Apparently this game is a scam.

#1 Edited by Ares42 (2729 posts) -

After putting in quite a few hours into the game I was starting to wonder why loot never really changed. I kept getting loot as rewards for doing things and there are plenty of other means of getting it, but 35 hours in I still felt like I was basically as strong as I was 5 hours in.

So then I went to check their forums and the concensus seem to be that the game isn't a loot-driven game. There is loot, but it doesn't really matter. Supposedly it's trying to be more of a standard FPS and keep a balanced pvp environment. I didn't dig deep enough to find any confimation about this from an official source, but it was a very apparent sentiment from people who had been following the game for a long time.

Now while that's fine and all and there's nothing wrong with a game that doesn't overplay the loot-role, but it's a problem when they are not just selling you access to more loot for real money, but also random loot. Buying loot-boxes in this game is basically just giving away your money, it doesn't give you any advantage in-game or anything fancy and shiny to look at. It's also one of the only things in the game that is visibly pushed as a microtransaction and all it is is a random chance at insignificance.

So ye, don't buy loot in this game. And, as already implied, if you were interested in this game for it's loot hook, stay away.

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#2 Edited by PISTOLcm (126 posts) -

"Sidegrade" is a word that applies. Games like Team Fortress 2 already do this, and are super successful. It is a GOOD thing that you can't buy the best guns, or even "better guns."

#3 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

Doesn't really sound like a scam to me.

#4 Posted by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

you bought this?

#5 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -

Sounds like MMO TF2 to me if, in fact, all weapons are viable. That's a good thing, if you ask me.

#6 Posted by project343 (2833 posts) -

Complaining that a game isn't pay-to-win?

Internet, you so silly...

#7 Posted by MentalDisruption (1642 posts) -

Doesn't sound like a scam to me. Just sounds like a case of the user needing to know whats being payed for instead of blindly making purchases.

#8 Edited by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

I can't find the energy to be passionate about a game that looks so boring. I hope the people playing it aren't getting ripped off though.

#9 Edited by MattyFTM (14417 posts) -

Isn't that a good thing? You pay for things that don't make a huge difference and support the developer. The other scenario is that you pay for things that are vastly overpowered and then dominate the game. The people with more money win. It's pay-to-win. Which is dumb and breaks the game.

Moderator
#10 Posted by jakob187 (21691 posts) -

I'm failing to see the problem here. If the general consensus on the community forums is that loot doesn't mean that much, then that is publicly accessible information to everyone, right? Then congratulations - no one needs to drop any money because that information is already known.

How is this a scam? It's an MMO third-person shooter with microtransactions. There's no scam there.

#11 Posted by Slag (4615 posts) -

How is this any different from selling DLC custom player skins?

It's not like they upgrade your abilities either. Not seeing the so called "scam" here.

As others have said, if this game is not Pay2Win that is a good thing not a bad thing.

#12 Posted by Dagbiker (6978 posts) -

First, its like 4 days old, If you can master anything in 4 days you need to get payed for doing that.

#13 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

I don't think that word means what you think it means

#14 Edited by Cameron (603 posts) -

If you read the OP's post carefully he does say that it doesn't even give you anything cosmetic (fancy and shiny in his words). That seems a little strange. If they are literally selling items that have no in-game benefit and don't even offer cosmetic changes, then they seem to be selling nothing of use, which seems pretty dumb.

#15 Posted by cmblasko (1282 posts) -

That seems pretty shady. Hopefully people are researching what they are getting before making those purchases.

#16 Edited by jakob187 (21691 posts) -

@cameron said:

If you read the OP's post carefully he does say that it doesn't even give you anything cosmetic (fancy and shiny in his words). That seems a little strange. If they are literally selling items that have no in-game benefit and don't even offer cosmetic changes, then they seem to be selling nothing of use, which seems pretty dumb.

...and yet people buy it. What does that say about people?

#17 Posted by DeathTrap (256 posts) -

I don't think the word scam means what you think it does. Also, there are different weapons in the game and quite a few cosmetic differences between the weapons. As an example of different weapons, I've had a number of assault rifles that behave differently (such as burst firing 3-5 shots or full auto), shotguns that fire spreads in different shapes or in a single shell (also double barrel/sawed off style and standard shotgun looks), rockets that break apart into cluster bombs as opposed to normal rockets, etc. I think you're jumping to conclusions and haven't really spent that much time playing before forming your opinions.

