Probably overhead on tnt today of the guys talking about this, so i figured id post this for you guys in case anyones interested in seeing the talk. personally it comes off a bit elitist for him to say something like that, as i think both types of games can coexist fine.

george broussard sums up what i think

https://twitter.com/georgeb3dr/status/299636455922360320

heck even ryan agrees with him.

https://twitter.com/taswell/status/299637449892704256

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

I don't understand why people get riled up by people like Cage or Molyneux. Should all games have to possess the qualities these men preach about? Absolutely not. It is however nice to have some different opinions and philosophies in an industry that is still very young. Heavy Rain for example is a flawed game but it does something different which in this landscape of first or third person shooters is refreshing.

@msavo: its the pure fact that the dude says he wants those types of games to go away, no ones saying no to more mature games,

but the fun stupid stuff Mr Cage and Mr Spector wants gone, there will hell from people cause he said that.

Is this another tired "games with purple dildos are stoooopid" argument he's making?

Because if that's what it is i'm not interested. If he wants to preach for more mature games, telling people that playing or making games like Saints Row is stupid is not the right way. The right way is to make the damn thing you're talking about and make it well.

@Pr1mus said:

Is this another tired "games with purple dildos are stoooopid" argument he's making?

Because if that's what it is i'm not interested. If he wants to preach for more mature games, telling people that playing or making games like Saints Row is stupid is not the right way. The right way is to make the damn thing you're talking about and make it well.

bingo. and if people like it, then people will demand more of it,

I'm so glad I have no clue who all these people are and what their opinions involve.
 
Now, back to gaming.

@TaliciaDragonsong: more power to you, thats the best way to roll honestly

So this is becoming a thing, then? I think getting riled up over it means overblowing something that is not that big a deal (which should not surprise me, really). I think he raises some fair points, though he does so in a misguided way. Indeed, what I choose to take from it is that we SHOULD have variety rather than isolating gamers by making repetitive and samey games. I'm all for meaningful plots - sometimes it sure doesn't feel like there's a coexistence going on in this generation.

Ultimately, he's trying to emphasize the games he wants to make.

I still don't forgive David Cage for that extremely cheap example of story telling / "twist" in Heavy Rain.

SO DUMB. People must know what I'm referring to, the part in the shop towards the end.

@mrfluke said:

@msavo: its the pure fact that the dude says he wants those types of games to go away, no ones saying no to more mature games,

but the fun stupid stuff Mr Cage and Mr Spector wants gone, there will hell from people cause he said that.

They can say all they want but they aren't going away. Again I don't understand why people get riled up. That's Cage and Spector's opinion on the industry and unless they suddenly own every publisher and console manufacturer all they can do is sit back and apply their own ideas to their own games and have some people possibly be influenced by their viewpoints. When you hear EA executives talk about how they are going to milk the consumer for every penny during investment calls, they use more classier language, you don't see people get riled up because the face of gaming will be changed forever due to their viewpoints and actions. It is a small sub-set of gaming and if you do not want to be a part of it or do not want to promote these types of ideas, be it my example, Cage and Spector's views etc, than you simply don't participate in them.

@msavo said:

I don't understand why people get riled up by people like Cage or Molyneux. Should all games have to possess the qualities these men preach about? Absolutely not. It is however nice to have some different opinions and philosophies in an industry that is still very young. Heavy Rain for example is a flawed game but it does something different which in this landscape of first or third person shooters is refreshing.

QFT

I think it comes down to people like Cage seeing games like Saints Row and Lollipop Chainsaw getting so much attention, deserved or not, when the majority of the conversation around games like Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain these days generally focuses on the ludicrous plot twists. Cage needs to focus on making a mature game of the sort he wants, do it well, and stop worrying about the fact that people are enjoying more absurd, crass games like Saints Row.

It takes all kinds. It's okay to have big dumb games, like Saints Row The Third, and it's okay to have serious games that are interested pushing the art form forward. There's no reason to eliminate either side.

