Built Like It Was 1999

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#51 Posted by mordukai (7149 posts) -

@Seppli: Because it's ironic. You defended KOA with such ferocity even when people had some legitimate criticism. Now you are doing the same thing but from the other side. Maybe your problem is that you you expected something else coming in but when you got not quite what you you expected then now it's you who can't see pass the limitations and the faults. I am not saying your points aren't valid but I think the problem you have with the game is not with the game but with you.

#52 Posted by Sackmanjones (4682 posts) -

I didn't ask for you to play the game…

#53 Edited by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -

@Seppli said:

To put it more eloquently...

A city is a city, and not a Deus Ex level. By turning a city into a Deus Ex level, a city stops being a city.

A videogame city, that is no longer a city, is a laughably bad videogame city, because it misses its point entirely - even if it is a good Deus Ex level. Either you seperate the Deus Ex level from the city; or you change Deus Ex so its gameplay works in context with a city.

In 1999, building videogame cities, that were levels, but not cities, was cool. It's no longer cool anymore.

You are wrong. What you want is a different game. The narrow, confined and intertwined spaces is the essence of a Deus Ex game. The world building is great in this game (unfortunately, it lacks a great story).

I suggest you go back to playing Kingdoms of Average: Boring.

#54 Posted by Toxeia (729 posts) -

@Seppli said:

Though really, he's more of an all-star all-round cripple rather than a god - on an epic RPG-struggle to uncripple himself ...

Best premise for a game ever.

#55 Posted by believer258 (11775 posts) -

@Seppli said:

I knew it going in, this will be a decent Deus Ex game...

  • Don't you love these mega cities condensed into a block or two? Such wierd anorganic and unnatural spaces. A place where a regular hallway might be electrified. Where climbing into a manhole and emerging elsewhere from the sewers might be the only way to enter some backalley. A place were cars do exist, but do not drive. Where city planers were obviously madmen, building a maze more fit for testing lab rats, rather than a place for living.
  • Don't you love silly gamey things, like a box of ammo carrying a single bullet? Or sold in stores 5 shots in a pack?

I personally wasn't a big fan of the game, but I don't see either of these as problems. For that matter, I think you're being pretty harsh on the game. 'Course, you have that right but... still...

#56 Posted by believer258 (11775 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

Haha, the people who criticize the character movement/animations, VOICE ACTING and gunplay in a Deus Ex game... This game is as good as G-A-M-E-S get, it allows so much gameplay possibilities and freedom that it would implode your mind.
But nooo, we're too stupid to remember that games are about the GAMING, they're supposed to be movies now.

I played Human Revolution earlier this year, took me 33 hours to finish, and I was stunned from start to finish. The things I DID in that game, dear god, so satisfying and fun. Not what I watched or heard, what it allowed me to DO, it's a fucking interactive video game.


Here's the greatest moment from my playthrough:
There's an office across the yard from me, two guards, one on the roof of the office, the other walking back and forth in front of it. And there's a surveillance camera right in the middle of the yard.
I came from the right side as the bottom arrow shows, PICKED UP the dumpster and created cover from it
Now that I'm hiding behind the cover I CREATED, I waited for a moment where the guard would be the closest to me while the CAMERA was pointing the other way.
When that moment came, I shot the guard with my tranquilizer dart, he fell to the floor AS I JUMPED OUT and ran towards him, but I noticed the camera was a split second away from detecting the body, so I quickly pulled out my stun gun and shot it, temporarily disabling it.
I dragged the body away, paused a moment so the guard on the roof doesnt see me, he turned away and I kept dragging the body, and JUST when I got out of the camera's field of view, it came online again.

This is only one of the hundreds of pure brilliant moments of real interactive challenging gameplay where the game's assets and mechanics allow you to create your own unique scenarios.


Meanwhile, I talked to AI in Mass Effect 3 til hair grew on my tongue, I watched probably thee best dramatic cutscenes I've ever seen in a video game, some of the most memorable voice acting as well, and I took cover behind immobile blocks, freeze-sniping hordes of lunging aliens like a boss as I ordered my squad mates to move and attack as I saw fit. That, was fun. The movie parts were entertaining and emotional, the game parts were repetitive and "fun", but compared to what I, the player, did in Human Revolution, well, there's no comparison. ME3 is an infant compared to the gameplay mammoth that is HR.

Dammit, you made me want to go play the game again despite not being a big fan of it.

Regardless of what I did and did not like:

Haha, the people who criticize the character movement/animations, VOICE ACTING and gunplay in a Deus Ex game... This game is as good as G-A-M-E-S get, it allows so much gameplay possibilities and freedom that it would implode your mind.
But nooo, we're too stupid to remember that games are about the GAMING, they're supposed to be movies now.

There aren't enough people with this attitude towards games these days. They're not fucking movies, they're fucking games. I remember days when you could go "Bad story? Ah, well" and still justify giving it a 10/10.

#57 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@BisonHero said:

@Seppli: I still don't get what you expect the city portions to look like. You were fine with the "enemy base" sort of areas, but found the city areas too unbelievable - I'm pretty sure that's your position, and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. But taking the premise of Deus Ex: HR, what do you expect the "NPC hub area where there are no hostile enemies" to look like? It's not a fantastical fantasy or sci-fi game where you can just gin up an environment that is conveniently sized for what you need. Deus Ex: Invisible War had truly horrendous "city" areas that felt an order of magnitude more confined, artificial, and nonsensical than Deus Ex or Deus Ex: HR. How do you think HR should've handled the city areas then?

L.A. Noire or No More Heroes, where the street layout is fairly faithful to what real cities look like, but there's almost nothing to do?

The Darkness or Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, with city blocks that are laid out slightly more sensibly than Deus Ex: HR, but still exist to house about 4-6 important NPCs, and it's still mostly wasted space where nothing happens and you waste a bunch of time running from NPC to NPC in a realistically sized city block?

You keep saying that it's 2012 and the bar has been raised, but has it? What games have raised the bar? What are you comparing Deus Ex: HR against? The only thing you've said on the matter seems to be "What was the last Rockstar game you've played?", which doesn't fit with your emphasis that you're fine with Deus Ex not being open world.

It's the 'WTF is this!' factor, that's just way too high. Like it's 1999. There's a fucking crawlspace near the basketball court in Detroit, which acts as a 'street'. Why isn't it just a fucking street or an underpass? Is there a point in building this condensed abomination of a city so... abomination-y?

