Dark Souls Survey

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#51 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

Just the fact that, in order to get used to the mechanics and memorize the animations through trial and error, I had to repeat the goddamned same bit where I spawn at the same bonfire and fight the same enemies (who always spawned with me) maybe 40 times in total (after which I uninstalled the game), is enough reason for me to say in confidence that this is shitty game design.

Remember Mega Man 2? And Punch Out? And every shoot-em-up? Wrap the fundamental gameplay elements of those games in RPG trimmings and you have Dark Souls. It's a simple, straightforward game which sometimes people bring false expectations to and end up feeling frustrated because they won't adapt to the game rather than expecting it to cater to them. If you tried to play the old Mega Man games like they were Mario games you'd end up in the same situation - banging your head against the same level over and over again, unable to fathom why you were being destroyed with extreme prejudice on every new screen.

While in fact, contrary to what you said, I did go into Dark Souls without any expectations and was eager to learn from my mistakes, otherwise I wouldn't have tried to correct them tens of times around the same bloody bonfire, I never played those punishing games you mentioned so I guess I'm a newbie when it comes to games that buttfuck you. I'm used to games where you develop skills and situational awareness as you go along, not literally freeze in the same square and keep trying to fight your way out of it!

I can see how that can be fun for some people (no actually I really can't!) but I've accepted that it's not for me.

#52 Edited by jozzy (2041 posts) -

@Humanity: Wow, I didn't mean anything I said in an elitist or condescending fashion, sorry if it came across as that. On the other hand I feel your response is a little ironic with the condescending overtones.

I guess I really have a different opinion on what trial and error constitutes. He was giving the example of retrying an area 40 times to learn all enemy placement and animations. If you are in the "wrong" area and notice you hit a common enemy and only take a fraction of his health that is a clue you are probably in the wrong place and need to go somewhere else.

Also there is really no need to learn where all the enemies are, if you adjust to the game you will explore a new area with caution with your shield up. If you meet a new enemy you test him out to see what he does. I really honestly believe in a hopefully non-elitist way that if you play this way than in many cases you can get through an area in one try. Bosses can take a little longer because they are more punishing.

Your Bed of Chaos example I actually agree on though, that is why I said "next to none". I feel another example is those archers at Anor Londo, although that one is debatable. I did kill the Bed of Chaos in one try the first time, and thought back them that it was the easiest boss ever. Then on a second character I died at least 10 times to him...

#53 Posted by WarlordPayne (692 posts) -

In Dark Souls if you throw yourself at the same obstacle 40 times and still can't manage to beat or avoid it then you're hopeless and that's not the game's fault.

#54 Posted by NegativeCero (2925 posts) -

Finished. Good luck on your assignment!

#55 Posted by jozzy (2041 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

@rebgav said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

Just the fact that, in order to get used to the mechanics and memorize the animations through trial and error, I had to repeat the goddamned same bit where I spawn at the same bonfire and fight the same enemies (who always spawned with me) maybe 40 times in total (after which I uninstalled the game), is enough reason for me to say in confidence that this is shitty game design.

Remember Mega Man 2? And Punch Out? And every shoot-em-up? Wrap the fundamental gameplay elements of those games in RPG trimmings and you have Dark Souls. It's a simple, straightforward game which sometimes people bring false expectations to and end up feeling frustrated because they won't adapt to the game rather than expecting it to cater to them. If you tried to play the old Mega Man games like they were Mario games you'd end up in the same situation - banging your head against the same level over and over again, unable to fathom why you were being destroyed with extreme prejudice on every new screen.

While in fact, contrary to what you said, I did go into Dark Souls without any expectations and was eager to learn from my mistakes, otherwise I wouldn't have tried to correct them tens of times around the same bloody bonfire, I never played those punishing games you mentioned so I guess I'm a newbie when it comes to games that buttfuck you. I'm used to games where you develop skills and situational awareness as you go along, not literally freeze in the same square and keep trying to fight your way out of it!

I can see how that can be fun for some people (no actually I really can't!) but I've accepted that it's not for me.

Out of curiosity, which bonfire was the one that gave you so much trouble? And where were you going?

#56 Posted by VierasTalo (572 posts) -

Sorry for leaving out if I had watched any of those TV-shows, I just didn't actually watch any of them. Ever.

#57 Posted by mandude (2667 posts) -

I did your survey. I was told there'd be a hot meal?

#58 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -

@jozzy: This one:

Right outside of it:

These 3 skeletons rise from the dead and fight you, then when you run over the bridge to the left 3 more pop out while 4 skeletons on a roof to the left are throwing fire bombs, you finish off those 3 and fight 3 separate skeletons inside, then go up the stairs and two skeletons with axes attack you WHILE A THIRD IS STANDING BACK THROWING FIRE GRENADES, then you go up the tower and kill the archer, go down and are met by 3 skeletons with long ass spears.
Then you either go down and face this motherfucker:

Or you go up and fight two skeletons AFTER they roll an explosive barrel down the stairs on your head. Then you fight the big yellow-ish demon boss while two skeletons shoot you in the back (which ofcourse you climb to and kill).

Everything I just listed done with only 10 Estus Flasks is undoable, and if you manage to survive it the boss will finish you off. At least that was my experience for nothing less of 30 tries.

#59 Posted by jozzy (2041 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

@jozzy: This one:

Right outside of it:

These 3 skeletons rise from the dead and fight you, then when you run over the bridge to the left 3 more pop out while 4 skeletons on a roof to the left are throwing fire bombs, you finish off those 3 and fight 3 separate skeletons inside, then go up the stairs and two skeletons with axes attack you WHILE A THIRD IS STANDING BACK THROWING FIRE GRENADES, then you go up the tower and kill the archer, go down and are met by 3 skeletons with long ass spears.
Then you either go down and face this motherfucker:

Or you go up and fight two skeletons AFTER they roll an explosive barrel down the stairs on your head. Then you fight the big yellow-ish demon boss while two skeletons shoot you in the back (which ofcourse you climb to and kill).

Everything I just listed done with only 10 Estus Flasks is undoable, and if you manage to survive it the boss will finish you off. At least that was my experience for nothing less of 30 tries.

