O&S NG+, recommended level?

#1 Posted by TobbRobb (4554 posts) -

Considering the amount of DS threads I've been posting in, It's kinda weird I never made one myself.

Now this is a pretty simple question. I'm at Fatboy and Slim on NG+. And they are kicking my ass left and right, I got powered up Smough down to about half health at most. And only got one hit in at worst. Maybe this is just a matter of frustration right now, BUT GODDAMMIT I WANT TO WIN NOW. Do I seem too weak or too strong for the task? Should I level up more, or simply take a break and try again later? What levels were you guys at this point?

Some things to consider before giving me any sort of advice, I've never summoned someone to help, and I refuse to even consider it. Call me stubborn, but I want to win alone. And I also rolled a greatsword build on PC even though the majority of my playtime previously was with a katana. On top of that I might have gimped myself a bit by going for the Greatsword of Artorias a bit early, "I want to use it so bad, but it's going to suck for a few more levels...".

My equipment and stats:

Zweihander +15

Black Knight Shield +5

Guardian set except for the head, which is Ornsteins helm.

Ring of Steel protection and Havel's Ring.

Vit 25

End 40

Str 41 "accidentally" :P

Int/Dex/Faith are all 20. For Artorias.

This brings me to level 103.

#2 Posted by baalzamon (3 posts) -

You seem to be playing a heavyset character, whereas I always chose to go for low vit high dex speed builds so I can't offer any advice for battle tips... however, I am replaying the PTD version and will say that I am still on playthrough 1 at level 75 with SEVERAL locations left to go, and that includes 0 farming and generally being pretty good at avoiding death (which can actually lead to more souls than if you just run through the game flawlessly, as I'm sure you know). On my PS3 NG+ I do remember Ornstein and Smough being the most difficult battle I had yet come across and, like you, there was a sort of satisfaction involved in doing it without summoning Solaire or an Internet Dude.

To make it short, my point is that I suspect that your level is somewhat low. Perhaps try tackling some optional areas first? Also, definitely don't go in frustrated, but that goes without saying. Best of luck, Cap'n.

#3 Posted by mason (258 posts) -

Maybe you need a different approach?

I decimated those two my first time through NG+ and I was about the same level as you. I'm not even that great a player. I often die to them in my first playthrough.

I think what I learned is that it's a lot harder to tank these guys than to just outmaneuver them (you're trying to out-tank a couple of tanks). Since you're wearing one of the heaviest armors in the game, you'll be spending most of your stamina on movement and blocking. Sooner or later their relentless attacks will just wear you down and leave you wide open. Your armor might save your life the first few times, but it's only a matter of time until it doesn't.

I don't find poise useful for this fight. So use whatever armor with decent lightning resist you want that still allows you to fast roll. As long as they can't kill you in 1 hit, it'll do. For good measure, maybe swap that steel protection ring for a wood grain ring so you can easily avoid their every move. I doubt the SP ring is allowing you to take more hits. It's probably making each hit do slightly less damage, but if it's still the same number of hits that kill you, then it's effectively the same as not using it.

#4 Edited by groin (833 posts) -

@mason said:

Maybe you need a different approach?

I decimated those two my first time through NG+ and I was about the same level as you. I'm not even that great a player. I often die to them in my first playthrough.

I think what I learned is that it's a lot harder to tank these guys than to just outmaneuver them (you're trying to out-tank a couple of tanks). Since you're wearing one of the heaviest armors in the game, you'll be spending most of your stamina on movement and blocking. Sooner or later their relentless attacks will just wear you down and leave you wide open. Your armor might save your life the first few times, but it's only a matter of time until it doesn't.

I don't find poise useful for this fight. So use whatever armor with decent lightning resist you want that still allows you to fast roll. As long as they can't kill you in 1 hit, it'll do. For good measure, maybe swap that steel protection ring for a wood grain ring so you can easily avoid their every move. I doubt the SP ring is allowing you to take more hits. It's probably making each hit do slightly less damage, but if it's still the same number of hits that kill you, then it's effectively the same as not using it.

I'm not sure if you're aware but they nerfed the wood grain ring in the IBM compatible version of the game. It now requires <= 25% equip burden.

#5 Posted by TobbRobb (4554 posts) -

Hmm, I guess I might try and going for the fast roll. It feels a bit like admitting defeat though... I've already played a low weight dex character for a million hours. So I wanted to be a tank for PC.

Meh fuck it, It'll be a bit awkward with the Zweihander, but I'll go back to old habits for a fight.