The only games I can take seriously are the ones with horrible voice acting in them.

If he had made the Walking Dead the maybe people would be okay with the things he said. However, he isn't Telltale and instead brought Heavy Rain into the world so he deserves all the criticism he gets.

Yeah, he's been spewing the same pretentious nonsense every chance he gets for years now. This isn't really any different.

@msavo: ur right, but the basic reason to people getting riled up is essentially there will always essentially be 2 opinions on a subject. and when one person says something, there will always be another that says something else cause they dont agree with the original person,

cage and spector are popular people so they will obviously get more of the flak than usual,

i think both can coexist, i want my big stupid game and i want my big pretentious/meaningful game.

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

Oh i wouldnt say that now, dude just likes how games are now and likes the big mainstream games, nothing wrong with that. its a cynical view, but i see where hes coming from, if you disagree u disagree, dont say its an extremely small section now.

unless that post was sarcastic.....if so... then carry on.........

I didn't get the sense he was calling to outlaw big dumb games, but was simply sharing his point of view on a perceived issue and outlining what he thinks could help address the perceived issue. No one is going to stop making games the way they do because of this talk.

I treat it like any debate speech or editorial - a person has a point of view and supports it with some arguments - some of which, I think are interesting - game length, the balance between narrative and gameplay in games (ala Walking Dead) and what constitutes action in games (creating games that rely on dramatic tension rather than action) - and some of which were not.

@mrfluke said:

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

Oh i wouldnt say that now, dude just likes how games are now and likes the big mainstream games, nothing wrong with that. its a cynical view, but i see where hes coming from, if you disagree u disagree, dont say its an extremely small section now.

unless that post was sarcastic.....if so... then carry on.........

Haha nah, I wasn't being sarcastic at all. Just.. the games he mentioned generally don't have stories, so they are kind of irrelevant to the discussion of storytelling in games. Like, I'm sure Drew wouldn't feel like his flight sims are being threatened by Cage's statements.

David Cage is just upset that he cant write

Sounds neat. If the awards were not going on right now i'd watch this. I think well made silly games are great too of course. I don't want Bayonetta to go.

@ImmortalSaiyan: totally OT to the thread, but you should check back at the dice awards stream thread i posted the full awards list for ya

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

Actually the top selling games every year are Call of Duty, Madden and FIFA, so they make up a much larger part of the video game industry than the rest of the industry.

The #1 selling game of 2012 was Black Ops II, #2 was Madden 13, #6 NBA 2k13, #10 was FIFA 13. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/11/top-selling-video-games-2012_n_2456680.html#slide=1970857

@jdh5153 said:

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

Actually the top selling games every year are Call of Duty, Madden and FIFA, so they make up a much larger part of the video game industry than the rest of the industry.

I'd question your math a bit if you think that the sales of those games is more than the combined sales of the rest of the industry, and therefore represents a larger part than the "rest of the industry." It also helps that there is ONE NFL game released every year, so every person who wants to buy a football game will buy that one and help those numbers.

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

Actually the top selling games every year are Call of Duty, Madden and FIFA, so they make up a much larger part of the video game industry than the rest of the industry.

I'd question your math a bit if you think that the sales of those games is more than the combined sales of the rest of the industry, and therefore represents a larger part than the "rest of the industry." It also helps that there is ONE NFL game released every year, so every person who wants to buy a football game will buy that one and help those numbers.

They represent 60% of the top 10 games (I missed Halo 4 and Modern Warfare 3). There's not a single Nintendo or 'niche' game in the top 10. Just saying. What a nerd thinks the game industry is, isn't what the actual game industry is. The most popular games are mobile games (Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, etc.), mainstream shooters (Call of Duty, Halo) and sports games. 60% is not a "small section" of the industry.

Reading through this thread, it's dawning on me that the video game industry is the only entertainment industry where its own fans don't bother to learn the names of the industry. It'd be like being a avid reader and not knowing J.K. Rowling or Neil Gaiman, or a movie lover not knowing Peter Jackson or Alfred Hitchcock.