Aah that one, thanks for clarifying.

#60 Edited by Lysergica33 (480 posts) -

^ Those are some of the easiest enemies. (Well... Aside from the Black Knight, but it's probably best to go back and kill him later.) They react slowly, have a certain set of moves with over-exagerated tells. Keep your shield up at all times and only attack when there's an opening rather than playing brashly and you'll do a much better job of surviving.

But yeah, I guess it's not for you, and that's fine. \o/

#61 Posted by Nate (680 posts) -

Done did it, coolkskee. Yep, that's right.

#62 Posted by WarlordPayne (692 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic: Two things:

1. They play through that section in the Quick Look and I don't recall Rorie having a particularly tough time with it so obviously it's doable if you're careful.

2. You shouldn't be running out of estus flasks because you shouldn't be getting hit. If you're just sucking down potions hoping you'll have enough to last you through the area then you're playing the game wrong and you need to approach those scenarios in a different way. The potions are there for boss fights and for when you make a mistake that doesn't kill you. You're not suppose to just stumble through an area getting hit and using the flasks to fill yourself back up.

#63 Posted by mscupcakes (610 posts) -

I just filled it out too. Enjoy.

#64 Posted by AbsolutHysteria (41 posts) -

Such a cool idea for a project. I hope you succeed.

#65 Posted by Metric_Outlaw (1169 posts) -

Hey I'm actually working on surveys with school now too. What class is this for?

#66 Posted by Soapy86 (2597 posts) -

Done!

TV options sucked though.

#67 Posted by Deusx (1879 posts) -

@Humanity said:

@jozzy said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

@jozzy said:

@Humanity said:

@Deusx said:

Sure, I'll fill your survey. Just because DaS is my favorite game ever.

@AhmadMetallic said:

Done. I called the game tedious and dependent on repetitiveness!

Your opinion sucks. The game can be tedious and repetitive but that's your fault. Not the game's.

Farming for souls is always tedious and repetitive no matter how you put it. You need to up your stats to use that sword you just made with a demons soul? Well guess what, you're going to be killing shit then running back to the bonfire and kill shit again. Thats the least of Dark Souls' problems though and I say that as a person that more or less enjoyed it although not as much as the first.

I have played the game for 200+ hours on the 360 and the PC and finished it with 3 characters and I never ever felt the need to grind souls. It is absolutely not something you are required to do, although some people play it that way.

Just the fact that, in order to get used to the mechanics and memorize the animations through trial and error, I had to repeat the goddamned same bit where I spawn at the same bonfire and fight the same enemies (who always spawned with me) maybe 40 times in total (after which I uninstalled the game), is enough reason for me to say in confidence that this is shitty game design.

Yeah, this game was really not for you. This game really has next to no trial and error in it at all, and if you are repeating sections 40+ times you are just not willing to learn and adjust to the game.

I wasn't even going to comment anymore because I saw our opinions differed too much but now I can tell you are completely out of it. If you honestly believe that Dark Souls has no trial and error then you are either trolling, delusional or simply don't understand what "trial and error" means. The whole game is for better and worse built on repetition and trial and error. The simple fact that almost nothing is explained is trial and error. No one tells you that you shouldn't go to Tomb of the Giants at the outset of the game - you go there and die repeatedly and eventually go somewhere else. Thats trial and error. Bed of Chaos is a purely trial and error boss.

I suppose your initial "200 hours" remark should have been enough to steer me clear of any sensible discussion, but your delusions of grandeur about how this game is actually played are quite unsettling and depressing. I was a huge Demons Souls fan, told all my friends about it even though I knew it was not a game for them - I just enjoyed telling my stories. I'm starting to actively dislike the Dark Souls community which seems to spawn the most condescending and elitist gamers I've yet to witness on the internet.

I'm not the "200 hours" guy but hey man, if you want your games to tell you everything up front that's fine by me. Dark Souls is about YOU figuring out the stuff in that game. Whether it is by trail and error or just being patient and skilled. Just like you did in games like Zelda for the NES and many other classic RPG's. It asks a lot of the player. I guess the game is just not for you. This is not a movie you play at your leisure. The devs are teaching you how to have fun in this one. They are trying to teach you something new. If you don't like that then I guess you're not open minded enough to let the experience take you. You should play Heavy Rain man. It teaches nothing new.

#68 Posted by Deusx (1879 posts) -

I'm going to post this again because it clarifies EVERYTHING I want to say about that game. If you don't appreciate Dark Souls is because you simply don't understand it.

#69 Posted by Tarsier (1052 posts) -

im on the xbox right now, ive been sitting outside the 4 kings boss entrance for the last hour waiting for a hollow to put his sign down so i can stand even a chance against this enemy. if someone could help me out right here it would be sweet. thats all i have to say about the game. lol

#70 Posted by Tarsier (1052 posts) -

i died.

#71 Posted by Alkaiser (358 posts) -

Man, I don't even know what Dark Souls is anymore. I thought it was a challenging video game, but apparently from what I've seen the past week or so it's a trial of your right to be an intelligent human being and if you don't enjoy it you're somehow defective.

#72 Posted by Tarsier (1052 posts) -

thanks for the advice. i heard that, but they like to grab me and drain most of my health and then i get hit from behind and it finishes me off. i probably just have to get lucky.

and to the alkaiser guy: ya it is pretty disgusting how a lot of the dark souls intrnet community reacts when you point out a flaw of the game design. like, you talk about something thats clearly a product of lazy development, and they come at you with WELL WHY DONT YOU GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY THEN YOU NOOB. dark souls is a great game and a refreshing challenge in a lot of places but sometimes it just gets retarded. theres a difference between purposefully challenging and just poorly thought out. but that difference isnt recognized by some people. bless their hearts.

#73 Posted by jozzy (2041 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@Tarsier said:

im on the xbox right now, ive been sitting outside the 4 kings boss entrance for the last hour waiting for a hollow to put his sign down so i can stand even a chance against this enemy. if someone could help me out right here it would be sweet. thats all i have to say about the game. lol

Two-hand your weapon, charge, don't stop swinging until everything is dead. Seriously, get right up on them and they can't really do that much damage to you.