There's a million and one games which simply don't do a city, if they cannot do it properly. They do levels and loading screens. There's your solution. Then your upper crust appartment complex won't stand next to the anti-aug gang's territory and it won't be connected via a crawlspace to 'that other area' - and act like crouchwalking is legitimate form of urban transportation. When was the last time you opened a manhole and walked the sewers just to get to a regular ass backalley?

I am fine with gameplay contrivances in a 'level' like the secret FEMA facility. If that silly anti-aug gang occupied portion of the city wasn't right next to the uppity appartment complex, but rather 'somewhere else' - beyond a loading screen commute - I'd be okay with it. As a seperate level I'm okay with it, not as part of 'the condensed city of Detroit'.

@mordukai said:

@Seppli: Because it's ironic. You defended KOA with such ferocity even when people had some legitimate criticism. Now you are doing the same thing but from the other side. Maybe your problem is that you you expected something else coming in but when you got not quite what you you expected then now it's you who can't see pass the limitations and the faults. I am not saying your points aren't valid but I think the problem you have with the game is not with the game but with you.

Dude. I enjoy the fucking game. Quite a lot in fact. That does not invalidate my points. The shit I mention is contrived as all hell. And it's exactly what I expected. If you read the OP at all, reading comprehension would show that I AM SURPRISED at how lacking I find the game, despite my past fondness for Deus Ex. I admit that it's a good Deus Ex game.

It's ironic that a discussion seems to be regarded as 'fact denying'. I have one perspective on facts, you have another. We don't dispute facts. We dispute opinions based upon facts. It's a fact that Deus Ex' Detroit is a twisted abomination. It's my opinion that that's laughable and outdated in this day and age. It's other people's opinion that it is perfectly okay and no point of contention. Doesn't change the fact that it's a bizzare contrived place and does not succeed in being the city of Detroit.

#58 Posted by Morrow (1829 posts) -

I haven't played much of it yet but I LOVE Adam Jensen (obviously, he's my avatar) and one of the reasons is his voice. I know some people don't like it because they think it sounds overacted and therefore ridiculous, but I have to admit it sends shivers down below everytime he speaks...

Unfortunately, I totally suck at stealth games.

#59 Posted by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@CptBedlam said:

@Seppli said:

To put it more eloquently...

A city is a city, and not a Deus Ex level. By turning a city into a Deus Ex level, a city stops being a city.

A videogame city, that is no longer a city, is a laughably bad videogame city, because it misses its point entirely - even if it is a good Deus Ex level. Either you seperate the Deus Ex level from the city; or you change Deus Ex so its gameplay works in context with a city.

In 1999, building videogame cities, that were levels, but not cities, was cool. It's no longer cool anymore.

You are wrong. What you want is a different game. The narrow, confined and intertwined spaces is the essence of a Deus Ex game. The world building is great in this game (unfortunately, it lacks a great story).

I suggest you go back to playing Kingdoms of Average: Boring.

The world building of Deus Ex : Human Revolution is great measured by the standard of the original Deus Ex? Did I say anything to the contrary?

I suggest you lay off the mud-flinging. I like KoA:R. I'm not alone in that. Sue me.

#60 Posted by BisonHero (6398 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@Seppli said:

I knew it going in, this will be a decent Deus Ex game...

  • Don't you love these mega cities condensed into a block or two? Such wierd anorganic and unnatural spaces. A place where a regular hallway might be electrified. Where climbing into a manhole and emerging elsewhere from the sewers might be the only way to enter some backalley. A place were cars do exist, but do not drive. Where city planers were obviously madmen, building a maze more fit for testing lab rats, rather than a place for living.
  • Don't you love silly gamey things, like a box of ammo carrying a single bullet? Or sold in stores 5 shots in a pack?

I personally wasn't a big fan of the game, but I don't see either of these as problems. For that matter, I think you're being pretty harsh on the game. 'Course, you have that right but... still...

Yeah, he's acting like games have moved beyond condensing cities down to a block or two, as if Deus Ex: HR is some relic from a decade ago, yet he's failed to give any example of a game that has solved that problem. The only games that can afford to offer a more believable city environment are the games that have the budget to make a full blown open world game. And I wouldn't want that for Deus Ex, because the missions are generally a joke in open world games since it takes almost no effort to make a mockery of the scripting. The only time that doesn't happen is when the missions let you into buildings that then constrain where you go and allow for scripted moments, which leads to the situation where most of the missions don't even happen in the open world so what was the point of going to so much effort to make it?

I would've loved if Deus Ex: HR was able to move gaming forward in the same way that the first Deus Ex was a step forward at the time, but sadly HR does hue fairly closely to the formula of Deus Ex 1, which is to say, it hues closely the current formula of how non-open-world games still handle city environments. It's a perfectly enjoyable game, and I don't see how Seppli thinks it comes off as dated.

#61 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@BisonHero:

But I did offer a solution. TO NOT DO IT.

The 'open world city' aspect of DE:HR's cities adds nothing. Certainly not a sense of a believable lived-in place. It's an overblown Deus Ex level trying to pass for a city. There are games out there that succeed in passing for a city. That wasn't the case when Deus Ex first came out. GTA 3 happend in 2001. A tonne of open world games happend since then, some succeeding to an eerily degree in creating a believable living city.

In the context of well-executed videogame cities, doing it badly reflects poorly on your production. Hence - DON'T DO IT. You'll be more successful in creating a sense of place surrounding seperate levels with smartly produced high quality SMOKE AND MIRRORS. I prefer ILLUSION OVER GROTESQUE.

#62 Posted by mordukai (7149 posts) -

@Seppli said:

Dude. I enjoy the fucking game. Quite a lot in fact. That does not invalidate my points. The shit I mention is contrived as all hell. And it's exactly what I expected. If you read the OP at all, reading comprehension would show that I AM SURPRISED at how lacking I find the game, despite my past fondness for Deus Ex. I admit that it's a good Deus Ex game.

It's ironic that a discussion seems to be regarded as 'fact denying'. I've a perspective on facts, you have another. We don't dispute facts. We dispute opinions based upon facts. It's a fact that Deus Ex' Detroit is a twisted abomination. It's my opinion that that's laughable and outdated in this day and age. It's other people's opinion that it is perfectly okay and no point of contention. Doesn't change the fact that it's a bizzare contrived place and does not succeed in being the city of Detroit.

