Hey duders. I'm knee-deep in Dark Souls II at the moment, and today I hit a fun little thing. Straid, the dude who's turned to stone in front of a bonfire, let's on some interesting information. The guy starts out saying that he hasn't even heard of Drangleic, and that the place was called something else when he was human. He continues to say that in this land, they corralled the undead, imprisoned them.

I've seen some discussion online about the connection between Lordran and Drangleic, but to be honest, there's just no discussion to be had. This basically confirms that Drangleic and Lordran are the same place. Unless there's some widely contradicting piece of lore, I'd say this is case closed.

Thoughts?

Nope.

Well, now that you put it that way...

How did Lordran get twice as big?

@fredchuckdave: It expanded? And From Software needed something to put on the back of the box.

The Undead Asylum wasn't in Lodran. Oscar tells the Chosen a Undead to make a pilgrimage to the Land of Ancient Lords, Lodran. And them you travel there by crow. There's quite a bit of distance between the two places.

Oolacile would eventually be known as Darkroot Garden which is in Lordran.

Manus was defeated ages ago in Oolacile.

Nashandra was formed from the pieces of Manus.

Vendrick was corrupted by someone who CAME FROM VERY FAR AWAY, Nashandra.

Many people believe Drangleic stands where Lordran was, while others don't. I fall with the latter group and the explanation above is one reason. It's definitely not certain, but a gut feeling. Others have made stronger cases in either direction based on item descriptions rather than just one characters vague line. Maybe that's what Sterling was trying to say. Haha

@legion_: Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but there have been other things people have mentioned with regard to the lore that keep the debate open. The biggest thing is that the different descriptions for (I believe) the slumbering dragoncrest rings in the two games. In the first game, it is described as being developed in Vinheim, and in the second it is described as being developed in this land (i.e., Drangleic), which used to be called by another name.

Again, that's not to say that you're wrong; some people speculate that it takes place in Vinheim as well as other parts of the same world that Lordran used to inhabit. But there are also others who seem to think that the giants came from Lordran, so it's really just not certain yet.

Could be. Also might not be. The only definitive fact is that there are no definitive facts concerning the fate of Lordran.

There are a lot of things that point to it being in the same world, but not necessarily the same exact place, far in the future. Maybe parts of Drangleic overlap with where Lordran once was, but I don't think they're exactly the same. I think it was just designed to be ambiguous, and all these are just there to make you feel a connection between the games and recall Dark Souls One sometimes while you're playing.

I dont think is Lordran .... also what is said by the dude in the memories of giant makes me doubt it so. Also King Vendrik took something from somewhere ... or at leats some characters say so....

I seem to recall dialogue mentioning that the first flame was brought to Drangelic from the east, which is what brought the cursed and the giants. It would stand to reason that Drangelic and Lordran are not the same place.

I remember thinking so for a while after meeting straid but I don't think so now. I think there were people from lordran that came to drangleic at some point, and there's connections between the two. Some folks have interesting theories about the tower of heide.

More specifically, it says it was "used", not "developed" in DkS2, which doesn't rule out Lordran either.

Although I believe Drangleic is where Lordran once stood, I think that dialogue with Straid actually clouds the waters quite a bit. The undead we're being imprisoned all over the place. Astrora immediately comes to mind, as well as Thorolund and Catarina. I can't quite remember though if they are imprisoned in these places or merely outcast and corralled north to the Undead Asylum. They certainly weren't imprisoned in Lordran. I mean they have their own town.

What I do think is interesting is the Bastille specifically. It serves the same purpose as the Asylum, we're told it was was a fortress that was converted into a prison. I always thought of the Asylum a lot like Alcatraz and the Bastille definitely gives me the same vibe.

But I wouldn't take that as evidence for the two being the same, or Drangleic being Lordran. The architecture of Heide, the items found in the Gutter, along with the ruins scattered around Majula and the Shaded Woods do a lot more for me. And that shattered Lordvessel guys. That's huge!

The Vinheim argument is still valid, however the way that ring says it was used in that land long ago and doesn't specify that it originated there isn't solid enough. I'm more convinced that Malfia used to be Vinheim but I admit there's not very much evidence for that.

I mentioned this in the lore speculation thread and it definitely applies in this discussion. Havels armour set (found in the Gutter!) says that the origin of the name Havel is not clear, and whether it is the name of a person or a country is not known. We know Havel was a person but that has been lost in time like so many other things. So there is precedent that item descriptions may be incorrect! Also Straid makes a comment about the "mother of Puromancy and her daughters" fighting the everlasting dragons. The Witch of Izalith and her daughters fought the dragons, one of which was Quelana who is the mother of Pyromancy! Now we have precedent for a character's dialogue being incorrect. A lot of times it can be speculated we aren't being told the truth, and a character might be confused like Benhart with his sword, but these two cases show characters and items in direct contradiction with known facts from Dark Souls. It raises a lot of questions.