@Tarsier said:

i died.

Ah.

Try again.

Also, wear the heaviest armor you have, even if your stats don't match. You don't need to be nimble for this one.

#74 Posted by Alkaiser (358 posts) -

@Tarsier said:

thanks for the advice. i heard that, but they like to grab me and drain most of my health and then i get hit from behind and it finishes me off. i probably just have to get lucky.

and to the alkaiser guy: ya it is pretty disgusting how a lot of the dark souls intrnet community reacts when you point out a flaw of the game design. like, you talk about something thats clearly a product of lazy development, and they come at you with WELL WHY DONT YOU GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY THEN YOU NOOB. dark souls is a great game and a refreshing challenge in a lot of places but sometimes it just gets retarded. theres a difference between purposefully challenging and just poorly thought out. but that difference isnt recognized by some people. bless their hearts.

I'm just going to chalk it up to the internet being crazy in general. Because good lord, I hope people don't really think disliking Dark Souls makes you a 'scumbag piece of shit' like the last hilariously crazy thread about this stuff.

#75 Posted by Aquablak (174 posts) -

Just completed it. Good luck!

#76 Edited by Fire_Of_The_Wind (166 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic: Ryan, playing the game for the first time, played from the beginning and he beat the boss at the top of this area in 2 hours. The key to this game is to avoid damage and keep fights 1 to 1 as much as possible, if you're using all your Estus flasks before getting to a boss you're doing something wrong.

If you you want to give the game a second chance here are some tips that might help.

Right outside of it:

These 3 skeletons rise from the dead and fight you, then when you run over the bridge to the left 3 more pop out while 4 skeletons on a roof to the left are throwing fire bombs, you finish off those 3 and fight 3 separate skeletons inside, then go up the stairs and two skeletons with axes attack you WHILE A THIRD IS STANDING BACK THROWING FIRE GRENADES, then you go up the tower and kill the archer, go down and are met by 3 skeletons with long ass spears.

Every enemy in this area will bounce off your shield and can be easily stunned by your attacks, just block and then counter after they attack. Kill the tree guys outside the bonfire, take two steps on the bridge and you should aggro the soldier with the shield so just back off and wait for him to come to you. After that the two guys inside should be easy just block both of them then counter.
For the two axe guys with the firebomb guy you can aggro them and move back or keep your shield up and try to circle around and take the firebomb guy first. After killing the crossbow guy, lure the sword and shield guys one by one.
Then you either go down and face this motherfucker:

Or you go up and fight two skeletons AFTER they roll an explosive barrel down the stairs on your head. Then you fight the big yellow-ish demon boss while two skeletons shoot you in the back (which ofcourse you climb to and kill).

You can defeat the black knight at your current level but you can't make mistakes against him and it would be very helpful if you know how to chain backstab, basically you try to backstab or parry him and then as he's standing up you circle behind him and backstab him again, repeat till he's dead or leave him for later, he's a type of enemy that does not respawn.

As for the boss I recommend you use the pine resin you can find in a chest in this area, use it before making the boss jump down because it goes through an animation of applying it, the boss should go down in a few hits. Don't forget to kill the archers first.

Everything I just listed done with only 10 Estus Flasks is undoable, and if you manage to survive it the boss will finish you off. At least that was my experience for nothing less of 30 tries.

If you want an easy to use weapon you could buy a spear from the merchant or get one from the skeleton area, you;ll have to do a suicide run for it, spears and thrusting swords allow you to block and attack at the same time.

Just to note I finished the game a total of 1time(s) and have about 60 hours across 2 characters, in that whole time I was only REALLY frustrated in one area the fucking knight archers in Anor Londo.

#77 Posted by jozzy (2041 posts) -

@Alkaiser said:

@Tarsier said:

thanks for the advice. i heard that, but they like to grab me and drain most of my health and then i get hit from behind and it finishes me off. i probably just have to get lucky.

and to the alkaiser guy: ya it is pretty disgusting how a lot of the dark souls intrnet community reacts when you point out a flaw of the game design. like, you talk about something thats clearly a product of lazy development, and they come at you with WELL WHY DONT YOU GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY THEN YOU NOOB. dark souls is a great game and a refreshing challenge in a lot of places but sometimes it just gets retarded. theres a difference between purposefully challenging and just poorly thought out. but that difference isnt recognized by some people. bless their hearts.

I'm just going to chalk it up to the internet being crazy in general. Because good lord, I hope people don't really think disliking Dark Souls makes you a 'scumbag piece of shit' like the last hilariously crazy thread about this stuff.

Against better judgement, I need to respond to this :)

There might be lazy development things in this game, but I honestly believe that many things that initially seem like lazy design or frustrating oversights are actually very deliberate. Not everyone might like them, but everything points to this game being very deliberately designed with a clear idea of what they wanted to achieve. But yeah, this is probably my favorite game of all time so I am not entirely objective. For me, and quite a few others, this game comes very close to the "perfect" game.

#78 Posted by Tarsier (1052 posts) -

@jozzy said:

@Alkaiser said:

@Tarsier said:

thanks for the advice. i heard that, but they like to grab me and drain most of my health and then i get hit from behind and it finishes me off. i probably just have to get lucky.

and to the alkaiser guy: ya it is pretty disgusting how a lot of the dark souls intrnet community reacts when you point out a flaw of the game design. like, you talk about something thats clearly a product of lazy development, and they come at you with WELL WHY DONT YOU GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY THEN YOU NOOB. dark souls is a great game and a refreshing challenge in a lot of places but sometimes it just gets retarded. theres a difference between purposefully challenging and just poorly thought out. but that difference isnt recognized by some people. bless their hearts.

I'm just going to chalk it up to the internet being crazy in general. Because good lord, I hope people don't really think disliking Dark Souls makes you a 'scumbag piece of shit' like the last hilariously crazy thread about this stuff.

