When to use Raw?

#1 Posted by Zevvion (1830 posts) -

I'm going to create a new character and am thinking about several builds, one of which involves very low STR (only to support weapon requirement) and very high DEX. As we all know, some area's and bosses are best/easiest/fastest done with strike weapons. To my knowledge, there is no strike weapon in the game that scales with DEX primarily. Still, using thrust or slashing weapons that scale A or S against the armored enemies is not optimal.

Is it a good idea to get Raw weapons for this build? Does anyone have any idea where the cut off point is at? By that I mean, at what point will regular upgraded weapons start surpassing Raw weapons in terms of damage when you look at stats?

#2 Posted by Karkarov (2980 posts) -

If you are really that worried about it (never used a strike weapon the entire game, never had a problem downing bosses) take out flexile and use his soul to make a Barbed club. It isn't ideal but it scales C/C so it does get a boost from dex.

#3 Posted by Myrmicus (213 posts) -

Raw are good only if you have poor scaling stats and dumped stats... which seems like a really poor build on paper. Maybe using raw infusion on weapons with highest base damage ? The only Raw weapons I use, is my Raw Avelyn, with a specialized character (which have dumped stats). Otherwise, you should prefer Mundane weapons.

#4 Edited by Zevvion (1830 posts) -

@myrmicus: I've never used Mundane before. I'm still unsure how it exactly works. I read it scales the weapon with your lowest stat so that it can become very powerful but I have no idea how this works in practice.

@karkarov I haven't used a strike weapon my first time through the game either. When I did my second time through I was blown away by how much damage they do to certain enemies. For example, you kill the Old Iron Knights early in the game in Heide's Tower of flame with 2 hits that way. It also 'feels' more powerful against those types whereas blades 'feel' like they slide off them. It is obviously not required, but it saves some time and it's fun to use. It does make the Gargoyles and especially Ruin Sentinels significantly easier though.

#5 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1735 posts) -

Raw is good only when you are going to use the minimum stats for a weapon or the weapon doesn't scale. If you plan on leveling stats past the minimum Raw looses out very quickly.

#6 Posted by afabs515 (1010 posts) -

Raw is good only when you are going to use the minimum stats for a weapon or the weapon doesn't scale. If you plan on leveling stats past the minimum Raw looses out very quickly.

Pretty much this. I used raw weapons on my mage character, because in the beginning i was only leveling my stats so I could equip weapons. So I had a raw club +10 as my strike weapon on him.

#7 Posted by Clonedzero (4091 posts) -

Its good for crossbows.

#8 Edited by Myrmicus (213 posts) -

@zevvion: Mundane does scale with your lowest stat, but it scale INSANELY with it... This is best used on weapons that doesn't scale or that scale poorly. I tested Mundane Sentier's Spear, with at least 20 in each stats and it does crapload of damage. Very effective. But this means a mundane build will be "a master of none", so it's a hard choice to make.

EDIT : Someone experimented with mundane

EDIT2 : Long story short, mundane scale with your lowest stat this way :
+6 from 0 to 20
+3 from 20 to 30
+1 above30

#9 Posted by hippocrit (236 posts) -

Raw is good when you want a baby

#10 Posted by Zevvion (1830 posts) -

@myrmicus: +6 to what? And does it only scale with the lowest stat? None of that stuff still makes sense to me how it works in practice.

#11 Edited by Myrmicus (213 posts) -

@zevvion: Take a weapon, you have base damage + damage scaling

The scaling from Mundane is "Base damage + mundane scaling"

Mundane scaling is as said : +6 damage for each stat point, for a stat from 0 to 20, starting at +74 for 4 (the minimum possible, I presume), then +3 from 20 to 30 and then +1 above 30. This means, if your lowest stat is 20, your mundane weapon will deal +205 scaling damage. I didn't test it extensively, so I don't really know if mundane negate any other scalings the weapon has, or if it stacks.

This make mundane really good for weapons that has really poor base damage or no scaling. Avelyn with +205 from damage scaling ? I want.

#12 Posted by Zevvion (1830 posts) -

@myrmicus: I still don't understand that. You say +6 damage for each point up to 20. If my lowest stat is 20, wouldn't that mean 6 * 20 = 120? How did you get +205?

#13 Posted by Sterling (2069 posts) -

@zevvion: He is talking about this:

Copied from Gamefaqs board

"Mundane weapons seem to scale in damage based off of your lowest attribute score. You get +6 for each level until 20 in which it then starts to add 3. The testing was done with longswords +0 and +10. The scaling is not affected by the quality of the weapon. At minimum attribute level 22, the +10 mundane has the same damage as a normal +10 longsword. Though this doesn't seem too helpful now, it would be really good for those that want to grind an insane soul level."

Reference for damage numbers added: +80 damage when your lowest stat is 5, +6 damage for every increasing of all stats until hitting +180 at 20, then +3 damage until hitting +210 at 30, and +1 more point for raising all stats over 30 (confirmed up to 33)."

So at level 20 you get +180 damage. At 30 you get +210 damage. And at 40 you get +220 damage.

Not sure how accurate this is, but it was posted to the wikis and no one has corrected it yet.

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#14 Posted by Sterling (2069 posts) -

I just tested a mundane on a broadsword. Respeced to have 30 as my lowest stat. Damage on the sword was 120 base + 68 scaling = 186 damage. Infused it with mundane. Now it is 60 base + 200 scaling = 260 damage. This is on a +0 weapon.

Then took it to +8 and the base only went up to 108. 48 points in 8 upgrades. Total damage of 308.

