Do PC gamers have the right to complain about using GFWL?

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#1 Edited by xyzygy (10008 posts) -

So after so long and PC gamers complaining for this game to come to their platform, the FROM finally decide to release the game with an enhanced edition and hopefully what will be a good port of an amazing game. However, some of the the PC crowd, not satisfied unless everything is utmost perfection, are complaining AGAIN that they decided to use GFWL. They created a petition here.

It seems like the PC gamers are just asking From Software to spoil them now. From Software listened and announced the game PLUS bonus content, which will probably be awesome (not to mention the game will look outstanding), and they still have the nerve to complain about how the game is being delivered? What do you say?

It's one thing to complain that a game is not on your system of choice, that I can understand. What I don't understand is complaining AFTER a developer listens and positively responds to your original complaint.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have worded "right" in the title differently because now everyone is taking this weird legal stance and saying "everyone has rights" and all that shit. I meant more like "Should PC gamers complain... etc". I realize that we are paying customers, but are you also willing to give up playing this amazing game on the PC just because it's on GFWL? FROM is releasing the game PC gamers wanted, and it's on GFWL. How is that any different from a game being released on PS3 and then complaining about it because they are known to YLOD, or 360s because the older models were known to RROD? Every platform has it's naysayers, but from personal experience I just really don't see how GFWL is inherently evil. I played Halo 2 and Fallout 3 on GFWL with no problems and I really don't "get" all these bad things people say about it because I simply didn't run into them in my 100+ hours in F3 and my short time spent with Halo 2. (Well, Fallout had crashing but it's an open world Bethesda game - that is common. It happened no more than it would have on a console, maybe 5-6 times over the course of 110-120 hours.)

#2 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

Gamers get to complain about anything, but I'd be wary about grouping together PC gamers complaining about GFWL with PC gamers in general. I guarantee you that the silent majority are simply happy that they'll be able to play a good game on their platform of choice.

#3 Posted by Tennmuerti (8123 posts) -
You always have a right to complain.
Developers always have a right to ignore said complaints (or likewise do something about them)
 
Personally: because of GFWL this means I will not be able to buy Dark Souls on the PC, as I was indending to originally, because GFWL is region restricting games to only a handfull of counties.
#4 Posted by matthias2437 (985 posts) -

You have the right to complain but the complaints are generally pointless/stupid. Honestly GFWL is not that bad of a service, it isn't steam or anything but it works just fine.

#5 Posted by Jaqen_HGhar (901 posts) -

Those who actually have problems with GFWL should be able to complain all they want. But as Tennmuerti said, From has all the right in the world to ignore said complains.

I don't have any problems with GFWL. The games I have on it works flawlessly, I get achievements on my Gamertag, and fun all around. I have yet to beat Dark Souls on my 360 though, so will probably skip the PC version. Though, it is tempting... just to support them.

#6 Posted by Hosstile17 (764 posts) -

I am pretty alright with the idea of getting points for playing Dark Souls.

#7 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

GFWL doesn't even work in some countries, iirc. So yes, they have the right to complain.

This is a reason people pirate.

As for me, it doesn't really bother me enough for me to complain, but I'm not going to pretend that GFWL is a good thing, it isn't, it's annoyed me quite a few times in the past.

#8 Posted by scarace360 (4828 posts) -

Im mad that they are using GFWL but i dont know yet.

#9 Posted by xyzygy (10008 posts) -

In regards to pirating... I think people will pirate regardless of what platform it's on.

#10 Posted by Jack268 (3387 posts) -

Can't GFWL be disabled with some DLL or something? If you think it's that bad, that is. When I play SF4, I don't even notice it, so I don't understand why anyone would care.

#11 Edited by Three0neFive (2294 posts) -

@Jack268 said:

Can't GFWL be disabled with some DLL or something? If you think it's that bad, that is. When I play SF4, I don't even notice it, so I don't understand why anyone would care.

Just because you don't encounter problems doesn't mean everyone else's experience is silky smooth. I lost my GTA 4 save of 98% completion because GFWL crashed while I was saving.

GFWL is fucking awful, and people have every right to complain about it being in Dark Souls, but the ones who claim they're going to pirate the game solely because of it are assholes, plain and simple.

#12 Edited by doobie (605 posts) -

its the 'no steam no sale' lot that i find the funniest.

#13 Posted by Toms115 (2316 posts) -

the right to complain? sure, GFWL fucking sucks ass. it's probably too late for the devs to actually do anything about it now though, so i probably wouldn't expect much from the petition.

#14 Posted by jking47 (1214 posts) -

There are some perfectly valid complaints(such as region locking, save file corruption, etc.), and you always have the right to voice them. Personally I will still be getting it, I would prefer steamworks but more bosses means I am in no matter what.