Against better judgement, I need to respond to this :)

There might be lazy development things in this game, but I honestly believe that many things that initially seem like lazy design or frustrating oversights are actually very deliberate. Not everyone might like them, but everything points to this game being very deliberately designed with a clear idea of what they wanted to achieve. But yeah, this is probably my favorite game of all time so I am not entirely objective. For me, and quite a few others, this game comes very close to the "perfect" game.

i didnt give specific examples in the post so you can kind of assume whatever you want based on your opinion of the game and etc. . they could very well have made deliberate decisions to make almost all of blight town run at about 5 fps, and fill it full of enemies you can only hit 25% of the time with your sword because theyre too small and you have to get lucky to hit them at the right angle, and youre constantly getting knocked off because of the jankyness of the whole situation.. that could very well have all been deliberate and put in for extra 'challenge'. but i will tell you, thats fucking stupid. and they made the wrong choice, and they fucked up. its bad game design. :P but yea, if you like to think its the perfect game and that that scenario is A-OKAY and that the reason it was a shitty situation for me was because of my failure as a player, go right ahead. .

#79 Posted by Humanity (7945 posts) -

@Deusx: Your ridiculous Heavy Rain comparison aside, my point throughout the entire post pertained to something completely different than games holding your hand. I appreciate Demons Souls for what it is but I was arguing against the idea that it requires no trial and error. Because of how overpowering some of the bosses can be, you need a certain amount of trial and error to figure out what will happen when Boss X does moveset Y. What differentiates it from other games is that there isn't as much leeway to learn on the fly and adapt. Very often in Dark Souls one mistake can cost you your life and I won't even get into the subject matter of animation priority and janky targetting that can cause you to die a lot.

I agree it's not a game for everyone.

#80 Posted by TruthTellah (7633 posts) -

Filled out the survey for you. Hope it helps out. Us Praisers of the Sun gotta stick together. :)

#81 Posted by ripelivejam (2783 posts) -

people sure are defensive of this game. it's got problems, arguably big ones. doesn't mean you can't find enjoyment with it, but you also find much unwarranted frustration, and that's a fact.

#82 Posted by jozzy (2041 posts) -

@Tarsier said:

@jozzy said:

@Alkaiser said:

@Tarsier said:

thanks for the advice. i heard that, but they like to grab me and drain most of my health and then i get hit from behind and it finishes me off. i probably just have to get lucky.

and to the alkaiser guy: ya it is pretty disgusting how a lot of the dark souls intrnet community reacts when you point out a flaw of the game design. like, you talk about something thats clearly a product of lazy development, and they come at you with WELL WHY DONT YOU GO PLAY CALL OF DUTY THEN YOU NOOB. dark souls is a great game and a refreshing challenge in a lot of places but sometimes it just gets retarded. theres a difference between purposefully challenging and just poorly thought out. but that difference isnt recognized by some people. bless their hearts.

I'm just going to chalk it up to the internet being crazy in general. Because good lord, I hope people don't really think disliking Dark Souls makes you a 'scumbag piece of shit' like the last hilariously crazy thread about this stuff.

Against better judgement, I need to respond to this :)

There might be lazy development things in this game, but I honestly believe that many things that initially seem like lazy design or frustrating oversights are actually very deliberate. Not everyone might like them, but everything points to this game being very deliberately designed with a clear idea of what they wanted to achieve. But yeah, this is probably my favorite game of all time so I am not entirely objective. For me, and quite a few others, this game comes very close to the "perfect" game.

i didnt give specific examples in the post so you can kind of assume whatever you want based on your opinion of the game and etc. . they could very well have made deliberate decisions to make almost all of blight town run at about 5 fps, and fill it full of enemies you can only hit 25% of the time with your sword because theyre too small and you have to get lucky to hit them at the right angle, and youre constantly getting knocked off because of the jankyness of the whole situation.. that could very well have all been deliberate and put in for extra 'challenge'. but i will tell you, thats fucking stupid. and they made the wrong choice, and they fucked up. its bad game design. :P but yea, if you like to think its the perfect game and that that scenario is A-OKAY and that the reason it was a shitty situation for me was because of my failure as a player, go right ahead. .

Aside from the 5fps I do think there is nothing wrong with Blighttown yeah... And that is fixed now with the PC version.

#83 Posted by Karkarov (2620 posts) -

I am curious as to what point is being served by asking about what tv shows a person who plays Dark Souls watches. Are you trying to prove desperate housewives really is god awful trash by showing people who like dark souls (thus have taste) don't like it?

#84 Posted by Namekaze_Minato (22 posts) -

Just did the survey, hope it helps.

#85 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -

@Humanity said:

@Deusx: Your ridiculous Heavy Rain comparison aside, my point throughout the entire post pertained to something completely different than games holding your hand. I appreciate Demons Souls for what it is but I was arguing against the idea that it requires no trial and error. Because of how overpowering some of the bosses can be, you need a certain amount of trial and error to figure out what will happen when Boss X does moveset Y. What differentiates it from other games is that there isn't as much leeway to learn on the fly and adapt. Very often in Dark Souls one mistake can cost you your life and I won't even get into the subject matter of animation priority and janky targetting that can cause you to die a lot.

Bam

#86 Posted by Turambar (6484 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

@Humanity said:

@Deusx: Your ridiculous Heavy Rain comparison aside, my point throughout the entire post pertained to something completely different than games holding your hand. I appreciate Demons Souls for what it is but I was arguing against the idea that it requires no trial and error. Because of how overpowering some of the bosses can be, you need a certain amount of trial and error to figure out what will happen when Boss X does moveset Y. What differentiates it from other games is that there isn't as much leeway to learn on the fly and adapt. Very often in Dark Souls one mistake can cost you your life and I won't even get into the subject matter of animation priority and janky targetting that can cause you to die a lot.

Bam

What further differentiates Dark Souls from other games is that death is not a fail state.

