The framerate in this game is something else..

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#51 Edited by TruthTellah (8725 posts) -

@Wong_Fei_Hung said:

@TruthTellah:

I don't, and don't even own the game ; /

Wait, you don't even own the game or have experience with its frame rate issues and yet you're carrying on this prolonged argument?

You can see how insane that might come off to someone, right? I thought you were just genuinely displeased and thus wanting to argue til the cows came home, but, man, if you don't really care about it, perhaps just walk away? I mean, no one is benefiting from continuing to try to convince you here. It's probably time to just stop replying and walk away for the benefit of everyone involved.

#52 Posted by MideonNViscera (2257 posts) -

@TruthTellah said:

@Wong_Fei_Hung said:

@TruthTellah:

I don't, and don't even own the game ; /

Wait, you don't even own the game or have experience with its frame rate issues and yet you're carrying on this prolonged argument?

You can see how insane that might come off to someone, right? I thought you were just genuinely displeased and thus wanting to argue til the cows came home, but, man, if you don't really care about it, perhaps just walk away? I mean, no one is benefiting from continuing to try to convince you here. It's probably time to stop replying and just walk away for the benefit of everyone here.

That's the nice version of what I said haha

#53 Edited by Wong_Fei_Hung (642 posts) -

@TruthTellah said:

@Wong_Fei_Hung said:

@TruthTellah:

I don't, and don't even own the game ; /

Wait, you don't even own the game or have experience with its frame rate issues and yet you're carrying on this prolonged argument?

You can see how insane that might come off to someone, right? I thought you were just genuinely displeased and thus wanting to argue til the cows came home, but, man, if you don't really care about it, perhaps just walk away? I mean, no one is benefiting from continuing to try to convince you here. It's probably time to just stop replying and walk away for the benefit of everyone involved.

Haha!, look back at my posts, nothing suggests i'm angry. I have played the game, albeit a Japanese version which is worse. I'm actually big fan of the developers, they created one of my favourite games on Saturn (GH).

Let me clarify my standpoint once and for all. The way I see it, this is an all party issue, no one party is to blame. It's also an issue which I think breaks from the norm. I know many game have issues like this.. This game isn't "broken", not the Japanese or the NA version, I have never once said it is, I merely agreed with the OP, knowing how it feels to buy a game and have a little issue like this which can ruin it.

When a company claims it's technically enhanced, and aims to imply the enhancement relates to the known issues of a prior version, then I think there is an issue with that.

Atlus: if they were going to claim it was improved, should have made sure it really was improved, after all, a repeat of what happened in Japan would not be good for sales. if they wanted to avoid that, they should have made attempts to make sure via the developers.

Nintendo: They should have been aware of the earlier issues with the Japanese version, and also aware that Atlus were advertising this version as being technically improved, they should have sought assurances and some evidence of this. Nintendo didn't take it upon themselves to do this, if they had this would not have happened.

On their download services, they're extremely nit picky with smaller devs, why couldn't they have been as picky with this cart release?. I personally suspect having a game of this type in the West was their only concern.

I know It's only Nintendo's role to make sure software has a certain level of quality, and doesn't have content which breaks from their rules. I am well aware of this. this doesn't however make their standpoint right, which is to do nothing. Nintendo should be always be unhappy if false advertising result in this, and if the company lacks policies which prevent this kind of thing from happening, they should look to address that in future. That's why i asked the Op to send an e-mail to Nintendo also. I know they don't do this currently!, but they should and they can. I don't expect Nintendo to check every game like this, only in these kind of circumstances where improvements are due.

#54 Posted by Freshbandito (678 posts) -

@Wong_Fei_Hung: Bugger me, you really are paranoid and/or delusional aren't you? convinced that people are leaping on alt accounts instead of just realising that you're the only one who believes what you're saying. This is pointless, carry on believing what you will, the rest of the thread will be looking on shaking their heads in disbelief.

Once again you cite nebulous 'Software' you could just google my username and discover it being used for other forums or the like, no need to be that creepy internet stalker guy who gets in an argument on the internet then takes it so personally that he freaks out and stalks people disagreeing with him across boards, but then again you seem exactly that kind of crazy.

Hell of an alt account for someone to create it so long ago and pay for premium membership across most of them just in case they got in an argument with you haha, and just to clear the confusion, are you saying you plan on illegaly accessing account information to settle your petty argument? okay just checking, shame your magic software that you tout is no cure for short sighted stupidity haha.

I'm done here though, by all means spy on me and send hateful messages to my gamertag or whatever, just confirms my suspicions of your instability.

#55 Posted by _Chad (962 posts) -

@Freshbandito said:

@Wong_Fei_Hung: This is pointless, carry on believing what you will, the rest of the thread will be looking on shaking their heads in disbelief.

Pretty much. It did make for a great read though.

#56 Posted by Wong_Fei_Hung (642 posts) -

@Freshbandito:

Wow, relax dude, I wouldn't waste my time on any of that lark, i couldn't care less, I just found it very odd that you both seemed to focus on my poor wording earlier *devices*, despite me already clarifying that I meant PC's/ workstations...hooked up to interface devices.

