Holy cow am I glad I picked pyro class.

#1 Posted by bkbroiler (1641 posts) -

I don't know how I'd beat those knights (the ones in the quick look) without my fire. I almost feel cheap.

How to non-magic classes do it?

#2 Posted by FUMN (85 posts) -

Imma wanderer with a lvl 3 scimitar. This is how it goes.

Get his attention. Lead him into open area. Do a roll when he attacks. If im close, then I light attack while hes recovering and roll away. Takes me some time but its not too bad.

Quit making me regret rolling as a phys class.

#3 Posted by bkbroiler (1641 posts) -

I dunno, I feel like I'm missing out on some integral part of the game in some ways. I'm sure you're having a much more satisfying experience.

#4 Posted by Ethereal (103 posts) -

I echo your Pyro comment... Having the ranged option from the get go is great. I have Soul Arrow now as well from the Sorcery trainer. Nice to have a lot of spell options if you don't wanna constantly hit bonfires

#5 Posted by Ghost249 (250 posts) -

@bkbroiler: I had fun fighting those knights, first time met when low level did 10 dmg ran away, second encounter when buffed up and stuff with upgraded gear and what not (Rolled with the iconic knight just like I did in Demon's Souls, loving the experience except for sen's fortress... god damn guillotines...) pretty much stuck them down while blocking their attacks, felt great to kill those mini-bosses up close and personal, it's the awesome feel of accomplishment that drives for people to do insane stuff or to play in their own way. But rolling with this class has been great! (minus sen's fort, may consider equipping havel's ring to get by but then again...)

#6 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -
@bkbroiler: What knights in the Quick-Look? Sorry but so many things in this game look like knights lol 
Is it the one that Rorie tries to sneak up on?
#7 Posted by kaithefoolish (8 posts) -

lol, I had to lure them to the boar area and hide behind the burning corpse until I did perceptible damage.

#8 Posted by Ghost249 (250 posts) -

@Resident4t: he could be talking about the Leonidas knights (thats what I call them cause of the cape) or the mini-boss black knights.

#9 Posted by Vorbis (2750 posts) -

As a lowbie Knight, lure him to the nearest ladder, climb said ladder, jump off said ladder, land on his head, repeat 4-5 times.

Or as a Knight a few hours later, shrug off his attacks with shield, hit him in the face, repeat.

#10 Posted by TobbRobb (4841 posts) -
@Vorbis said:

As a lowbie Knight, lure him to the nearest ladder, climb said ladder, jump off said ladder, land on his head, repeat 4-5 times.

Or as a Knight a few hours later, shrug off his attacks with shield, hit him in the face, repeat.

Did that as a wanderer. They really aren't that hard. Just NEVER hit them when they point the sword towards you.
 
We are talking about the cape ones right?
#11 Posted by bkbroiler (1641 posts) -

@Resident4t said:

@bkbroiler: What knights in the Quick-Look? Sorry but so many things in this game look like knights lol Is it the one that Rorie tries to sneak up on?

@Ghost249 said:

@Resident4t: he could be talking about the Leonidas knights (thats what I call them cause of the cape) or the mini-boss black knights.

Yes, talking about the caped knights. Though I also destroyed the big black knight with the giant shield with fire.

#12 Posted by wolf_blitzer85 (5293 posts) -

I restarted for the third time with a Pyro and I felt like I was having a good time. I then decided to get the Drake Sword and then I really felt like I was cheating.
 
Of course I quickly learned that having an awesome sword still doesn't give you the right to swing it around all willy-nilly.

#13 Posted by Vorbis (2750 posts) -

@TobbRobb said:

@Vorbis said:

As a lowbie Knight, lure him to the nearest ladder, climb said ladder, jump off said ladder, land on his head, repeat 4-5 times.

Or as a Knight a few hours later, shrug off his attacks with shield, hit him in the face, repeat.

Did that as a wanderer. They really aren't that hard. Just NEVER hit them when they point the sword towards you. We are talking about the cape ones right?

Oh I was talking about the black knights. Caped ones stumble after they hit your shield, best time to attack.