#6 Edited by mason (258 posts) -

@groin: I am aware. But at 40 endurance, that under 25% isn't that hard to accomplish. You won't have much poise (if any) but in this fight it's not that useful anyway. Combined with Havel's ring it'll allow for a couple of pieces of medium body armor, or one really heavy piece, and still be light enough to do ninja flips with the wood grain ring.

If using heavy weapons like Zweihander, well, fully-upgraded light armor can still take some hits.

You know what? I change my advice. If you really want to defeat them with a tank character, just to prove you can do it, then go for it. I'm just saying it's maybe the worst boss for tanks, but I know it's possible. Just hard.

Other tips that worked for me with a tank character (but not on NG+):

- Use an upgraded crossbow and keep backing away from them (block and shoot). Nothing with too long a reload.

- Stamina will be a problem so Cloranthy Ring might help.

- Coat your Zwei with Fire.

- Maybe use "Power Within" to add more damage to your attacks?

- At the bonfire, do rite of kindling to 20 Estus, if you find yourself running out of healing.

For me, the biggest problem with a slow character in this fight was that during the second phase, it's hard to get away from the electric butt slam attack if you can't roll, and that move HURTS.

#7 Posted by TobbRobb (4554 posts) -

@mason: Thanks for the motivation, I'm a bit calmer now so it might just work anyway. But I'll throw some fire on the sword and try Power Within. Can't hurt ey? :D

#8 Posted by mason (258 posts) -

Weeeeellll, technically, Power Within can hurt since it drains your HP. Lingering Dragoncrest ring helps it last longer and simultaneously slow down the the damage.

If you're in NG+ and your attunement high enough, you should equip 2 copies of it. Use one before you enter the fog door, and one immediately after one of them goes down.

#9 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5181 posts) -

Eagle +14/15 shield is your best bet (or Crystal Eagle +4/5). With your sword it might be a bit hard to hit Ornstein, unless you summon Solaire to distract him.

#10 Posted by Pieman51 (98 posts) -

@Fredchuckdave said:

Eagle +14/15 shield is your best bet (or Crystal Eagle +4/5). With your sword it might be a bit hard to hit Ornstein, unless you summon Solaire to distract him.

Balder Shield or Tower Kite Shield+14/15 can actually get nearly as much stability as the Eagle Shield+14/15, plus it has more physical defense and I think Lightning defense.

#11 Posted by Ares42 (2557 posts) -

I beat the fight easily using havel's shield, but I guess that's sorta out of your reach. Best alternative I can figure out would be to get an upgraded Giant's Shield. Would give you a decent stability upgrade and more lightning protection. I would also replace the steel protection ring with cloranthy.

#12 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5181 posts) -

@Pieman51 said:

@Fredchuckdave said:

Eagle +14/15 shield is your best bet (or Crystal Eagle +4/5). With your sword it might be a bit hard to hit Ornstein, unless you summon Solaire to distract him.

Balder Shield or Tower Kite Shield+14/15 can actually get nearly as much stability as the Eagle Shield+14/15, plus it has more physical defense and I think Lightning defense.

The bleedthrough damage doesn't really matter that much, but Eagle's insane stability can let you beat Ornstein and Smough with a very small amount of stamina; if you have a super generic build with 40+ stamina then you shouldn't really be having much trouble with any boss.

#13 Posted by Deusx (1902 posts) -

I'd say asking this question when you have played the game before means you didn't learn much the first time but hey, here is my advice: Use a faster weapon, Remove your chest piece and helmet, be patient, use a light shield with 100% physical resistance, don't get hit. NG+ is a one shot business. If you get hit you die, your vit is very low so you'll have to be better than most characters. Don't get hit. Watch ENB's challenge on youtube for more tips and tricks on this battle.

#14 Posted by Inquisitor_Sif (58 posts) -

When I fought them in NG+, I was SL 125. I tanked them with Havel armor set, BK Halberd +5 and Artorias great shield. Didn't have much trouble with them with that set up. Oh, I also used Havel ring and Cloranthy ring, otherwise I wouldn't be able to move with such heavy equipment.

#15 Posted by envane (1159 posts) -

did em with +15 baller swag sword , at lvl 83 , 27vit for 1201 hp with fap ring , 15st 40 dex 34end 15 int .. was definately challenging but still fun and doable , should be ok at your level , certainly wont get that much easier , ng+ arty gave me more trouble as i couldnt interrupt him fast enuff anymore

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