Can someone explain Dark Souls?

#101 Posted by MURDERSMASH (251 posts) -

@cmblasko said:

@MURDERSMASH said:

@Animasta said:

@MURDERSMASH said:

@Animasta said:

@MURDERSMASH: it's not like mobs will automatically take off the same amount of health each run through, though. Once you figure out everything (and upgrade your weapons and stats) you can just sweep everything up no problem (it takes me like 2-3 minutes to get from the bonfire in undead burg to the wall where the taurus demon is, compared ot the 25 I had when I first played).

and if they didn't respawn, there's a good possibility you can end up fucked and having to restart the game over due to the losing of souls or even leveling up the wrong thing.

Well, the bonfires respawns them, don't they? Why not just have that be the respawn switch so that you can grind if you really want to?

isn't that already how it works? you can go kill the entire world and never go to a bonfire, but you will have to go to one to refill on estus flasks; you can light a bonfire without resting on one.

Yeah, BUT, if you die, you'll respawn at the last bonfire you've used, with all the mobs respawning as well. So my thought was to NOT have the mobs respawn unless you choose an option at the bonfires. I would play the hell out of the game if it was like that. As it is now, it's just too much of a timesink for how I like to play games.

That would completely betray the core philosophy of the game. You would be able to just brute force your way through the whole game instead of being forced to stop and actually think about what you are doing. The bonfire system is designed as it is because the game wants the player to learn more and get better with each attempt at a section until they are good enough to be able to clear it successfully without dying.

Well like I said, the mobs respawning is the only reason I don't want to play this game. So, if that betrays the core philosophy of Dark Souls, I really don't want to play Dark Souls.

#102 Posted by MURDERSMASH (251 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@MURDERSMASH said:

@Animasta said:

@MURDERSMASH said:

@Animasta said:

@MURDERSMASH: it's not like mobs will automatically take off the same amount of health each run through, though. Once you figure out everything (and upgrade your weapons and stats) you can just sweep everything up no problem (it takes me like 2-3 minutes to get from the bonfire in undead burg to the wall where the taurus demon is, compared ot the 25 I had when I first played).

and if they didn't respawn, there's a good possibility you can end up fucked and having to restart the game over due to the losing of souls or even leveling up the wrong thing.

Well, the bonfires respawns them, don't they? Why not just have that be the respawn switch so that you can grind if you really want to?

isn't that already how it works? you can go kill the entire world and never go to a bonfire, but you will have to go to one to refill on estus flasks; you can light a bonfire without resting on one.

Yeah, BUT, if you die, you'll respawn at the last bonfire you've used, with all the mobs respawning as well. So my thought was to NOT have the mobs respawn unless you choose an option at the bonfires. I would play the hell out of the game if it was like that. As it is now, it's just too much of a timesink for how I like to play games.

then how would it be hard to get to your bloodstain? why include the bloodstain system at all, at that point?

say there are 5 single guys in a row and you die at #4. in your scenario, all you would need to do would be to kill the 4th one which would make it extremely anti climatic.

Similar to how corpse-runs in WoW used to work, I guess? Sometimes your body would get stuck in a place where you can't respawn without the mob aggroing and killing you again. It's still tense, but it's far more forgiving, and you could use the spirit-res option if you really wanted to, which costs you a bunch of durability cost and debuffs you for a bit.

#103 Posted by MikkaQ (10284 posts) -

@Hailinel: Well for one I think there's a middle ground between Bayonetta and Dark Souls, the slow pace isn't the problem, it's the inability to take advantage of that pace. What's the point of having these long animations you have to watch if there isn't a way to interact with them? Might as well not be playing at all.

Also as it's a design decision, I of course think it needs to be justified. I want artistic or functional justification for that decision or I'm just going to chalk it up as a poorly made one. I'd love to hear what the devs had to say about that choice. It's an interesting one and one I don't agree with.

At the end of the day it's not a big deal, but it's the one feature that's getting in my way of fully appreciating the game. That just makes it hurt all the more for me, cause it's such a minor tweak.

@Animasta: Yeah that axe. I was told there were faster weapons, but that they didn't get that much faster. That's the discouraging bit.

@Gahzoo: While that is true, most fighting games do have a cancelling mechanic so one whiff doesn't throw your whole match. In 2 hours of Dark Souls, the slow animations have caused my death dozens of times already.

@Ares42: That makes sense, but also to be punished for having good reaction speed, and expecting to be able to use it, is basically contrary to all the skills I've built up playing video games my entire life. It's a kick in a nuts, so to speak. But whatever, I can still deal with it and enjoy the game.

@pyrodactyl: That's solid advice, I'm probably going to spec towards having the fastest character I can. I find myself dodging, doing hit-and-run style attacks and kiting enemies more than staying my ground and blocking stuff.

#104 Posted by StarvingGamer (8158 posts) -

@MikkaQ said:

@Hailinel said:

@MikkaQ: In Dark Souls, as in life, you can't just cancel out momentum. I appreciate the fact that the game takes weapon weight into account as it does.