Hey, people, don't worry: It's okay if you know who people are. They won't come and take your games, nor will they ruin them. I promise. Educate yourself just a little, pretend to be interested, and maybe, just maybe, pretend to have something more to say than "DON'T KNOW WHO HE IS, DON'T CARE LOL VIDYA GAMEZ."

Also, OP, did you even watch the video? He clearly says that video games will continue to be video games, he just wants the industry to mature a little bit more, which isn't a bad thing.

@jdh5153 said:

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

Actually the top selling games every year are Call of Duty, Madden and FIFA, so they make up a much larger part of the video game industry than the rest of the industry.

I'd question your math a bit if you think that the sales of those games is more than the combined sales of the rest of the industry, and therefore represents a larger part than the "rest of the industry." It also helps that there is ONE NFL game released every year, so every person who wants to buy a football game will buy that one and help those numbers.

They represent 60% of the top 10 games (I missed Halo 4 and Modern Warfare 3). There's not a single Nintendo or 'niche' game in the top 10. Just saying. What a nerd thinks the game industry is, isn't what the actual game industry is. The most popular games are mobile games (Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, etc.), mainstream shooters (Call of Duty, Halo) and sports games. 60% is not a "small section" of the industry.

I guess the thing you aren't getting is that David Cage isn't saying, "Guys we need to tell better stories if we want to move more units!" He is talking about making a quality piece of art. It isn't something you can argue by citing sales figures. For the discussion to even take place between two people they need to go in with the belief that games are worthwhile and can be more than just dumb fun or time killers. Clearly that isn't what games are for you, and thats cool. So feel free to go have some dumb fun while the adults talk.

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

@evanbower said:

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

So you just like sports games? Then yeah, there is no reason why you should know a fairly famous creative force in the industry. At the same time, you should probably recognize that your interest is in an extremely small section of what video games are. So different that they can hardly be compared to games made by developers like Quantic Dream.

Actually the top selling games every year are Call of Duty, Madden and FIFA, so they make up a much larger part of the video game industry than the rest of the industry.

I'd question your math a bit if you think that the sales of those games is more than the combined sales of the rest of the industry, and therefore represents a larger part than the "rest of the industry." It also helps that there is ONE NFL game released every year, so every person who wants to buy a football game will buy that one and help those numbers.

They represent 60% of the top 10 games (I missed Halo 4 and Modern Warfare 3). There's not a single Nintendo or 'niche' game in the top 10. Just saying. What a nerd thinks the game industry is, isn't what the actual game industry is. The most popular games are mobile games (Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, etc.), mainstream shooters (Call of Duty, Halo) and sports games. 60% is not a "small section" of the industry.

I guess the thing you aren't getting is that David Cage isn't saying, "Guys we need to tell better stories if we want to move more units!" He is talking about making a quality piece of art. It isn't something you can argue by citing sales figures. For the discussion to even take place between two people they need to go in with the belief that games are worthwhile and can be more than just dumb fun or time killers. Clearly that isn't what games are for you, and thats cool. So feel free to go have some dumb fun while the adults talk.

See that's exactly what I'm saying. Video games for me are nothing but something to do while having a beer after work and competing against friends. I'm not all that invested. Some of you are and that's cool and all, but I make no effort to hide that I'm 90% a "mainstream" gamer. People act like that's a bad thing and video gaming is some exclusive club that should shun Call of Duty and Madden players. Really we like the same thing, just in different ways. I was simply identifying my interests to further explain why discussions like this don't make one difference to people like me and that's why I don't care to learn who this guy is or what he's blabbering about.

That is all.

@jdh5153 said:

Never heard of him........after watching the first few minutes..... I don't give a crap about change in video games. All I want is my Call of Duty, Madden, FIFA, NBA, MLB and Forza and you can't change those. Racing will always be the same. Football will always be the same. Shooting people will always be the same. People who say "oh Madden never innovates" it's fucking football, football doesn't change year to year.

