YA, Dark Souls was easily my game of the generation, but FUCK the PvP. This will force me to play offline which is a shame, but well worth it to avoid the griefing fuckwits.

@drxlecter: It sounds like they are introducing measures to counterbalance the griefing. Armor will have stat requirements, for instance. Players will be matched with time played in mind. And covenants making a bigger impact, I read one would automatically summon help when you get invaded. So if they make the PvP more prevalent AND make it way better, that could be an awesome thing.

@mclargepants: I'd say From's track record leaves very little hope that the PvP won't devolve into some form horrid balance and terrible design. Demon's Souls has people like the guy that invaded Brad during BB, Dark Souls has havel twinks and the like. From does NOTHING about it, so why would there be any expectancy that Dark Souls 2 will be any different?

At first I hated PVP but then I took the plunge and tried to invade. It's really weird but trying it turned my opinion on it completely around. Essentially it completely changes the feel of the game where as normally you are in constant danger, as an invader you have a single "rather simple" goal to hunt down the player in his\her world and pretty much don't have to pay mind to anything else. I never really geared for PvP specifically just used the equip I was using normally or something rather weird that never really worked but was fun to play.

And this thing we knew about for quite some time, I think it ain't as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. There are things in place to make the playingfield even so you don't get stomped the minute you step out of the tutorial area.

The twinks in the Undead Parish and other starting areas are completely overblown. I've taken characters at various Soul Levels throughout the starting areas and I've seen it happen once at the bonfire with the dropped ladder shortcut. I have PVP characters at SL 30, 50, 99, and 170 so I can invade any area I want and fight builds that are at various stages of completion. I don't think my SL 30 character has encountered anyone wearing full Havel gear at that low a Soul Level.

People fly through the starting areas in a couple of hours. You won't find people wasting their time in low invasion areas unless they are trying to set up specific fights with players. The designated PVP areas are always full of people ready to fight and I rarely run into anyone that's just trying to progress through the area.

EDIT: I think I've probably been invaded less than 10 times across all my characters while I was trying to complete an area and I've spent most of my time in human form. It helps that I'm usually very under leveled for any given area so invaders wouldn't be within my SL range.

Very much agreed. Sounds like there's an even split between solitary-minded folks like us and PVP-minded folks.

Which, to me, sort of screams the need for an option like you've suggested.

This'll probably be fine for the first few months the game is out. My bigger fear is what happens down the road. Clearly people are still loving and playing both Demon's and Dark Souls, but can you imagine playing those games nowadays as a new player if you were FORCED to contend with invasions from people whose years of time with the game have rendered them gods in comparison?

Now I love the Souls games and I don't even really have that much against the PVP when it works and I'm playing someone whose entire playthrough hasn't just been geared towards PVP. Also, when the person I'm fighting isn't hacking. Alas, though, these are all issues that Souls' PVP has faced in the past, and I really hope From has found ways to solve those problems down the line, because otherwise, this seems like a game that could be far harder to get into down the road than the prior 2, which would really be a bummer.

Rumour from yesterday's early preview - sacrificing a human effigy at a bonfire will 'turn off' invasions. That would be a nice way to get the best of both worlds for people who want to avoid black phantoms but don't want to lose the ghosts and messages.

Presumably human effigies will be fairly common, or at least semi-farmable.

@gerrid: they are basically humanities

@jz: more like ephemeral eye stones from Demon's Souls I think, since they aren't stackable for extra benefits.

@gerrid: if you wanna get super techinal

The whole online component needs to be completely overhauled. If they fix this aspect, than I am ok with it. If I have friends that I can reliably summon to play with me, then I'm fine with it. If they actually police griefers and prevent them from just invading and killing me over and over, fine.

I wonder how long the effect will last. Would have to keep sacrificing every time we died? Or just a toggle on/off thing?

Dark Souls 2 is going to be so good.

It's not even out yet and people are complaining about invasions.