#14 Posted by McShank (1630 posts) -

So i am SL 50. only magic is the heal miracle. and i am rolling with the Wise (merchants) armor. I also am farming souls and have currently 159,280 and am farming more as we speak. Know how i did it? I used the all powerful Melee!!! :P I rolled a pyro earlier but had to go back to my beautiful black knight wielding monster of a character.. Ranged is a problem sometimes until i remember my huge shield blocks Everything i need it to as i run up to people. Also the black knights were killed pretty easily. I think i had all 4 dead before i passed sl20 as i wanted their weapons.. sadly i only go their halbred and not the awesome great sword.

#15 Posted by Tennmuerti (8174 posts) -

Block strike, block strike, block strike. Dead knight.
At least that's how I did it with my melee char at low lvls.

#16 Posted by onarum (2292 posts) -

Real men play the game pure melee.

#17 Posted by Jonathan_Strange (6 posts) -

@onarum said:

Real men play the game pure melee.

I kind of agree, it doesn't feel like you're getting the full experience playing a magic focused class.

#18 Posted by Ghost249 (250 posts) -

@Jonathan_Strange: plus playing melee makes your aware as you have to watch your surroundings and you endurance meter and stuff, being a knight is definitely the best experience I had since demon's souls

#19 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19388 posts) -
@Jonathan_Strange said:

@onarum said:

Real men play the game pure melee.

I kind of agree, it doesn't feel like you're getting the full experience playing a magic focused class.

Why not? Or do you think that people don't get the full experience without playing as a generic knight/soldier/infantry class in any game that gives you the option?
#20 Posted by MentalDisruption (1670 posts) -

Are we talking about the knights with the rapiers that parry? There's one attack that they do that leaves them wide open. When they double thrust that is your opportunity to attack. You'll know when it's going to happen because the thrusting sound is a lot louder than normal on the first thrust.

#21 Posted by nohthink (1223 posts) -

@bkbroiler: lol It's funny you say that because I have no idea how other people will play with a non warrior class lol

Love my warrior!!

#22 Posted by Bobby_The_Great (1014 posts) -

@bkbroiler: It'll get MUCH tougher later one. Just be glad for what you have now...

#23 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -
@FluxWaveZ said:
@Jonathan_Strange said:

@onarum said:

Real men play the game pure melee.

I kind of agree, it doesn't feel like you're getting the full experience playing a magic focused class.

Why not? Or do you think that people don't get the full experience without playing as a generic knight/soldier/infantry class in any game that gives you the option?
I would agree with a pure magic user not getting the full experience.  A melee user has to get up close and look for openings, he has a lot of weapons at his disposal that can alter your strategy completely. With a magic user and a high damage output,  it could mean that a fight could be over very quickly. With shielding magic,  you also don't even have to be very careful. I have only used about 4-5 spells so some of it is speculation. With Dark Souls in particular the melee classes are far from generic.
#24 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -
@bkbroiler: Well for a melee class both are very easy, as long as you don't attack the caped night while he is in his parrying stance. When you do attack them in that pose, it HURTS.  Basically all you have to really do is wait for an attack, when their attack bounces off your shield you have an opening. You can also kick them while they are in their parrying stance to get another opening for attack.  Sometimes the only option you have is to go back another time though.  When you do go back, and you can match up to an enemy that was stronger than you before... it feels awesome.
#25 Posted by Mars (310 posts) -

@Ethereal said:

I echo your Pyro comment... Having the ranged option from the get go is great. I have Soul Arrow now as well from the Sorcery trainer. Nice to have a lot of spell options if you don't wanna constantly hit bonfires

Where is the sorcery trainer? I've been going strictly melee with the exception of an occasional arrow. It would be nice to have another option.

#26 Posted by MentalDisruption (1670 posts) -

@Mars said:

@Ethereal said:

I echo your Pyro comment... Having the ranged option from the get go is great. I have Soul Arrow now as well from the Sorcery trainer. Nice to have a lot of spell options if you don't wanna constantly hit bonfires

Where is the sorcery trainer? I've been going strictly melee with the exception of an occasional arrow. It would be nice to have another option.

There's a blacksmith in New Londo who sells Soul arrow and heavy soul arrow. You can get there by taking the elevator down in firelink. He's off to the right, and down a set of stairs on the cliff.