I know it's a deliberate choice, but I struggle to see the justification. If the game was supposed to be like life you wouldn't be encountering gigantic crows that fly you off to cool looking medieval castles. I mean.. I wish life was like that, but hey.

Weakening a really fun combat system to make the game's pace more deliberate just really strikes me the wrong way. I'm not too bothered by over-animation in games as long as you can cancel to some degree. I'm totally cool with watching that slow-ass ladder animation every time, and I don't mind the huge wind up on my axe, but I should at least be able to drop out of the animation mid-wind-up, that would be more realistic, really.

I mean how fun would it be if you could like trick the enemies and invaders by raising your axe, but then pivoting away at the last second? That was probably a legit tactic back when axes were common anyway.

It's not a matter of pacing, it's a matter of focus. In games like God of War or Bayonetta or Devil May Cry, most of the player's focus is on "what am I doing?" This is because the freedom of character movement generally allows players to respond to enemies mid-combo in a reflexive manner. Thinking back on these games I can clearly remember the various attacks and combos I could do, but would have a hard time describing the attacks of a majority of the enemies.

Games like Dark Souls and Monster Hunter, however, have a lot more in common with fighting games in that the player's focus should be on "what is my enemy doing?" When played at high levels, these games are much more passive and reactive. Players that like these games tend to find them more rewarding as there is a higher degree of knowledge required for success. You need to know your enemy's capabilities just as well as you know your own. As a result I can easily describe the various attack animations of almost every enemy in Monster Hunter, from start-up frames to active frames to recovery frames.

While there is nothing wrong with finding one school of design more appealing than the other, as long as a game is balanced within itself I don't see any room for objective criticism on a mechanical level. In Street Fighter if you throw out a low roundhouse and whiff, you're going to get punished. In Dark Souls if you swing your sword willy-nilly, you can expect the same results.

These games require a higher degree of patience and focus which is easily off-putting when so many games are all about instant gratification and player empowerment. But I wouldn't have them any other way.

#105 Posted by Dixego (384 posts) -

@Akeldama said:

This thread makes me sad.

#106 Edited by SoldierG654342 (1763 posts) -

The best barometer I can think of for if a person will like a Souls game is the the jump arc and knock-back in original Castlevania. If you think those things are bullshit, then you most likely aren't going to enjoy a Souls game.

It's Proactivity versus Reactivity.

#107 Posted by Nadril (527 posts) -

I don't really see how people find the animations in this game slow. Sure, if you're using some big-ass 2H you are going to take a moment to swing, but there are plenty of very fast weapons out there with hardly any animation to them. But yeah, do people expect to be swinging around this huge weapon like it's nothing? I don't really get it.

Hell in my run I'm doing right now (making a str/int character) I am using a flameberge, probably one of the slowest weapons in the game. I can handle stuff just fine, and the animation never feels like it's screwing me over because I play it deliberately.

Anyways, why do I love Dark Souls? (other than the combat, which I love). For starters, the level design is wonderful. It's not quite an open world but it still gives you plenty of options on where to go and how to tackle things. There are tons of little shortcuts and such you can learn about. Other than that though I really just love the variety of classes you can make in the game. I'm not talking about just the standard "mage/rogue/tank/etc." but there are so many cool builds you can do in this game, and they all feel very different. People will focus a build around a certain weapon because there is such a large amount of them in the game, and they all have unique animations and often times unique properties as well. I love just doing new builds, leveling them up, and using them in PvP (which is a lot of fun).

Also one last thing about the animations, but the reason why I think they work in Dark Souls is because there is a really good weight behind all of the actions you do.

#108 Posted by wefwefasdf (6729 posts) -

One piece of advice to any new player: get the Drake Sword.

#109 Posted by cmblasko (1203 posts) -

@MURDERSMASH: And that's fine, it's not for everyone. Myself and lots of others love it just the way it is. I'm sure it would be appreciated if everyone else accepted that and stopped trying to label certain aspects of the game as faulty when they are working as intended.

#110 Posted by MrXakaRebel (58 posts) -

I really wish people who don't like the game/aren't good at it (often those groups are one in the same) would stop complaining and demanding explanations. Go play something else, or go outside, or read a book. Do anything other than try to encroach on other people's enjoyment of the product. If you need your hand held and need "fast animations", which the game actually does have plenty of by the way, and you probably are just doing literally everything wrong, there are a million and 1 Dynasty Warrior games being cranked out for people like you. Have at them, cause I don't want to play that shit, but you also won't see me going onto a forum complaining about their mechanics or demanding that someone explains to me why they're fun either.

#111 Posted by Green_Incarnate (1788 posts) -

Dark Souls is a game about trolling. First the game trolls you. Then you troll the game. You eventually win by becoming the biggest dick in PvP.

