Raids, 6 people no matchmaking

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#1 Posted by sumjugei (54 posts) -

According to IGNs Endgame article the raids will be a 6 person team and there will not be matchmaking. They will be multi-hour experiences that you will fail repeatedly before beating.

I don't see why matchmaking would hurt the mode. But I also hope that means there are more 6 person fireteam content--explore at least. They should probably incorporate the clans more as well.

This also means I am going to need to bulk up my PS4 friends: SumJuGei or send me a pm and I'll add you.

#2 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3440 posts) -

what?

No matchmaking?

That's impossible.

#3 Edited by MooseyMcMan (11339 posts) -

Huh..........

I better find five friends into this game enough to have end game gear like I will.

Moderator
#4 Edited by syz (252 posts) -

There is nothing on this Earth that would make me spend a challenging, teamwork oriented, multi-hour experience with random, match made people.

For those of you without enough friends to put together a quality raid group, you are simply better off not taking part rather than be put at the mercy of random match making. T'is simply the way of the MMO.

#5 Edited by Hunkulese (2797 posts) -

So I went from casually interested in Destiny, to playing the Alpha for an hour and thinking I'm in 100% on this, to playing the beta for 5 hours and thinking I sure am glad I didn't preorder this, to now thinking the game looks like it'll be awful.

#6 Posted by MB (12788 posts) -

I imagine Bungie is just running out of time and they'll have to work on this later.

Moderator
#7 Edited by Zeik (2575 posts) -

@syz said:

There is nothing on this Earth that would make me spend a challenging, teamwork oriented, multi-hour experience with random, match made people.

For those of you without enough friends to put together a quality raid group, you are simply better off not taking part rather than be put at the mercy of random match making. T'is simply the way of the MMO.

I've done plenty of MMO content with purely matchmade groups. It obviously can be hit or miss, but sometimes that's better than trying to get a full group of players together, and it's certainly a hell of a lot better than not being able to do the content at all. I'd rather fail repeatedly than feel like I can't play content at all.

This won't stop me from getting the game, and perhaps I'll even find a decent group of people to play with, but there's certainly a good chance this could negatively impact my end game enjoyment. It's really one of my least favorite parts of MMOs, trying to gather and manage a big group of people when I just want to jump in and play on my own schedule.

#8 Edited by syz (252 posts) -

@zeik: You won't get to fail repeatedly because at least two people from your random group will rage quit after the first wipe and then you'll get to go replace them.

I'm fairly certain that the notion of random raid groups multiplied by the toxicity of the console shooter community is the actual definition of Hell, and I will gladly stick to the rest of the game should I ever be unable to put together a pre-made group.

#9 Posted by conmulligan (640 posts) -

Huh. Guess I won't be playing Destiny's raids.

#10 Edited by Zeik (2575 posts) -

@syz said:

@zeik: You won't get to fail repeatedly because at least two people from your random group will rage quit after the first wipe and then you'll get to go replace them.

I'm fairly certain that the notion of random raid groups multiplied by the toxicity of the console shooter community is the actual definition of Hell, and I will gladly stick to the rest of the game should I ever be unable to put together a pre-made group.

Well there's no built in chat system, so that would temper the toxicity quite a bit. I don't recall anything that resembled a "toxic" experience throughout the entirety of the alpha or beta. Hopefully that will stay true for the full game. Although to be fair, the most toxic MMO players are almost always end-game.

I suppose it could depend on how much other end-game content there is. Right now we don't know much beyond PvP and Raids, and I don't care much about PvP. If there's other stuff to do it might be fine, but if raiding is where all the meaningful stuff happens then not getting a group together could be real frustrating.

#11 Edited by Lukeweizer (2716 posts) -

Wasn't planning on getting Destiny anyway, and this just makes me feel better about my decision. I don't even have 3 friends to form a Fireteam, let alone 5 that can form a Raid party.

As someone who likes co-op/ multiplayer games, but has no friends who also likes them, I live and die by matchmaking.

