[2nd edit] It's over a month later, and I've seen absolutely NO proof that an upgradable version of the mask in question was able to be obtained for free. For now, I would ignore my first edit, as I believe I was sadly correct all along.

[1st edit] I'm keeping my original post here, but I've now heard several conflicting reports claiming that the mask you can only get in paid packages can actually be obtained through grinding. The last statement went beyond "I heard you can get it" into "I've personally found it for free," so I'm editing my post. If that's the case, it might be somewhat more rare, though, or it could just seem that way because many people are far more interested in that one mask. A further explanation of facts that are causing confusion can be found in post #9.

But for now, it's probably best to use this thread to discuss your thoughts on free to play mechanics being used in retail games, rather than the specific example listed below.

Original post follows:

So the Festival of the Lost event is going on right now, which allows you to buy new emote animations, and collect Halloween themed masks. The masks replace your helmet armor, so they actually make your character a bit weaker, but they're fun and collectible. Legendary masks will allow you to keep them at the end of the event, and rare masks can be upgraded to legendary. Your method of doing this is kind of limited, though, so most people are looking at getting to keep only two or three masks at the end of the event, unless they pay some real money.

There are 17 legendary masks, and you get one of them for free. You can find rare versions of 16 of the masks, but one of them can only be obtained in two ways. One way is to find it in random Festival of the Lost packs that are being sold for "silver"--Destiny's new "pay us real money for this fake money" currency--and the other is to get the mask for free from your one free legendary mask package. For the curious 500 Silver = $4.99.

Now 16 of the masks look like kind of cheap cardboard versions of various destiny characters and items, which I would admit is part of their charm. The 17th mask--the one that you can pretty much only find in packs that you buy with real money--is an animated flaming blue skull that in no way resembles a cardboard mask. It definitely stands out from the rest of the group, and there's no way to just buy it.

Maybe you'll pay nothing for it, and it'll be your random free mask. Maybe you'll get it for spending 200 of your 400 starting silver on a mask pack--assuming you didn't spend your silver on paid emote animations a couple weeks ago. Or maybe, you'll spend 100 dollars in actual money and still never get it, because everything is completely random.

This in a product where many have paid 134.99 for the game and its expansions.

Oddly enough, I'm actually okay with being asked to pay 700 silver--basically ten dollars--for an elaborate Halloween themed "Thriller dance" animation. If you like it, buy it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. And I'll be the first to admit that this is all subjective, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it, but there's just something different about asking people to pay real money for a chance at something that they might never actually get. It's even worse when it's in a retail title, and it's still worse when many of your customers recently paid 74.99 so they could keep playing your game for the last six months.

You might feel differently, but that crosses my personal line into "this just seems exploitative" territory.

I saw an article about this earlier that showed how to farm for these masks during the course of normal gameplay, and it didn't involve any microtransactions. But giving people one free shot at the only really unique and interesting mask in the pack and then charging them if they want more chances to get it is pretty shitty.

It's all purely cosmetic, and if you do the 3 minute quest on 3 characters you get 3 free legendary masks and 3 items that can upgrade rare masks into legendary ones (meaning you're guaranteed 4-6 masks to keep beyond the event, depending on if you get duplicates). It's extremely easy to farm rare masks so there's really no reason not to come away from the event with the masks you want to keep.

I know people like to default to outrage whenever microtransactions are involved, bu there's no reason to pay unless you want to collect legendary versions of every single mask. Also, it's the complete opposite of "pay to win" or "pay for power," since wearing a mask tanks your light level by like 40 points.

The line for me is drawn at paying for power. If and when that happens, I'll be leading the outrage bandwaggon, but until that happens they can sell whatever goofy emotes or cosmetic items they want as far as I'm concerned.

You get an item that can upgrade any rare mask into a legendary one, so you can just farm rare masks until you get the one you want to keep and then use the item on it. Plus, 3 characters = 3 chances to pull the one you want + 3 free upgrades for rare masks.

@ll_exile_ll: Is the flaming blue skull OP references the only legendary one? Is it possible to upgrade rare masks into that item?