Now, I'm not going to say the game is perfect - it's far from that. There are a number of bugs that should have been long since fixed and some design decisions I really disagree with. But you need to realize that the loot in this game is not straight upgrade, for the most part. It's about choosing, for example, between having a pyro (ie, sets enemies on fire) grenade, electric grenade, or normal one. They're more or less equal in power, but different enough to have their own advantages and disadvantages (for example, pyro and electric grenades can cause the enemy to "panic" or get stunned). Additionally, and this is a bit more important, you need to realize how many "levels" there are in the game. Given that you seem to get a new "perk" point every 10 "levels," there are approximately 500 levels. You can reach EGO level 5000 before capping out. So if you're EGO level 150 or so, that's the equivalent of about level 2 in a MMO with 60 levels.

#18 Posted by TruthTellah (9318 posts) -

Doesn't really sound like a "scam", where they're tricking people or getting them to pay to win.

Sounds more like "a big waste of time and money".

#19 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5720 posts) -

In my time playing the Beta I definitely found more or less direct upgrades; but I could see it scaling to be more even later in the game. There's certainly much better weapons for ammo conservation/dealing with large groups of enemies; even if they're not tremendously different for PvP (though something like a Rocket Launcher is superb in PvP). I found a grenade launcher that let you have 2 out before you had to detonate them and another that had 5, the one that had 2 did slightly more damage sure but the one with 5 is still way better overall. The original Guild Wars had virtually no equipment bonuses and people seemed to like that.

#20 Posted by jaycrockett (468 posts) -

Loot absolutely matters, just not overwhelmingly so. In a traditional MMO, you are pressing number keys over and over, so one of the few things that differentiates anything is loot. Defiance is a shooter, so aiming and maneuvering are the most important things. But there are plenty of things about loot to distinguish things.

I like assault rifles. There are full auto and burst kinds, I like the full auto ones. Some AR's are better than others; I can see that from the damage numbers that fly off the people I shoot. Some weapons have trade offs: less damage, but faster reload. Smaller magazine but better damage falloff. There are elemental mods like fire, radiation, and electricity. Not sure what the benefits of each are, but I do like watching mutants run around on fire.

Then there are up to 4 mod slots on each weapon. Most weapons at my low level only have one or two. Mods have pretty minor effect, but give another opportunity for customization. Mods (stock, barrel, magazine, scope) drop as loot.

There also isn't any wearable loot, so it's just weapons, mods, and shield generators. Outfits are cosmetic and seem to drop as quest rewards.

But yes, buying lock boxes with real money is crazy. Is there any game where that isn't true?

#21 Posted by DeathTrap (256 posts) -

There are elemental mods like fire, radiation, and electricity. Not sure what the benefits of each are, but I do like watching mutants run around on fire.

Then there are up to 4 mod slots on each weapon. Most weapons at my low level only have one or two. Mods have pretty minor effect, but give another opportunity for customization. Mods (stock, barrel, magazine, scope) drop as loot.

The elements (as far as I know) are:

  • Fire/Incendiary (fire symbol): Sets the target on fire, causing DoT and can cause panic
  • Electric (electric symbol...obviously): Stuns target (and can stun nearby enemies). I think it also causes a DoT.
  • Biological (blue symbol): slows enemy movement and debuffs their damage (in theory - I don't have any of these myself)
  • Radiation (...green radiation symbol): Increases damage the enemy takes
  • Siphon (purple vortex symbol): Can cause extra damage that heals the player

Additionally, you can add more mod slots to your guns, but it's a bit weird. First, need to make sure the gun is not equipped (in any of your loadouts). Then, you can go to the "Salvage Matrix" (I think that's the name...the same place you add mods), and you'll have the option to add a mod slot. It may require a certain EGO level to unlock the ability to do this - I don't really remember. If so, probably by EGO level 150 or so. Another thing to keep in mind is that the scope mods will always add a first person zoomed look when aiming - kind of annoying on some weapons. For example, I don't put a scope on my shotguns, for the most part. Very little reason to do so.

#22 Posted by Daveyo520 (6861 posts) -

@hailinel said:

Doesn't really sound like a scam to me.

#23 Posted by jaycrockett (468 posts) -

It appears that this game has a very flat power curve. I can see how that might be strange to MMO players. The mobs don't scale, the guys at the beginning of the game are still relatively tough. The plus side is I can adventure wherever I want, I don't have to worry about what level I am.

I'm only around EGO 200 though, so it could change later on.

#25 Posted by laserbolts (5331 posts) -

Complaining that a game isn't pay-to-win?

Internet, you so silly...

I think he's more upset about it being pay for nothing. Either way I dont even know what this game is and haven't even seen anything about it.

#26 Posted by Wacomole (830 posts) -

@project343 said:

Complaining that a game isn't pay-to-win?

Internet, you so silly...

I think he's more upset about it being pay for nothing. Either way I dont even know what this game is and haven't even seen anything about it.