Err, no thanks.... Are you sure?

#57 Posted by Gamer_152 (14066 posts) -

@Wong_Fei_Hung: Games programming student here. It is true that certain diagnostic tools exist for programs that are used to test the performance of games within the industry that could conceivably tell you about framerate or help identify issues with games hanging. Whether Nintendo use this internally or in what form they do, I don't know, but Hallinel claims to have at least some internal knowledge of their workings and says they don't, and with all due respect, you've yet to provide any evidence for your knowledge of the internal workings of these companies. Really though, this debate didn't need to become this big, because whether they have the diagnostic tools tools you're speaking about is irrelevant, someone in a QA department can just sit down, play the game, and go "Oh, the framerate isn't good and the game keeps hanging".

We must understand though that "technically enhanced" is a subjective term, there is no one metric that anyone (man or software) can measure to conclude whether something is "technically enhanced" or not. There's entirely room to dispute the claim, as there's room to dispute any subjective claim, but this is not anyone telling a "lie" as they're not talking about anything objective. I think when a game does not meet expected quality the blame is shared between publisher, developer, and to some degree console manufacturer. The developer are the ones doing the subpar work, but it's up to the publisher and manufacturer to certify that what they're releasing and putting onto a system reaches up to a certain bar.

If you want to say that something shouldn't have got through cert, I understand where you're coming from, if you want to say that the developer should release a patch, I understand where you're coming from, however, you kind of lose me at the point you start suggesting the publisher should order (not request, but order) the developer to make a patch. I have no kind of professional legal experience, but I am somewhat sceptical of your claim that all developers enter into a deal where the publisher can just order them to do whatever they want and they have to do it if the publisher thinks it's affecting their profits. Even if they could, how could you possibly establish as 100% truth that it was the technical issues with the game that were hampering sales?

I see a lot of people posting online, talking about the internal workings of games companies when they actually have no knowledge of these internal workings, and are criticising them just based on speculation. It's not fair on the companies and it's misinforming to the public. If you want to criticise their work as an outside observer, that's fine, but if you're going to talk about the behind-the-scenes stuff when it comes to how games are made, tell us how you know what you know about these companies, provide us with some sort of source for the claims you're making. If you have not done that, it seems entirely reasonable for people to question the validity of what you're saying.

Moderator
#58 Edited by Wong_Fei_Hung (642 posts) -

@Gamer_152:

Firstly, I don't know who this person is and whether his "claim" that he worked for Nintendo as a QA is true, I also fail to see how he has proved this like others who have posted claim. How has he proved this?.

Secondly, it may well be he has never had access to this sort of diagnostic software, because his role simply doesn't require it. Wouldn't his role be to check software alongside quality control guidelines set my Nintendo, and nothing at the deeper code level?.

We must understand though that "technically enhanced" is a subjective term,

I know and agree, that's the problem, They're vague and intentionally so. No company would highlight flaws from a earlier version, it wouldn't look good. In light of what we know about the Japanese version, most people would have naturally assumed they were referring to the FPS, or do you think I'm wrong here?.

It's an attempt to deceive in my eyes. perhaps not a straight out "lie", but certainly deceptive.

It's impossible to say, it's all dependant on the contract in question.

Request or order, it's the same thing, order being demanding in light of an issue that appears.

I didn't say "all" developers create clauses in contract that protect them like this. what i do know is that companies don't take risks like this, no company would, they cover themselves legally at every corner, even though it's very rare that a developer refuses to create a patch. It's in a developer's best interest most of the time to develop one.

I don't claim to have insight into the inner working of Atlus, Nintendo or any other company, I simply made educated guesses given the knowledge I have on what I know they do at particular facilities in Japan. In regards to this, their well documented stringent testing procedures at R&D, which would certainly require the diagnostics tools you speak of. In fact this recent feature on Nintendo site alludes to some of these tests.

As far as developer relations go, every now and then an article pops up that gives very rare insight into the company and how they work with developers, I don't bookmark them all to pull out in discussions. In addition, I also have very good friends who work in the industry, both in the development and media, who give me further insight. I merely connect the dots, I don't claim to work for such companies.

#59 Posted by Hailinel (24289 posts) -

@Wong_Fei_Hung: What do you want, a link to my LinkedIn profile? You're the one being crazy; particularly going on these ramblings about how Atlus should do this or do that when you didn't even realize for the majority of this thread that Atlus had no involvement in the game other than serving as the North American publisher.

#60 Posted by GrantHeaslip (1560 posts) -

@Wong_Fei_Hung said:

Please do show me within the this thread where I have said anything to the contrary?. Also, please do explain why you seemingly compare large disc based games, to that of these relatively small 3DS games?. This game is around 512mb, as most 3DS game are, It would not take weeks a you lamely try to imply, by referring to modern disc-based software.

It's you that are spouting.