#112 Posted by golguin (3894 posts) -
@MikkaQ

@Hailinel said:

@MikkaQ: In Dark Souls, as in life, you can't just cancel out momentum. I appreciate the fact that the game takes weapon weight into account as it does.

I know it's a deliberate choice, but I struggle to see the justification. If the game was supposed to be like life you wouldn't be encountering gigantic crows that fly you off to cool looking medieval castles. I mean.. I wish life was like that, but hey.

Weakening a really fun combat system to make the game's pace more deliberate just really strikes me the wrong way. I'm not too bothered by over-animation in games as long as you can cancel to some degree. I'm totally cool with watching that slow-ass ladder animation every time, and I don't mind the huge wind up on my axe, but I should at least be able to drop out of the animation mid-wind-up, that would be more realistic, really.

I mean how fun would it be if you could like trick the enemies and invaders by raising your axe, but then pivoting away at the last second? That was probably a legit tactic back when axes were common anyway.

Who says you can't fake someone out with a pivot? I lost yesterday to someone who did just that with a great scythe. They faked an attack, I tried to parry, and then he attacked for real and got me. It has very wide sweeping attack that can hit at multiple angles.
#113 Edited by jakob187 (21665 posts) -

I don't understand the question that you are presenting. My character does exactly what I tell him to with my controller, and when he doesn't, it's because I fucked up my inputs or I did something I knew I shouldn't have or I got too overzealous in my controlling of the character.

If anything, I think Dark Souls gives you a ton of control over your character that other games don't offer. You may be getting hung up with animation priorities from your character and others. Those take time to get used to. Honestly, just playing the shit out of the game makes all the difference in the world.

And if you can't get the hang and feel for it within a solid month or two of playing it, I'll leave you with this comforting piece of advice:

I level-1 run this game to the end.

#114 Edited by golguin (3894 posts) -

@MikkaQ

@Hailinel: Well for one I think there's a middle ground between Bayonetta and Dark Souls, the slow pace isn't the problem, it's the inability to take advantage of that pace. What's the point of having these long animations you have to watch if there isn't a way to interact with them? Might as well not be playing at all.

Also as it's a design decision, I of course think it needs to be justified. I want artistic or functional justification for that decision or I'm just going to chalk it up as a poorly made one. I'd love to hear what the devs had to say about that choice. It's an interesting one and one I don't agree with.

At the end of the day it's not a big deal, but it's the one feature that's getting in my way of fully appreciating the game. That just makes it hurt all the more for me, cause it's such a minor tweak.

@Animasta: Yeah that axe. I was told there were faster weapons, but that they didn't get that much faster. That's the discouraging bit.

@Gahzoo: While that is true, most fighting games do have a cancelling mechanic so one whiff doesn't throw your whole match. In 2 hours of Dark Souls, the slow animations have caused my death dozens of times already.

@Ares42: That makes sense, but also to be punished for having good reaction speed, and expecting to be able to use it, is basically contrary to all the skills I've built up playing video games my entire life. It's a kick in a nuts, so to speak. But whatever, I can still deal with it and enjoy the game.

@pyrodactyl: That's solid advice, I'm probably going to spec towards having the fastest character I can. I find myself dodging, doing hit-and-run style attacks and kiting enemies more than staying my ground and blocking stuff.

If your weapon has a long animation it's because it's heavy and deals heavy damage. The fastest weapons deal the least amount of damage per hit. That's the balance for the animations. If you miss a swing with a greatsword that animation is there to punish you. I use a katana so I can actually miss a swing and dodge out of the way if an oncoming attack is coming. My weapon beats a greatsword everytime. If I accidentally take a hit from a greatsword I'll get stun locked and die from the next 3 swings. That's how you create a balanced system.

EDIT: Here is a video with some nice Great Scythe action. It will give you an idea of how to use a weapon with a long animation and huge window for punishment if you miss. I assure you that the action is faster than you'd think it is when someone knows how to use it.

#115 Posted by ShiftyMagician (2129 posts) -

@SpikeSpiegel said:

One piece of advice to any new player: get the Drake Sword.

I'd subjectively disagree on that one. I'm speaking as a new player who hasn't finished the game yet when I say that not using it teaches the player how to fight enemies way better than taking advantage of a sword that can kill enemies way easier early in the game. Not using that sword got me to learn how the animation priority works by a little trial and error, observation and honing of my skills through experiencing many battles with enemies. Made the first time I beat a boss on the first try with my own skills and regular equipment oh so satisfying.

#116 Posted by MrXakaRebel (58 posts) -

@ShiftyMagician said:

@SpikeSpiegel said:

One piece of advice to any new player: get the Drake Sword.

I'd subjectively disagree on that one. I'm speaking as a new player who hasn't finished the game yet when I say that not using it teaches the player how to fight enemies way better than taking advantage of a sword that can kill enemies way easier early in the game. Not using that sword got me to learn how the animation priority works by a little trial and error, observation and honing of my skills through experiencing many battles with enemies. Made the first time I beat a boss on the first try with my own skills and regular equipment oh so satisfying.