#12 Edited by syz (252 posts) -

@zeik said:

@syz said:

@zeik: You won't get to fail repeatedly because at least two people from your random group will rage quit after the first wipe and then you'll get to go replace them.

I'm fairly certain that the notion of random raid groups multiplied by the toxicity of the console shooter community is the actual definition of Hell, and I will gladly stick to the rest of the game should I ever be unable to put together a pre-made group.

Well there's no built in chat system, so that would temper the toxicity quite a bit. I don't recall anything that resembled a "toxic" experience throughout the entirety of the alpha or beta. Hopefully that will stay true for the full game. Although to be fair, the most toxic MMO players are almost always end-game.

I suppose it could depend on how much other end-game content there is. Right now we don't know much beyond PvP and Raids, and I don't care much about PvP. If there's other stuff to do it might be fine, but if raiding is where all the meaningful stuff happens then not getting a group together could be real frustrating.

If they've designed their raids properly I can't envision a way to succeed in them without voice interaction, which I'll suggest has the potential to be a little bit worse than reading text.

Let's be honest, you have 2254 posts and counting on a popular video game forum. You should probably be able to find a group for such a popular game without having to risk being thrown into a random group with x420Cronic420x by a matchmaking system.

#13 Posted by Zeik (2575 posts) -

@syz: If voice chat is required that might be enough to turn me off right there, because I've never liked using voice chat. I've never found that to be a requirement in MMOs though, if you know what you're doing ahead of time.

And while you're probably right that I could find people to play with if I really wanted, that's not the only problem. The bigger problem is that I don't like gaming on other people's schedules and all the obligations that accompany that. It often turns a relaxing game session into a chore.

#14 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3440 posts) -

@syz said:

There is nothing on this Earth that would make me spend a challenging, teamwork oriented, multi-hour experience with random, match made people.

For those of you without enough friends to put together a quality raid group, you are simply better off not taking part rather than be put at the mercy of random match making. T'is simply the way of the MMO.

Doing the Strike in the Beta/Alpha was perfectly fine with randos, and on bad runs that's a 2 hour battle to the death(s).

@zeik: did you play the Beta or Alpha? Even when you're on a fireteam (match made for the Strike) there was no voice chat unless you joined a PSN party. And it worked pretty well! Bungie must feel that the Raids *require* voice..? Still feels like a bizarre choice to me.

#15 Edited by syz (252 posts) -

Quality raid content that could be accomplished with zero communication would be surprising no matter what genre we're discussing.

It's a console game, so you're not getting a chat box. What else is left besides voice chat?

Unless they're just planning on making their raids longer strikes, which would be the first reasonably disappointing possibility. If it's challenging and intricate--as raid content should be--you aren't going to get through it silently.

#16 Edited by Zeik (2575 posts) -

(Guess it didn't eat my post after all. Whoops.)

#17 Posted by ArtelinaRose (1856 posts) -

The concept excites me. I don't have people to play with, but that's easily fixable so long as you do a little bit of networking and why wouldn't you when you're on a website like this one already? GB always has been getting together to do dumb/cool stuff together and I am excited to get some high end content done with some duders.

#18 Posted by shatteringlast (229 posts) -

Personally, I'm totally down with this idea. It will splinter the community, sure, but I think it'll be in a way that is beneficial. This way, it'll make raids slightly more exclusive, and make exotic gear truly more exotic. I don't want any regular Joe or Jane running around with some world beater of a weapon.

ALSO the whole no-matchmaking thing is totally fine with me... we have the Lincoln Force group to join. Plenty of players in that pool to play with. And even if not that pool, there will be countless groups available.

#19 Edited by Zeik (2575 posts) -

(GB seems to be eating up my posts a lot today.)

@syz said:

Quality raid content that could be accomplished with zero communication would be surprising no matter what genre we're discussing.

It's a console game, so you're not getting a chat box. What else is left besides voice chat?

