game elements in their hands." This is the exact opposite of Skylanders where, if not on disc, new gems can be added in regular intervals with a script that is less than a few k in size and will take minimal if any real effort. All the stat buffs possible will have to be located on the disc somewhere and, if this goes forward, we will be paying for keys to unlock that content that other people who don't have the money won't have. If gems cannot be turned off like Ono has stated, Capcom will have split the market for SFxT upon inception. 
 
That would be stupid. I won't even say it's retarded as retardation implies that it was simply a natural occurrence that couldn't be helped. The DHC Glitch was retarded. If the gem system works as previously indicated, it would be stupid, greedy, malicious, and pretty much eliminate the game from any north american tournament play altogether.  It's a very easy way to bury your game before it even comes out. 
 
What's even more perplexing though is that Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 has the gem mode in Heroes and Heralds mode, but that is completely separate, and people are totally fine with it. A lot of people are actually excited about it because it's a silly thing they can fool around with, not spend money on, and still have the sanctity of vanilla ultimate (dear lord that's confusing...) if they want to play regularly. I know that Capcom dev teams work independently of one another and don't really talk to each other during the development process (which is why we see things like different netcodes or lack of matchmaking or why there isn't a universal standard for match recording yet [WHICH IS NUTS BY THE WAY]), but it looks super bad when games that are being worked on concurrently are actively making very easily avoided mistakes due to lack of communication or an understanding of the vibe of your core community. It's bizarre. 
 
Capcom makes the most bizarre mistakes out of any other game dev out there.
#71 Posted by ajamafalous (11591 posts) -

Maybe people would like Capcom again if they weren't making the worst decisions at every fucking turn
 
Can you remember the last time Capcom was in the news for doing something right?

#72 Posted by CharAznable (758 posts) -

Alex, you could not have picked a more perfect screenshot than the one at the end. Bravo.

#73 Posted by Mesoian (1570 posts) -
@ajamafalous said:
Maybe people would like Capcom again if they weren't making the worst decisions at every fucking turn
 
Can you remember the last time Capcom was in the news for doing something right?
And that's the thing. No. I really can't. I play and buy Capcom games regularly but I cannot remember the last time they were in the news for a game announcement that everyone wanted, or if they were, that announcement wasn't ruined by some other meter of bad news WITHIN A MATTER OF HOURS! 
 
It's nuts. It's literally crazy. I don't understand how they haven't completely let their marketing or PR divisions go.
#74 Posted by MindChamber (332 posts) -

@Alex: Lol ya, Id be offended too

<3

#75 Posted by Kyle (2323 posts) -

@Alex said:

@Baltimore: Hey! I'm not Patrick!

Ha! Oh, Patrick. You and your jokes. They get me every time.

#76 Posted by ArbitraryWater (10992 posts) -

The gem system seems like the kind of thing that would help people online beat me into a pulp even faster than usual. So count me as somewhat skeptical here.

#77 Posted by UltimAXE (344 posts) -

All they need to do is make the gems an optional side mode, and the problem is gone, because similar systems have existed in fighting games before. Soul Edge and some of the Calibur games have different weapons and equipment with different stats. Tekken 6 did that as well. Marvel Super Heroes has power ups that you can collect, but never have to activate. Fucking Ultimate MvC3 has this card thing that lets your characters parry and turn invisible and stuff. And nobody cares because it's not part of the main game. Capcom should probably stop being so stubborn and do the same with SFxT, because the last thing anyone like me needs to do is find himself fighting against a tournament-worthy opponent with +20% damage or meter gain.

Then there's the side issue of Capcom's newfound relationship with its fans, which should probably just stop. This is what leads to scenarios where they post a "Which characters do you want to see in Marvel Vs. Capcom 3?!" on an official Capcom website and Mega Man and Venom are the top picks and when they're missing from two games in a row everyone gets pissed off. Or they get negative feedback from Devil May Cry fans at every turn and completely ignore them. If you want to do your own thing as a business, great, but stop making your consumers think that their input has any bearing on your products. Reign it in a little bit.

#78 Posted by Drebin_893 (2872 posts) -

Great article, thanks Alex.

