Boo Vinny

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#1 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5554 posts) -

What the hell, I waited through 2 and a half hours of podcast to hear Jeff say something incredibly stupid to justify why Dark Souls isn’t a top 10 game and Vinny didn’t even bait him in to it. Outrage. Let alone the fact that Vinny spoke maybe for 2 minutes total in the first 2 goty podcasts combined, I demand humorously foolish justifications and nonsensical reasons to damn such a fine game as Dark Souls. I’m not going to go into why the hell is Gears on the list and what have you as I don’t actually care at all what’s on the list. The reason I listen to the bombcast is for excellent moments, and one of them I was looking forward to was half an hour of completely polarized, uninformed Dark Souls arguments (much like the 3 October podcasts), what I got was 5 minutes of crap. So fuck you Vinny.

Note: I gather the audience of this forum isn't too bright based on a received PM, that could just be the mod but knows. This is intended to be at least partially humorous and good-natured. The inverse of a backhanded compliment if you will. There is no other post on the front page of this forum regarding the topic hence the re-post. If said audience reveals itself as presumed I will not trouble you further, if there is a bright light shining in the vast darkness (Tomb of the Giants anyone?) somewhere I might stick around.

#2 Posted by SpaceRunaway (869 posts) -
@Fredchuckdave said:

Note: I gather the audience of this forum isn't too bright based on a received PM, that could just be the mod but knows. This is intended to be at least partially humorous and good-natured. The inverse of a backhanded compliment if you will. There is no other post on the front page of this forum regarding the topic hence the re-post. If said audience reveals itself as presumed I will not trouble you further, if there is a bright light shining in the vast darkness (Tomb of the Giants anyone?) somewhere I might stick around.

Maybe it's better if you don't.
#3 Posted by Mr_Skeleton (5145 posts) -

Boo Fredchuckdave, now you know how it feels!

#4 Posted by Vegetable_Side_Dish (1728 posts) -

I actually agree, even if the post doesn't really need such a combative tone towards Vinny. 
 
It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.' 

#5 Posted by phrosnite (3518 posts) -

Thou shall not say bad things about Vinny.

#6 Posted by david3cm (635 posts) -

Getting sarcasm across on the internet is hard, and I just assume the people who enjoy Dark Souls don't know what humor, joy, or happiness are. So I could defiantly see how someone could be blind to the fact that you weren't actually coming at Vinny, as I was.

Online
#7 Posted by Claude (16254 posts) -
@Fredchuckdave: I could tell you were joking. But alas, I don't care about Dark Souls or its fans.
#8 Posted by alternate (2711 posts) -

Dark Souls fans are becoming almost as annoying as die-hard Nintendo fans and I like both DS and Nintendo.

#9 Posted by DillonWerner (1528 posts) -

@phrosnite said:

Thou shall not say bad things about Vinny.

#10 Posted by StrainedEyes (1325 posts) -

Dark Souls won best RPG over at Ganetrailers, you can take some solace in that.

#11 Posted by Dany (7887 posts) -

#12 Posted by Deusx (1905 posts) -

I say Dark Souls deserves to be on that list but they are entitled to their own opinion. For me, it's one of the best games I've played in recent memory.

#13 Posted by Xtrememuffinman (958 posts) -
@Fredchuckdave said:

 So fuck you Vinny.

You may leave Giant Bomb now.
#14 Edited by imsh_pl (3296 posts) -

You know what? They did have a good argument. The game barely gives you any information about the crucial aspects of the gameplay. That wouldn't be so bad if the game would actually be fair. I've wasted thousands of souls on dexterity only to find that the developers did an incredibly poor job balancing the main attributes and that any dexterity builds are worthless compared to str/int/end builds.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

#15 Posted by plaintomato (599 posts) -

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

I actually agree, even if the post doesn't really need such a combative tone towards Vinny.

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

Yep, "there was this one inconsequential ring that nobody cares about that was described wrong". And, "I realized I was going to die if I wasn't careful so I didn't want to play it ever again".

It was bummer because there was no discussion on Dark Souls that had anything to do with the game - which was the way it had to be because there was only one person involved in the discussion that knew anything about the game. The disappointment then is that a real contender for GOTY didn't get any consideration because it wasn't something the GB staff had time or energy to actually understand with a full schedule of "AAA" holiday season blockbusters to crank through on easy mode.

So it's disappointing but understandable (well, understandable from a player perspective, not so much from a dedicated gaming website perspective). There's too much there to allow you to get much from a token play-through effort (or a manual that would fit in a game box); you have to dig in, or pass, you can't just dabble a bit. Which is exactly why DS is so consuming for those who do dig in.

#16 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

They play a lot of games. Sometimes games get overlooked.