Correct, Drake sword tends to be a crutch that can leave you pretty unprepared when you inevitably have to abandon it since it doesn't scale to your stats like other weapons.

#117 Posted by yoshisaur (2708 posts) -

Dark Souls is, and always will be, that type of game that is so merciless in both game-play and (UI) design, that people attribute that to manliness and like it simply for it's rarity. It reminds me of the same type of mentality you have to have to enjoy something like Day Z. It's one shit-fall of a game, (yeah, it's beta) that challenges the imaginary "laziness" gamers have today and that automatically builds it credit.

#118 Posted by tourgen (4478 posts) -

@Akeldama said:

@FirePrince said:

@Akeldama:

Do I really have to watch a YouTube video and look stuff up to understand the story? Shouldn't the game make sure I get the story? Isn't it enough that I have to consult a wiki in order to understand what I'm doing/buying/leveling etc?

I've gotten to the first bell, and I have found no semblance of a story. Am I honestly missing something, or is it the game's fault?

Question everything.

My point is not that you need to watch that (excellent) series of videos to absorb the story, I am pointing those videos out to show you the story indeed exists. You can speculate and dig through the world just like that guy and thousands like him have.

but what if I just want to sit slack-jawed eating cheetos while a Cinematic Experience is force-fed to me? Digging in, paying attention, and using critical reasoning to infer what is going on as I play is WORK! Also why can't I just mash on parry + attack and win like all other good games? Dark Souls combat sucks QED.

#119 Posted by cmblasko (1203 posts) -

@ck1nd: Nope.

#120 Posted by Akeldama (4244 posts) -

@tourgen said:

@Akeldama said:

@FirePrince said:

@Akeldama:

Do I really have to watch a YouTube video and look stuff up to understand the story? Shouldn't the game make sure I get the story? Isn't it enough that I have to consult a wiki in order to understand what I'm doing/buying/leveling etc?

I've gotten to the first bell, and I have found no semblance of a story. Am I honestly missing something, or is it the game's fault?

Question everything.

My point is not that you need to watch that (excellent) series of videos to absorb the story, I am pointing those videos out to show you the story indeed exists. You can speculate and dig through the world just like that guy and thousands like him have.

but what if I just want to sit slack-jawed eating cheetos while a Cinematic Experience is force-fed to me?

Play Call of Duty and don't post in this thread.

#121 Posted by wefwefasdf (6729 posts) -

@ShiftyMagician: I didn't run into that issue, but I can see where you're coming from. Getting confident with combat is important, but making it a little bit easier isn't a bad thing, especially when you consider that (or at least I think) the best portions of the game are much further into it.

Before I stopped playing, I was about halfway through NG++

#122 Posted by Mikemcn (6982 posts) -

I think it controls well, the camera doesn't always work great, and the bosses often have really janky animations that can fuck you over, but i'm getting a feel for it.

#123 Posted by golguin (3894 posts) -

@SpikeSpiegel said:

@ShiftyMagician: I didn't run into that issue, but I can see where you're coming from. Getting confident with combat is important, but making it a little bit easier isn't a bad thing, especially when you consider that (or at least I think) the best portions of the game are much further into it.

Before I stopped playing, I was about halfway through NG++

I've only started parrying for the past 15 or so hours of gameplay and I've logged in over 450 hours (380 on one character and the rest on another). Being able to confidently parry the swing of a greatsword or ultra greatsword is a great feeling. It's amazing how long it can take to get used to blocking and stamina conservation, then moving onto dodging and getting comfortable with your invincibility frames, and finally getting the hang of parrying.

The only weapons I'm pretty proficient in using are the Uchigatana (main), Great Lord Greatsword (secondary), and the Great Scythe (for fun). My pyromancy is also pretty tough to dodge.

#124 Edited by Nikoran (165 posts) -

Dark Souls is very easy, once you know what you're doing. Honestly, once you get a good build and you where to go, what to do etc etc the game just breezes through.

I found this out when I found out my first character was absolute rubbish and started a new game. I went with a wanderer dex build with the Uchigatana and the game is just easy as feck.

Just take your time, get a good build and you'll enjoy the game.

#125 Posted by Beaudacious (927 posts) -

I find people are simply repeating points and saying the gameplay is good without justification. I feel as if there's more ego stroking in this thread then real discussion about the game.

I also don't think my point is understood. In general I like the game, I enjoy my time spent in the game. My issue is that a game so intently focused on the gameplay mechanic of melee combat is so lacking in complexity. Yes there are other classes, but am I suppose to play the game with every single class? Yes there are other weapons, but am I suppose to be built to use all weapons? Do I have enough materials to upgrade multiple weapons? I have no issue with the weight or speed of combat, never said I did. To me a game so intently focused on the basic combat of each encounter lacks depth to make it interesting. If you want to make a game merciless, have the enemies learn, allow full directional blocking, allow you to pick the two action types per weapon or preferably increase the number of actions, why not have multi hit-boxes for each limb(s) that you can strategically strike? Relying on puzzle combat seems like a cop out in this day an age, and making the puzzle more difficult through random mechanics instead of developing in-depth combat mechanics is sloppy.