#87 Posted by Humanity (7945 posts) -

@Turambar said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

@Humanity said:

@Deusx: Your ridiculous Heavy Rain comparison aside, my point throughout the entire post pertained to something completely different than games holding your hand. I appreciate Demons Souls for what it is but I was arguing against the idea that it requires no trial and error. Because of how overpowering some of the bosses can be, you need a certain amount of trial and error to figure out what will happen when Boss X does moveset Y. What differentiates it from other games is that there isn't as much leeway to learn on the fly and adapt. Very often in Dark Souls one mistake can cost you your life and I won't even get into the subject matter of animation priority and janky targetting that can cause you to die a lot.

Bam

What further differentiates Dark Souls from other games is that death is not a fail state.

You could argue that in a way dying is worse in Dark Souls. Very few modern games have death be a "fail state" either. You just respawn at the last checkpoint, very often right before a boss with all enemies cleared. In stark contrast in Dark Souls when you die you respawn at a bonfire that is usually not right before a boss and are forced to traverse a certain amount of ground, will all enemies respawned, in order to get to the boss fight. Death in Dark Souls is worse because everything resets.

#88 Edited by Turambar (6484 posts) -

@Humanity said:

@Turambar said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

@Humanity said:

@Deusx: Your ridiculous Heavy Rain comparison aside, my point throughout the entire post pertained to something completely different than games holding your hand. I appreciate Demons Souls for what it is but I was arguing against the idea that it requires no trial and error. Because of how overpowering some of the bosses can be, you need a certain amount of trial and error to figure out what will happen when Boss X does moveset Y. What differentiates it from other games is that there isn't as much leeway to learn on the fly and adapt. Very often in Dark Souls one mistake can cost you your life and I won't even get into the subject matter of animation priority and janky targetting that can cause you to die a lot.

Bam

What further differentiates Dark Souls from other games is that death is not a fail state.

You could argue that in a way dying is worse in Dark Souls. Very few modern games have death be a "fail state" either. You just respawn at the last checkpoint, very often right before a boss with all enemies cleared. In stark contrast in Dark Souls when you die you respawn at a bonfire that is usually not right before a boss and are forced to traverse a certain amount of ground, will all enemies respawned, in order to get to the boss fight. Death in Dark Souls is worse because everything resets.

You actually just fully disproved your own point. Death is not a fail state in modern games because death is made to have zero consequence. That sums up the philosophy behind how to treat death in most modern games. It also implicitly concedes that death with consequence results in the tacit admission of failure on the part of the player. Games and the progression within them are thus built around the player not dying.

Dark Souls on the other hand makes death a central part of its progression. Your inevitable death is a ticket to coop and pvp, which in turn rewards you and reverses your death. Your death retains the actual progress that you make: the equipment you find, the upgrades you acquire, the short cuts you unlock. Demon's Souls attempt something similar as well, thus explaining the entire concept behind world tendencies, where death became a way to the available content of the dungeons. The fact that you are given an item in both games that essentially allows you to commit suicide emphasizes just how lightly the developers take death, and how lightly they ask you to take death.

Now, the real question is, are you capable of changing your mindset on death as you transition between Dark Souls and traditional modern games? If you're not, and thus hate dying in Dark Souls, that's fine. But that onus is on you, not the game.

#89 Posted by GnomeonFire (643 posts) -

I said that Dark Souls makes dying an addicting part of the game. Without it, the game wouldn't be worth coming back to.

#90 Posted by Deusx (1879 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

@Humanity said:

@Deusx: Your ridiculous Heavy Rain comparison aside, my point throughout the entire post pertained to something completely different than games holding your hand. I appreciate Demons Souls for what it is but I was arguing against the idea that it requires no trial and error. Because of how overpowering some of the bosses can be, you need a certain amount of trial and error to figure out what will happen when Boss X does moveset Y. What differentiates it from other games is that there isn't as much leeway to learn on the fly and adapt. Very often in Dark Souls one mistake can cost you your life and I won't even get into the subject matter of animation priority and janky targetting that can cause you to die a lot.

Bam

Ok, don't get mad about that comic. My point is, the fact that you respond with that means you didn't get my post. I don't want to sound like an asshole (I already did I know and I apologize) but I think you clearly aren't willing to put what it takes to beat the challenge and punishment Dark Souls puts you through, as I said, in simpler games you learn NOTHING from death and you just breeze through the content, you really want that? Death is a KEY feature in Dark Souls. You learn from it, you relish it, you face it, and you beat it. It even connects to the deep lore behind the game. There is a reason the first NPC you find is a Crestfallen, he gave up. He felt the same as you do. He then watches as you ring the first two bells and tries to be a hero. He fails, then you find him in New Londo, hollowed, because he went mad, he failed, he didn't learn. That is why you kill him, because you are better than him.

Don't come to me saying the game is flawed (Artificial Difficulty yada yada) just because you can't beat it on your first two or three tries. Most bosses I only had to study once or twice to know what it had to be done to beat them. The capra demon? That motherfucker fell the first time I faced him. The only boss I can give to you that is fucking unfair is bed of chaos. Other than that, they aren't that difficult. Neither are the mobs in that game. The game is not hard, the game is not made for you to feel frustrated, the game is made for you to get GOOD at the game by practicing. Sometimes you do have to repeat certain sections I know but you try, and you try, and you try and when you beat it, you'll feel it, you'll realize how satisfying and how easy the game actually is! The nature of the game requires that sense of failure to validate the sense of achievement. That struggle is what makes that game actually interesting.

I'm being an asshole here, I know, but man, seriously analyze the game. The animation priority is something that From Soft used to make you feel the weapons as they really are. They have different weights and sizes that cripple you if you aren't strong enough or fast enough. Zweihanders aren't light man, those things are fucking heavy and the game shows it. Every weapon has a different moveset, if you don't feel comfortable with a certain weapon and how "slow" or "fast" it is, then you change your fucking weapon. In real life you don't grab a fucking sword and swing it like Dante. The targeting is janky? You have auto targeting man and if you can't target the thing then it means you shouldn't be able to hit it easily. In real life you don't grab a fucking bow and shoot it for 100 mts the first time. That's not how weapons work in that game. You have to LEARN how to use them with their different properties, speeds, and movesets.