Dark Souls kind of annoys me. I agree with the guys about it not explaining things well enough and being unbalanced. Some people might call that 'hardcore'. I just call it laziness on the part of the developers.

#17 Edited by StrainedEyes (1325 posts) -

@PrivateIronTFU said:

They play a lot of games. Sometimes games get overlooked.

Dark Souls kind of annoys me. I agree with the guys about it not explaining things well enough and being unbalanced. Some people might call that 'hardcore'. I just call it laziness on the part of the developers.

The rest of the game is too well designed for the lack of information to be anything but deliberate.

#18 Posted by Grissefar (2842 posts) -

It's just the nature of the site, but Jeffs dominance can definately feel like a chokehold on the site sometimes.

#19 Posted by redbliss (647 posts) -

why would they argue about a game that more than half of them didnt really care for?

#20 Posted by atomic_dumpling (2473 posts) -

@Fredchuckdave said:

Note: I gather the audience of this forum isn't too bright based on a received PM, that could just be the mod but knows.

When a thread has the word "fuck" both in the title and the posting itself and contains a load of crap, I will be silently clicking that sweet flag button every single time. Are you like 12?

#21 Posted by plaintomato (599 posts) -

@imsh_pl said:

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

The game didn't discourage experimentation: it had like 10 or 20 save slots. You just needed a separate save for experimentation. And a bad character build had zero impact on your ability to beat the game, it just gimped you for PVP (I did a dex build first too). And if you expected to get a solid PVP build based off of only one playthrough then you didn't read the tag line on the box before you bought it.

#22 Posted by Brendan (7817 posts) -

@Fredchuckdave said:

Note: I gather the audience of this forum isn't too bright based on a received PM, that could just be the mod but knows.

I remember when I was 13, and thought that my intellect was superior to others. Then I grew up.

#23 Posted by Liber (648 posts) -

YOU DEFEATED

#24 Posted by wewantsthering (1571 posts) -

@phrosnite said:

Thou shall not say bad things about Vinny.

Amen brother.

#25 Posted by Milkman (16851 posts) -

@Fredchuckdave said:

Note: I gather the audience of this forum isn't too bright based on a received PM, that could just be the mod but knows. This is intended to be at least partially humorous and good-natured. The inverse of a backhanded compliment if you will. There is no other post on the front page of this forum regarding the topic hence the re-post. If said audience reveals itself as presumed I will not trouble you further, if there is a bright light shining in the vast darkness (Tomb of the Giants anyone?) somewhere I might stick around.

Durr hurr all them big words. I dont understand.

Online
#26 Edited by mnzy (2914 posts) -

I've come to terms with the fact that most of the guys don't enjoy challenging games. Dark Souls is pretty much the epitome of challenge and reward game design and if you are a gamer that's not into it, this is the worst game imaginable for you.

The good thing about Giant Bomb is that I know that about them, so it doesn't bother me that Jeff thinks it's bad.

edit: Also, check giantasshole.com

Online
#27 Posted by imsh_pl (3296 posts) -

@plaintomato said:

@imsh_pl said:

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

And a bad character build had zero impact on your ability to beat the game,

Of course it does. I am lvl 80+ or so and still haven't beaten Seth after 60 hours because the weapon, armor and attribute balancing in the game is piss poor. Many people can easily beat the game two times with their finishing level half as low in the time I still have about a quarter of the game to beat because they didn't waste thousands of souls on a worthless stat and upgrading weapons which are easily outmatched by any lightly upgraded lightning weapon.

#28 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3103 posts) -

@imsh_pl: Almost every weapon I have does more damage than that shitty lightning spear, especially the ones which I didn't bother to put an element on. The scaling works well, and there are weapons that scale well with just about every stat- as someone with my stats scattered to the winds in every direction, and no real focus on one direction for the character, I still beat the game with a minimal amount of trouble.

I've got around 18 health, 28 strength, 20 Dexterity, 25-ish Endurance, 30 Faith, and 20 Intelligence, and I still managed to make it through that mess. Seath is kind of an asshole, but as long as you've got even marginal curse or magic resistance, easily accomplished by changing your armor sets, you can usually just run in, take a few swings, and then back off. He's a major pain if you're trying to cut off his tail for the Greatsword, but if you're not he's pretty standard as far as boss difficulty goes. What's he doing that's taking you out, exactly?

#29 Posted by JasonR86 (9715 posts) -

@Fredchuckdave:

For some reason I can't flag your shitty little post. So, I'll just say this; you're completely worthless as a member on these forums if this is representative of the quality of threads you post and how you feel it is necessary to interact with other members.

#30 Edited by freakin9 (1133 posts) -

I was a big Demon's Souls fan, might be my favorite game of this generation, but I was like "YUP" when they finally threw Dark Souls out of the Top 10.