@mosespippy: There is no mention of the First Flame being brought to Drangleic. There are people who argue that is what Vendrick stole from the giants, but there's no solid evidence for it in my opinion.

And it's likely the giants came from the west, as the battle with the giants took place in that fort which is along the west coast.

Quote from myself :

Drangelic... Vinheim or Lordran (or both, or none) ?

This is a tricky question, but I think Drangelic was called Vinheim in the past. I didn't see the hints about Drangelic being on Lordran, maybe I just didn't pay too much attention. My first clue was, of course, the Lingering Draconcrest Ring. In Dark Souls 1, it was an artifact from Vinheim and it's actual description state that it was used in the kingdom where now lies Drangelic. Sure, some could argue (and some has) that the word "used" is important... because the Chosen Unded could use this ring in Lordran, but I think that this theory is overly complicated. And then, I read the description of the Dragon-rider Greatshield. It says that Venderick, with his Dragon Riders, came to a land, slaugthered it's people and created Drangelic on it's remains (that very description made me doubt about the good hearted nature of the King, but that's another topic). It's interesting because there was people to slaughter in Vinheim, wile Lordran was only filled with undeads... Third, we meet one guy that was here before the country was called Drangelic. That's Straid... a really powerfull wizard (and Vinheim was a land of wizards). And guess what he sells ? The lingering dragoncrest ring. Pieced together, I'm assuming Drangelic is on Vinheim.

But there is the Old Dragonslayer, in a land reminiscent of Anor Londo (if flooded).

That's right, that's an hint that Drangelic is on Lordran...

And then, developper said it's in another continent. Seeing how the land is flooded, I will argue that Anor Londo flooded and that "the continent" is not the same as before, because part of the land went underwater and others didn't.

On the dragoncrest ring that use the word "used", let's not forget that this is a translation. As an exemple, my version of the game (which is french) states that the ring "is from" the land that used to be in Drangelic's place... it's another translation and which is correct ? That is open to debate.

Plus, I'll add some stuff I ran across. The description of the Heide armor pieces states that there is no historical record to determine if Heide was a country or part of a larger country. What is known, though, is the fact that the Way of Blue was born in Heide, before the land flooded. Of course, some could point out the fact that Heide could be built on the ruin of Anor Londo, pretty much like Drangelic is built on the ruin of the previous country... but there is no hint about that.

I gathered that Straid was originally alive when the land was called Olaphis, but I've forgotten what it was that supported that. Items around the bastille or some of the spells that he developed perhaps? I also believe that Olaphis was what the land was called just before it became Drangleic, mostly because that's how I would write it if I was gonna have a bunch of junk laying around from a previous era.

@myrmicus: The Way of Blue does bear similarities the the Darkmoon covenant, originating in none other than Anor Londo.

That bit about there being no historical record about the place makes me laugh though. These arguments would be so much clearer if these people would just keep better records! I see tons of books, where are the history books?

That doesn't confirm anything.

It's the same place as long as we assume England is the same place as whatever "city" lay there hundreds or thousands of years earlier.

At the end of the day, who cares? From Software leave tiny little nuggets here and there then giggle as fans kill themselves over trying to connect two dots that are more often than not several blank pages apart.

I'm of the opinion that Drangleic lies where Lordran once was and + some.

I don't think the Lost Bastille is the undead asylum, if you look into the lore of the belfry gargoyles and items you pick up there it's a tough pill to swallow.

For the Drangleic is Vinheim crowd - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUTEjFwE9J8 - This link describes pretty well that the dragoncrest ring thing doesn't really work that well.

For anyone that looks for geographical evidence ingame... forget it. No mans Wharf could not exist above water, The iron castle sank into lava ABOVE harvest valley, You can see Heide from Majula but you can't see Majula from Heide. You should accept the Heide lore as an indicator that a lot has changed with the continent... and it makes a lot of sense for the designers to scatter locations exactly so that you can't deduce the origin without item descriptions and dialogue etc.

I don't think the giants came from Lordran they are defs not giants as giants were in Dark souls, I don't think Vendrick stole the lord vessel as it clearly states that he vanquished the old ones...

They shoulda just done a Demon's Souls to Dark Souls with this. 'Yeah it's different, but hey, remember Patches? Don't think about it, enjoy.'

Is there a trolly "Drangleic is actually Boletaria!" crowd yet?