Yes, the skull can drop as a rare just like any other mask as far I know. I haven't had it drop for me, but other people have said they've gotten it as a blue.

its a fun dumb little thing, why would you want to keep them anyway? they are just for messing around you cant actually wear them while doing any of the end game content

Are you sure about that? I believe you're mistaken when it comes to getting 3 legendary masks, one for each character. Only my first character got a legendary, the other two were rare. If that's actually the case with a rare drop version of the skull mask, I'll be happy to edit my post.

Here's a video claiming otherwise, clearly saying that there is a special mask that can only drop in packages that you buy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQRwmbQ04Bo

Also note that:

1) The purchasable mask package clearly says that a guaranteed legendary mask is included, while a skull mask is listed under possible contents.

2) When the skull mask is received from a paid legendary package, that package also includes a standard legendary mask. The skull is treated as a possible bonus.

3) The free mask packages you get from filling your candy bag list a guaranteed rare mask, with no mention of a possible skull mask.

Can you infuse/upgrade them to not be an actual hindrance? That blue skull looks cool but if i'm only ever going to be equipping it in the tower then I can't really be bothered.

Nope. I thought that considering that they don't have a light level, they might not negatively affect your light, but they actually get treated as if they had a very low light value rather than no light value. They dramatically lower your light, so they're pretty much only worth using in the crucible or on patrols. If they ever add a transmogrify feature, though, I'm sure people will be glad that they kept them.

They won't add transmog when they've just added that glass needle thing. Also they don't really have enough armour variety for it to be worth it. It's a shame because all the warlock gear looks like total ass. Unless you've got a Stag, in which case you're cool as hell.

@spaceinsomniac: @sweep: the masks hindering your armor is part of the deal, it's meant to make the quests harder.

Also I have like 6 masks and paid for none of them.

You might have rare masks that will expire at the end of the event, or perhaps you've received and destroyed enough rare masks to farm some glue--four masks per chance, if I'm not mistaken--which allows you to turn a rare mask into a legendary. Either way, most of the issue I have with this event has to do with how they're handling one particular mask, not the standard legendaries.

It's still a purely cosmetic item, even if they have introduced it in a honey-trap-for-whales kind of method.

It would be better, from our perspective, if everything was available just by playing the game and without having to spend additional money, but at some point Activision has to get theirs. At least they're doing it in a way that doesn't affect gameplay.

I have two legendaries and I haven't used my free glue yet. I will probably use it on the Crypt or the Xur masks since they are both pretty cool looking.

@dudeglove: I played Warframe for about two years and other than what you mentioned about some people being annoyed about "founders packs" which I think you could still get for a long period, I've never seen people get annoyed about cosmetic stuff or there being a scandal around it. But it's also a free game that gives you all the content for free.

I'd totally go back to Warframe on PS4 but my account is on PC with all my suits and my money, and the cost of the in game currency on PS4 at least seems waaay higher than I remember it being on PC though I do know I bought mine when it was on sale.

I've played quite a bit of Warframe, and as far as I'm concerned, the rules are completely different for Free to Play games. If I pay for a retail game, I expect it to include everything, or at least never sell PVP boosts or unlocks, and price content somewhat fairly at a "take it or leave it" price. The "pay real money for a chance at unlocking something" business model has always disgusted me when used in full-priced games, even when it's cosmetic junk.

Although I have made small exceptions when it comes to games that offered a great deal of free content in exchange for an optional "pay for loot" system. Mass Effect 3 multiplayer comes to mind. There was nothing that you couldn't unlock by playing the game, but you could pay instead of play for the same random package rewards. In exchange, everybody got loads of new classes, weapons, maps, and enemy types for free.

The worst thing that ever happened to me with Warframe is I spent an absolute ton of time and effort leveling a weapon that many felt was overpowered. For those who play Warframe, it was a Penta with four forma. I never used Platinum, so everything was pure grind, and it definitely took a while.