You all are acting like babies. If invasions scare you that much you probably shouldn't be playing Dark Souls in the first place. Its part of the experience. Man up and take a death.

@fluttercry said:

Dang, solid you lad. Could I have your autograph?

People that want to invade at all cost and telling people who don't want invasions to fuck off are just griefers. There is no valid reasons whatsoever not to allow people to turn off invasions as an option, not just by using items or covenants or whatever. PvP is better for everyone involved when you have willing participants on both sides.

When you interrupt someone's game who is not looking for PvP you're just an asshole. That's what this entire system has been in both games so far, a legit way to be an asshole.

In the mean time, reading about the fact there will be penalties for failed invasions i sure as fuck hope it counts as a failed invasion when someone alt-f4 on you. If that works it makes me sorta look forward to invasions now.

Saying that people shouldn't play Dark Souls because they don't want to deal with invasions is absolutely ridiculous. The game is very clearly focused at delivering an amazingly difficult yet rewarding first time experience, and for a lot of people, invasions ruin that experience. Forcing people to play offline to avoid invasions means losing out on messages and ghosts, which are key to the game. Clearly people love the pvp in this series, and that's fine, but I personally hate the way this series plays online, and for me, it hurts the game. There should be a way for people to stay online, keep the messages and the ghosts, but not have to deal with invasions. Period.

I think that everyone should trust that From Software will be able to balance this new system right:

They already said that griefing as it was in DS1 will not be possible anymore: all weapons damage scale, including elemental damage. no more unscaled pyromancy. So to deal ridiculously high damage at very low will be out of the question....therefore you will never be able to invade a lvl 20 and totally out-damage him in the parish when he has a +4 freaking sword. Regarding armor, most armors in the game will also require some stats to wear them (endurance or strength or whatnot).

these two facts guarantee that invaders will not be significantly better equipped than their targets. and this is the big change since the real problem of DS1 was basically that. I invaded at SL1 in the burg with unupgraded gear to fight starting character there and this was super fun, I basically learned proper PVP this way. SO in my view making invasion a constant threat is OK since it will be balanced.

Ok, player who are reluctant at learning the ropes of PvP will still have their ass kicked but THIS IS THE MAIN PART OF DARK SOULS. PvE is training mode for PvP in the souls franchise. If this game still has such an active community this is because of the PvP. So learn how to fight you fellow players and you will have so much more fun.

Otherwise play off line, its safe. But this would be missing out on the core of the game. The covenant system will this time around hopefully be well thought through so that what was the darkmoon blade will work this time around. The protectors are a great addition to protect fearful players (although this confines to organized ganking but lets see how it turns out)

so stop thinking PvP is not for me and it is forced down my throat. Use this occasion to jump on the fun balanced PvP train!

@announakis: I completely disagree. The main part of the game is not the PvP content, hell, it feels really tacked on in Dark Souls, and it just drains the fun out of the game whenever an invasion happened. Fortunately I could go hollowed and completely avoid that hassle and still enjoy the other online features without worrying. It's ridiculous to say PvP is the main point when so many people just play it for the PvE content - just read this thread, a huge majority here were not a fan of the PvP aspect at all.

If From Software somehow does manage to make this system work, then kudos to them, but for now, I'm going to hold back and see how things unfold.

Y'all are crazy. Crazy!

"I can't avoid the most innovative mechanic of the entire series just because I don't like it anymore" is about the dumbest complaint I've ever heard. Rewarding people for being hollow was a rather bad design flaw in the original game, and it's great that they're correcting it. It led to 90% of players constantly avoiding PVP as a rule, and conditioning them to hate it so reflexively that they're now treating the prospect of invasions as an end-of-the-world scenario. This is Dark Souls. Dark Souls! Join the bodyguard covenant if you're not spec'd for PVP!

They're fixing most of the problems with SL1 twinks, guaranteeing aid when invasions do come for those who can't handle it, and properly incentivizing not looking like a butt-ugly zombie.