Yes, but no. It's clearly stated that Vendrick vanquished four dudes with tremendous souls, not "THE" Old Ones. By the time Vendrick, the Old Ones we know should've been dead already and we know someone can take a soul from someone else. Plus, it's also clearly stated that he vainquished the bearers of the four Lord Souls and with it, created Drangleic. THEN, Nashandra came to him, warning him about the Giant Threat. THEN he went across the sea to kick some giant's ass, THEN he stole their powers.

I just talked to the cat and she made a pretty big allusion to Dark Souls 1. She mentioned long ago they tried to solve the Unded problem by locking them away (what they said of the Undead Asylum in DS1) and then she talks of the Lost Bastille like it is that place. What's even crazier is that she says the Lost Sinner is trying to light the First Flame and calls him a fool. Pretty wild, obviously this is known, but I didn't see it mentioned in this thread. Is the First Flame mentioned often in DS2? I haven't completed the game yet, currently fighting the Demon of Song though.

@dan_citi: The Lost Sinner has a new drop in NG+ that might elaborate on that for you. Also it's a she.

I'm of the opinion that the Drangleic we explore in Dark Souls 2 is inside the abyss, and therefore we should take all geographical stuff with a grain of salt. That said, the Bastille, Huntsmans Copse and Undead Purgatory are probably from the same kingdom, most likely the same one as Iron Keep, which is very likely from before Drangleic.

I like to think that the reason for all the kingdoms is that they all fell into the abyss somehow and now that we're in there we're seeing parts of them, whether or not they're from the same geographical location or not. This doesn't discount the fact that where Drangleic actually exists/existed in the world other kingdoms used to exist, Heide clearly was in the same land as Drangleic.

Though, i might have to rethink this theory after reading a bit more about some stuff, where katanas come from, where they originated in the original game and stuff like that is probably a good place to start.

You have a strange definition of what 'confirmed' means as all of this is pure speculation.

Either way, I've been watching some lore video's on YouTube and the guys that seem to have deepened this stuff out the most think it actually isn't Lordran, it is just connected to it because several of Lordran's highest have moved to Drangleic, like Gwynevere.

That said, compared to the guys that looked into this in detail, I seem to have no idea what is going on whatsoever. So I wouldn't know anyway.

Based on Wallager the Chamberlains nonsense yes. All he really says is she washed up on shore. He is also wrong about details of the Giant attack and has no clue where Vendrick is, in many ways he even doesn't realize he is dead. Reliable source of info? 50/50. Also long story short, Nashandra was a manipulator and liar. Is it really that far fetched to believe she lied about where she was from? She clearly didn't tell anyone she was a "part of Manus". Not everyone in the game is honest, not everyone in the game has accurate info, stop taking EVERYTHING at face value. There is absolutely no good reason to believe Drangleic is not built on, or near, the remains of Lordran, and there is metric tons of things suggesting they are likely the same place.

Also @legion_ don't let this people get you down. Yes the asylum was far from Lordran, yes you had to fly there by bird. Well in Drangleic you can also fly there by bird can't you? So if Drangleic isn't the "new" Lordran it sure as heck is awfully close, or coincidentally a similar distance from the bastille as Lordran was from the Asylum.

This is Japanese storytelling after all ( I mean this in a good way) . It could be that the "throne of want" transforms the world into a different one, simply contextualizing a sequel.

I wish to react to your post. First thing higlithed : I don't see any problem with the fact that he doesn't know where his king is. After all, Drangleic was already in an undead crisi by the time the Giants came from accross the water. Vendrick fled to the Crypt. By the time you come, multiple people have tried to find him in the crypt, according to the fenito, but it was long after the end of Drangleic at the hand of the Giants. For all we know, Vendrick just fled to the Crypt, paving his way with guards and barriers. He obviously didn't want anyone to come to him and I find it unlikely that he would have told anyone (appart from his personnal guards, who came with him). Sure Wellager seems confused, not really knowing when he is in the time. But then again, he appears quite sane and all the thing he says makes sense. He doesn't hesitate, he doesn't seems to have any memory problem, he just doesn't realise he is dead, which doesn't make him an unreliable source of informations about what happened (but sure, dont ask him what is happening now).
The part when he wonders where is the King is interesting, in my opinion, because, as already told in the other lore thread, that helps us making an idea of what the chronology looks like. We know that the Giants won the war in the end, only to be defeated by a "nameless hero". And we also know that Nashandra and Vendrick came to the Giants and defeated them, on their own ground. I don't see the Giants winning this war with the presence of Vendrick to lead his armies.

As for the second thing hilighted... There is equally metric tons of things suggesting they aren't the same place.