Arguably it was very overpowered, but the nerf it eventually received--changing the ammo count from 540 to literally 20--made the weapon next to useless. It was pretty much worthless when it came to end-game content. I would rather use the starter auto rifle, it was so bad. After that, and after seeing that my hard work--and potentially spent money--could be taken from me in a single update, I lost a lot of my desire to play that game anymore.

@dudeglove: I think they're both aping each other in a way. I dunno about the trading thing though, I never traded in that game. You can still as far as I know buy all the weapons/blueprints/materials you need from the shop so everything is still available even if Frost Prime blueprints aren't dropping any more.

Hey, look at that. Destiny being shitty again!

Cosmetic stuff is whatever. As many criticisms as Destiny rightly deserves this is not one of them.

.

Now Halo 5 on the other hand ... straight up p2w micro transactions that give you an advantage in a multiplayer match vs. other players. That's not just slimy, that's fucked.

But because this stuff has been encroaching slowly and over time, and is obfuscated in Halo 5 and hidden behind a random element I am not seeing as much of a pushback, it's really sad. And I don't even play Halo. They basically won, it's over. P2W is now an acceptable thing in Halo. Great stuff.

Why is it that people think that when something is cosmetic it is okay to charge money for? Having no in game effect makes it less valuable not more. So you This game is already $60. Hell, it's more than that if you have been buying the DLC.

Micro transactions in anything but f2p games are wrong and unethical. We shouldn't be making excuses for companies that are already making sooooooooo much money off of us.

I am just glad they are giving a lot of the stuff in this event away for free with the rare masks and glue. I actually thought they would charge for all of it. I personally think RNG on real money items is crap though, that's the part I would be outraged by if I thought this deemed worthy of outrage. Also, $9 for 6 packs of items, that kind of blows. But there are a lot of ways to not spend money on this and get what you want out of it, so in all honestly it doesn't bother me. Sorry, I'll be over here in the corner with my Zombie Dance watching that guy scare people with his Booo.

Random based microtransactions are gambling, it's fucked up. I've bought a couple CS:Go case keys and realized how fucking evil a scam that is. Like gambling, the house always wins and you are almost guaranteed to get crap, but there is a sensation of, "Well maybe i'll get lucky and everything up to this point will be worth it." It plays to people's worst tendencies and people pat Valve on the back for it. (Brad Shoemaker, comeon... stop your DOTA chest nonsense)

People say "Well you don't have to buy it." And you don't, just like people don't have to gamble, but they will because its addictive and the potential payout outweighs the money you spend up to a point.

It should be regulated just like that draft kings nonsense, but game's aren't important enough to warrant consumer protection i guess.

@dudeglove said:

@dudeglove I have not heard scuttlebutt about Warframe's micro-transaction (aside from the typical complaints like Platinum (Silver of Warframe) is too expensive unless you are lucky enough to get the 75% discount login bonus.

Steve Sinclar, Warframe's creative director stated many times on their developer streams (including a recent panel at comic con) that the sales of the founders pack saved the company from having to lay off several employees during the initial beta period. Their community manager, also cited that the Founders and Prime Access packs are what allow Digital Extremes financially to continue to release updates.

Aside from DE being pretty transparent this stuff, I think the main reason the Warframe community are more tolerant of micro-transactions thus far is that the developers have been pretty good at making sure every "Gameplay relevant" item in the game is obtainable through farming / grinding. Paying outright will definitely save you hours of grinding. But you are not locked out of weapon or warframe if you do not pay. To quote Game of Thrones, it becomes the stigma of did you pay the Blood Price (Farm it) or the Platinum Price? =P

For instance the Nova Prime Access Pack that @jeff bought for $100+ last year: The pack comes with Nova Prime (Warframe), Soma Prime (Warframe "exotic" Gun), avatars, 3000+ platinum (should last you a long time if you are smart about spending) and prime accessories pack. The accessories have no gameplay relevance aside from dressing up your warframe in gold bling.

Nova Prime and Soma Prime along with any other "Prime" equipment are drops in the Void that can be crafted in game.

Warframe also has trading and it allows you to trade platinum with other players. Most of the time you can get an item for less platinum than DE is selling it for from a player. Like instead of paying the $100 for prime access, if I just wanted Nova Prime and Soma Prime I can get those items from a player for far cheaper then paying the bundle.