Unless they're just planning on making their raids longer strikes, which would be the first reasonably disappointing possibility. If it's challenging and intricate--as raid content should be--you aren't going to get through it silently.

I've heard plenty of people claim over the years in various MMOs say the exact same thing, and I've never found it to be true. If everyone knows what they're doing in advance then I've never found mid-battle communication a necessity. More often than not it simply provides a means for people to yell at eachother if something goes wrong.

And frankly, I really can't imagine any scenario in Destiny that would require more intricate strategies than your average MMO. There's no holy trinity and every class is pretty much self-sufficient. There will be no relying on tanks or healers to do their part to keep the team alive, there's no CC or debuffs, and I can't imagine they will have random events that wouldn't be able to prepare for in advance. I'm relatively certain it will largely come down to individual players playing well more than anything else.

#20 Edited by Zeik (2575 posts) -

Personally, I'm totally down with this idea. It will splinter the community, sure, but I think it'll be in a way that is beneficial. This way, it'll make raids slightly more exclusive, and make exotic gear truly more exotic. I don't want any regular Joe or Jane running around with some world beater of a weapon.

ALSO the whole no-matchmaking thing is totally fine with me... we have the Lincoln Force group to join. Plenty of players in that pool to play with. And even if not that pool, there will be countless groups available.

I suppose one important thing to keep in mind is that there are no usual MMO servers to splinter the community. It was the reason why I never joined the GB guild for FFXIV, because they were on a different server.

#21 Posted by DoctorDonkey (349 posts) -

No matchmaking? Assemble the LINCOLN FORCE!

#22 Posted by sumjugei (54 posts) -

@doctordonkey: If they give us the back end to make the clan useful, I am all for it. But it didnt seem to help me connect with GB, it was just something else on my banner

#23 Posted by ll_Exile_ll (1823 posts) -

If only we were all part of some sort of video game oriented community where we could easily find like minded individuals to play with... oh, wait.

Seriously, if the prospect of playing for an hour with randoms and having one or two quit and force an entire restart is something that sounds appealing then maybe I can understand why someone would be upset at the lack of matchmaking, otherwise I think it's totally better off without it.

@zeik said:

(GB seems to be eating up my posts a lot today.)

I've heard plenty of people claim over the years in various MMOs say the exact same thing, and I've never found it to be true. If everyone knows what they're doing in advance then I've never found mid-battle communication a necessity. More often than not it simply provides a means for people to yell at eachother if something goes wrong.

And frankly, I really can't imagine any scenario in Destiny that would require more intricate strategies than your average MMO. There's no holy trinity and every class is pretty much self-sufficient. There will be no relying on tanks or healers to do their part to keep the team alive, there's no CC or debuffs, and I can't imagine they will have random events that wouldn't be able to prepare for in advance. I'm relatively certain it will largely come down to individual players playing well more than anything else.

There is absolutely the concept of healing and buffing. Each class has a support oriented subclass that will no doubt become vital in raids.

#24 Edited by Zeik (2575 posts) -

@ll_exile_ll: If you watch that recent IGN video where they talk about raids they explicitly state those roles do not exist (in the traditional MMO sense) and will not be required for raids. There are specs that let you function in similar ways to those roles, but assuming they are telling the truth you should never have to search out a Defender Titan or Sunsinger Warlock.

#25 Posted by ll_Exile_ll (1823 posts) -

@zeik said:

@ll_exile_ll: If you watch that recent IGN video where they talk about raids they explicitly state those roles do not exist and will not be required for raids. There are specs that let you function in similar ways to those roles, but assuming they are telling the truth you should never have to search out a Defender Titan or Sunsinger Warlock.

They said they aren't designed around the healer, tank, DPS trinity, since everyone will have guns and be dealing damage, but it is made clear that everyone will have a role to play. They've made a big point that these raids are going to be incredibly difficult, so it stands to reason party makeup and role distribution is still going to be a factor. It's hard to know to what extent that stuff will matter without have played these missions yet, but I think assuming it won't matter at all is a bit premature, and you'd have to imagine having some support oriented classes would be important.