People bitched about the lack of voice chat in the original Dark Souls, too. That's the nature of the game. Don't like it, yank out your internet cord and play without all the bloodstains, ghosts, notes, and other neat accouterments that make the series so unique. The only person's experience you'll be hurting is your own. From has apparently spent a lot of time improving all aspects of the multiplayer, and preemptively condemning it because it's different from Dark Souls 1 is rather silly.

Ahh man this reminds me of the early Eve Online forums. PVP is core Souls gameplay. They've worked hard to build an innovative PVP system including cool co-op tools. From the very beginning with Demon's Souls, the monk fight, the anonymous co-op play defending against invaders and defeating bosses. All before the first hipster put fingers to keyboard for Journey.

If you can't appreciate that then .. sorry, these games aren't made for you. Play something else.

I've always felt that invasions were a core part of the Souls experience so this honestly just makes me happy. That they're willing to be bold enough to say "no, you can't have this half of the game without the other half" excites me. It's a dedication to a very specific and very unique videogame experience that they're trying to craft, so power to 'em.

I absolutely hated the PVP in both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. It was never a super big hindrance but I never found it fun. I'm happy for everyone who thinks it's a great idea, but eventually I would just sigh every time I was invaded and just let the dude teleport behind me and backstab. I stopped fighting back, just wanted them to get it over with so I could get on with the game.

I'll definitely pick up DS2 the day it releases (on PC) and I imagine that the PVP really won't be that bad. However, if it does become a huge annoyance I could easily see myself having every ounce of fun sucked out of the game.

Agree. They are literally making all the changes to the PVP and covenant system to protect people from invaders. The host will literally have everything going for them while the invader will have to deal with reduced health and 2v1 situations. Invaders will no longer be able to use OP weapons and gear. All these benefits to help new players and there are still people who complain about how unfair the invasions and PVP elements are going to be.

Apparently I've wasted hundreds, possibly a thousand hours on a series that isn't for me. Huh, you'd think I would've noticed by now.

The reason I'm not interested in Souls PvP isn't because of how horribly unbalanced it is but simply because I'm not a multiplayer guy, I honestly can't remember the last time I played with or against a human player in any game. I think it's great that the Souls series has multiplayer that people enjoy, I just think it should be optional for people that also want to play online without disadvantages like taking up a ring slot or a covenant or whatever the rumors are now. If Dark Souls 2 is actually balanced this time then I might be interested in an arena like the DLC had but I have no interest in invasions.

Sorry but man up. It's part of the experience.

In the info dump thread, it said there are human effigies you can burn to turn off invasions or something. So I'll be farming those if you can.

I find the "Then stop playing / play something else / not for you" comments interesting. They never seem to take the possibility of previous playtime into account.

I'll give it a shot, but the at the first hint of being backstabbed by an enemy standing in front of me, I'll play the rest of the game offline.

The game is easy enough to shift into offline mode if you don't want to deal with invasions. There is also the human effigy burning which will turn off invasions for a set amount of time, and you can now rest at bonfires even when being invaded, presumably to banish the invader.

Also so many people joined Dark Souls late, once twinking and ganking had become common, and that is why there are so many people with such negative reactions. My guess is that the majority of people in this thread saying they had awful PvP experiences and hated it and played offline didn't play it on release.

Because on release any PvP you got into wasn't with optimised builds or maxed-out weapons, it was just dudes looking for humanity who had the same awful crappy combinations of armour and half-forged weapons as you. There was no Dragonslayer bow griefing or people hiding as pots waiting to kick you off ledges. It was just a dude comes at you and starts swinging. The only bad experience came if you went up against someone with chaos pyromancy, and all it did was convince you to get it too because it was crazy good.

EDIT: as @yadilie pointed out, there were some shitty go-to builds and spells that homogenised PvP, but they still took a while to kick in. Those first few days at least were free of any of that.