#27 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19388 posts) -
@Resident4t said: 
I would agree with a pure magic user not getting the full experience.  A melee user has to get up close and look for openings, he has a lot of weapons at his disposal that can alter your strategy completely. With a magic user and a high damage output,  it could mean that a fight could be over very quickly. With shielding magic,  you also don't even have to be very careful. I have only used about 4-5 spells so some of it is speculation. With Dark Souls in particular the melee classes are far from generic.
I still don't see your point. Magic-only classes require a whole lot of different strategy such as enemy spacing, decision of which spell to use on which enemy, quick select management... You also have very little health, so going up to your enemy and just casting away won't work and no, shielding magic won't cut it as it's temporary, you can't cast it a lot, and only "true" shielding magic is Iron Skin, which makes you incredibly slow and is therefore not efficient for a long ranged combatant. And I'd always call "armored dude with a sword/spear and shield" generic. It has nothing to do with the gameplay, but has all to do with the concept. They all practically do the same thing, while the magic you cast in Dark Souls isn't the same as the stuff you'd cast in another game like it.
#28 Posted by Nate (705 posts) -

@MentalDisruption said:

Are we talking about the knights with the rapiers that parry? There's one attack that they do that leaves them wide open. When they double thrust that is your opportunity to attack. You'll know when it's going to happen because the thrusting sound is a lot louder than normal on the first thrust.

I found my spear attack broke through a whole lot more than this. I could often get through when he was just walking around with his rapier pointed and his shield on the side. And pretty much any time he starts an attack I give a thrust from a good distance. A spear is a great weapon against these guys, although I wouldn't say it makes them a piece of cake by any means.

#29 Edited by Nate (705 posts) -

@bkbroiler said:

I don't know how I'd beat those knights (the ones in the quick look) without my fire. I almost feel cheap.

How to non-magic classes do it?

Firebombs, my friend. They're pretty cheap. Also, I started a pyromancer class and just got frustrated. By the time I initiated the spell most enemies were on top of me. It just felt a little too slow and the range wasn't great. But that's the beauty of this game - different classes and different play styles can radically change the game and everyone finds their own thing that works.

#30 Edited by NekuCTR (1663 posts) -

How I deal with every enemy in the game:

1.push forward and to the right until I'm behind him,

2.push R1,

3.Profit

#31 Posted by JackSukeru (5964 posts) -

With the stamina and shield I have right now I just go up close then strafe, strafe, strafe until the knight starts swinging. I block all of the attacks while I keep strafing, if the knight has a particulary fierceful last swing I can get behind him and backstab, otherwise I back off for a bit and lower my shield to regain stamina, then get in close again. I do the same thing with the caped knights though they are quite a bit easier.

#32 Posted by Doctorchimp (4055 posts) -

@bkbroiler: Indeed.

I went Wanderer, but I was agonizing over Pyro too. So I went wanderer, and lo and behold when I got to the Pyro trainer I fell in love with the fireballs and leveled up the fire hand to lvl 9. I got the Power Within in Blighttown it's pretty rad.

#33 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -
@FluxWaveZ said:
@Resident4t said: 
I would agree with a pure magic user not getting the full experience.  A melee user has to get up close and look for openings, he has a lot of weapons at his disposal that can alter your strategy completely. With a magic user and a high damage output,  it could mean that a fight could be over very quickly. With shielding magic,  you also don't even have to be very careful. I have only used about 4-5 spells so some of it is speculation. With Dark Souls in particular the melee classes are far from generic.
I still don't see your point. Magic-only classes require a whole lot of different strategy such as enemy spacing, decision of which spell to use on which enemy, quick select management... You also have very little health, so going up to your enemy and just casting away won't work and no, shielding magic won't cut it as it's temporary, you can't cast it a lot, and only "true" shielding magic is Iron Skin, which makes you incredibly slow and is therefore not efficient for a long ranged combatant. And I'd always call "armored dude with a sword/spear and shield" generic. It has nothing to do with the gameplay, but has all to do with the concept. They all practically do the same thing, while the magic you cast in Dark Souls isn't the same as the stuff you'd cast in another game like it.
That is kind of exactly it. Enemy spacing seems to be the only thing you have to worry about.  Without a Mana bar, which would be the equivalent of a stamina bar for a melee class, you are free to use spells for as long as their stock allows. For a melee character stamina is tied to blocking, rolling, and attacking. You have to be aware of those things in addition to the enemy patterns and spacing.  As I said before I am speculating on some of the magic stuff, but just from an outsiders perspective a magic class can cheese his way through things a bit easier.
#34 Posted by Jaqen_HGhar (961 posts) -

Being a Thief, I have tried to backstab more or less every enemy. Those skeletal knights with rapiers are the only ones I have yet to land a successful backstab on for some reason. They are also the only "normal" enemy in the Undead Parish I have some trouble with. Probably not any more though, as I now am strong enough to use the Drakesword.