Why is weapon action type arbitrarily tied to weapons?

Why does the AI never learn from its mistakes?

Why do mob attacks go through corners of structures?

Why do I have to stand on stairs to chop at feet?

Why can't I swing above me to hit a floating enemy?

Why is there a lock on system?

Why is every solution to mini-bosses circle strafe?

Why are all hit-boxes larger then the models?

Why am I tired of doing the same combo for every trash mob?

Why does a giant spinning enemy blade go through other enemy mobs?

Why does the game magically let me kite mobs one by one within the same line of sight?

Why do I magically teleport into an enemies grab animation being outside the models reach?

Why is rolling/backstep the only type of dodge for every class?

Why is slow walking in leather stealth?

I feel as if the developer for this game wasn't stuck in some time bubble of game development, it has enough interesting parts to be an amazing game. I see what three dudes in a living room are working on, then look at From Software a company that's been around for ages in game studio terms with slight disappointment. I'm convinced figuring out the part that makes Dark Souls, Darks Souls was blind luck ,and stagnate practices. As an owner of most of From's catalog I can testify they've never had an original idea to date. Keep the old school parts like the unforgiving nature of the game, but inject some modern industry developments.

#126 Edited by mordukai (7150 posts) -

@Beaudacious: Why is a Puzzle Combat mechanics so bad these days? You say it but don't really explain yourself.

Also I think a lot of your issues are simply hardware, and engine limitation. Maybe if FROM get to make another Souls type game for next gen console then they would be able to address some or all your issues.

Frankly from reading your posts on this thread it seems that you are in the same position as Jeff where for you to understand and like Dark Souls better would mean that FROM would have to make changes that would make Dark Souls fans hate the game.

#127 Posted by Animasta (14677 posts) -

@Beaudacious: it sounds like you just want it even more complicated; if it gets too complicated, it's going to be too unforgiving, especially with how damaging enemies are.

#128 Posted by Ares42 (2627 posts) -

@Beaudacious: I think you're focusing too much on the combat. This game isn't all about combat. Actually, I would go as far as saying combat is not what keeps a lot of people coming back. I think a lot of your questions can be answered with "because the combat is already functional and entertaining". They could've probably spent a ton more time developing the combat and made it extremely intricate as you seem to wish it was, but instead they spent time developing other systems and building a world.

#129 Posted by Levio (1784 posts) -

I'm surprised everyone here is discussing the combat/story as to whether they like the Souls games or not. In my experience, it was the fact that the dungeons respawn after every death that was absolutely intolerable. If these games are built around trial-and-error combat, why the fuck would they make you replay ~15 minutes of combat with punching-bag zombies to get back to the enemy which killed you so you can test one more attack type (before being sent back to the beginning again)?

I'm all for character death having gameplay impacts, but corpse runs are never the right answer.

#130 Posted by golguin (3894 posts) -

@Levio said:

I'm surprised everyone here is discussing the combat/story as to whether they like the Souls games or not. In my experience, it was the fact that the dungeons respawn after every death that was absolutely intolerable. If these games are built around trial-and-error combat, why the fuck would they make you replay ~15 minutes of combat with punching-bag zombies to get back to the enemy which killed you so you can test one more attack type (before being sent back to the beginning again)?

I'm all for character death having gameplay impacts, but corpse runs are never the right answer.

Except that the games aren't designed around trial and error combat. I don't even know what you're saying. Trial and error is something like saying here are 20 doors and one will lead to the next area while the other 19 are death. Keep trying until you open the correct door.

In your example, which is the "enemy that killed you"? I can pretty much visualize most of the game in my head and the enemies so I'd like to know the area and enemies you are referencing in your example and how its 15 minutes of combat.

#131 Posted by envane (1162 posts) -

@Beaudacious: jesus christ its not puzzle combat , you clearly just fucking suck .. give up this charade , youre not gonna win the fight with words , I would literally fight you to the death in some macarbe demonstration of how fucking serious i am about this game .. and thats not entirely a good thing .. but on the other extreme you just keep perpetuating this quite clear troll of a thread , literally re-iterating the same fucking point about the combat .. it looks like you've researched it more than most ppl who just like the game because its the thing to like .. so kudos .. but seriously get of your high horse .. you own most of from-software's games then you should understand they are a budget ass company that is lucky to have any autonomy with the stranglehold of namco bandai on them. not every game has the budget to live up to AAA standards.

fuck you make me ramble some incoherent shit .. but i assure you i have more passion about the things I enjoy , than some game i arbitrarily want to tear down..

"Why is weapon action type arbitrarily tied to weapons?" are you seriously fucking that dumb ,... WHY DOES MY HEAVY SWORD ARBITRARILY SWING SLOW .. ?? is that what youre asking ?? .. for all the attempts at constructive conversation , you do sure like to fill your posts with troll comments.