This doesn't really seem like anything anyone should do before NG+. You would need to be over level 200 for this to even be worth it. And it only really seems worth it for super high levels. Not a normal build.

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#15 Posted by Myrmicus (213 posts) -

@sterling: Well, it's for high level sure, but not insane level. If you start as a deprived, you get to 20 in all stats by the level 126.
Typically, builds that benefit the most from Mundane are hexes, since you have to build up int and faith, str and dex for weapons requirement, adp because it's good and the last four because they're vital.

from what I understand, some weapons are better with other infusions : typically, those with high base damage and/or really high scalling (most huge weapons), but weapons with no scaling/or low base damage... like crossbows, Santier Spear, or daggers... they become monstrous.

#16 Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam (3153 posts) -
@myrmicus said:

Typically, builds that benefit the most from Mundane are hexes, since you have to build up int and faith, str and dex for weapons requirement, adp because it's good and the last four because they're vital.

From what I've heard, Vitality isn't so vital.

...

...

*distant rimshot*

#17 Posted by Zevvion (1830 posts) -

@sterling said:

I just tested a mundane on a broadsword. Respeced to have 30 as my lowest stat. Damage on the sword was 120 base + 68 scaling = 186 damage. Infused it with mundane. Now it is 60 base + 200 scaling = 260 damage. This is on a +0 weapon.

Then took it to +8 and the base only went up to 108. 48 points in 8 upgrades. Total damage of 308.

This doesn't really seem like anything anyone should do before NG+. You would need to be over level 200 for this to even be worth it. And it only really seems worth it for super high levels. Not a normal build.

I'm still not completely clear. From what I gather about this info it seems like Mundane actually scales with every stat, not just your lowest one? Or something else? Maybe my math is off or I am missing something, but you say 30 is your lowest stat which would mean it scales 6 * 20 + 10 * 3 = 150 scaling damage, yet you get + 200. Where is that extra 50 coming from?

#18 Posted by Sterling (2069 posts) -
@zevvion said:

@sterling said:

I just tested a mundane on a broadsword. Respeced to have 30 as my lowest stat. Damage on the sword was 120 base + 68 scaling = 186 damage. Infused it with mundane. Now it is 60 base + 200 scaling = 260 damage. This is on a +0 weapon.

Then took it to +8 and the base only went up to 108. 48 points in 8 upgrades. Total damage of 308.

This doesn't really seem like anything anyone should do before NG+. You would need to be over level 200 for this to even be worth it. And it only really seems worth it for super high levels. Not a normal build.

I'm still not completely clear. From what I gather about this info it seems like Mundane actually scales with every stat, not just your lowest one? Or something else? Maybe my math is off or I am missing something, but you say 30 is your lowest stat which would mean it scales 6 * 20 + 10 * 3 = 150 scaling damage, yet you get + 200. Where is that extra 50 coming from?

I'm not 100% sure myself. I had a few stats at 30, and a few above. I'll try respecing with it equipped to see how the number changes based on stats. That might be more helpful.

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#19 Edited by Myrmicus (213 posts) -

@zevvion: Well, the only reasonnable explanation is that your mundane weapon scale with your stats by giving +6 until reaching 20, then +3 until reaching 30 then +1 above... AND it start with a base scaling, since you get something like +70 for having a stat value of 4. Also, mundane wreck your others scaling (tested on Myrrah Sword +10, A scaling in dex became C) but you still have those "normal" scalings, which should fill the gap.

Mundane scale with your lowest stat only. This means, if you have 20 in all your stats but one stat at 4, it will scale with this stat and not the others. It's pretty much like how Dark scales with your lowest between faith and int.

#20 Posted by Zevvion (1830 posts) -

@myrmicus said:

@zevvion: Well, the only reasonnable explanation is that your mundane weapon scale with your stats by giving +6 until reaching 20, then +3 until reaching 30 then +1 above... AND it start with a base scaling, since you get something like +70 for having a stat value of 4. Also, mundane wreck your others scaling (tested on Myrrah Sword +10, A scaling in dex became C) but you still have those "normal" scalings, which should fill the gap.

Mundane scale with your lowest stat only. This means, if you have 20 in all your stats but one stat at 4, it will scale with this stat and not the others. It's pretty much like how Dark scales with your lowest between faith and int.

I see, now it makes more sense. To take the example of @sterling , that would mean he does get +150 scaling from mundane, but the remaining +50 scaling comes from STR scaling on the Broadsword probably? So Mundane is basically scaling on top of the scaling that already exists, except the a Mundane weapon will decrease its regular STR, DEX, INT and FTH scaling (much like how Raw increases base damage but decreases stat scaling)?

Hm hm... starting to make more sense. +50 scaling from STR would still be quite a lot for a +0 weapon though. I imagine A mundane +0 would have like E in STR at most?

#21 Posted by Nentisys (886 posts) -

Raw is shit. Never use them.

#22 Posted by Myrmicus (213 posts) -

@zevvion: That should be true, but Mundane seems to halve the weapon base damage AND wrecking its scaling, making the original scaling really poor. Thus, you shouldn't expect much damage from the old weapon's stats, before infusing it. That's why I consider infusing a weapon with high base damage and high scaling with mundane a poor choice,. And that's why mundane is best used on shitty weapons, with either poor scaling or low base damage.

Fear the Mundane Ladle of DOOM !
Avelyn and Santier Spear are my prefered mundane weapons, because they have no scaling.

#23 Posted by Sterling (2069 posts) -

@myrmicus: @zevvion: I just checked. The broadsword had its scaling dropped to a D in STR and an E in DEX. So the 50 was combined between them both. I thought they were both removed. I guess not.

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