In this game, you have to put what feels comfortable behind. The devs are showing you something new, something you haven't experienced before. It's not that the game is bad but the fact that you aren't willing to give it a chance and really LEARN how deep it is. If you're having a hard time, there are things that can make your experience more bearable, you can summon sun bros, use homeward bones, use your rings of sacrifice, there are ways for you not to feel frustrated, you just have to find them.

I remember one time I was in Anor Londo, I had to repeat a section like 5 times before I managed to beat it. On top of that, I realized my build was fuuucked. So I stopped playing for like 2 weeks and erased my character. I was pissed off at the game. Because I loved it but it was making me feel bad. Then I went back to it, made a new character and beat Anor Londo in 20 minutes. I felt like a fucking bad ass. I fell in love with the game. I realized I wasn't learning anything from death. I wasn't paying attention to what the devs were telling me. Then I payed attention and breezed through that game for the first time. It was incredibly rewarding. I still play PvP at the Kiln with that character.

As I said before, this video says everything I want to say about that game and the points discussed here. Watch it if you have the time.

#91 Posted by Tarsier (1052 posts) -

i think there are people here arguing about different things. that comic doesnt represent any problem i have with the game. like i said, there is a difference between good reasonable challenge and shit game design, and mistakes and over sights that lead to fucked up gameplay are part of that . . im glad you guys have found what you perceive as 'the perfect game' .. but dont act like anyone who has a problem with it is just a noob or doesnt know how to play or is complaining about getting killed by a spike trap. also, as far as that comic goes, thats not a very good thing to show the trial and error gameplay. there is that kind of shit in the game, take for example the first time you come across one of those monster chests. for me there was no warning, and i had no clue as to what would happen when i opened it (immediately get eaten). i found it a hilarious 'fuck you' and i didnt take issue with it, but its an issue . lol

i hope in the next game they take more time to make things completely fair, because fairness is an important part of a challenging game.

#92 Posted by JackOhara (227 posts) -

@Humanity said:

@Deusx said:

Sure, I'll fill your survey. Just because DaS is my favorite game ever.

@AhmadMetallic said:

Done. I called the game tedious and dependent on repetitiveness!

Your opinion sucks. The game can be tedious and repetitive but that's your fault. Not the game's.

Farming for souls is always tedious and repetitive no matter how you put it. You need to up your stats to use that sword you just made with a demons soul? Well guess what, you're going to be killing shit then running back to the bonfire and kill shit again. Thats the least of Dark Souls' problems though and I say that as a person that more or less enjoyed it although not as much as the first.

I can't say I've ever had to farm souls a single time in the 400+ hours I've played Dark Souls, you must be doing something wrong.

#93 Posted by JackOhara (227 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

@jozzy: This one:

Right outside of it:

These 3 skeletons rise from the dead and fight you, then when you run over the bridge to the left 3 more pop out while 4 skeletons on a roof to the left are throwing fire bombs, you finish off those 3 and fight 3 separate skeletons inside, then go up the stairs and two skeletons with axes attack you WHILE A THIRD IS STANDING BACK THROWING FIRE GRENADES, then you go up the tower and kill the archer, go down and are met by 3 skeletons with long ass spears.
Then you either go down and face this motherfucker:

Or you go up and fight two skeletons AFTER they roll an explosive barrel down the stairs on your head. Then you fight the big yellow-ish demon boss while two skeletons shoot you in the back (which ofcourse you climb to and kill).

Everything I just listed done with only 10 Estus Flasks is undoable, and if you manage to survive it the boss will finish you off. At least that was my experience for nothing less of 30 tries.

Damn.... you really weren't able to get past that bonfire? Not to be a dick or anything, but fuck man, that's one of the easiest sections in the game.

#94 Posted by Fire_Of_The_Wind (166 posts) -

@Tarsier: Going through the game the first time I noticed that all the chests looked identical, the first time I came across a Mimic I noticed that something looked off. All the chests had a chain on the side that was laid in a semi-circle, this chest the chain was dangling downwards, I hit it and then the chest started moving and I realised that it was a monster. I believe that the first time you come across a Mimic is in Sen's Fortress, I remember before going there talking to one of the npcs at Firelink shrine that said "Oh you're going to Sen's Fortress, it's a place full of deadly traps" that made me more focused on anything that was out of place, maybe that's why I was able to notice it.

The developers did put hints around the world it is up to the player to notice them. Bed of chaos though was bullshit and the developers did admit that.

#95 Posted by Kain55 (103 posts) -

Filled it out. Good luck, duder.

#96 Posted by WarlordPayne (692 posts) -

@Tarsier: I didn't have an issue with that mimic because there was a message on the ground warning me of it, which is something that seems to get ignored in all of these discussions. Whether you like it or not a fair amount of the information that players get from the game is supposed to come from other players. Many of the secrets and traps can be quite hard to pick out on your own, so the people before you are supposed to pass on that knowledge to the new people who are coming up.

You can argue that that is a bad way to make a game and that's a valid argument, though one I disagree with, but it's not something that can be outright ignored.

And the reason that so many people jump to Dark Souls defense so strongly is because an awful lot of criticism leveled at it is untrue, which results in misrepresentation of the game to people who may actually enjoy it but stay away because of all the false claims. Grinding is not required at any point and you should never have to hurl yourself at an obstacle 30-40 times in order to get past it but both of those things are frequently stated and would, deservedly, put someone off from playing the game.

What's so irritating is that there are plenty of completely valid criticisms: Frame rate, those god damned ghosts, the bed of chaos boss, the lack of any real reason to play the game in a living state, getting matched in pvp with people 200 levels above you, the lock on system, the camera getting stuck on geometry and spinning your view so you walk off ledges but no it's always grinding and mandatory repetition.

People also need to realize that just because they don't like something it doesn't mean that it's bad. You don't like games that have severe death penalties, require your full and constant attention, or have elaborate animations that you can't get out of, okay, that's cool. But that doesn't mean that the game is bad and needs to change, it just means it's not for you. I don't like 3D fighters, I hate the way that the combos are pre-set strings of random button presses that you need to memorize. So you know what? I don't fucking play 3D fighters, I don't go into every thread about a 3D fighter and shit all over it claiming that it's terrible and needs to be changed to suit my whims.