@Freshbandito:

They have done nothing of the sort. Where is this "evidence" and "first-hand experience" you speak of?. I find it odd that the only people hung up on my poor wording earlier, is you and @GrantHeaslip - Are you now on an alt account? - LOL

I'm done with this thread -- I'm beginning to worry that I'm coming off just as badly as you for engaging in this -- but I have to come back on this because it's so ridiculous and so perfectly indicative of just how little of an idea of what the hell you're talking about you know.

The Linux kernel -- which to my knowledge is one of the largest and most source-code-heavy (i.e. light on binary assets) projects mankind has ever produced, contained nearly 15,000,000 lines of code as of earlier this year, which apparently compiles to close to 500 MB if everything is included. Games are nowhere near that much code -- for example, Doom 3's engine is 600,000 lines, and that game seems to be about 1.5 GB installed.

Console games almost certainly contain more code engine-wise, but the reason they're big is not because they contain a lot of code, it's because they contain a lot of assets (textures, videos, audio, etc.). Nobody with any serious knowledge of software development would claim that the size of a 3DS cart full of compiled code and assets somehow proves anything significant about code complexity.

The worst part about this is that I pretty much agree with your disappointment about the game's framerate -- crappy framerates really bug me, and if they were talking about improvements that never materialized, that sucks even more. If you had just argued that instead of piling on more and more unsubstantiated claims, most people here would have been on your side.

#61 Posted by Gamer_152 (14066 posts) -

@Wong_Fei_Hung said:

Firstly, I don't know who this person is and whether his "claim" that he worked for Nintendo as a QA is true, I also fail to see how he has proved this like others who have posted claim. How has he proved this?.

Secondly, it may well be he has never had access to this sort of diagnostic software, because his role simply doesn't require it. Wouldn't his role be to check software alongside quality control guidelines set my Nintendo, and nothing at the deeper code level?.

Although I think Hallinel has a good history of being an honest user of the site, yes, we can't 100% know whether his claims are true, even if they may seem very likely, and I agree with your point that he may just not have worked in the part of the company that would have dealt with code. That being said, if you're arguing that we can't take the things people say at face value, why do you expect people to believe the things you say? I don't meant that rhetorically, I mean that as a genuine question. Hallinel is at least trying to provide a solid source for his claims, something you've not done.

We must understand though that "technically enhanced" is a subjective term,

I know and agree, that's the problem, They're vague and intentionally so. No company would highlight flaws from a earlier version, it wouldn't look good. In light of what we know about the Japanese version, most people would have naturally assumed they were referring to the FPS, or do you think I'm wrong here?.

It's an attempt to deceive in my eyes. perhaps not a straight out "lie", but certainly deceptive.

It sounds like a lot of people would have assumed they were probably going to get a game with a good framerate, but I think it would have been unreasonable of anyone to think "This is definitely them promising a better framerate". I'm not sure if I'd call this deceptive, but I do think it's kind of terrible that they did put out a version with low framerate and hanging issues, especially when they were promising a technically enhanced version of the game.

It's impossible to say, it's all dependant on the contract in question.

I didn't say "all" developers create clauses in contract that protect them like this. what i do know is that companies don't take risks like this, no company would, they cover themselves legally at every corner

Your statements here seem to be contradictory. You start by saying that whether publishers would give themselves power to order patches varies from contract to contract, and that it's not all developers (I assume you mean publishers) who do this, but then immediately say no company would risk not giving themselves that power. Which of these is it?

Request or order, it's the same thing, order being demanding in light of an issue that appears.

The difference between a request and an order is the difference between asking and telling. With one you have a choice, with the other you don't.

this recent feature on Nintendo site alludes to some of these tests.

No it doesn't. I still fail to understand why these software tests you're talking about are so vital to the argument you're making, but all that article says is that they've done hardware tests on the Wii U, it doesn't begin to talk about any kind of software tests they do for certification of Wii games.

I don't claim to have insight into the inner working of Atlus, Nintendo or any other company, I simply made educated guesses given the knowledge I have on what I know they do at particular facilities in Japan.

In addition, I also have very good friends who work in the industry, both in the development and media, who give me further insight. I merely connect the dots, I don't claim to work for such companies.

Actually, you were claiming to have insight into the inner workings of these companies, and with the arguments you've presented here still are. You did not present your arguments as educated guesses, but rather facts to the point where you were directly denying the claims of people who said you were wrong, even when they claimed to have insider industry knowledge. The fact that you have friends who work in the industry does lend at least some merit to your claims, but you admit openly you make guesses and fill in blanks when you don't have the answers, and we cannot criticise companies or have logical debates about things based on guesses, it just doesn't work.

Moderator
#62 Edited by TruthTellah (8725 posts) -

Come on, guys. This has just become a stupid game of "he said, everyone else said". I'd ask a mod to shut down this completely derailed thread, but one is already part of this. Please, let's not even dignify this kind of thing with more replies.

A publisher might have been deceptive in their advertising. Earth-shattering, I know. And the OP is not alone in his annoyance. The game has some framerate issues, and hopefully the original developer will decide to make a patch. That's all we can hope for. End of story. Let's just walk away and all have a good ol day.

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