Yeah, but they're also the ones who scream the loudest when the games THEY care about DO innovate. So there ya go.

A casual kids violent action games, clearly this is how you corner the market and yes i want to be the hero, i can be mundane in my real life, thanks.

I highly doubt David Cage of all people could actually change anything by saying anything which makes this discussion kind of moot. The only man I could see saying something like this and even being able to maybe directly influence games this way on a wide scale would be Mark Rein or whoever is responsible for making Unreal Engine deals. If all of a sudden they decided they weren't going to license their game unless it was as Cage describes, maybe. For all the ills, both legitimate and illegitimate, in the games industry, it's kind of hard to make anything come to a full stop at this point.

In the age of the internet, the standard for executing on ideas is that much higher and speaking on what ought and ought not be related to games has shown to be a hard thing to do well. Commenters are one thing, but the press side has been even commenting on this based on my twitter account, which I think says something. I haven't watched what he said, nor do I want to, but as I said before, Cage is not the man to even start saying something like this and have it make a big difference.

Anyway, how the fuck is the kind of game being made the issue here by anyone? Aren't employment, contract, work hours, and related things way worse? Sure that issues is not simple but at the very least it deserves and probably requires more of a public discourse than authorship stuff like this.

I love the Crank movies, but I also love more serious films like The Deer Hunter. There is room for both kinds in the world of cinema, and the same goes for games. We can have our more serious and mature games along with our absurd purple dildo bat moronathons. Both industries need both extremes. Without that variety games and movies would be a bit dull.

(To be fair, was David Cage even a writer on Heavy Rain, or did he just create it?)

Hey Ash, Whatcha Playin'? actually argued that Saint's Row The Third IS a progressive, political game, just in a very stealthy way, where it's not preaching to you or making a direct statement. It allows you to be a male-to-female transgendered character, and nobody objects to or comments on it. It's also the only game Ashly and Anthony played that even gave them the option of being a plus-sized woman, when maybe one or two other games gave you the option of being overweight, but only as a male. I don't think all games need a political message, though. Sometimes it just doesn't fit into the feel of the game, or the writers have nothing to say on a specific issue, or they feel it's been better said elsewhere by someone else.

I also disagree with him and think that camera bugs and stuff like that are definitely places for a reviewer to take points off. It's one thing people who loved or hated a game can both agree on, and ideally, a finished game wouldn't even have bugs.

The only games I can take seriously are the ones with horrible voice acting in them.

I don't mind David Cage giving his opinion, but the assumption he's hanging his hat on is flawed and simplistic, i.e. "the video game industry refuses to grow up. My proof is the best selling games are violent or kids games". I'm going to assume that since Mr. Cage is specifically calling out the video game industry for being childish and derivative in it's content, that he does not think the same of other forms of media, like movie, television and books.

However, if you apply his standard of measuring the maturity of an industry to these other forms of media, you'll see similar results. The highest rated TV shows are banal, unfunny comedies, procedural cop or investigation shows, and 'contest shows' like American Idol. The top grossing books are pretty much dominated by an 'erotic' trilogy (50 Shades of Grey) and two different series of romance triangle books targeted at teen and pre-teen girls (Twilight & The Hunger Games), the latter two having their fair share of violence and generally considered to be poorly written and not very original. The top grossing movies of 2012 are violent action movies, three of which are based on comic books (TDKR, Spider-Man, Avengers), one being the third in a trilogy (Dark Knight Rises) and another being the fourth movie based on that franchise in 10 years (Amazing Spider-man), two movies based on some of the aforementioned books (Hunger Games & Twilight), and then more or less dominated by movies targeted at children (Madagascar, Brave). Oh, except for the one violent action movie that is the 25th in the series (Skyfall) and the first movie in a trilogy based on a book from nearly 80 years ago (The Hobbit).