: That wasn't all aimed at you, I got off on a bit of a tangent there.

#97 Posted by Tarsier (1052 posts) -

i mostly agreed with the things you said. maybe i should clarify that i dont hate the game at all, i like it a lot. id probably give it a light 8 at this point.

#98 Posted by Humanity (7945 posts) -

@Deusx said:

Don't come to me saying the game is flawed (Artificial Difficulty yada yada) just because you can't beat it on your first two or three tries.

The game is not hard, the game is not made for you to feel frustrated, the game is made for you to get GOOD at the game by practicing. Sometimes you do have to repeat certain sections I know but you try, and you try, and you try and when you beat it, you'll feel it, you'll realize how satisfying and how easy the game actually is! The nature of the game requires that sense of failure to validate the sense of achievement. That struggle is what makes that game actually interesting.

In this game, you have to put what feels comfortable behind.

..I had to repeat a section like 5 times before I managed to beat it. On top of that, I realized my build was fuuucked. So I stopped playing for like 2 weeks and erased my character. I was pissed off at the game. Because I loved it but it was making me feel bad.

I just highlighted some of the key points.

Firstly I'd just like to mention that I beat Demons Souls twice and Dark Souls once - you keep mentioning how I'm not willing to put in the effort and making a lot of assumptions about me so I just want to clear up that I did in fact beat the game.

Second: once again I point out that I was simply talking about trial and error being a large part of the game. I've highlighted the parts in your reply where you yourself make the point that theres a lot of repetition in this game. You had to redo a lot of areas in this game, as you yourself mention, and through the process of trial and error you managed to finally get through. You learned where the enemies were going to jump out of, where the archers were etc etc.

@Turambar: I fail to see how anything I wrote disproves my theory. I said that dying in Dark Souls puts you in a carte-blanche state of square one whereas other games save your progress even in death - thus arguing that Dark Souls has a stricter death penalty.

" It also implicitly concedes that death with consequence results in the tacit admission of failure on the part of the player "

While acting as some wonderfully composed fluff this statement is neither accurate nor even especially coherent. How does dying in Dark Souls not bring on the same admission of failure. Take almost any boss battle for example. Capra Demon, you have to defeat all the ninjas along the way or simply run past them to get to that boss fight. If you die, you simply reappear at the bonfire, with no progress, nothing to show for it, maybe some souls earned along the way. Does that not "implicitly concede" that the player has achieved nothing and thus failed?

Death is almost the antithesis of progress in Dark Souls. While in other games reaching a certain section of a level and dying grants the player actual progress in the form of a checkpoint that was further down the road than when he started initially playing - in Dark Souls one could literally play for two hours, start at a bonfire, make it far into an area, die and lose souls, die once more and lose them permanently and still be back at the original bonfire only with less souls than originally started with and zero progress to show for it. There is the occasional shortcuts and retaining items throughout death is the only thing that works in favor of the whole system.

Demons Souls actually had a good trade off when playing in Soul Form but that was always a choice. Saying death is a gateway to PVP and coop is heavily overstating what is simply a game system. You might as well say that the unique concept of acceleration is a gateway to victory in modern racing games, and you wouldn't be wrong either.

#99 Edited by Deusx (1879 posts) -

@Tarsier said:

i think there are people here arguing about different things. that comic doesnt represent any problem i have with the game. like i said, there is a difference between good reasonable challenge and shit game design, and mistakes and over sights that lead to fucked up gameplay are part of that . . im glad you guys have found what you perceive as 'the perfect game' .. but dont act like anyone who has a problem with it is just a noob or doesnt know how to play or is complaining about getting killed by a spike trap. also, as far as that comic goes, thats not a very good thing to show the trial and error gameplay. there is that kind of shit in the game, take for example the first time you come across one of those monster chests. for me there was no warning, and i had no clue as to what would happen when i opened it (immediately get eaten). i found it a hilarious 'fuck you' and i didnt take issue with it, but its an issue . lol

i hope in the next game they take more time to make things completely fair, because fairness is an important part of a challenging game.

You really didn't read my post right? Sure the comic may have different interpretations but read my post, then watch the video or don't reply at all. Don't waste my time.

@JackOhara said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

@jozzy: This one:

Right outside of it:

These 3 skeletons rise from the dead and fight you, then when you run over the bridge to the left 3 more pop out while 4 skeletons on a roof to the left are throwing fire bombs, you finish off those 3 and fight 3 separate skeletons inside, then go up the stairs and two skeletons with axes attack you WHILE A THIRD IS STANDING BACK THROWING FIRE GRENADES, then you go up the tower and kill the archer, go down and are met by 3 skeletons with long ass spears.
Then you either go down and face this motherfucker:

Or you go up and fight two skeletons AFTER they roll an explosive barrel down the stairs on your head. Then you fight the big yellow-ish demon boss while two skeletons shoot you in the back (which ofcourse you climb to and kill).

Everything I just listed done with only 10 Estus Flasks is undoable, and if you manage to survive it the boss will finish you off. At least that was my experience for nothing less of 30 tries.

Damn.... you really weren't able to get past that bonfire? Not to be a dick or anything, but fuck man, that's one of the easiest sections in the game.

Yeah, that game is clearly not for him. I beat that part in like an hour the first time I got through it. Now that I've learned a lot more about the game, I can go from Undead Asylum to beating the Gargoyles without getting hit once.

@Humanity said:

@Deusx said:

Don't come to me saying the game is flawed (Artificial Difficulty yada yada) just because you can't beat it on your first two or three tries.

The game is not hard, the game is not made for you to feel frustrated, the game is made for you to get GOOD at the game by practicing. Sometimes you do have to repeat certain sections I know but you try, and you try, and you try and when you beat it, you'll feel it, you'll realize how satisfying and how easy the game actually is! The nature of the game requires that sense of failure to validate the sense of achievement. That struggle is what makes that game actually interesting.

In this game, you have to put what feels comfortable behind.