#15 Posted by TheKramer89 (423 posts) -

They have the right to complain, just not the right to demand. And yeah, GFWL sucks. And yeah, no steam, no sale (for most things anyway).

#16 Posted by LordAndrew (14426 posts) -

Some people have had very real problems with GFWL, and it's understandable that they don't want that in the game. Some people just like complaining though.

#17 Posted by Codeacious (960 posts) -

@Three0neFive said:

Just because you don't encounter problems doesn't mean everyone else's experience is silky smooth. I lost my GTA 4 save of 98% completion because GFWL crashed while I was saving.

This is my biggest fear. Losing a Dark Souls save like that would likely drive some people to... extremes. I know I personally would never play it again if something like that happened.

#18 Posted by MatthewTheBeast (170 posts) -

They do have the right to complain if certain aspects of the product becomes faulty/relatively restrictive or something like a service that would otherwise impede it. Which is in this case would be GFWL, since there are some well-documented problems as mentioned,region blocking and etc on that platform.

#19 Posted by Dagbiker (6977 posts) -

@xyzygy: Yes they have a right to complain. But i also think your looking at Consumerism wrong. they arnt including bonus content to be nice, they are including it so Dark Souls for PC will be a better value. And if people think that GFWL reduces the value they have a right to say so.

#20 Edited by Three0neFive (2294 posts) -

@isnipeyoudie said:

@Three0neFive said:

Just because you don't encounter problems doesn't mean everyone else's experience is silky smooth. I lost my GTA 4 save of 98% completion because GFWL crashed while I was saving.

This is my biggest fear. Losing a Dark Souls save like that would likely drive some people to... extremes. I know I personally would never play it again if something like that happened.

Yeah. To be fair, though, it was kind of the same way with Demon's Souls - the save was locked to your harddrive and couldn't be copied or exported to an external device.

I'm dreading the day my PS3 finally kicks the bucket. So many hours of farming for Pure Bladestone... D:

#21 Posted by doobie (605 posts) -

@rebgav said:

I don't like Origin. The download speeds are crappy, the overlay stutters and freezes, and the games are overpriced.

I wanted to play Mass Effect 3. I downloaded Origin, paid over the odds, waited while the game downloaded in slow-motion, tried to ignore that it took forever to log-in to EA's servers every time that I launched the game, and avoided using the overlay. I endured, played the game, then uninstalled all that crap. At no point did I feel the need to cry about it, start a petition, or insist that the entire process be altered to suit my whims - yet the world keeps turning. It's almost as if I'm not the center of the universe or something.

i on the other hand bought ME3 off Origin. it was the same price as it was on amazon at release. it downloaded very quickly, never had any problem logging in to the EA servers and have never found the interface stuttery or has it frozen. i keep it on my PC as i have Burnout Paradise, BF3, Alice, Dead Space 1 and 2 Mirror Edge that all launch though it.

i do agree the prices can be over priced out side of a sales though. but then again so is steam.

#22 Posted by easthill (351 posts) -

@rebgav said:

I don't like Origin. The download speeds are crappy, the overlay stutters and freezes, and the games are overpriced.

I wanted to play Mass Effect 3. I downloaded Origin, paid over the odds, waited while the game downloaded in slow-motion, tried to ignore that it took forever to log-in to EA's servers every time that I launched the game, and avoided using the overlay. I endured, played the game, then uninstalled all that crap. At no point did I feel the need to cry about it, start a petition, or insist that the entire process be altered to suit my whims - yet the world keeps turning. It's almost as if I'm not the center of the universe or something.

I everyone was like you, we would have always online DRM, with only 3 activations in every game by now.

#23 Posted by Towers (96 posts) -

@rebgav said:

I don't like Origin. The download speeds are crappy, the overlay stutters and freezes, and the games are overpriced.

Really? I get faster speeds in Origin than I do on Steam. On Origin I get 3 to 5MB down and on Steam I get 1-2MB down.

#24 Posted by artgarcrunkle (970 posts) -

Nope no one should complain about anything. They definitely shouldn't complain about something that sucks that's for sure.

#25 Posted by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

Of course they have the right to complain, GFWL effing blows.

#26 Posted by wemibelec90 (1700 posts) -

While I can understand the vitriol for GFWL, I'm still a little annoyed that the gamers that got what they wanted (Dark Souls on PC) feel the need to complain about something else, now that they got what they wanted.

#27 Posted by AlexW00d (6283 posts) -

@xyzygy said:

So after so long and PC gamers complaining for this game to come to their platform, the FROM finally decide to treat them to the game with an enhanced edition and hopefully what will be a good port of an amazing game. However, some of the the PC crowd, not satisfied unless everything is utmost perfection, are complaining AGAIN that they decided to use GFWL. They created a petition here.