Before we get into this big argument I have to know. Are you really critiquing a fictionalized Detroit set 15 years in the future.

#63 Posted by Vitor (2815 posts) -

@TentPole said:

@Vitor said:

@TentPole said:

Find me a game you can't nit pick with a magnifying glass that big.

Don't get me wrong the game has got problems... but they aren't the ones on your list.

No, those criticisms are entirely valid. Whether or not they break the game as they did for OP, that is what's up for debate.

I hated the fact that power cells only partially regenerated. But, if they did fully, it would have broken the game (especially with stealth). To me, it seems like a poor solution to a fundamental issue at the heart of the game.

And the level design was bizarre. The worlds felt stale. Pedestrians didn't walk anywhere, just stood rooted to the spot having the same conversation over and over again and no cars flew by. It felt clinical and lifeless. The world looked the part but only on a surface level

I still very much enjoyed the game but it was definitely lacking in some basic elements.

Those are problems that all games have. All games have arbitrary design decisions for gameplay. Arkham City has meter for extra powerful melee attacks. Is that bad design? How many games have meters that control extremely powerful attacks? Your other complaint just comes down to the fact that it is not an open world sandbox game.

Not quite. Arkham's take is a far more elegant solution to the similar problem. Having cooldowns on abilities would have worked better than the system they ended up implementing in Deus Ex.

As for making worlds feel alive - I'll point you at countless linear games that did a better job. Hell, the Ratchet and Clank games on PS2 had worlds that felt more alive. Having NPCs and vehicles rooted to the spot was bad design and seriously detracted from any sense of a living, breathing world.

#64 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -
@mordukai said:

@Seppli said:

Dude. I enjoy the fucking game. Quite a lot in fact. That does not invalidate my points. The shit I mention is contrived as all hell. And it's exactly what I expected. If you read the OP at all, reading comprehension would show that I AM SURPRISED at how lacking I find the game, despite my past fondness for Deus Ex. I admit that it's a good Deus Ex game.

It's ironic that a discussion seems to be regarded as 'fact denying'. I've a perspective on facts, you have another. We don't dispute facts. We dispute opinions based upon facts. It's a fact that Deus Ex' Detroit is a twisted abomination. It's my opinion that that's laughable and outdated in this day and age. It's other people's opinion that it is perfectly okay and no point of contention. Doesn't change the fact that it's a bizzare contrived place and does not succeed in being the city of Detroit.

Before we get into this big argument I have to know. Are you really critiquing a fictionalized Detroit set 15 years in the future.

I argue cities will always be built to accommodate traffic. Movement. Getting people from point A to B. With some common sense. Without the need to crouchwalk through a crawlspace or climbing down manholes.
 
Hell - in Hengsha, there's cement blocks in the middle of the street. Across the entirety of it. At several places. For no apparant reason. You jump over them. And that's that. That's Hengsha for you. They're there, and they're GROTESQUE.
#65 Posted by valrog (3671 posts) -

Seppli and his double standards strike again. Needless to say, it will be amusing to read all of this.

#66 Posted by mordukai (7149 posts) -

@Seppli: I bet Blade Runner annoys you to no end then.

and...Can't YOU go ONE post WITHOUT capitalizing EVERY word YOU think IS making YOUR point. Seriously man. It fucking annoying.

#67 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

Hi,

Stop making topics.

Thanks,

The Giant Bomb Userbase

#68 Posted by Tesla (1917 posts) -

OP lives in a fantasy land where open world level design should just be as big and varied as real cities because there are no hardware constraints to consider.

#69 Posted by NTM (7320 posts) -

I think you're just yearning for a time when games can become more realistic, so it can immerse you into a fictional world, and you're probably coming to the realization, or just now making the point that most games don't do that yet. I agree, but as games go right now, those aren't really my problem with that game. I really enjoy Deus Ex: Human Revolution, the biggest problems with the game from a realistic technical stand-point, is the voice acting, the out-dated character animations from a facial to overall body movements, and lack of variety in colors. I think, or at least hope next gen consoles will bring what you're asking for, but as of right now, you're asking for too much unfortunately.

#70 Posted by xyzygy (9935 posts) -

I couldn't get into the first game because I found it terribly slow. I fucking loved Invisible War and Human Revolution though.

#71 Edited by Tennmuerti (8059 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@BisonHero:

But I did offer a solution. TO NOT DO IT.

Don't do it, is not an actual sollution to a core game design problem. :)

The 'open world city' aspect of DE:HR's cities adds nothing. Certainly not a sense of a believable lived-in place. It's an overblown Deus Ex level trying to pass for a city. There are games out there that succeed in passing for a city. That wasn't the case when Deus Ex first came out. GTA 3 happend in 2001. A tonne of open world games happend since then, some succeeding to an eerily degree in creating a believable living city.

There is no "open world city" what is this fantasy you have concocted in your head? Detroit and Hengsha are simple hub areas, tiny portions of the cities, there is no open world. It seems Bisonhero pretty much nailed it, you came in excpecting an open world which is not what this game is about. It's strenghts lie in other areas rather just a lot of pointless meaningless geometry of an open world game.

No preview/review ever mentioned this game having anything to do with open world games. There was even a leaked demo which pretty much anyone who wanted to could play. Nor did the marketing or developers try to sell people on some "open world city aspect". It is a different type of game. A stealth/shooter/rpg hybrid with levels to go through alternate paths to find, aproaches to take, tactics to try, choices to make, consequences to experience, talk with people. At this point you are seriously criticizing this game for being something it never tried to be and yet something that you built up for yourself before playing it. Development time money and resources are not infinite it is a game that sets out to do entirely different goals. One of the most important being is to honour the original.

I argue cities will always be built to accommodate traffic. Movement. Getting people from point A to B. With some common sense. Without the need to crouchwalk through a crawlspace or climbing down manholes.

Hell - in Hengsha, there's cement blocks in the middle of the street. Across the entirety of it. At several places. For no apparant reason. You jump over them. And that's that. That's Hengsha for you. They're there, and they're GROTESQUE.

There are 2 major roads in the Detroit hub as well as a metro station. Most of the living buildings have front entrances you can walk through. There are only 1 or 2 habitable places that requre non standard traversal.

A. Hengsha is a lower city slum. B. It's bacsically a ghetto in an overcrowded city, have you seen Brazil favelas or certain shitty parts of Tokyo, some major Chinese cities, overcrowded ghettos in India? C. It's cyberpunk, cities become more crowded and less navigatable with architechture being build almost on top of each other. This is inherent to the setting. I'm talking about difficulty in navigation not the blocks here.