And when DS2 comes out there might be some slight imbalance where someone who finds Homing Soul Arrow is tough to beat, sure. But now player matching is based off souls gathered and play time rather than level, meaning much more balanced fighting (hopefully).

I just worry about hackers on pc

This. Even on PS3/360 there were Hex editors. Not to mention the shitty servers for both Demon's and Dark. PVP is the worst thing in those games unless you specifically gear for it and go to the specific soul levels and stages that people do serious PvPing. Beyond that it's just teleport backstabs and dudes with infinite HP.

Just give me the Demon's Souls approach. Be in Hollow mode but only have 75% of your Max HP.

@gerrid:

Actually PvP in Dark Souls near the beginning was broken and boring as shit. Everyone had lightning weapons because they didn't scale properly and they were just spamming one spell constantly. Can't remember the actual spell name but that's all the bitching was about, believe it was the spell the forest guardian golems cast.

@yadilie:

yes, wrath of the gods? or tranquil walk of peace? and everyone spammed the Dark Wood Grain Ring too, and the Ring of Fog, because you couldn't lock on with it. The forest was a nightmare like that.

it was very unbalanced in that way, but it still took a good two weeks or a month before everyone cottoned on to those tactics, and suddenly it was everywhere.

In the first week or so at least it was just scrawny nonsense, you'd find someone with a lightning weapon and then try it yourself, it was sort of cool to see the things other people had found.

I was there in the beginning and PVP wasn't like that. There was a lot of Ring of Fog use in the Kiln, but once you reached the Kiln it was assumed those players knew what the game had to offer since they decided to stick around instead of moving on to NG+.

I didn't run into any funny business as I progressed through the game. I saw my first invader in the Depths and was killed by Homing Soulmass. I don't remember getting invaded again until I had reached the Kiln. People weren't invading. Want to know how I know? I spent HOURS waiting to get summoned and trying to summoned by people at each boss fog gates and I did it in human form. I specifically recall waiting 3 hours at the Capra gate hoping to see a summon sign. I'd alternate between laying down my own summon sign and waiting to see something appear. I ended up getting summoned around 3-4 times before I finally did it myself.

At least on the 360 Dark Souls was all about summoning in the first few weeks. I killed every boss at least a few times and I didn't see any invasions in the worlds I was summoned to. Maybe you played on the PS3? I can imagine that Demon's Souls players would have jumped into PVP as soon as they got the means to do so.

Seems I will now wait instead of buying this on day and date... If there isn't a good way to avoid invasion I will just not buy it. I am not going to play the game offline but I will not deal with invasions it is the least enjoyable part of the game for me... If you enjoy it great for you but to me you are just the an asshole screwing up my game.

You're not going to play the game just because there's the possibility that at some point you'll get invaded?

There are SEVERAL confirmed ways to avoid invasion.

Example: you can burn human effigies at bonfires to prevent people from invading you for awhile. Also i was reading the released info on how invasion priorities work now. It seems like the PvP community of the game will be attacking each other for the most part.

YES you can be invaded while hollow, but if you dont want to do it. Theres alot of ways to avoid it and get help. This kneejerk reaction to "you can be invaded while hollow" is nuts.

@golguin: Ring of Fog was indefensibly broken, not really any way around that. In the first 2 weeks it was okay, got pretty lame until the first patch but I didn't play that long (put 200 hours into the first month) because there's no reason to suspect a community that latches on to broken things won't latch on to the next broken thing after that. I was around 150-30 (without using Ring of Fog or a Lightning weapon) in first month PvP and came back and went 90-5 or so a few months after the DLC was released; but regardless it was still really stupid and broken. Dark Souls PvP could very well be awesome the problem isn't the game it's the players; as with any console game; people take the most boring approaches, the path of least resistance, and make it a tedious slogfest for anyone else.