#26 Posted by Zeik (2575 posts) -

@ll_exile_ll: I'm sure they will be important in the sense that every player will need to play their class to the fullest to succeed, but I feel like they made it quite clear that you should not have to search out specific classes and specs to succeed. I don't doubt that certain class combos will do better than others, but it shouldn't end up like an MMO where it's literally impossible if you don't have a tank tanking the boss and a healer keeping your group alive.

#27 Posted by tourgen (4542 posts) -

I don't know. The more this game is described as a MMO-shooter-lite the less interested I am. Kind of done with instanced MMOs and gear grinding. Actually 100% done. Cool for the new kids though coming up and wanting to play a decent online grinder.

#28 Posted by Wiseman4545 (17 posts) -

@tourgen said:

I don't know. The more this game is described as a MMO-shooter-lite the less interested I am. Kind of done with instanced MMOs and gear grinding. Actually 100% done. Cool for the new kids though coming up and wanting to play a decent online grinder.

I think I'm the exact opposite. The loot and MMO aspects are kind of the only reason I care about this game. I'm pretty sure I would have literally no interest in this game if it was just another Halo-style shooter.

#29 Posted by Beb (256 posts) -

I would rather try and fail with a match-made team of randoms than have to go looking on internet forums to make play dates with randoms. Maybe if I was a teen or in college that would make sense, but the older I get, the less I can tolerate the overhead of getting people together at the same time. If I "have" to play on tuesday at 6pm the game becomes a job.

I just want to push a button and start. There is no reason to withhold this from me. Even DOTA allows solo queuing.

Online
#30 Posted by pweidman (2342 posts) -

Perhaps, just perhaps, by the time you'll be running endgame raids you will have completed innumerable strikes that will be match made and in due course you will make and add some friends who will then be into the late game raids too, and they will have friends as well that they know and trust to play in concert during a difficult and challenging scenario. Just a thought. ;-)

#31 Posted by Beb (256 posts) -

@pweidman said:

Perhaps, just perhaps, by the time you'll be running endgame raids you will have completed innumerable strikes that will be match made and in due course you will make and add some friends who will then be into the late game raids too, and they will have friends as well that they know and trust to play in concert during a difficult and challenging scenario. Just a thought. ;-)

I don't see how that is equivalent to being able to insta-queue for a game.

[Duder] Hey, you want to do the raid? We need 4 more.

[RandoA] Yeah. Me and my friend can play.

[Duder] Ok, two more then...

[RandoA] My buddy will get his brother on...he just needs to take out the garbage...

[30 mins later]

[Duder] Ok, we just need one more...

All of this through the PSN friends list too.

Online
#32 Posted by pweidman (2342 posts) -

@beb: Never said it'd be an equivalent. If matchmaking is indeed unavailable how else will things get arranged?

Besides, almost no one will wanna play these raids w/randoms I'm guessing. Planning for raids in an MMOFPS, who does that?

#33 Posted by MB (12788 posts) -

Is chat just not finished yet? Anyone know what's going on with that?

Moderator
#34 Posted by syz (252 posts) -
#35 Edited by ll_Exile_ll (1823 posts) -

@mb said:

Is chat just not finished yet? Anyone know what's going on with that?

Voice chat only works in fireteams. You can always chat with everyone in your squad, but never with random matchmade people. So, if you go into competitive matchmaking with a full party of 6 you will be able to chat with your entire team, if you go in solo you won't be able to chat with anyone. In the case of things like matchmaking strikes, if you want to talk with the people you're matched with you have to invite them to your fireteam.

#36 Posted by iceman228433 (616 posts) -

How are you supposed to have a six man raid with no Matchmaking and no communication because as far as I can tell that game has no on talking to each other at all.

#37 Edited by BigDaddy81 (330 posts) -

Man, you guys are all a bunch of friendless NNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDS!!!!

I'm looking forward to these raids and hope there's more stuff for 6-player Fire Teams.