With that said, there's a lot of random players that will scam or upsell something. The lack of a proper auction house means trading prices are the wild wild west. (Always ask for price check in the trade channel or @glitches) I might be bias because I am part of the GB Warframe Clan / Alliance and tend to trade with duders and people in the GB community are usually generous. =)

Side note: Steam Workshop support was added to Warframe last week, it looks like a greenlight system where users vote for which user generated skins they want Digitial Extremes to add to the game. I believe Digital extremes will split the revenue with the content creator. Right now the fan created skins are pretty lame though a lot of Counter Strike looking skins.

The most common thing that the Warframe community complains on forums and reddit about is nerfs and balance changes to Warframes. It's part of warframe's meta-game I guess. Its a hard problem to solve.

@ll_exile_ll said:

Where this argument can fall apart is when the microtransactions for cosmetic items is the testing ground for easing into pay-to-win schemes later on. I'm not saying this is the case here, because I have no idea. However, the argument of saying "games can nickel and dime their customers all the want on cosmetic items but GOD HELP THEM if they start selling anything of any consequence when it comes to gameplay" ignores this potential situation where telling the company you won't stand for microtransactions in any form might give them pause on adding microtransactions on things you actually care about.

this really annoys me. I spent 30$ and didn't even get all 17. 1 to go I guess. I've got like 4 of the skulls though. But the rest you do just have to kill guys with a mask on and you'll get candy which gets you a blue bag. So eventually you can ge them

@whitegreyblack: You can look at Payday 2's microtransaction situation and see that even taking a stand really doesn't affect a developers decisions if they're big enough. The same might not be true for a smaller game/developer though.

it seems like the people who are the angriest about destiny micro transactions are people who don't play destiny at all

@lttibbles: Yes, it's true that it can be a losing battle, but I really think it'll take people speaking out and creating an open dialog/conversation about microtransactions to bring it to other people's attention and hopefully start to make that dissent reach the developer/publisher's ears.

I know the game companies will ultimately let the financials make the decision, but it still seems counter-intuitive for people to say "well this is cosmetic stuff so I wish people would just shut up about it; I'll lead the charge should it ever be something I actually care about" (I'm just paraphrasing / using a hypothetical, here). Whether people speak out is their choice but I am not a fan of people telling people outright to not voice their disappointment.

@tajasaurus said:

What about people who don't play Destiny (or no longer play it) because of the game's bad practices and increasingly predatory nature? I played about 50 hours of Destiny but have not gone back because I see the game making the same, and new, mistakes in its design and policies. In fact, it's hurt my overall impression of Bungie as a developer and I'll be hesitant to buy their games in the future unless they prove they're going to be less... sleazy? That might be a bit harsh. I dunno.

Eh, it's only in Warzone as far as I can tell and I've been getting plenty of free bronze packs and buying plenty of Gold packs with RP that I haven't once felt like I needed to buy anything. I average about 2,000-3,000 RP per Warzone match. That's about 3-4 matches to get another Gold pack that will give me plenty enough Req cards for the next 3-4 games. It's a nice cycle so far.

Yea, sure, people can buy more packs right away. So, what? They still need to be the right level in Warzone to be able to summon anything.

I think it's far from P2W. Especially if the person isn't that great at the game. A scorpion is only going to get you so far before someone with an alien pistol shoots the tank and boards you. Or just spawns a spartan laser.

Plus, we get 18 more multiplayer maps for free. That's completely fine with me if people want to buy more REQ packs and fund them. I'll gladly let them give me free maps because I'm not spending a single dime on REQs.

I love that developers and publishers are cool with putting microtransactions into AAA games that some of us have paid upwards for $100 to play already. Especially games like Destiny which had a half assed year one at best. Someone must be paying for all these stupid things or they wouldn't still be doing them and to those people I say, "Go to a REAL FTP game and spend your money there. You're ruining these games for the rest us." Why? Because resources are put into these systems. Resources that SHOULD be put into making the game better. Dances and Masks! Great guys!

