Did they play it a bit too safe ?

#1 Posted by Ares42 (2627 posts) -

So after getting about halfway through the game I'm starting to realize this is more like "Deus Ex v2.0" than Deus Ex 3. For a lot of people this probably isn't a big issue, as they never really played through Deus Ex and got to discover what made that game so awesome, but the game really comes off as very "same-y". It just seems to me like after the failure of Deus Ex 2 they have gotten to afraid to touch a lot of things and we're left with a game that still has a lot of outdated features. Things like the bad inventory, silly AI situations, pointless credits, weird ladder climbing, non-dynamic environments etc etc. While they have added a few new things that work well, I was really hoping they would've improved more on the formula.

#2 Posted by DANW547 (50 posts) -

The points you make are valid but what they made is exactly what I was waiting for, it needs that "jank" to feel like the original Deus Ex game and as such it does, even the character models (especially in pre-rendered cut scenes) have an odd look about them which is really faithfull to the original for better or worse.

#3 Edited by gike987 (1752 posts) -

I love the inventory. It's much better than the encumbrance system most other modern games use. It's much easier to see what to drop when everything takes blocks, with the encumbrance system you have to go through every item to see which weight the most. The fact that inventory auto sorts makes it so you never have to play inventory tetris.

#4 Posted by hedfone (1751 posts) -

yeah the inventory was pretty bad i wish it was more like invisible war:(

#5 Posted by TotalEklypse (1000 posts) -

I like the inventory until I run out of space. Then I get annoyed.

#6 Posted by kingzetta (4307 posts) -

The only thing I didn't like is by the end of the game I had basically all the augs.
I hope there are double the augs in the next game. This is a great reboot, but it can use the refinement of a sequel.

#7 Edited by Spoonman671 (4607 posts) -

The only thing I would say they played it too safe on is the augments.  Most of them feel a bit tame considering their potential.

#8 Posted by Animasta (14677 posts) -

@kingzetta said:

The only thing I didn't like is by the end of the game I had basically all the augs. I hope there are double the augs in the next game. This is a great reboot, but it can use the refinement of a sequel.

yeah, that was the one big problem I had

#9 Edited by Ares42 (2627 posts) -
@gike987 said:

I love the inventory. It's much better than the encumbrance system most other modern games use. It's much easier to see what to drop than going through every item to see which weight the most, and the fact that inventory auto sorts makes it so you never have to play inventory tetris.

The problem isn't the concept, it's the execution. There's nothing wrong with grid inventory. But the way the weapons and mods just take enormous amounts of space, and how most of the ammo can only be picked up if you already have the weapon in your inventory just makes for frustrating gameplay. Like how almost every time you find a mod you end up having to dump a weapon, pick up the mod, use it, then pick up the weapon again. It's sorta the point I was trying to make. Most of the things I mentioned are conceptually good, but has over time been executed way better, and they seem too scared to adapt these iterations in fear of making it "not-Deus-Ex".
#10 Posted by mpgeist (600 posts) -

The only thing I dislike about this game is my incessant need to quick save and load all the time. It totally breaks the immersion but I can't help it (not really the games fault).

#11 Posted by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -

I love Tetris inventories.

#12 Edited by gike987 (1752 posts) -
@Ares42 said:

@gike987 said:

I love the inventory. It's much better than the encumbrance system most other modern games use. It's much easier to see what to drop than going through every item to see which weight the most, and the fact that inventory auto sorts makes it so you never have to play inventory tetris.

The problem isn't the concept, it's the execution. There's nothing wrong with grid inventory. But the way the weapons and mods just take enormous amounts of space, and how most of the ammo can only be picked up if you already have the weapon in your inventory just makes for frustrating gameplay. Like how almost every time you find a mod you end up having to dump a weapon, pick up the mod, use it, then pick up the weapon again. It's sorta the point I was trying to make. Most of the things I mentioned are conceptually good, but has over time been executed way better, and they seem too scared to adapt these iterations in fear of making it "not-Deus-Ex".
I never had to have the weapon in my inventory to pick up ammo for it. If you upgrade the inventory fully there are more than enough space for a couple of guns and whatever else you need.
#13 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -
@hedfone said:

yeah the inventory was pretty bad i wish it was more like invisible war:(

Die and burn in hell monster! 
That being said the inventory isn't the best aspect of the game, but the game is still awesome.
#14 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11649 posts) -

I think them playing it safe was kind of required, if only to prove to themselves that they could make a game like the original Deus Ex. I mean, so many other developers have tried to make games like Deus Ex that it's more than a bit of a relief to see one that only has one significant issue, those being the totally lame boss battles.

Online
#15 Posted by Lazyaza (2176 posts) -

My only problem with it is the terrible quest tracking and navigation system.  You have to pull up your map every single time you want to check where you need to be going.  A player defined waypoint system ala Mass Effect style would have fixed this problem, no idea why they didn't include one.