#79 Posted by Junpei (698 posts) -

I've been actively awaiting this game. When they announced the gem stuff I thought it was going to be a side mode or optional tweak. When they came out and said it is a standard part of every mode in the game I got wary. As someone who just got into playing fighting and following the tournament scene in more than a passive way this concerns me. While it is interesting to see all the ways this can play out I'm really curious to see how the tournament and pro scenes take this. I can see it being a side tourney for a while and then getting left behind if it becomes to easy to break the balancing with these gems or even with Pandora mode. I'm still gonna buy it and play it (hell, I got the SFxT fight stick for my birthday) but I hope this works out cause right now I see a lot of ways it can go wrong.

#80 Posted by Junpei (698 posts) -

@lokey013:In Capcom's defense somewhat, they have been doing the upgraded versions of fighters for a while. I think the major issue is that in the past they have had to do that because there wasn't the online capability of patches and dlc that we have now. I think it worked out ok with SF4. Super came out around a year and half later if I recall and was enough of an add on to justify the disc. Arcade Edition was just characters and rebalancing so the option to go DLC was alright although I do wish it was a bit cheaper.

Marvel is getting a lot added in and tweaked but the fact that it is coming out within a year of the original is what rubs me the wrong way on that one. At least they aren't charging full price for it.

#81 Posted by YukoAsho (1948 posts) -

Yeah, I've been following this, and I think I'll be sitting out on SFxT, at least for now. Maybe wait for the Super version while I play MK9 and pick up KOFXIII.

#82 Posted by LiquidPenguins (181 posts) -

I don't see what the big deal about exclusive gems is. Obviously every gem will be included in the inevitable re-release of SFxTK six to twelve months after release.

#83 Edited by GorillaMoPena (1684 posts) -

They should totally just call the "gems" "power stones"

Then I could ignore all the messed up problems

#84 Posted by TadThuggish (882 posts) -

I think it's sad that the only time a Japanese publisher seems to "get" the internet is when they're microtransactioning you to death.

#85 Posted by Little_Socrates (5649 posts) -

I was not finding myself interested in this title. Now I'm sure I don't want it. I think Jared's nailed it, and I also refuse to trust Capcom when it comes to balancing. Like...have you seen the Marvel vs. Capcom or Street Fighter games? They've NEVER been balanced well enough to add MORE complications!

#86 Posted by Shaka999 (424 posts) -

As plenty of people have said, I can see why the hardcore would be upset over that. They'll most likely get over it.

What everyone should be up in arms about is the continuing bullshit created by store preorder bonuses. Can we please stop preordering things? Please? This is getting ridiculous.

#87 Posted by NovaDTH (139 posts) -

So it'll be like every Capcom release since SFIV. Capcom fanboys will bitch and moan but buy it anyway.

#88 Posted by DocHaus (1286 posts) -
@NovaDTH said:

So it'll be like every Capcom release since SFIV. Capcom fanboys will bitch and moan but buy it anyway.

Don't worry, gamers in general are notorious for sending a message to companies that try to screw them over, with steadfastly boycotting games produced by developers or publishers that violate their princi...
...never mind. You're probably right.
#89 Posted by Peanut (952 posts) -

Why not mention the fact that Capcom has been making a lot of seemingly dastardly cash grabs as a reason for this amount of backlash? Things like UMvC3 and DR2:OtR just rub people the wrong way. Even as a fan of both of those franchises, the very thought of them irks me.  
 
Couple that with something like this, a system put in place to seemingly try and get you to buy more (potentially) overpriced DLC. Fighting game fans are going to want the absolute best possible chance to win in every circumstance, telling them that they'll need to go buy the "10x damage gem" is just shitting in their face. So, it's balanced in-game because the bigger the effect, the more difficult it is to pull off, but does balance mean it's OK to monetize the system? I don't think so. 

#90 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@Little_Socrates said:

I was not finding myself interested in this title. Now I'm sure I don't want it. I think Jared's nailed it, and I also refuse to trust Capcom when it comes to balancing. Like...have you seen the Marvel vs. Capcom or Street Fighter games? They've NEVER been balanced well enough to add MORE complications!