#31 Posted by Humanity (9384 posts) -

@freakin9 said:

I was a big Demon's Souls fan, might be my favorite game of this generation, but I was like "YUP" when they finally threw Dark Souls out of the Top 10.

Yah. I liked Demons and I played Dark Souls and as much as I enjoyed those games for what they are I honestly can't think of a single friend I could recommend the game to with a clear conscience because I just know they wouldn't enjoy it. The DS series is like some weird fantasy equivalent of Forza where a very specific group of people will enjoy everything those games have to offer.

#32 Posted by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

It's a shame that they didn't like Dark Souls that much and their arguments against it were pretty dumb but its their list. I could not care less if the game receives zero GOTY awards because I still enjoy the game.

#33 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -

More of them played (and enjoyed?) Dark Souls than The Witcher 2. But I guess Vinny chose to keep the one he wanted to win more.

#34 Posted by arch4non (443 posts) -

@Fredchuckdave said:

So fuck you Vinny.

Dude, come on. It was in his Top 10 and there was absolutely no way he was going to talk anyone else into supporting it.

You have to keep in mind they were willing to fault Dark Souls for a mistranslation on a single item while giving Skyrim a pass on an entire platform (PS3) and admitting how shallow the combat was even though it was a core (possibly main) component of the game. I'm surprised they even remembered to bring it up at all, Vinny was the only one to play it for more than an hour.

#35 Posted by Dixavd (1358 posts) -

I think of it the same way I think of them and Skyward Sword and Trine 2, ultimately only one person could truely fight for each game, and both of them (Vinny and Patrick) are quite easy-going people about these kinds of things. Although I do find it odd with the limited experience the rest had that the Witcher 2 got on there, I guess it is a lot easier of a game to understand from a distance than others like Dark Souls and others which are easy to dismiss without understanding them them properly or spending a long time with them.

#36 Edited by mylifeforAiur (3485 posts) -

Eh, what are you going to do? Vinny merely realised that trying to argue for Dark Souls would've been a painfully futile act. I also agree that Jeff's argument was entirely half-hearted and he's clearly way too cynical about video games that reside outside of his wheelhouse. I love Jeff, but his negativity is off-putting at times.

#37 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@mylifeforAiur said:

 I love Jeff, but his negativity is off-putting at times.

Man, Amen to that.
#38 Posted by byterunner (308 posts) -

@Vegetable_Side_Dish: That is an oversimplification of Jeff's problem with the game.

#39 Posted by Vegetable_Side_Dish (1728 posts) -
@byterunner: OK, what else did he say in the podcast? He mentioned problems with information being given out, but he could only cite ONE example, which was that ring example. 
#40 Posted by MikkaQ (10294 posts) -

Well... Jeff kinda said it best when he said that there shouldn't be bad games on the list. Dark Souls just isn't a quality product. The production quality is super rough, the art is uninspired, the UI is ugly, the fact that you need external documentation to even know anything that's happening in your game, the busted balancing, etc.

I really like the combat, but when everything else about that game just kinda sucks... why include it on a list of the 10 best games? Especially this year, competition was kinda stiff.

#41 Posted by Shirogane (3578 posts) -

@plaintomato said:

@imsh_pl said:

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

The game didn't discourage experimentation: it had like 10 or 20 save slots. You just needed a separate save for experimentation. And a bad character build had zero impact on your ability to beat the game, it just gimped you for PVP (I did a dex build first too). And if you expected to get a solid PVP build based off of only one playthrough then you didn't read the tag line on the box before you bought it.

Also, those item descriptions are a problem with the english game i'm fairly certain, so many localization errors, i'm fairly sure that got fixed in the patch.

Still, Vinny disappointed, he must've been tired or something, he almost always brings craziness and humour to podcasts, this time he kinda just sat there listening. You know, why don't we just get a Vinnycast, with four Vinny's talking to each other?

#42 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@imsh_pl said:

You know what? They did have a good argument. The game barely gives you any information about the crucial aspects of the gameplay. That wouldn't be so bad if the game would actually be fair. I've wasted thousands of souls on dexterity only to find that the developers did an incredibly poor job balancing the main attributes and that any dexterity builds are worthless compared to str/int/end builds.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

The game does have issues with ASSUMING you played a lot of Demons souls.

#43 Posted by datarez (554 posts) -

Some of the lack of fight could have been that it was hour 8 of that podcast for them. I think they did all of the deliberation for all the categories in one day. I really enjoy the game but as people have said here it has issues and you still need a wiki to understand a lot of the game. I didn't play Demon Souls and I have to have a webpage open sometimes when I play. I still think it was a testament to the game and the buzz that they managed to get everyone in the office playing it at some point and talking about it in a conversation for the top 10.