The concrete blocks are fucking weird ill give you that. But then so is all chest high indestructible conviniently positioned cover in every TPS game ever.

EDIT: (actually now that i think about it plenty of cities have areas walled in certain ways (sometimes with just concrete blocks yes). Especially when certain roads are converted on purpose to be only usable by foot traffic, the obstacles are there on purpose to prevent cars. i've seen this a lot especially in tourist areas)

#72 Posted by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -

@Napalm said:

Hi,

Stop making topics.

Thanks,

The Giant Bomb Userbase

signed

#73 Edited by BisonHero (6398 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@BisonHero:

But I did offer a solution. TO NOT DO IT.

The 'open world city' aspect of DE:HR's cities adds nothing. Certainly not a sense of a believable lived-in place. It's an overblown Deus Ex level trying to pass for a city. There are games out there that succeed in passing for a city. That wasn't the case when Deus Ex first came out. GTA 3 happend in 2001. A tonne of open world games happend since then, some succeeding to an eerily degree in creating a believable living city.

In the context of well-executed videogame cities, doing it badly reflects poorly on your production. Hence - DON'T DO IT. You'll be more successful in creating a sense of place surrounding seperate levels with smartly produced high quality SMOKE AND MIRRORS. I prefer ILLUSION OVER GROTESQUE.

I'm glad you made this post, because at least we've finally boiled down your point. You're looking for something like Max Payne 2, where you run about New York City, but each level always starts just after you've hopped a chainlink fence and are now just about to enter an enemy's warehouse, conveniently cut off from actual city streets. That's fine sometimes, but not all the time.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think a developer should give up on having a city environment just because they can't do it is big and bold as GTA/Saints Row/Infamous/Assassin's Creed. For this issue, I don't agree with the "go big or go home" mentality. I'm perfectly fine with games like Deus Ex occupying a middle ground where there's a portion of a city block, but for game design reasons it isn't designed in an entirely logical fashion. Unfortunately, nobody has really improved on that middle ground since Deus Ex 1, and instead most developers have apparently either gone open world, or have taken your advice and completely given up on a city and instead just dump the player from building to building, never letting them run openly on the streets.

I admit the crawlspace in Detroit is weird, but if it bothers you so much, there's also a subway station hallway that connects the Sarif Industries area to the Police Station/Jensen's Apartment area. Yeah, the cinderblocks in Hengsha are weird, but maybe they're there as a temporary solution because some new bylaw has made that street for pedestrians only and they don't want vehicles or bicycles on it. Yeah, the apartment buildings are wildly inefficient when each floor only has like 2-3 apartments, but that sort of problem has plagued 99% of video games ever made.

If you pay that much attention to details that small, most games look ridiculous. Does that really bother you on a regular basis? If it does, then that must ruin literally every town and city in every non-open-world video game, from Mass Effect's Citadel to BioShock's Rapture. I guess if you're a city planner by profession then perhaps you're extra sensitive to how illogical city layouts are in video games, but most people have the capacity to suspend disbelief, especially in light of all the other ways that Deus Ex's Detroit and Hengsha are evocative of the state of their fictional world.

#74 Posted by Tennmuerti (8059 posts) -

Seriously how can one immerse themselves in a fantasy setting when major cities in the world only have a handfull of common buildings almost no living space for the population, no sanitary facilities like latrines, etc etc. I'm talking about KoAR here by the way :). Even Skyrim the pinaccle of open world RPGs has "major"cities consisting of nothing but half a dozen buildings, they are tiny. And GTA/Saints Row/Infamous and all their ilk, eeeew, the cities are nothing but a huge level filled with useless lifeless geometry that you can't actually ineract with, filled with copy paste NPCs that serve no real porpose but to be mobile polygons for you to abuse, when i look at them it is instantly hitting me over the head just how pointless, artificial and mechanical all of it is.

#75 Posted by pornstorestiffi (4909 posts) -

I think you have forgotten what games where like in 1999.

#76 Posted by Marz (5648 posts) -

there aren't many games that have level design like deus ex games(only Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines comes to mind when i think of similar games), i think eidos montreal pulled off a solid homage to the original game..  sure it wasn't as mind blowing as the original but they could have easily shoveled another third person action game in your face for the millionth time.

#77 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -
@BisonHero said:

@Seppli said:

@BisonHero:

But I did offer a solution. TO NOT DO IT.

The 'open world city' aspect of DE:HR's cities adds nothing. Certainly not a sense of a believable lived-in place. It's an overblown Deus Ex level trying to pass for a city. There are games out there that succeed in passing for a city. That wasn't the case when Deus Ex first came out. GTA 3 happend in 2001. A tonne of open world games happend since then, some succeeding to an eerily degree in creating a believable living city.

In the context of well-executed videogame cities, doing it badly reflects poorly on your production. Hence - DON'T DO IT. You'll be more successful in creating a sense of place surrounding seperate levels with smartly produced high quality SMOKE AND MIRRORS. I prefer ILLUSION OVER GROTESQUE.

I'm glad you made this post, because at least we've finally boiled down your point. You're looking for something like Max Payne 2, where you run about New York City, but each level always starts just after you've hopped a chainlink fence and are now just about to entire an enemy's warehouse, conveniently cut off from actual city streets. That's fine sometimes, but not all the time.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think a developer should give up on having a city environment just because they can't do it is big and bold as GTA/Saints Row/Infamous/Assassin's Creed. For this issue, I don't agree with the "go big or go home" mentality. I'm perfectly fine with games like Deus Ex occupying a middle ground where there's a portion of a city block, but for game design reasons it isn't designed in an entirely logical fashion. Unfortunately, nobody has really improved on that middle ground since Deus Ex 1, and instead most developers have apparently either gone open world, or have taken your advice and completely given up on a city and instead just dump the player from building to building, never letting them run openly on the streets.

I admit the crawlspace in Detroit is weird, but if it bothers you so much, there's also a subway station hallway that connects the Sarif Industries area to the Police Station/Jensen's Apartment area. Yeah, the cinderblocks in Hengsha are weird, but maybe they're there as a temporary solution because some new bylaw has made that street for pedestrians only and they don't want vehicles or bicycles on it. Yeah, the apartment buildings are wildly inefficient when each floor only has like 2-3 apartments, but that sort of problem has plagued 99% of video games ever made.