It seems like the PC gamers are just asking From Software to spoil them now. From Software was kind enough to announce the game PLUS bonus content, which will probably be awesome (not to mention the game will look outstanding), and they still have the nerve to complain about how the game is being delivered? What do you say?

It's one thing to complain that a game is not on your system of choice, that I can understand. What I don't understand is complaining AFTER a developer listens and positively responds to your original complaint.

They have as much right to complain as you do to make this thread. You clearly know nothing about GFWL so I can only think you made this to bait people.

GFWL as software straight up doesn't run half the time, it wipes people's saves, it locks it's content out to people unless you are from one of ~13 countries, and it's a huge pain in the ass to have to log in to something entirely superfluous.

It'd be similar to if the Witcher came to console but you were only able to play it half the time, you were only allowed to keep your save for 2 days, and you lived Poland.

#28 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

GFWL is unwanted but personally it's not enough of a deterrent to abandon a Dark Souls PC release. Hopefully the next From release on PC excises the GFWL tumor. Baby steps.

#29 Posted by WinterSnowblind (7617 posts) -

Probably. But the people who demand it be on Steam are the ones who really bother me. It's a great service and all, that doesn't mean it's the only place you should buy games. Turning Steam into a monopoly is not good for PC gaming.

Those claiming they're just going to pirate it now are even worse. Congratulations, you petitioned a company to port over a game and it succeeded.. It now stands zero chance of ever working again.

#30 Posted by MikkaQ (10294 posts) -

Everyone has the right to complain about everything, that's kinda how voices and language work.

But From shouldn't be acting like they're doing PC gamers a favor by porting this. They wouldn't have done it if they didn't think it was financially viable. If it's a commercial product, which it is, then it should be entirely scrutinized by the consumers. Some people see GFWL as a problem, and reason enough to avoid games with the label, so if I was From I'd have done the research and found out that PC folks like them some Steamworks.

#31 Posted by CaptainCharisma (339 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

You always have a right to complain. Developers always have a right to ignore said complaints (or likewise do something about them)

Very true.

#32 Posted by mazik765 (2315 posts) -

Of course they have the right to complain. Is it founded? Fuck no. Does it make them look like a bunch of entitled crazy people? Hell yeah.

#33 Posted by bobafettjm (1505 posts) -

I actually get excited when I see a game uses GFWL. I always enjoy getting achievements on my Live account while I play a game. Also, just because it's GFWL doesn't mean it won't be on Steam, there are a lot of GFWL games on Steam right now.

#34 Posted by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

I really don't think it matters much in the end, but I'd really like to know why From chose GFWL instead of steamworks.

#35 Posted by phrosnite (3518 posts) -

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! GfWL? FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Man, I wanted to play that game.

#36 Posted by insane_shadowblade85 (1461 posts) -

Don't you have to be online to use GFWL? My internet has been disconnecting at odd times here and there.

#37 Posted by Gaff (1773 posts) -

@ahaisthisourchance said:

I really don't think it matters much in the end, but I'd really like to know why From chose GFWL instead of steamworks.

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft was willing to, how to put this gently, "compensate" the cost of porting and developing the new areas in the PC version. Of course, this is just me indulging in some speculation, but I'm curious what'll come out of Namco-Bandai's press event at E3 this year. If DLC is announced for the Xbox360 first, well... We all know what that means.

#38 Posted by doobie (605 posts) -

@Gaff said:

@ahaisthisourchance said:

I really don't think it matters much in the end, but I'd really like to know why From chose GFWL instead of steamworks.

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft was willing to, how to put this gently, "compensate" the cost of porting and developing the new areas in the PC version. Of course, this is just me indulging in some speculation, but I'm curious what'll come out of Namco-Bandai's press event at E3 this year. If DLC is announced for the Xbox360 first, well... We all know what that means.

no. what does it mean?

#40 Posted by bio595 (307 posts) -

What is it that GFWL actually does?

When I've played batman and fallout it just tells me when I get achievements.

Other than the overlay what services does it actually provide?

#41 Posted by Tan (425 posts) -

You always have a right to complain. Complaining about this would be stupid though.

#42 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

I hate how much gamers complain, but in this case, yes. They totally have the right to complain about that.

#43 Posted by ajamafalous (12007 posts) -
@Tennmuerti said:
You always have a right to complain.
This. 
 
The concept of "DOES THIS GROUP I DON'T AGREE WITH HAVE THE RIGHT TO COMPLAIN?" is the fucking dumbest thing. There is no situation in which someone doesn't have the right to complain.
#44 Edited by xyzygy (10008 posts) -

@AlexW00d said:

@xyzygy said:

So after so long and PC gamers complaining for this game to come to their platform, the FROM finally decide to treat them to the game with an enhanced edition and hopefully what will be a good port of an amazing game. However, some of the the PC crowd, not satisfied unless everything is utmost perfection, are complaining AGAIN that they decided to use GFWL. They created a petition here.