The amount of people that just don't understand, or more specifically, respect the design philosophy behind these games yet still feel inclined to throw in their two cents blows my mind.
Everything that is in these games is in here for a reason, even if the way it came across in the games before now has been perhaps less than elegant in places. If you don't want to be invaded whatsoever, what the fuck are you doing playing these games at all? You enter these games in From Soft's terms, you play by their twisted rules and you accept the experience for what it is. There's plenty of other places to go if you want to dungeon crawl without any real sense of risk. Adapt, become better than the invaders. If they twink, twink back and do it better than them. Or just go hollow, your choice. >:D

I don't think it's the possibility of invasion that's the sticking point here; it's the possibility of being jacked at literally any moment, which can really suck if it happens when you're really vulnerable or not expecting to have to fight other players.

I'm not bothered by the new way invasions work, in theory. I played through Dark Souls for most of the game after my first chance to farm Humanity in the Depths. But let's be fair to the people who don't like the sound of it, because it does sound like it's imposing PVP on everybody, which is, understandably, not to everyone's tastes.

This decision alone has put me on the fence about Dark Souls 2, and has made me definitely decide to not buy it at launch. If it all works right and you get fair fights and/or can't be set back any further than losing some souls from losing a bloodstain, then great. Even still, if I die with a large number of souls, only to be immediately invaded by an impossible enemy before I can get to my bloodstain, that sounds extremely frustrating.

The history of gaming shows that this ideal scenario has a decent chance of not happening. There's a good chance that there will be some weapon, or some piece of armor, or some tactic that will slip through QA that players will grab onto that's meant for no other reason than to grief other players. Then your options are to sacrifice something in game (possibly) to deter invasions, or cut off a major portion of the game by playing offline. Both scenarios are less than ideal, and it's something I'd rather not partake in if it's there.

For all the people stoked about it and love the idea of the challenge, good on ya. I can see the appeal. However, in my years of experience playing the video games, giving other players a role in your enjoyment of the game can have some really, really bad consequences, and that's why I avoid games where players can impact your experience in a negative way. I'll wait to see what exploits are found and if they're fixed, and then I'll consider picking the game up. But if there is anything close to the Scraping Spear from Demon's Souls in there, then nuh-uh. Count me out.

The "possibility of being jacked at literally any moment" is exactly what Dark Souls is. When you're in a new area you don't know what's around any given corner and a single step can mean your death. Sometimes you're dangerously low on healing items and you need to examine your options. You have the choice to retreat back to the bonfire and respawn all the enemies or press forward and risk your souls. Invasions are another element to that design philosophy.

The reliability of summoning someone that you attempt to summon should be improved. The ability to summon specific people though is something else all together, though voice chat in co-op is apparently a thing. Something I personally will never use, but that's neither here nor there.

At any rate, apparently rules regarding PvP invasions go further than what we first heard, beyond just stat requirements for armor to help lessen twinking. Information flowing out now thanks to the press event and apparently there are further rules to prioritize invasion victims.

The game has some sort of a sin meter, sin being a statistic accrued when you yourself invade someone else. Sinners are at the top of the list of potential invasion victims. After that are those engaging in co-op, and have white phantoms aiding them. Next are those that are in human form. Lastly, there's those that are in hollow form.

In addition, heavy sinners are more vulnerable to the penalties of dying while hollow, and can have their max HP reduced beyond 50%.

Source

Honestly, this will all depend on how its implemented. I am going through Dark Souls committing to completing it as I always end up doing something else instead. I joined the Forest Covenant for shits and giggles and proved to myself that it is impossible to get into anything PVP related in the game. I tried it on my PC version and it was literally impossible as everyone has hacked their game to death. Even on the PS3 when you get invaded its from people who are soul level 450 (I got messaged from some people who invaded me and told me their level). This has basically meant I am staying in hollow form the whole time.

I can handle it in DS2 if I stay with it as theoretically I will be there at relevant levels.

Wow, this is beginning to feel like the huge 'Hardcore vs Casual' argument from World of Warcraft way back in The Burning Crusade times.