#44 Posted by bybeach (4848 posts) -

@MikkaQ said:

Well... Jeff kinda said it best when he said that there shouldn't be bad games on the list. Dark Souls just isn't a quality product. The production quality is super rough, the art is uninspired, the UI is ugly, the fact that you need external documentation to even know anything that's happening in your game, the busted balancing, etc.

I really like the combat, but when everything else about that game just kinda sucks... why include it on a list of the 10 best games? Especially this year, competition was kinda stiff.

From what I have seen of it (strictly here at GB) I disagree with you about the art. Ryans charactor in fact I thought was unique and could have quite an expression on her face. It may get monotomous, but I really liked the setting and accompying graphics that I saw. I do understand it does slow down in framerate, so that could be a minus.

For everything else, I hope it is opinion. For example I pretty much know the game is suppossed to be hard core 'figure it out'. The menus and such strike me as RPG. I was suprised it didn't make the top 10, but then I myself champion even another game that failed that top 10 distinction also. I have Dark Souls so I will determine my own opinions for it in time. I'm expecting fustration so that alone won't determine anything, so we'll see about the cause.

#45 Edited by StrainedEyes (1325 posts) -

@MikkaQ said:

Well... Jeff kinda said it best when he said that there shouldn't be bad games on the list. Dark Souls just isn't a quality product. The production quality is super rough, the art is uninspired, the UI is ugly, the fact that you need external documentation to even know anything that's happening in your game, the busted balancing, etc.

I really like the combat, but when everything else about that game just kinda sucks... why include it on a list of the 10 best games? Especially this year, competition was kinda stiff.

I think the world alone deserves a lot of praise for it's varied art and how well it all connects together. It is one of the best designed open worlds I've seen.

#46 Posted by MikkaQ (10294 posts) -

@bybeach: I think the problem I really have with it's design is that it creates false difficulties. There is difficulty, and then there's just bad design. Yeah the game is supposed to be hardcore, yeah you have to figure it out, but the fact is, the game doesn't push or nudge you in any direction, and the punishment for mishandling your character development can involve restarting the whole game.

A true bullet-hell shmup is hard because it requires a ridiculous amount of skill, timing and memorization to beat without dying. It's not hard because the game obfuscates essential information about how to play it.

As for the art, well that's all subjective. I just don't like that kinda generic fantasy world look it has going.

#47 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5284 posts) -

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@imsh_pl said:

You know what? They did have a good argument. The game barely gives you any information about the crucial aspects of the gameplay. That wouldn't be so bad if the game would actually be fair. I've wasted thousands of souls on dexterity only to find that the developers did an incredibly poor job balancing the main attributes and that any dexterity builds are worthless compared to str/int/end builds.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

The game does have issues with ASSUMING you played a lot of Demons souls.

With Demon's Souls being a PS3 exclusive and Dark Souls coming to the 360 for the first time you can see that becoming an issue for some.

#48 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@imsh_pl said:

You know what? They did have a good argument. The game barely gives you any information about the crucial aspects of the gameplay. That wouldn't be so bad if the game would actually be fair. I've wasted thousands of souls on dexterity only to find that the developers did an incredibly poor job balancing the main attributes and that any dexterity builds are worthless compared to str/int/end builds.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

The game does have issues with ASSUMING you played a lot of Demons souls.

With Demon's Souls being a PS3 exclusive and Dark Souls coming to the 360 for the first time you can see that becoming an issue for some.

I caught on quickly because I blamed a bit of Demons souls. I also read the shit out of manuals and when I need help I google it.

#49 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5284 posts) -

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@imsh_pl said:

You know what? They did have a good argument. The game barely gives you any information about the crucial aspects of the gameplay. That wouldn't be so bad if the game would actually be fair. I've wasted thousands of souls on dexterity only to find that the developers did an incredibly poor job balancing the main attributes and that any dexterity builds are worthless compared to str/int/end builds.

@Vegetable_Side_Dish said:

It was ridiculous that the only reason brought up for Dark Souls being disqualified was 'the description of one item was wrong.'

It wasn't only one item, the game is terrible at informing the player about anything. And the whole game is designed in a way which completely punishes experimentation with stats/gameplay styles/using items.

The game does have issues with ASSUMING you played a lot of Demons souls.

With Demon's Souls being a PS3 exclusive and Dark Souls coming to the 360 for the first time you can see that becoming an issue for some.

I caught on quickly because I blamed a bit of Demons souls. I also read the shit out of manuals and when I need help I google it.

Some would argue that in 2011 a game shouldn't require outside knowledge to know how to play.

#50 Posted by Suedehead (111 posts) -

Dark Souls is just too niche. It's like anime.

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