If you pay that much attention to details that small, most games look ridiculous. Does that really bother you on a regular basis? If it does, then that must ruin literally every town and city in every non-open-world video game, from Mass Effect's Citadel to BioShock's Rapture. I guess if you're a city planner by profession then perhaps you're extra sensitive to how illogical city layouts are in video games, but most people have the capacity to suspend disbelief, especially in light of all the other ways that Deus Ex's Detroit and Hengsha are evocative of the state of their fictional world.

Then we have to agree to disagree. And yes - I constantly come across levels with bizarre gameplay contrivances and go 'WTF is this shit?!'. Bioware is my favorite example of developers building blocky 'RPG-maker panel' levels. The day they try their hand at organic open natural environments, will be a day for jubilee for me - even if they'd fail. At least I'd see them try to evolve from their age old formula. Hell - they even managed to make SW:TOR feel like it's built on a squared D&D field.
 

@Tennmuerti: 

 
Detroit is a city. You call DE:HR's rendition of Detroit a 'hub world', I call it an open world-ish M.C. Esher-esque condensed and twisted abomination - semantics. Fact is, it's not built to be a city, it's built to be a level - the Detroit stage.
 
I'm basing my standard on the fact that Detroit is an American metroplitan city. Yours is set on the fact that Deus Ex : Human Revolution is a game. By my standard, I walk around the Detroit Stage constantly saying 'WTF is this shit!? This is not how streets work!'. By your standard, it's merely some gameplay contrivance - a place for Deus Ex gameplay to happen in - and that's fine by you. It's a shitty videogame city and a good Deus Ex level - we are both right.
 
As for bizarre architecture being based on IRL places and customs. Believabilty isn't based on what's real, it's based on what's expected. I'm sure there's some unbelievable shit being lived some place. Where dropping 4-feet high cement blocks in the middle of a pedestrian area in some slum is the new chic - I don't expect to find such a thing in my videogame city though. It's grotesque, even if there's IRL precedent.
 

@CptBedlam said:

@Napalm said:

Hi,

Stop making topics.

Thanks,

The Giant Bomb Userbase

signed

Dude - if you got nothing to say. Say nothing. And speak for yourself, if you must have your say. And it seems to me like we've got a lively discussion going on here - even if it's mostly focused on how wrong I supposedly am. I know, discussions are inconvenient. You'd actually have to put some effort into the thread to participate. Like reading and writing. Oh well - just move on then, if that's not asked too much.
#78 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -
@Tennmuerti said:

Seriously how can one immerse themselves in a fantasy setting when major cities in the world only have a handfull of common buildings almost no living space for the population, no sanitary facilities like latrines, etc etc. I'm talking about KoAR here by the way :). Even Skyrim the pinaccle of open world RPGs has "major"cities consisting of nothing but half a dozen buildings, they are tiny. And GTA/Saints Row/Infamous and all their ilk, eeeew, the cities are nothing but a huge level filled with useless lifeless geometry that you can't actually ineract with, filled with copy paste NPCs that serve no real porpose but to be mobile polygons for you to abuse, when i look at them it is instantly hitting me over the head just how pointless, artificial and mechanical all of it is.

Do you think it'd have been possible for Detroit to be built 'not grotesque', and still be a good Deus Ex level? Hypothetically? Or to achieve sufficient Deus Ex-ness without resorting to building such a wierd ass place to begin with?
#79 Edited by Tennmuerti (8059 posts) -

@Seppli said:

Detroit is a city. You call DE:HR's rendition of Detroit a 'hub world', I call it a open world-ish M.C. Esher-esque condensed abomination - semantics. Fact is, it's not built to be a city, it's built to be a level - the Detroit stage.

I'm basing my standard on the fact that Detroit is a metroplitan city. Yours is set on the fact that Deus Ex : Human Revolution is a game. By my standard, I walk around the Detroit Stage constantly saying 'WTF is this shit!? This is not how streets work!'. By your standard, it's merely some gameplay contrivance - a place for Deus Ex gameplay to happen in - and that's fine by you. It's a shitty videogame city and a good Deus Ex level - we are both right.

Never said Detroit wasn't a city. I'm only saing that ingame you are in a tiny closed off part of that city. I already said it also has roads and public transport, don't see what's not real about that. The 2 existing roads are simply blocked off. The cramped style is consistent with cyberpunk setting. You are also attributing to me certain standrds to with which I actually don't quite agree with. You are using personal standards what's realistic and what isn't, when say my standards of realism would dictate that every open world game is bizzaro world

"Believabilty isn't based on what's real, it's based on what's expected."

Brilliant! You just repeated my argument for me! It's exactly what I have been saying to you. Your expectations for the game were way off base so the disconnect is created. Misaligned expectations is not something you can place on someone elses door. Most people had appropriate expectaions going in.

I'm sure there's some unbelievable shit being lived some place. Where dropping 4-feet high cement blocks in the middle of a pedestrian area in some slum is the new chic - I don't expect to find such a thing in my videogame city though. It's grotesque, even if there's IRL precedent.

Now you are dismissing plausible explanations for a specific negative you brought up based on what? Just because you don't excpect it? Even if such things are actually done and exist?

Wow... Cmon dude, this isn't an argument this is the equivalent of closing your ears and going "lalalala i can't hear you", not cool.

#80 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

@Seppli: Says the guy who's been trashing a game for some of the dumbest reasons? Most people already dislike you on the simple principal that you create too many fucking topics doing nothing but trashing a game, and most responses here have basically said as much as I have. Your complaints are stupid, your opinions are wrong. End of thread.

And to be on topic for the sake of anybody but you: Deus Ex: Human Revolution loses almost all replayability based on the forced boss fights alone.

#81 Edited by Tennmuerti (8059 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@Tennmuerti said:

Seriously how can one immerse themselves in a fantasy setting when major cities in the world only have a handfull of common buildings almost no living space for the population, no sanitary facilities like latrines, etc etc. I'm talking about KoAR here by the way :). Even Skyrim the pinaccle of open world RPGs has "major"cities consisting of nothing but half a dozen buildings, they are tiny. And GTA/Saints Row/Infamous and all their ilk, eeeew, the cities are nothing but a huge level filled with useless lifeless geometry that you can't actually ineract with, filled with copy paste NPCs that serve no real porpose but to be mobile polygons for you to abuse, when i look at them it is instantly hitting me over the head just how pointless, artificial and mechanical all of it is.