@hadestimes: Maybe you didn't read that the alternative was actually charging for more content rather microtransactions and free content. Maybe you should complain less and be happy that's even a choice which can help keep games cheaper overall for the people who can't afford or just don't want to pay for cosmetic junk.

It's the random part that really bothers me about this most recent micro-transaction offering. It just reeks of a free-to-play gambling model. You have X% chance to get the rare item you actually want, but Bungie won't tell you what X is, specifically so that you'll keep buying packs thinking 'well, just one more, I've already spent 10 dollars, what's another five?' At least with the emotes you can just buy what you want, but with the masks that's not an option.

I think the gambling model is gross in free-to-play games, just let me buy what I want, but at least there you didn't pay anything before seeing the pricing model. It's extra gross in Destiny since you've already paid (a lot) to get the game and then they introduce the gambling model after-the-fact.

I know it's all dumb cosmetic stuff, but some people care about that, and they shouldn't have to gamble to get what they want. I personally don't care about the masks and won't spend anything on them, but I do care about models being introduced into games that are designed to exploit people.

@cdub901: It gives a gameplay advantage for money in pvp (however big or small). It's literally the commonly accepted definition of pay to win micro transactions.

I dont understand the problem. The masks have no stats. They're just for fun.

There shouldn't be so much venom in discussions about fun cosmetic masks and there never would be if money wasn't involved. If there were just masks that you could play to unlock in this new update this would be an extremely positive thread. I'm fairly certain of that. Since they want more money, it's filled with heated arguments about the ethics of nickeling and diming certain players.

Be decent, Bungie. Your players will appreciate it and your player base will grow. It's win win.

They're charging for cosmetic stuff and giving away more important story content for free. If you like cosmetic stuff and want to support the game, go ahead and buy something. If not, you're getting everything that's worth a damn for free. You also get some silver (Currency for buying emotes) for free, and one random mask-pack that you can pay for for free.

I don't mind this practice at all, I actually enjoy it.

@spraynardtatum: But you can play to unlock these masks as people have pointed out in the thread the only thing in contention it seems is the flaming skull mask which might/might not be a drop but you could still get from your free mask.

But you can also pay for them. That's the issue. As soon as they ask for more money it taints the whole thing.

Yep. Valve and Microsoft are just two recent examples of enough customers saying "what the fuck is this!?" that had an actual effect on a questionable business practice. It does happen.

As for the last line in your post, full agreement from me. Telling people that they're wrong for voicing their disappointment is a lot like telling people that they're wrong for being offended by something in a game. Of course, the flip side of that is telling people that they're wrong if they DON'T find something offensive, or DON'T find a particular business practice to be unethical. I try to stay away from all of that, rather than telling people how they should think.

But I'm happy to hear how others feel about a given topic, and I'm happy to share my own feelings as well.

@spraynardtatum: I personally disagree, this is just some fun little holiday event for cosmetic items that you can unlock through gameplay alone if people are willing to pay for shortcuts through that experience then that's their business, if these hats meant anything to the gameplay (like say being required to unlock missions/ a raid) then that's a very different matter but they don't, so I don't really see this as scummy as what Overkill did with Payday 2 which I mentioned earlier.

All of these masks drop your light total if equipped. If you aren't buying them, be happy to know some people are so you can have a somewhat advantage if you see them wearing one in pvp, lol.

P2L

Totally. I hope people don't try to sway anyone in either direction, other than to say "express your thoughts on the matter". If it bothers you, feel free to say that it does; if it doesn't, feel free to say that it doesn't; in either case, it's probably not wise to tell people with either opinion that they are wrong and shouldn't speak up, because that's just silly and you will look silly for doing it.

(edited for clarity)

I'll never understand people who get mad at cosmetic items/charging for cosmetic items in games. As long as that shit doesn't hurt the gameplay, I dont give a damn. Pick your fights and save your anger for shit like pre order incentives that lock out actual gameplay content, or micro transactions that actually impact the game.

@yakov456: Most PvP is normalized, so light level doesn't matter.