It seems like the PC gamers are just asking From Software to spoil them now. From Software was kind enough to announce the game PLUS bonus content, which will probably be awesome (not to mention the game will look outstanding), and they still have the nerve to complain about how the game is being delivered? What do you say?

It's one thing to complain that a game is not on your system of choice, that I can understand. What I don't understand is complaining AFTER a developer listens and positively responds to your original complaint.

They have as much right to complain as you do to make this thread. You clearly know nothing about GFWL so I can only think you made this to bait people.

GFWL as software straight up doesn't run half the time, it wipes people's saves, it locks it's content out to people unless you are from one of ~13 countries, and it's a huge pain in the ass to have to log in to something entirely superfluous.

It'd be similar to if the Witcher came to console but you were only able to play it half the time, you were only allowed to keep your save for 2 days, and you lived Poland.

Actually, it's available in 35 countries. In 2007 they had support for 26, then in 2010 they added nine more countries. Claiming that it has only 13 countries is clearly something you pulled out of your ass - it uses the same network as Xbox Live, hence why you use the same gamertag to sign into both. I suggest you search more before you make numbers up.

I have played two GFWL games to completion (Halo 2 and Fallout 3) and I have had absolutely zero problems with them. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I never hit a snag - I simply ran the games, had no problem with the Guide and I was away and playing my games... and I could keep my save for however long I wanted :S

Oh, and you can play GFWL in Poland. I don't know where you got that from.

#45 Edited by xyzygy (10008 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

@xyzygy: Yes they have a right to complain. But i also think your looking at Consumerism wrong. they arnt including bonus content to be nice, they are including it so Dark Souls for PC will be a better value. And if people think that GFWL reduces the value they have a right to say so.

Hmm. I'm not really saying that they're just being nice, I'm saying that PC gamers are getting all this exclusive bonus content, as part of a way to make the PC version more attractive and get more sales from FROM Software and the publisher's side, and they still feel like they're entitled to something better even after petitioning to get the game in the first place.

#46 Posted by Shivoa (626 posts) -

A right?

Damn skippy they do!

I think you wanted to ask a different question but the one you did ask is real simple. Do potential customers have a right to opine what features and ancillary services are used on a product they are being courted to purchase? How is the answer anything but yes? Is the bizzaro world where the answer is no also a place where people are told to shut up about the punch to the bollox that comes with their BigMac? How dare they have a view on the thing they don't want that comes bundled with the thing they do want to buy. Surely their voice, as someone who is no longer buying BigMac due to a desire to avoid the punching, is something the seller of BigMacs would be interested in. The money is on the table, but the punches are preventing it changing hands. If the punching is something that can be removed without issue then maybe there would be some value in deciding the BigMac does better without the added service.

See also how the internet has destroyed the word 'entitled' and now it has no meaning and is just used because comparing to Hitler became passé.

#47 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

You always have a right to complain. Developers always have a right to ignore said complaints (or likewise do something about them) Personally: because of GFWL this means I will not be able to buy Dark Souls on the PC, as I was indending to originally, because GFWL is region restricting games to only a handfull of counties.

Agreed. This idea that is being pushed around that video game complainers are automatically invalid because *Louis C.K. is fascinated with the banal* is wrong. People not only have a right to complain, as consumers they actually have a responsibility to complain when things aren't as they should be. Sometimes you can't vote with your wallet when the regional restrictions prevent a purchase.

#48 Posted by emem (1968 posts) -

Of course they do. 
 
I don't think the petition will do anything this time, but I can live with GFWL if I have to... I just feel bad for those who can't even play the game because of where they live, that's messed up.

#49 Posted by whyareyoucrouchingspock (975 posts) -

@xyzygy said:

So after so long and PC gamers complaining for this game to come to their platform, the FROM finally decide to treat them to the game with an enhanced edition and hopefully what will be a good port of an amazing game. However, some of the the PC crowd, not satisfied unless everything is utmost perfection, are complaining AGAIN that they decided to use GFWL. They created a petition here.

It seems like the PC gamers are just asking From Software to spoil them now. From Software was kind enough to announce the game PLUS bonus content, which will probably be awesome (not to mention the game will look outstanding), and they still have the nerve to complain about how the game is being delivered? What do you say?

It's one thing to complain that a game is not on your system of choice, that I can understand. What I don't understand is complaining AFTER a developer listens and positively responds to your original complaint.

Dude i'm paying them fucking money for the product. This is not a gift, they are getting paid... for a service. If the service is poor, of course the customer has the right to complain.

#50 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -

Hang on, you're claiming that From Software are doing PC gamers a favour by releasing this game?!

I'm always willing to admit people on the Internet are often entitled cunts, but they are releasing a commercial product because they can make money from a larger audience. It's not like they're doing someone a solid and thus become immune to criticism.

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