I will most likely move back to daggers when I get some good ones though, as you aren't as hindered by tight spots.

#35 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19388 posts) -
@Resident4t said: 

That is kind of exactly it. Enemy spacing seems to be the only thing you have to worry about.  Without a Mana bar, which would be the equivalent of a stamina bar for a melee class, you are free to use spells for as long as their stock allows. For a melee character stamina is tied to blocking, rolling, and attacking. You have to be aware of those things in addition to the enemy patterns and spacing.  As I said before I am speculating on some of the magic stuff, but just from an outsiders perspective a magic class can cheese his way through things a bit easier.

You just ignored everything I put except for enemy spacing in regards to what magic classes need to take account of. Do you really think enemy patterns are not important for a Sorcerer in a game like Dark Souls? Really? And if you're just saying that it's more complicated because of the stamina bar, I'd love to see you play a pure magic class yourself. Guess what: Sorcerer's need to roll too and sprint too. And since they have less of a stamina bar and because dodging is their only reliable defense, they need to be very precise when they decide to roll out of the way of an upcoming attack.  
 
Furthermore, like you said, "you are free to use spells for as long as their stock allows". Unfortunately, this stock isn't infinite. A sorcerer has to manage the reserves effectively because, if you don't, you're screwed and have no offensive capabilities. The game's probably more balanced for melee classes because there would be no way I would have been able to solo the Capra demon because of my extremely low health. So I still fail to see how playing a magic based class is "playing the game wrong", especially when it's an option made available by the developers.
#36 Posted by JackSukeru (5964 posts) -

@Durandir: I tried a Thief for a bit and definetly liked the fast attacks, found another dagger and tried dual-wielding, boy was that a disaster.

I'd still like to try it again once I get another Thief dagger, but I'm having a real hard time seeing the benefits of dual-wielding in this game. I think alternating attacks might save stamina, but I'm not sure. Also; parrying is hard.

#37 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -
@FluxWaveZ: Sorry, I never said that a magic based class is playing the game wrong so I can't really argue to that point.   I am not saying that enemy patterns and dodging aren't important for the sorcerer, I honestly think that it is a necessity for every class.  I simply said that a melee class has more things tied to the stamina bar, in a fight a melee focused character is more dependent on it, it asks for a higher degree of awareness than a magic class.  As for sorcerers having less health and stamina, that is entirely up to you seeing as you can allocate points in to those stats.  If you are going up against a boss that has physical attacks or has to get close to you, you can learn his pattern and then attack from a safe distance as a sorcerer. .  I am not saying either one is easier, but judging by the bosses I have fought so far having a strong ranged attack would definitely have ended the fights very quickly. You can use the attack animations of some of the bigger or slower bosses to a greater advantage if you are using a ranged attack.
#38 Posted by FluxWaveZ (19388 posts) -
@Resident4t said:
As for sorcerers having less health and stamina, that is entirely up to you seeing as you can allocate points in to those stats. 
Not quite. Obligatory stats for a magic build are Attunement and Intelligence. Meaning that's already 2 stats that you need to distribute souls to. None of those give you extra bonuses for being able to resist powerful attacks better. If you decide to distribute points to Vitality for more health, strength for better armor, endurance for better defense... then you will get murdered later on as your magic won't be powerful enough to deal with the enemies. So by definition, Sorcerers will have less health and less stamina than a melee class unless you actually decide to play a hybrid or something.
 
@Resident4t said:
I am not saying either one is easier, but judging by the bosses I have fought so far having a strong ranged attack would definitely have ended the fights very quickly. You can use the attack animations of some of the bigger or slower bosses to a greater advantage if you are using a ranged attack.
Then you should probably play a class like that before you give your opinion on how it is to play a pure magic build.
#39 Edited by Red_R0B0T (33 posts) -

I gotta say, I'm having fun taking this game as a jack of all trades character.