#38 Posted by slyspider (1305 posts) -

@syz said:

There is nothing on this Earth that would make me spend a challenging, teamwork oriented, multi-hour experience with random, match made people.

For those of you without enough friends to put together a quality raid group, you are simply better off not taking part rather than be put at the mercy of random match making. T'is simply the way of the MMO.

*Glances at WoW's raid finder* Yup.

I don't play console games but not having a matchmaking seems stupid

Online
#39 Edited by syz (252 posts) -

@mb: Bungie's response is that the way chat functioned in the beta (only in Fireteams) was that they wanted to encourage "positive communication" among players.

Which is code for "we realize our community is full of dicks and you should probably only ever talk to your friends."

#40 Posted by Corevi (4046 posts) -
Online
#41 Posted by Mister_V (1381 posts) -

Well, shit.

I liked the fact this game has MMO elements in it but I didn't want it to be this much of an MMO.

Lincoln force EU better step up and get shit done. Or I'm probably never playing those missions.

#42 Edited by Corvak (1128 posts) -

I have friends. But they own a smattering of console platforms and aren't going to own Destiny on the same system or generation at launch.

I don't know if I want to spend 'multi-hours' repeating set piece shooter gameplay, though. MMOs at least have the decency to not make you slog through trash mobs every time to make attempts on a boss. Destiny doesn't seem to do that, and often regenerates entire rooms of enemies when you fail an instanced area.

#43 Posted by Tennmuerti (8152 posts) -

I am sorry but the toolset of abilities in Destiny is nowhere near your average good MMO nor is there a massive amount of necessity for said toolset application (timed and otherwise). There are no super complicated mechanics at play. Additionally guess what 6 people aint a raid, that's a pickup group. This kind of stuff is more then doable with random strangers, always has been.

@zeik Is completely right here. This it's ridiculous not to have matchmaking.

#44 Posted by syz (252 posts) -

@corvak: They could get rid of the trash mobs but then you'd have no source of bullets. Hope you like melee!

#45 Posted by Jesus_Phish (1019 posts) -

I'll gladly take organising a group to go play the raid missions over matchmaking. Even in the beta with matchmaking on both pvp and the strikes I lost count of how many times people either quit out or just sat afk.

#46 Edited by SomeJerk (3320 posts) -

Yes, how dare they not allow matchmaking with random pubbie players for raids that require precise timing, knowledge of what is going on, intelligent, a high set of skills in shooting and movement, switching weapons, shame on them, pre-order cancelled!

You guys don't know what the raid looks like and what it requires. There are plenty of strikes for you to wipe in with afk teammates, teammates made up out of five year olds who don't know how to do anything, and worse.

Bungie knows. But I wish they had random matchmaking in for raids just so that you people could learn how stupid of an idea it is for the raid and what it contains, which is something that actually requires hours to finish even when you know how it works.

#47 Posted by Mister_V (1381 posts) -

@somejerk: What? It's a six player game, your not organising 40 people. You run around, shoot people and use your one skill. It's hardly going to be on the level of wow.

#48 Posted by Lyisa (375 posts) -

Borderlands 2 had raid bosses that were relatively short and didn't have a whole lot to clear to get to them, but not really full on raids that took hours to complete.

I'm just curious, is the only thing stopping this from being an MMO the fact that you can't openly communicate with other players? Everything about it so far reminds me of a fps version of Neverwinter.

#49 Posted by Bollard (5694 posts) -

@mister_v said:

Well, shit.

I liked the fact this game has MMO elements in it but I didn't want it to be this much of an MMO.

Lincoln force EU better step up and get shit done. Or I'm probably never playing those missions.

I'm sure Lincoln Force EU will pull through. Last Lincoln Force named guild I was in was for GW2, and it was great.

#50 Posted by Fattony12000 (7550 posts) -

I wish there was an LFG thing/lobby/emote/message that you could employ whilst in the Tower to help you find some peeps to raid with.

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