You clearly have no further valid criticisms of the game , a game which you clearly know nothing about apart from surface level reactions which imo could be gathered from anyones video .. i.e im calling bullshit on you even playing the game at this point.

#132 Edited by SirOptimusPrime (1997 posts) -

I would like to formally submit that envane's opinions and punctuation do not reflect those of the greater Dark Souls fandom.

Thank you.

#133 Posted by envane (1162 posts) -

@SirOptimusPrime: never said they did .. im just going out on a limb here tho and assuming that what i just said is far more salient than the reaction he would get from other parts of the souls community.

#134 Posted by AyKay_47 (293 posts) -

@envane said:

@SirOptimusPrime: never said they did .. im just going out on a limb here tho and assuming that what i just said is far more salient than the reaction he would get from other parts of the souls community.

I'm with you, bro. You have my vote for representative of the Souls community.

#135 Posted by envane (1162 posts) -

@AyKay_47: awww shucks ... thanks but no thanks ..

#136 Posted by pyrodactyl (1980 posts) -

@Levio said:

I'm surprised everyone here is discussing the combat/story as to whether they like the Souls games or not. In my experience, it was the fact that the dungeons respawn after every death that was absolutely intolerable. If these games are built around trial-and-error combat, why the fuck would they make you replay ~15 minutes of combat with punching-bag zombies to get back to the enemy which killed you so you can test one more attack type (before being sent back to the beginning again)?

I'm all for character death having gameplay impacts, but corpse runs are never the right answer.

Stop trying to brute force your way through the game. Reflexes and skill are secondary to good preperation and knowledge of the systems. Besides, every boss in that game is 2 minutes away from the nearest bonfire if you know what you're doing. There's really no need to complain about respawning ennemies.

#137 Posted by TrafalgarLaw (1117 posts) -

Go back to Skyrim? Clearly games need to hold your hands more and level you up after each enemy, urgh...the instant satisfaction generation.

Aside from the shoddy engine at times and some minor glitches, everything about this game is deliberate. Game isn't about trial and error. It's about taking even taking the smallest step in careful consideration.

#138 Edited by Irvandus (2877 posts) -

The only way I can explain is by putting 3 things I love about it

  1. Atmosphere: Alone, scared, yet in a world strangely inciting.
  2. Combat: The combat is like Punch Out in RPG form. It's all about the counter, the well placed hit, scanning your enemy for a weakness or flaw then destroying them. Sure some things are janky in comparison to other action games and rpgs these days but it's the satisfaction of the victory that makes it great.
  3. Pay Off: When you defeat a boss in Dark Souls it is so much more gratifying then anything else in video games.
#139 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1763 posts) -

@Beaudacious said:

I find people are simply repeating points and saying the gameplay is good without justification. I feel as if there's more ego stroking in this thread then real discussion about the game.

I also don't think my point is understood. In general I like the game, I enjoy my time spent in the game. My issue is that a game so intently focused on the gameplay mechanic of melee combat is so lacking in complexity. Yes there are other classes, but am I suppose to play the game with every single class? Yes there are other weapons, but am I suppose to be built to use all weapons? Do I have enough materials to upgrade multiple weapons? I have no issue with the weight or speed of combat, never said I did. To me a game so intently focused on the basic combat of each encounter lacks depth to make it interesting. If you want to make a game merciless, have the enemies learn, allow full directional blocking, allow you to pick the two action types per weapon or preferably increase the number of actions, why not have multi hit-boxes for each limb(s) that you can strategically strike? Relying on puzzle combat seems like a cop out in this day an age, and making the puzzle more difficult through random mechanics instead of developing in-depth combat mechanics is sloppy.

Why is weapon action type arbitrarily tied to weapons?

Why does the AI never learn from its mistakes?

Why do mob attacks go through corners of structures?

Why do I have to stand on stairs to chop at feet?

Why can't I swing above me to hit a floating enemy?

Why is there a lock on system?

Why is every solution to mini-bosses circle strafe?

Why are all hit-boxes larger then the models?

Why am I tired of doing the same combo for every trash mob?

Why does a giant spinning enemy blade go through other enemy mobs?

Why does the game magically let me kite mobs one by one within the same line of sight?

Why do I magically teleport into an enemies grab animation being outside the models reach?

Why is rolling/backstep the only type of dodge for every class?

Why is slow walking in leather stealth?

I feel as if the developer for this game wasn't stuck in some time bubble of game development, it has enough interesting parts to be an amazing game. I see what three dudes in a living room are working on, then look at From Software a company that's been around for ages in game studio terms with slight disappointment. I'm convinced figuring out the part that makes Dark Souls, Darks Souls was blind luck ,and stagnate practices. As an owner of most of From's catalog I can testify they've never had an original idea to date. Keep the old school parts like the unforgiving nature of the game, but inject some modern industry developments.