If you're a fan of the PvP, great, good for you! That being said, try not to be a dick about it. Just because some people don't enjoy it doesn't mean they shouldn't be playing Dark Souls - a game in which you could have all the online features of the game without a worry of being invaded. Having the possibility of being invaded no matter what in the sequel is a real concern, since it's a huge change that will affect the way a lot of people will play. It would make a fun experience into a stressful one. Whenever there's a human element, I start to get really nervous, my heart rate goes up, sort of like it's a competition, and it's not a feeling I enjoy at all. Seriously, all I'll be doing is killing myself so it'll be over with. Somehow, I don't think that's exactly what From Software really intends for players to do.

It's good to know From software is trying to balance this, but honestly, you know it won't be balanced. People will find a way to exploit the system, like in every game ever. When the exploit is patched out, there will just be a new one discovered, and you also know there will be cheaters who will just ruin your day. I just don't want to deal with this, and I don't feel like it's such an unreasonable demand, but given how offended some of the PvP fans are in here, I'm beginning to wonder.

I just hope this burning thingy to turn off invasions lasts a while, I don't want it to be a short time limit of like 20 minutes, because refreshing that would just get anoying after a while.

@golguin: It wasn't that way in the first game, so this is a new element of the design philosophy, apparently. If somebody who liked the first game doesn't like that, it's totally valid. Think about it this way: if you hand somebody a hot dog and a bottle of relish and they choose to eat it plain, then the next day, you give that same person a hot dog with relish already on it and they choose not to their hot dog this time, that doesn't mean they never liked hot dogs. From changed something and some people don't like the change. That only makes all the sense in the world.

I'll probably play it online. The problem with Dark Souls (and I would imagine Demon Souls) is that they're old enough that folks have mastered several PvP builds as well as taken advantage of lack of item restrictions. It doesn't sound like it will be an issue immediately, as it'll be a new game.

Having said that, if I get backstabbed by a dude in front of me enough, i'll likely just play offline.

The thing is that this change addresses their failings from the first game. The penalty from staying hollow wasn't enough to encourage people to go human. It was always their intention to make invasions and summoning a core part of the game. They've expressed their feelings on this issues in the various interviews. A lot of the patches made to Dark Souls was done to encourage more PVP. They increased the humanity drops from farming areas, they gave you humanity when you beat a boss, they increased the soul level range for summoning, and they added a PVP arena in the DLC.

There was no change to their design philosophy. They want people to fight together and against each other. They even added the option to voice chat to encourage more co-op.

While Dark Souls was terribly imbalanced as far as invasions went, at least the option to opt out of that aspect was there. Some people just prefer to play game by themselves and those of you that are telling them to suck it up, there will be plenty of people to invade and PvP with so I don't understand why you're getting all uppity about it. Sure, invasion is becoming a core aspect of the game, but sometimes you don't want to have to deal with constant threat of competition from other players and just play the game. And you know what, for every player that uses invasion the intended way and looks for a fair, fun fight, there are 2 "lol, get rekt" assholes out there that are just out there to ruin everyone's time. So yeah, I can see why people flinch at the thought of constant invasions. Perhaps Dark Souls II will not have a way to turn off invasions and From Software really just wants to focus on the multiplayer aspect. If that's the case, I congratulate them on alienating half of their audience I guess.

@theblue:

Well then you'll love this game, since from the info we've been given we know you can burn human effigies to stop invasions. Probably the idea is that From wants people to play while human and not always hollow all the time, which would be what the I-can't-stand-getting-invaded people did in DS1. Not to mention that you can summon allies so you're fighting 2 of you vs 1.

Personally, sure if I got invaded every 5 minutes or got invaded only by hackers that'd be a pain in the ass, but that hasn't been my experience with DS1 so my mindset for DS2 is to just man up and deal with it. Invaders are another challenge in a challenging game.