If only there were a site about video games yadda yadda yadda, you know the rest...

Seriously there's a Quick Look on the site.

#27 Posted by Teran (877 posts) -

@ares42 said:

After putting in quite a few hours into the game I was starting to wonder why loot never really changed. I kept getting loot as rewards for doing things and there are plenty of other means of getting it, but 35 hours in I still felt like I was basically as strong as I was 5 hours in.

...

Now while that's fine and all and there's nothing wrong with a game that doesn't overplay the loot-role, but it's a problem when they are not just selling you access to more loot for real money, but also random loot. Buying loot-boxes in this game is basically just giving away your money, it doesn't give you any advantage in-game or anything fancy and shiny to look at. It's also one of the only things in the game that is visibly pushed as a microtransaction and all it is is a random chance at insignificance.

So ye, don't buy loot in this game. And, as already implied, if you were interested in this game for it's loot hook, stay away.

1. Loot progression in this game exists in two ways (lateral and vertical) and these ways are not apparent to people who are just starting out. Yes, all weapons of a subgroup (like sawed off shotguns) have very similar base stats however one must realize that when you pick up a weapon it is incomplete. Weapons are basically templates that give players a foundation to build upon.

These foundations are all fundamentally similar (at times identical) and a weapon's quality seems to dictate how much variance it can have from other weapons of a subgroup by allowing it to have random properties like rate of fire, weapon damage, clip/mag size, etc. Where most white weapons are identical to others in their subgroups purple weapons will frequently have different bonuses applied to the template which allows players to choose which foundation they want to build their weapon on thus influencing the way the way the weapons vertical progression plays out.

A weapon's vertical progression is is determined by the quality and function of the mods you choose to use. To give an example, my favorite weapon that I have collected in the game so far is one of the hip fire smgs. I like it because the foundation bonus is a boost in rate of fire which is not a stat you can boost through weapon mods. A weapon fully modded with low grade mods will be significantly better than the same weapon with no mods. A weapon with high grade mods on the other hand will be significantly better than the same weapon with low grade mods.

2. I don't understand what your problem is with the real money loot boxes. We are not forced to buy them, in fact we can get them for free by playing the game... additionally we are not deceived into believing the loot boxes are guaranteed to give out upgrades every time we open them. It's called gambling and people do it all the time. It's not a very intelligent way of spending money in my opinion, but it is their money to spend if they so desire. When a person gambles they are not guaranteed a big payout, they are guaranteed a very tiny chance to win a big payout. The same applies to the loot boxes, you are not guaranteed an upgrade but rather the chance of getting an upgrade.

#28 Edited by jaycrockett (468 posts) -

@teran: Hey what is your experience with synergy mods? I bought a couple from a vendor and they all are "Brutal" synergies, which had mods related to melee. I wasn't sure if that was just luck of the draw, or if different vendors might have different types of synergies. I've also seen synergy mods named for starting backgrounds; veteran, machinist, etc. I don't know if those actually interact with your starting background of if they are named that for flavor.

#29 Posted by MikeJFlick (443 posts) -

Honestly enough, I like this sort of system alot.... my biggest problem with MMO's is that they don't make any sense at all, why is a level 100 sword so much better than a level 1 sword? Was the level 100 sword forged with baby tears? why do baby tear swords cut better than a normal steel sword?

Basically what I'm saying is "loot" shouldn't be the only driving force for players to play the game, and if you require a "level 35" to put a helmet on your head(as if the helmet is so epic your head would explode at level 34), then it's the type of game I'm not going to be interested in.

#30 Posted by Teran (877 posts) -

@jaycrockett: I am sorry for the long delay in response. I am sure you know by now, but just in case you do not...

There are two kinds of synergies in the game:

Weapon synergies only have two levels of bonus and the bonus and only have two bonuses, one for using a single weapon with that synergy, and one for using two weapons with that synergy. I've had a heck of a time finding two weapons with the same synergy that I'd want to equip at the same time so this synergy seems better for someone who basically never wants to switch to their backup weapon.

Mod synergies have four levels of bonus and only apply if a number of mods with the same synergy are installed into the same weapon. These tend to be the more powerful synergies but are incredibly difficult to acquire. I'm nearing EGO rank ~1700 and have only found a few mods with synergies on them. Of course if you like you can buy the random mods with a specific synergy packs from the faction vendors if you like that particular synergy but none seem that good compared to the ones you can find elsewhere.

#31 Posted by jaycrockett (468 posts) -

So the mod synergies and the weapon synergies aren't related? Like I can put brutal synergy mods on any gun and get the bonus, I don't need a "brutal" gun?

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