At least speaking for myself and my personal experiences with talking to other people about the Souls series, you are in the Depression stage. First there's Denial (It's not that hard, I just got careless), then Anger (I rolled! That was bullshit!), then Bargaining (This game would be so much better if I could only...), and now Depression, or "Why did they make it like this?" Everyone that I have talked to, both in person and on the internet, that kept with the game eventually reached Acceptance, but the key is that you have to keep at it.

Where are you, might I ask? Because for most people it's not until Anor Londo that the game starts to "click" for most people.

#140 Edited by Levio (1784 posts) -

@golguin said:

Except that the games aren't designed around trial and error combat. I don't even know what you're saying. Trial and error is something like saying here are 20 doors and one will lead to the next area while the other 19 are death. Keep trying until you open the correct door.

In your example, which is the "enemy that killed you"? I can pretty much visualize most of the game in my head and the enemies so I'd like to know the area and enemies you are referencing in your example and how its 15 minutes of combat.

You really want me to name specific encounters? How about the shield enemy that can only be hurt by 2 handed attacks? Or the guys with polearms (whom I never even figured out the proper counter to). Or the dragon that pops out of nowhere and sets the bridge on fire while I was fighting dudes? Or the fact that there's numerous unexplained environmental things like the slimes, swirls on the ground, and swirly doors which offer the player zero explanation as to what they are. All of which are at the top of the castle thing before even reaching the first (mostly useless) gate-opening checkpoint.

EDIT: Oh, I sincerely apologize, the swirly-death floor trap near the bottom of the castle, only about 5 minutes in.

#141 Posted by Legion_ (1270 posts) -

@Beaudacious: That girl has a incredibly long tongue.

...

:O

#142 Posted by whatarethesedev (1 posts) -

I would highly recommend tracking down a tutorial of how to get the drake sword early on. It is super powerful for a large portion of the early game and will help you get your bearings.

Online
#143 Posted by pyrodactyl (1980 posts) -

@Levio said:

@golguin said:

Except that the games aren't designed around trial and error combat. I don't even know what you're saying. Trial and error is something like saying here are 20 doors and one will lead to the next area while the other 19 are death. Keep trying until you open the correct door.

In your example, which is the "enemy that killed you"? I can pretty much visualize most of the game in my head and the enemies so I'd like to know the area and enemies you are referencing in your example and how its 15 minutes of combat.

You really want me to name specific encounters? How about the shield enemy that can only be hurt by 2 handed attacks? Or the guys with polearms (whom I never even figured out the proper counter to). Or the dragon that pops out of nowhere and sets the bridge on fire while I was fighting dudes? Or the fact that there's numerous unexplained environmental things like the slimes, swirls on the ground, and swirly doors which offer the player zero explanation as to what they are. All of which are at the top of the castle thing before even reaching the first (mostly useless) gate-opening checkpoint.

EDIT: Oh, I sincerely apologize, the swirly-death floor trap near the bottom of the castle, only about 5 minutes in.

Ok, I'll try to address each situation even though I struggle to figure out what exact situation/ennemy you're referencing half the time.

Shield ennemy: try not hitting the shield if you want to do damage with a one handed weapon

Guys with polarms: here is are some polearms:

longue sticks with sharp stuff on the end. There is no ennemy in dark souls that uses them outside of black/white knights and you shouldn't be fighting those before you get to anor londo.

If you're talking about the undead knight with the spear and shield, just open your guard until he attacks than you block or dodge to get around him and backstabe/ murder him.

Dragon: there is GIANT OBVIOUS scorsh marks all over the bridge that signal the iminent danger. Just lure him out than hide. When he's more chill, run until you make it to the stairs or the end of the bridge.

Swirly-death floor trap: I honestly have no clue what you're talking about... The only trap near the beggining is a boulder and it's not even dangerous. It's there to teach you to be careful about traps.

#144 Edited by Hungry (165 posts) -

@Levio said:

@golguin said:

Except that the games aren't designed around trial and error combat. I don't even know what you're saying. Trial and error is something like saying here are 20 doors and one will lead to the next area while the other 19 are death. Keep trying until you open the correct door.

In your example, which is the "enemy that killed you"? I can pretty much visualize most of the game in my head and the enemies so I'd like to know the area and enemies you are referencing in your example and how its 15 minutes of combat.

You really want me to name specific encounters? How about the shield enemy that can only be hurt by 2 handed attacks? Or the guys with polearms (whom I never even figured out the proper counter to). Or the dragon that pops out of nowhere and sets the bridge on fire while I was fighting dudes? Or the fact that there's numerous unexplained environmental things like the slimes, swirls on the ground, and swirly doors which offer the player zero explanation as to what they are. All of which are at the top of the castle thing before even reaching the first (mostly useless) gate-opening checkpoint.

EDIT: Oh, I sincerely apologize, the swirly-death floor trap near the bottom of the castle, only about 5 minutes in.

lol.