Street Fighter III had poor balance, but Super Street Fighter IV: AE has some of the best balance in a fighting game yet. Even though Yun, Fei Long and Yang are the top tier characters they're far from unbeatable, and people using lower tier characters such as Cody are still able to compete.

So yeah I don't think Street Fighter is a good example to use as being poorly balanced, Street Fighter II wasn't too bad balance wise either, just III is the red herring.

MvC3 had decent balance, aside from Dark Phoenix.

#91 Posted by SilverPR (33 posts) -

This thing will go away if they just said that you can turn the Gem System off in any mode including in a online lobby if you like. The ranked part could be a problem thought, they should make optional for a ranked match with the Gem System off.

#92 Edited by MasturbatingestBear (1174 posts) -

Preorder only gems? But Gems are meant to balance out the gameplay. That makes no sense to have some exclusive to different places.

Also another great article Alex.

#93 Posted by Little_Socrates (5649 posts) -

@Sooty said:

@Little_Socrates said:

I was not finding myself interested in this title. Now I'm sure I don't want it. I think Jared's nailed it, and I also refuse to trust Capcom when it comes to balancing. Like...have you seen the Marvel vs. Capcom or Street Fighter games? They've NEVER been balanced well enough to add MORE complications!

Street Fighter III had poor balance, but Super Street Fighter IV: AE has some of the best balance in a fighting game yet. Even though Yun, Fei Long and Yang are the top tier characters they're far from unbeatable, and people using lower tier characters such as Cody are still able to compete.

So yeah I don't think Street Fighter is a good example to use as being poorly balanced, Street Fighter II wasn't too bad balance wise either, just III is the red herring.

MvC3 had decent balance, aside from Dark Phoenix.

They aren't unbeatable, it's true. But that game doesn't have a system of gem power-ups on top of it, including pre-order gems. MvC3 doesn't have any totally BROKEN characters other than Dark Phoenix in terms of power-level, but there's a handful who are just straight-up useless.

#94 Posted by DarkbeatDK (1188 posts) -

I'm getting flashbacks to the confusing -ism system of Capcom vs SNK 2. Seems like a good game, but feels unapproachable for a casual fighter like me.

#95 Posted by Axdemon (66 posts) -

As a guy that knows pretty much nothing about how to play fighting games, I picked up both SFIV and MvC3, hoping to use the games as learning platforms. Both times, I failed spectacularly in the effort to improve my skills, despite every attempt made by Capcom to make the games more approachable by a broader audience. Now, I'm sure there were plenty of dudes that picked up SFIV for their first fighting game and carried on just fine, some people have a greater affinity for these things than I do, but for me the problem was never about knowing how to block or pull off a complicated combo. Many times, I've heard fighting games referred to as a dance, so let me borrow that metaphor and say that I have no rhythm. Seeing a flurry of punches and kicks makes no sense to me on screen. I see pros playing these games and they look no different than when the game is played by my amateur friends, there's no place that can provide me with the comprehension of what a good play-style looks like and involves.

Capcom needs to figure out a way to teach new people how to play their game, adding more modifiers to it to alter the rules is just going to teach them to play it wrong.

#96 Posted by spiceninja (3052 posts) -

Capcom really needs to get their shit together.

#97 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

I was a little peeved when Capcom announced Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3, since I bought MvC3 earlier this year. Capcom pulls these stunts because they know that people are going to buy their games. I'm not going to pay an extra $40 to play Ultimate, no matter how much I enjoy the game.

#98 Posted by reruns (62 posts) -

@DarkbeatDK: I feel like the obvious solution is to have predefined sets of gems to give you someplace to start with. It worked really well for the perks system in Modern Warfare.

#99 Posted by Salesmunn (75 posts) -

If they just make the gems and extra gear an option for the matches, then they're fine.

#100 Edited by Treppass (118 posts) -

people make me smile when anything new scares them. im sure capcom will try and balance the new system, cant blame them for trying somthing new. and in regards to the money making DLC, if you can't justify spending the money then here is a solution, dont buy it. i can hardly imagine there will be a gem out there that is game breaking.

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