Do you think it'd have been possible for Detroit to be built 'not grotesque', and still be a good Deus Ex level? Hypothetically? Or to achieve sufficient Deus Ex-ness without resorting to building such a wierd ass place to begin with?

"grotesque" is kind of just how you see it. :)

If you mean make it bigger and more open - No. Not is they wanted to keep the puzzle element, interactivity, or stay true to the original. It would be possible to do it, but it would require a departure from the density of shit to do and ways explore and a departure from the original formula. But it's not what people wanted.

However with a bigger budget, a well recieved Deus Ex prequel and homage to the original behind them. I can totally see the studio being able to deversify and improove upon the formula of the original Deus Ex in more significant ways. Take the visioon in their own direction.

#82 Posted by BisonHero (6398 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

@Seppli said:

I'm sure there's some unbelievable shit being lived some place. Where dropping 4-feet high cement blocks in the middle of a pedestrian area in some slum is the new chic - I don't expect to find such a thing in my videogame city though. It's grotesque, even if there's IRL precedent.

Now you are dismissing plausible explanations for a specific negative you brought up based on what? Just because you don't excpect it? Even if such things are actually done and exist?

Wow... Cmon dude, this isn't an argument this is the equivalent of closing your ears and going "lalalala i can't hear you", not cool.

I agree that it seemed really arbitrary of Seppli to start dismissing cities that are ugly or designed haphazardly IRL, when his whole argument against the city hub areas has been that they aren't realistic and break immersion/believability.

I admit some of his complaints about the weird alleyways in Detroit are valid because they make no sense even in messy IRL cities, but disregarding things that happen in actual cities/slums (like the use of concrete blocks) sounds like he is suddenly revising his point. Suddenly his point becomes that video games should only emulate the well designed cities of the world because he doesn't want ugly video game cities, and now it seems like Seppli is just moving the goal post as he sees fit, and no counterargument is good enough.

#83 Posted by css_switchfoot (119 posts) -

This is why I like GiantBomb. I see a post that I disagree with, and the community has already formed my argument three or four different ways. I can just sit back and read. Nice job duders.

#84 Edited by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

@css_switchfoot said:

This is why I like GiantBomb. I see a post that I disagree with, and the community has already formed my argument three or four different ways. I can just sit back and read. Nice job duders.

Pretty much.

Good job as always, Seppli.

#85 Posted by SASnake (323 posts) -

dude...you look too much into games.

#86 Posted by Redsox44 (482 posts) -

I loved Human Revolution, especially the amazing soundtrack!

#87 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -
@Tennmuerti said:

@Seppli said:

Detroit is a city. You call DE:HR's rendition of Detroit a 'hub world', I call it a open world-ish M.C. Esher-esque condensed abomination - semantics. Fact is, it's not built to be a city, it's built to be a level - the Detroit stage.

I'm basing my standard on the fact that Detroit is a metroplitan city. Yours is set on the fact that Deus Ex : Human Revolution is a game. By my standard, I walk around the Detroit Stage constantly saying 'WTF is this shit!? This is not how streets work!'. By your standard, it's merely some gameplay contrivance - a place for Deus Ex gameplay to happen in - and that's fine by you. It's a shitty videogame city and a good Deus Ex level - we are both right.

1. Never said Detroit wasn't a city. I'm only saing that ingame you are in a tiny closed off part of that city. I already said it also has roads and public transport, don't see what's not real about that. The 2 existing roads are simply blocked off. The cramped style is consistent with cyberpunk setting. You are also attributing to me certain standrds to with which I actually don't quite agree with. You are using personal standards what's realistic and what isn't, when say my standards of realism would dictate that every open world game is bizzaro world

"Believabilty isn't based on what's real, it's based on what's expected."

2. Brilliant! You just repeated my argument for me! It's exactly what I have been saying to you. Your expectations for the game were way off base so the disconnect is created. Misaligned expectations is not something you can place on someone elses door. Most people had appropriate expectaions going in.

I'm sure there's some unbelievable shit being lived some place. Where dropping 4-feet high cement blocks in the middle of a pedestrian area in some slum is the new chic - I don't expect to find such a thing in my videogame city though. It's grotesque, even if there's IRL precedent.

3. Now you are dismissing plausible explanations for a specific negative you brought up based on what? Just because you don't excpect it? Even if such things are actually done and exist?

Wow... Cmon dude, this isn't an argument this is the equivalent of closing your ears and going "lalalala i can't hear you", not cool.

  1. It's not a tiny closed off part of the city. It some kind of bizarre warped grotesque condensation of the city, fitting too many contradictory things into the same city block. I knew exactly what to expect going in. What I didn't expect is how much I'd find it offputting. Admittedly - Detroit is the worst of it, but Hengsha has its wierd architectural quirks too. Open world games with a functional and rational road networks are bizarre, and Deus Ex' roads and alleyways going nowhere are a realistic depiction of such a thing? Ever seen a street map of Detroit (or any other American city and town)? It's simply not how streets work, even if they are blocked off for some 'lore' reason or another. Don't quite get the point you're trying to make.
  2. Again - I knew what to expect going in. I've played Deus Ex back in the day. I've seen and read plenty reviews for Human Revolution. My expectations were spot-on. My reaction to it was surprising me. Walking the streets of Detroit, more often than not, I'd go 'WTF is this shit!?' out loud, for how contrived and silly the whole stage is put together.  I'm offering an explanation to why it struck me so.
  3. If something is grotesque, it's grotesque, even if it's based on something that exists IRL. If there's a million cities that don't build their pedesterian zones with cement blocks sitting in the middle of the walkway, then the one city that does such a thing doesn't make it less bizarre, grotesque and out of place.  You don't hear me, because you seem to be unable to look at a fact from more than one angle.
  @Tennmuerti said:

@Seppli said:

@Tennmuerti said:

Seriously how can one immerse themselves in a fantasy setting when major cities in the world only have a handfull of common buildings almost no living space for the population, no sanitary facilities like latrines, etc etc. I'm talking about KoAR here by the way :). Even Skyrim the pinaccle of open world RPGs has "major"cities consisting of nothing but half a dozen buildings, they are tiny. And GTA/Saints Row/Infamous and all their ilk, eeeew, the cities are nothing but a huge level filled with useless lifeless geometry that you can't actually ineract with, filled with copy paste NPCs that serve no real porpose but to be mobile polygons for you to abuse, when i look at them it is instantly hitting me over the head just how pointless, artificial and mechanical all of it is.