I started as a thief (so I could get the master key and a gift) and I'm going for mostly Dex, but at SL 27, I have the minimum stats to dabble in sorcery, miracles, and pyro, and I'm digging having options.

I'm sure a purebreed character is more powerful, strictly speaking, but I don't see myself doing a new game+ (or even beating the whole game) so I kinda want to experience a little of everything this first go-round.

#40 Posted by heatDrive88 (2403 posts) -

An all-out melee build is totally viable, and not as hard as it seems. It might make you a little more gear dependent, but it still works really well. I'm using a pure knight build with just enough faith to use a healing ability (10 or 12 is all you need). All it really comes down to is having a solid amount of endurance/stamina, and having a good shield. I pretty much used a Hollow Kite Shield (and that default starter Tower Kite Shield) all the way through until I could get my hands on a Greatshield (the Eagle Shield from Blighttown). Either way, a good shield with high stability (so you lose less stamina when blocking strikes) and a good amount of reserve stamina will take you a long way.

Putting points into vitality isn't even necessary as a knight, I've maybe put 1 or 2 points into at the most, and I'm level 40-ish. All the rest of my points of been getting my endurance to 40, and the rest into strength and dexterity as needed for gear.

#41 Posted by ImperiousRix (2963 posts) -

As long as I get the knights one-on-one and have patience, I can pretty much always take them down. I pretty much rely on just tanking the thrust with my shield and responding with a light attack if given minimum space. If I've got room to move, I tend to evade attacks and go for a big lunge. It's riskier, but it mops them up faster.

#42 Posted by CaptainTightPants (2834 posts) -
@FluxWaveZ: You're not obligated to do anything. Sacrificing a few points in to vitality or endurance to fit your needs would still allow for a pure magic character.   
 And yes I have just rushed in to fights with only magic attacks ( I like to try them all out). I didn't get touched and all I had to do was as I said wait for an attack animation to finish or dodge and attack.
#43 Edited by FluxWaveZ (19388 posts) -
@Resident4t said:

@FluxWaveZ: You're not obligated to do anything. Sacrificing a few points in to vitality or endurance to fit your needs would still allow for a pure magic character.     And yes I have just rushed in to fights with only magic attacks ( I like to try them all out). I didn't get touched and all I had to do was as I said wait for an attack animation to finish or dodge and attack.

And what I said was that you would get murdered later in the game if you sacrificed too many points into vitality or endurance as your only offensive capability would be lost. You're obviously talking about early game because later on, you can't just rush into fights only using magic if you're any type of melee-centric class.
#44 Posted by bkbroiler (1641 posts) -

@Nate said:

@bkbroiler said:

I don't know how I'd beat those knights (the ones in the quick look) without my fire. I almost feel cheap.

How to non-magic classes do it?

Firebombs, my friend. They're pretty cheap. Also, I started a pyromancer class and just got frustrated. By the time I initiated the spell most enemies were on top of me. It just felt a little too slow and the range wasn't great. But that's the beauty of this game - different classes and different play styles can radically change the game and everyone finds their own thing that works.

Well, I guess the magic definitely requires some good timing. Similar to getting your attacks in, you gotta wait for the shield to lower.

@Resident4t said:

@bkbroiler: Well for a melee class both are very easy, as long as you don't attack the caped night while he is in his parrying stance. When you do attack them in that pose, it HURTS. Basically all you have to really do is wait for an attack, when their attack bounces off your shield you have an opening. You can also kick them while they are in their parrying stance to get another opening for attack. Sometimes the only option you have is to go back another time though. When you do go back, and you can match up to an enemy that was stronger than you before... it feels awesome.

I've attacked a caped knight with his parry up, and I know what you're talking about. Instant death!

#45 Posted by Jaqen_HGhar (961 posts) -

@RockmanBionics: Yeah, I wanted to try out dual-wielding once I found another good dagger. But seeing how I can't get the timing right on parrying I don't think that is a good idea for me. Besides, not having a shield when facing those damned crossbow hollows is a bad idea. Some of the bolts even curve and home in on you!

#46 Posted by Largo6661 (341 posts) -

Im a sorcerer and i couldnt imagine fighting thouse things with out soul arrow.

#47 Posted by Tru3_Blu3 (3242 posts) -

I let the ass hole attack and backstab him in the spine.

Thief for the win.

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