Not a single enemy is impervious to one-handed weapons. Try parrying or attacking when the enemy doesn't have their shield up. Guys with polearms have very narrow attack hitboxes and usually long recovery and easy-to-parry windup. You can just hit them quickly, block and retaliate, parry, or dodge and backstab or even just dodge and attack normally. The bridge with the dragon has scorch marks and when you get near the scorch marks you can hear the sound of heavy wings beating. What is so hard to understand about the slimes? They don't take a lot of damage from physical attack but they are really slow. If you had looked up while moving through the Depths you would have seen them on the ceiling. I have no clue what swirls on the ground are or what swirly doors are, but I don't remember anything of that description killing you or being "trial-and-error." I also have no clue what mostly-useless gate-opening checkpoint you are referring to or what the castle thing is.

Are you playing Dark Souls? Because it sure doesn't sound like you are. Either way, it sounds way too hard for the amount of effort you want to put into playing a game. You should take it easy and observe your challenges before you rush in head long. The fact that Dark Souls punishes careless gameplay is one of the reasons people love it so much.

I honestly can't tell if you are mad at the game for wounding your ego so severely or if you are a huge troll.

#145 Posted by Levio (1784 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: You're posting to tell me how to counter enemies, when my point is that the game doesn't explain how to counter these enemies. Do you seriously not see the irony of that?

#146 Edited by Hungry (165 posts) -

@Levio said:

@pyrodactyl: You're posting to tell me how to counter enemies, when my point is that the game doesn't explain how to counter these enemies. Do you seriously not see the irony of that?

lol

That is because the game wants you to figure it out yourself. If a guy is holding his shield up are you really going to say that the game has to tell you that hitting it while the shield is up won't work? Instead of running into a fight and hitting R1 a bunch you should hold your own shield up (or be ready to dodge if you like playing shieldless) and observe the enemy before you start fighting.

#147 Edited by Levio (1784 posts) -

@Hungry said:

@Levio said:

@pyrodactyl: You're posting to tell me how to counter enemies, when my point is that the game doesn't explain how to counter these enemies. Do you seriously not see the irony of that?

lol

That is because the game wants you to figure it out yourself. If a guy is holding his shield up are you really going to say that the game has to tell you that hitting it while the shield is up won't work? Instead of running into a fight and hitting R1 a bunch you should hold your own shield up (or be ready to dodge if you like playing shieldless) and observe the enemy before you start fighting.

Gee, you say I should wait for him to swing his sword and then attack him? That was my strategy for attempt number 1.

#148 Posted by Animasta (14677 posts) -

@Levio said:

@Hungry said:

@Levio said:

@pyrodactyl: You're posting to tell me how to counter enemies, when my point is that the game doesn't explain how to counter these enemies. Do you seriously not see the irony of that?

lol

That is because the game wants you to figure it out yourself. If a guy is holding his shield up are you really going to say that the game has to tell you that hitting it while the shield is up won't work? Instead of running into a fight and hitting R1 a bunch you should hold your own shield up (or be ready to dodge if you like playing shieldless) and observe the enemy before you start fighting.

Gee, wait for him to swing his sword and then attack him? That was attempt number 1.

then his attack bounces off your shield and you can hit him then.

it's not that hard

#149 Posted by Levio (1784 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@Levio said:

@Hungry said:

@Levio said:

@pyrodactyl: You're posting to tell me how to counter enemies, when my point is that the game doesn't explain how to counter these enemies. Do you seriously not see the irony of that?

lol

That is because the game wants you to figure it out yourself. If a guy is holding his shield up are you really going to say that the game has to tell you that hitting it while the shield is up won't work? Instead of running into a fight and hitting R1 a bunch you should hold your own shield up (or be ready to dodge if you like playing shieldless) and observe the enemy before you start fighting.

Gee, wait for him to swing his sword and then attack him? That was attempt number 1.

then his attack bounces off your shield and you can hit him then.

it's not that hard

And then he hits back for more damage before I can backup. But I'm sure I'm just using the wrong sword attack, right?

#150 Edited by Animasta (14677 posts) -

@Levio said:

@Animasta said:

@Levio said:

@Hungry said:

@Levio said:

@pyrodactyl: You're posting to tell me how to counter enemies, when my point is that the game doesn't explain how to counter these enemies. Do you seriously not see the irony of that?

lol

That is because the game wants you to figure it out yourself. If a guy is holding his shield up are you really going to say that the game has to tell you that hitting it while the shield is up won't work? Instead of running into a fight and hitting R1 a bunch you should hold your own shield up (or be ready to dodge if you like playing shieldless) and observe the enemy before you start fighting.

Gee, wait for him to swing his sword and then attack him? That was attempt number 1.

then his attack bounces off your shield and you can hit him then.

it's not that hard

And then he hits back for more damage before I can backup. But I'm sure I'm just using the wrong sword attack, right?

uh, he shouldn't attack quick enough for that to be an issue? what the hell kinda weapon are you using

also instead of backing up just hold up your shield after attacking

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