Do you think it'd have been possible for Detroit to be built 'not grotesque', and still be a good Deus Ex level? Hypothetically? Or to achieve sufficient Deus Ex-ness without resorting to building such a wierd ass place to begin with?

"grotesque" is kind of just how you see it. :)

If you mean make it bigger and more open - No. Not is they wanted to keep the puzzle element, interactivity, or stay true to the original. It would be possible to do it, but it would require a departure from the density of shit to do and ways explore and a departure from the original formula. But it's not what people wanted.

However with a bigger budget, a well recieved Deus Ex prequel and homage to the original behind them. I can totally see the studio being able to deversify and improove upon the formula of the original Deus Ex in more significant ways. Take the visioon in their own direction.

Look, I just find the 'We're taking the Deus Ex puzzle level to the streets of Detroit' laughably ridiculous and contrived. Ill-conceived design. Let the streets of your hubworld be for getting around, and let the puzzles be, where they make sense organically. It's about 'how to get into the morgue' and not 'how to get to the police station'. Not that it's particularly hard to get there, it's only silly that's all. What should be a stroll on a boardwalk is about navigating a nonsensical maze of mad architecture, doing stuff like crouchwalking a crawlspace.  Lough-out-loud ridiculous is what it is.
 
To bring it full circle. It's so terribad, it's like it was built in 1999.
 
And again. I enjoy the game. A LOT. Played like 20 hours in 2 days. I'm hooked, but not really immersed. Every so often, there's something so silly and contrived, I can't help but laugh my ass off.
#88 Posted by Tennmuerti (8059 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@Tennmuerti said:

@Seppli said:

Detroit is a city. You call DE:HR's rendition of Detroit a 'hub world', I call it a open world-ish M.C. Esher-esque condensed abomination - semantics. Fact is, it's not built to be a city, it's built to be a level - the Detroit stage.

I'm basing my standard on the fact that Detroit is a metroplitan city. Yours is set on the fact that Deus Ex : Human Revolution is a game. By my standard, I walk around the Detroit Stage constantly saying 'WTF is this shit!? This is not how streets work!'. By your standard, it's merely some gameplay contrivance - a place for Deus Ex gameplay to happen in - and that's fine by you. It's a shitty videogame city and a good Deus Ex level - we are both right.

1. Never said Detroit wasn't a city. I'm only saing that ingame you are in a tiny closed off part of that city. I already said it also has roads and public transport, don't see what's not real about that. The 2 existing roads are simply blocked off. The cramped style is consistent with cyberpunk setting. You are also attributing to me certain standrds to with which I actually don't quite agree with. You are using personal standards what's realistic and what isn't, when say my standards of realism would dictate that every open world game is bizzaro world

"Believabilty isn't based on what's real, it's based on what's expected."

2. Brilliant! You just repeated my argument for me! It's exactly what I have been saying to you. Your expectations for the game were way off base so the disconnect is created. Misaligned expectations is not something you can place on someone elses door. Most people had appropriate expectaions going in.

I'm sure there's some unbelievable shit being lived some place. Where dropping 4-feet high cement blocks in the middle of a pedestrian area in some slum is the new chic - I don't expect to find such a thing in my videogame city though. It's grotesque, even if there's IRL precedent.

3. Now you are dismissing plausible explanations for a specific negative you brought up based on what? Just because you don't excpect it? Even if such things are actually done and exist?

Wow... Cmon dude, this isn't an argument this is the equivalent of closing your ears and going "lalalala i can't hear you", not cool.

  1. It's not a tiny closed off part of the city. It some kind of bizarre warped grotesque condensation of the city, fitting too many contradictory things into the same city block. I knew exactly what to expect going in. What I didn't expect is how much I'd find it offputting. Admittedly - Detroit is the worst of it, but Hengsha has its wierd architectural quirks too. Open world games with a functional and rational road networks are bizarre, and Deus Ex' roads and alleyways going nowhere are a realistic depiction of such a thing? Ever seen a street map of Detroit (or any other American city and town)? It's simply not how streets work, even if they are blocked off for some 'lore' reason or another. Don't quite get the point you're trying to make.
  2. Again - I knew what to expect going in. I've played Deus Ex back in the day. I've seen and read plenty reviews for Human Revolution. My expectations were spot-on. My reaction to it was surprising me. Walking the streets of Detroit, more often than not, I'd go 'WTF is this shit!?' out loud, for how contrived and silly the whole stage is put together. I'm offering an explanation to why it struck me so.
  3. If something is grotesque, it's grotesque, even if it's based on something that exists IRL. If there's a million cities that don't build their pedesterian zones with cement blocks sitting in the middle of the walkway, then the one city that does such a thing doesn't make it less bizarre, grotesque and out of place. You don't hear me, because you seem to be unable to look at a fact from more than one angle.
@Tennmuerti said:

@Seppli said:

@Tennmuerti said:

Seriously how can one immerse themselves in a fantasy setting when major cities in the world only have a handfull of common buildings almost no living space for the population, no sanitary facilities like latrines, etc etc. I'm talking about KoAR here by the way :). Even Skyrim the pinaccle of open world RPGs has "major"cities consisting of nothing but half a dozen buildings, they are tiny. And GTA/Saints Row/Infamous and all their ilk, eeeew, the cities are nothing but a huge level filled with useless lifeless geometry that you can't actually ineract with, filled with copy paste NPCs that serve no real porpose but to be mobile polygons for you to abuse, when i look at them it is instantly hitting me over the head just how pointless, artificial and mechanical all of it is.

Do you think it'd have been possible for Detroit to be built 'not grotesque', and still be a good Deus Ex level? Hypothetically? Or to achieve sufficient Deus Ex-ness without resorting to building such a wierd ass place to begin with?

"grotesque" is kind of just how you see it. :)

If you mean make it bigger and more open - No. Not is they wanted to keep the puzzle element, interactivity, or stay true to the original. It would be possible to do it, but it would require a departure from the density of shit to do and ways explore and a departure from the original formula. But it's not what people wanted.

However with a bigger budget, a well recieved Deus Ex prequel and homage to the original behind them. I can totally see the studio being able to deversify and improove upon the formula of the original Deus Ex in more significant ways. Take the visioon in their own direction.