..I had to repeat a section like 5 times before I managed to beat it. On top of that, I realized my build was fuuucked. So I stopped playing for like 2 weeks and erased my character. I was pissed off at the game. Because I loved it but it was making me feel bad.

I just highlighted some of the key points.

Firstly I'd just like to mention that I beat Demons Souls twice and Dark Souls once - you keep mentioning how I'm not willing to put in the effort and making a lot of assumptions about me so I just want to clear up that I did in fact beat the game.

Second: once again I point out that I was simply talking about trial and error being a large part of the game. I've highlighted the parts in your reply where you yourself make the point that theres a lot of repetition in this game. You had to redo a lot of areas in this game, as you yourself mention, and through the process of trial and error you managed to finally get through. You learned where the enemies were going to jump out of, where the archers were etc etc.

@Turambar: I fail to see how anything I wrote disproves my theory. I said that dying in Dark Souls puts you in a carte-blanche state of square one whereas other games save your progress even in death - thus arguing that Dark Souls has a stricter death penalty.

" It also implicitly concedes that death with consequence results in the tacit admission of failure on the part of the player "

While acting as some wonderfully composed fluff this statement is neither accurate nor even especially coherent. How does dying in Dark Souls not bring on the same admission of failure. Take almost any boss battle for example. Capra Demon, you have to defeat all the ninjas along the way or simply run past them to get to that boss fight. If you die, you simply reappear at the bonfire, with no progress, nothing to show for it, maybe some souls earned along the way. Does that not "implicitly concede" that the player has achieved nothing and thus failed?

Death is almost the antithesis of progress in Dark Souls. While in other games reaching a certain section of a level and dying grants the player actual progress in the form of a checkpoint that was further down the road than when he started initially playing - in Dark Souls one could literally play for two hours, start at a bonfire, make it far into an area, die and lose souls, die once more and lose them permanently and still be back at the original bonfire only with less souls than originally started with and zero progress to show for it. There is the occasional shortcuts and retaining items throughout death is the only thing that works in favor of the whole system.

Demons Souls actually had a good trade off when playing in Soul Form but that was always a choice. Saying death is a gateway to PVP and coop is heavily overstating what is simply a game system. You might as well say that the unique concept of acceleration is a gateway to victory in modern racing games, and you wouldn't be wrong either.

I agree, there are some sections where you do repeat content, I did say it. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. That is the game punishing you for not being careful, not paying attention, or reading the item descriptions. As I said, the game asks a lot from the player, but it is not unfair. The only section I would call unfair is the Bed of Chaos, other than that, you can tell where everything is coming from and how to beat it as long as you are careful and take your time with things. Death is a central part of the game, it is there to teach you how to play the game properly. Dark Souls is not something you play at your leisure, the developers are teaching you a lesson on how to do things. You have to detach yourself from what you believe is right or wrong in a video game. That is not bad game design, that is the developer telling you what is fun and what is not in THEIR game. It's their way of showing their work to you whether you like it, or not. I don't want to delve into the whole "video games are art" subject because it is pointless but take for example some work by an artist that may offend you. Does that mean its bad art? No, it isn't. It's just not for you. I can't believe how you say you beat the game while feeling this way. I bet it wasn't that fun. Why play or argue about a game you didn't enjoy THAT much? I'd say what Dark Souls does is the best game design. It is what video games should be. It asks the player to delve into the world and discover its mysteries. Most games just try to appeal certain people and certain sensibilities. Dark Souls doesn't try that because it wants to teach you something new. Also, you didn't watch the video did you? I'd recommend watching it before replying, it says everything I want to say about the subject.

#100 Edited by Tarsier (1052 posts) -

@Deusx said:

@Tarsier said:

i think there are people here arguing about different things. that comic doesnt represent any problem i have with the game. like i said, there is a difference between good reasonable challenge and shit game design, and mistakes and over sights that lead to fucked up gameplay are part of that . . im glad you guys have found what you perceive as 'the perfect game' .. but dont act like anyone who has a problem with it is just a noob or doesnt know how to play or is complaining about getting killed by a spike trap. also, as far as that comic goes, thats not a very good thing to show the trial and error gameplay. there is that kind of shit in the game, take for example the first time you come across one of those monster chests. for me there was no warning, and i had no clue as to what would happen when i opened it (immediately get eaten). i found it a hilarious 'fuck you' and i didnt take issue with it, but its an issue . lol

i hope in the next game they take more time to make things completely fair, because fairness is an important part of a challenging game.

You really didn't read my post right? Sure the comic may have different interpretations but read my post, then watch the video or don't reply at all. Don't waste my time.

@JackOhara said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

@jozzy: This one:

Right outside of it:

These 3 skeletons rise from the dead and fight you, then when you run over the bridge to the left 3 more pop out while 4 skeletons on a roof to the left are throwing fire bombs, you finish off those 3 and fight 3 separate skeletons inside, then go up the stairs and two skeletons with axes attack you WHILE A THIRD IS STANDING BACK THROWING FIRE GRENADES, then you go up the tower and kill the archer, go down and are met by 3 skeletons with long ass spears.
Then you either go down and face this motherfucker:

Or you go up and fight two skeletons AFTER they roll an explosive barrel down the stairs on your head. Then you fight the big yellow-ish demon boss while two skeletons shoot you in the back (which ofcourse you climb to and kill).

Everything I just listed done with only 10 Estus Flasks is undoable, and if you manage to survive it the boss will finish you off. At least that was my experience for nothing less of 30 tries.

Damn.... you really weren't able to get past that bonfire? Not to be a dick or anything, but fuck man, that's one of the easiest sections in the game.

Yeah, that game is clearly not for him. I beat that part in like an hour the first time I got through it. Now that I've learned a lot more about the game, I can go from Undead Asylum to beating the Gargoyles without getting hit once.

hey sweet friend, i made it clear with my first sentence that i was referring to 'people' not just you. im not required to address your post point by point. i think youre full of shit and youre looking for an internet fight . youre exactly the kind of person ive been talking about in this thread who is insanely defensive of dark souls and condemns anyone who thinks it has problems .. also. i am not wasting your time. i REALLY would prefer you to not engage yourself in this conversation.

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