My point is not that David Cage is necessarily wrong, but merely that he's measuring the industry myopically. The way he's going about it, he comes off as a haughty person who views themselves as a creative visionary who is being overlooked because we're all too busy playing Call of Duty 5000 and hitting each other with purple dildo bats in Saints Row when the reality is he has made niche games that are seriously flawed and have sold accordingly. A cinematic murder investigation game with tank controls, poorly implemented QTEs, and (from what I understand) poor voice acting and a so-so story aren't going to sell millions or win a bunch of awards for originality. As a perfect counter point, even when a game is somewhat flawed but does an amazing job with story and character (The Walking Dead), well, we see how well it is received critically and commercially. This smacks of jealousy and sour grapes on his part.

It's OK for him to be pushing for something he believes, even if it's a big misguided. If he pushes for something extreme, we might actually settle somewhere in the middle. It's the same reason I appreciate Jonathan Blow - I don't want EVERY game to be a healthy gaming meal, but more of them wouldn't be a bad thing.

However, I believe there is this problem, where some of the people who grew up playing games, basically grew up with the industry. They forget, that not everyone is their age, and not everyone wants these mature experience about real life.

Of course we should have the games he's propositioning, but not ALL games should be that. And hopefully he understands that.

I'm going to go ahead and leave this here...

I love Dead or Alive and I...liked Heavy Rain a lot. There's room for both ends of the spectrum. I can't figure out why things always have to fit into a little neat box.

This is an industry thats built on having fun.......  And kids sell products revolving around fun, not my grandparents.  Im all for change but these ideas dont seem like they could "improve" the market for vidya games.  Its easy to say hey we should do this and this but its much harder to execute those ideas.  

It's hard to believe half the people in this thread even watched the video before posting.

He didn't come across as harsh or combative towards popular games, he just pointed out that there are flaws in the industry that support iteration over innovation and the long term lack of innovation is starting to and will eventually kill the industry. I don't know how you can honestly argue with that.

The only thing I took issue with is that his talk seemed a little self serving as he was strongly hinting that there should be more games and more success for the specific types of games he makes.

"Vote with your dollars" good advice, but who doesn't do that already?

People like this really bother me. I could only get about 10 mins in before I was too disgusted to keep watching. It's not even his message, which I disagree with, but his attitude about it. Ugh just gross.

i dont see why people (including the gb crew) get all threatened by people who dislike the way mainstream games are going/have a different idea for what they want games to be. like sometimes they seem genuinely offended that people wanna make games without machine guns and dubstep and rocking tits.

its not like they are trying to take away tits and explosions and from all your videogames and they couldn't do that if they tried. generally guys like jon blow, jenova chen etc are just espousing their own views on whats valuable about games.

@casper_ said:

i dont see why people (including the gb crew) get all threatened by people who dislike the way mainstream games are going/have a different idea for what they want games to be. like sometimes they seem genuinely offended that people wanna make games without machine guns and dubstep and rocking tits.

its not like they are trying to take away TITS and explosions and from all your videogames and they couldn't do that if they tried. generally guys like jon blow, jenova chen etc are just espousing their own views on whats valuable about games.

Why didn't they get American actors for their American-accent speaking characters?

@Funkydupe said:

Why didn't they get American actors for their American-accent speaking characters?

That would be too cliche.

@Kidavenger said:

It's hard to believe half the people in this thread even watched the video before posting.

He didn't come across as harsh or combative towards popular games, he just pointed out that there are flaws in the industry that support iteration over innovation and the long term lack of innovation is starting to and will eventually kill the industry. I don't know how you can honestly argue with that.

The only thing I took issue with is that his talk seemed a little self serving as he was strongly hinting that there should be more games and more success for the specific types of games he makes.

"Vote with your dollars" good advice, but who doesn't do that already?

I think everyone missed the point completely on this one. He's talking about the art side of games industry. The side of games that'll keep the industry alive after everyone gets sick of the same games over and over. The games that will still be made if every major developer went under and all the console manufactures called it quits. It's the same for the first console crash and it's going to be the same thing when it happens again in the future (and I believe it's bound to sooner or later).