Look, I just find the 'We're taking the Deus Ex puzzle level to the streets of Detroit' laughably ridiculous and contrived. Ill-conceived design. Let the streets of your hubworld be for getting around, and let the puzzles be, where they make sense organically. It's about 'how to get into the morgue' and not 'how to get to the police station'. Not that it's particularly hard to get there, it's only silly that's all. What should be a stroll on a boardwalk is about navigating a nonsensical maze of mad architecture, doing stuff like crouchwalking a crawlspace. Lough-out-loud ridiculous is what it is.

To bring it full circle. It's so terribad, it's like it was built in 1999.

And again. I enjoy the game. A LOT. Played like 20 hours in 2 days. I'm hooked, but not really immersed. Every so often, there's something so silly and contrived, I can't help but laugh my ass off.

1. DX:HR roads in detroit are going where they need to not nowhere they are simply closed off. Street map of a real Detroit is irrelevant. I have already advanced to you several reason in my previous posts as to why the fictional future Detroit is so cramped. We have sqallor and overpopulated cities even now, there are many of those and trafic and movement in those ares can be a nightmare, as well as the ovebuilding and people living almost on top of each in shitty conditions other being a staple of the cyberpunk geanre.

3. There are plenty of cities that use some sort of solid seperations to wall off what was previously a road into a pedestrian area. This isn't something wild and hugely rare. You not expecting it or being weirded out by it does not make it suddenly an abomination, when plenty of precedent exists. "If something is grotesque, it's grotesque" you are throwing around the word grotesque like it's fact, when it has nothing to do with fact, which is that such things exists. It being grotesque is entirely your own feeling.

You can walk like a normal human being from the Sarif offices through the metro area and walk intot the police station through the front door. No crouching or going through crawlspaces is required at any point.

#89 Edited by Seppli (10251 posts) -

@Tennmuerti:

Dude - just was in Detroit for the second visit now. There's like 4 apartment complexes you can only enter by fire escape. That's the level of silly their worldbuilding is in Detroit. To me - such things are lough-out-loud bad. Same goes for the layout of the streets and alleyways and such. Like a metro station tunnel without access to a metro. You can defend their world design in Detroit all you want, but it truely is - Built Like It Was 1999 - it's your perogative to find that okay and defend it, as it is mine to laugh-out-loud pubicly. Neither of us are wrong, unless you insist that Detroit is in fact a well put together stage depicting a believable Detroit of the year 2025. Then my friend, you are dead wrong.

The cement blocks in Hengsha are amongst the silliest things I've ever come across in a virtual world. No degree of argumentation can change that fact. You could do an image search and come up with 1000 examples of exactly that - a 1,5m high wall in the middle of a pedestrian walkway with no way around it or reason to be there - it'd still make me laugh-out-loud everytime I'd jump over it to get places... because it's silly to me. Grotesquely silly. The bestest most awesome argument (which you didn't make, by the way), would not make me budge on my stance on those cement blocks.

#90 Posted by mordukai (7149 posts) -

@Tennmuerti: Why are you still at it man? Can't you see you are giving more fuel to fire. Seriously, he is arguing about how a fictitious version of Detroit is set in a sci-fi video game.

#91 Posted by Tennmuerti (8059 posts) -

@Seppli said:

unless you insist that Detroit is in fact a well put together stage depicting a believable Detroit of the year 2025. Then my friend, you are dead wrong.

Never did. A. the Deus Ex timeline is not consistent with ours anymore, it's a divergent one. B. it's crammed cyberpinkish stylings are a fictional idea that originated in the 90s (kind of like Fallout 1 & 2 are divergent and are a what people in the 50s would have imagined the future of technology to be like) it has almost nothing to do with Detroit, but more with slums of overpopulated cities C. it's a gameplay contrivance, such are present in every game to a degree

The cement blocks in Hengsha are amongst the silliest things I've ever come across in a virtual world. No degree of argumentation can change that fact. You could do an image search and come up with 1000 examples of exactly that - a 1,5m high wall in the middle of a pedestrian walkway with no way around it or reason to be there - it'd still make me laugh-out-loud everytime I'd jump over it to get places... because it's silly to me. Grotesquely silly. The bestest most awesome argument (which you didn't make, by the way), would not make me budge on my stance on those cement blocks.

Cool, it's silly to you. Whats your point?

It's perfectly plausible for the rest of us. I don't really care about your stance on the cement blocks it's your own perogative, we have already shown why such stance is invalid to the rest of us.

You haven't made the case why others should agree with this viewpoint on the cement blocks.

#92 Posted by artgarcrunkle (970 posts) -

Are these posts even real?

#93 Posted by kamolahy (117 posts) -

@Seppli said:

  • Don't you love silly gamey things, like a box of ammo carrying a single bullet? Or sold in stores 5 shots in a pack?

I guess then we can pick apart every game and inventory mechanics. I think at one point in Skyrim I was lugging around like 50 sweet rolls. Where do they all GO!?

#94 Posted by Roger778 (957 posts) -

@blueduck:

Agreed. The game is definitely awesome.

#95 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -
@kamolahy said:

@Seppli said:

  • Don't you love silly gamey things, like a box of ammo carrying a single bullet? Or sold in stores 5 shots in a pack?

I guess then we can pick apart every game and inventory mechanics. I think at one point in Skyrim I was lugging around like 50 sweet rolls. Where do they all GO!?

Give me some of your sweet rolls.
#96 Posted by krazy_kyle (716 posts) -

The only thing I would have changed about the game was the wierd Victorian era clothing some people wore. It just seemed rediculous like something you would see on a catwalk these days and just didn't seem like something that anyone would realistically wear. Apart from that I really enjoyed the game. The music and graphics also set the mood brilliantly.

#97 Posted by warxsnake (2645 posts) -

The shit AI and super basic patrol patterns are the worst parts of DEHR. Makes it way too easy

#98 Edited by valrog (3671 posts) -

@krazy_kyle: Actually it's Renaissance, and it's supposed to symbolize progress, a step forward in mankind, with the Transhumanism and other technological advancements. I don't know, it seemed pretty believable to me.

Also, not this thread again...

#99 Posted by krazy_kyle (716 posts) -

@valrog Well, I stand corrected. However I don't share your opinion with the whole step forward thing. It seems more like a step backwards to me. I can't honestly say I can see people casually wearing things like that in the next 100 years.

#100 Posted by Vinny_Says (5700 posts) -

I'm not saying my opinion is right, but my opinion is a fact and facts are right, and the fact is Deus Ex HR is an awesome game.

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