#16 Posted by Sin4profit (2925 posts) -

@Ares42: yeah, i felr the same way, not in a bad way, i enjoyed it a great deal but it makes me wonder what they can do with this game in the future. They sure can't make it the exact same game for a third time so i wonder if this game is to establish their current systems for those who've never played the first, apologize for Invisible War for those who played it, and give them the chance to expand on it in the future.

They're calling it a reboot and some people are speculating that the next game will be a remake of the first Deus Ex, which i'd be interested in playing, i'm just wondering if they can actually take it in any kind of direction without pissing off Deus Ex fans other then remaking the same game over and over.

With the release of Prey 2, though, i may get my new open worldly blade runner-like fix from that.

#17 Posted by yinstarrunner (1185 posts) -

Playing it safe?  Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean making the game more like the leading RPG/shooter-hybrid on the market, Mass Effect?  Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean dumbing down the inventory system, or making the shooting feel more like Call of Duty?  When people say "play it safe", I picture homogenization,  doing the same crap everyone in the industry is doing.  Nobody makes games like Deus Ex anymore, and the fact that Eidos Montreal DID doesn't give me the impression that they played anything safe.  They've tried to achieve a good balance in Human Revolution, between the new and the old, and to me it seems they very much suceeded.  The team themselves, on their own forums, have expressed their love for the original Deus Ex, and their desire to make a worthwhile followup to it. 
 
Yeah, it's Deus Ex 2.0.  How is that a bad thing?  We haven't had one of those in over 10 years, dude.  And nobody's been able to imitate that style with the same success.  
Online
#18 Posted by Ares42 (2627 posts) -
@yinstarrunner: Well, depends on how you look at it I guess. If they just wanted to sell the game then making it more generic would certainly be safer. But if they wanted to relaunch the IP, playing safe would mean trying to serve the core fans. Deus Ex was absolutely a great game... ten years ago (and even then it was a bit behind the curve on certain things), but so was Diablo 2 too. If they tried to launch Diablo 3 without even looking at all the iterations made for that genre it would certainly disappoint people too.
#19 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

@yinstarrunner said:

Playing it safe? Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean making the game more like the leading RPG/shooter-hybrid on the market, Mass Effect? Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean dumbing down the inventory system, or making the shooting feel more like Call of Duty? When people say "play it safe", I picture homogenization, doing the same crap everyone in the industry is doing. Nobody makes games like Deus Ex anymore, and the fact that Eidos Montreal DID doesn't give me the impression that they played anything safe. They've tried to achieve a good balance in Human Revolution, between the new and the old, and to me it seems they very much suceeded. The team themselves, on their own forums, have expressed their love for the original Deus Ex, and their desire to make a worthwhile followup to it. Yeah, it's Deus Ex 2.0. How is that a bad thing? We haven't had one of those in over 10 years, dude. And nobody's been able to imitate that style with the same success.

Basically this. Tenmuerti was right. This is a really good Deus Ex retread. I have high hopes for the sequel.

#20 Posted by awe_stuck (800 posts) -

Found the gameplay was a little hard at boss fights, and at different junction points (after a cutscene). Game feels like Deus Ex. Mixing Splinter Cell with Modern Warfare is a lil weird. Great game though. Dont think they played it safe at all.

#21 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

I think it would have been silly to attempt a DX3. Human Revolution was a great reboot but they kinda had do do this one a certain way. I definitely hope they end up making a "true" DX3, building on the foundation of DX:HR.

#22 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -

Giving me a true Deus Ex by playing it too safe is much better than trying to "innovate", "streamline" and "overhaul" and giving me a shitty game that would make me even more bitter than I already am.
Don't get me wrong, I love innovation and new ideas. But based on the hundreds of franchises that went down the drain when that happened, I'm perfectly OK with keeping the same Deus Ex formula, the one that, you know, is fucking great.

#23 Posted by EuanDewar (4899 posts) -
@AhmadMetallic Please give me an example of a series that has ruined itself by innovating. This isn't me saying "Fuck you that doesn't make sense." I'm just struggling to think of one.
#24 Posted by NTM (7344 posts) -

That reminds me, I should get back to playing it and finish it up on hard. I like it, and I played the first and second. The only thing I think could have been better is the character animations overall, from the facial animations, to the overall movements A.I. and Adam Jensen take downs alike.

#25 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -
@EuanDewar said:
@AhmadMetallic Please give me an example of a series that has ruined itself by innovating. This isn't me saying "Fuck you that doesn't make sense." I'm just struggling to think of one.
That depends on your definition of "ruined." I doubt we have the same definition.
#26 Posted by EuanDewar (4899 posts) -
@AhmadMetallic
@EuanDewar said:
@AhmadMetallic Please give me an example of a series that has ruined itself by innovating. This isn't me saying "Fuck you that doesn't make sense." I'm just struggling to think of one.
That depends on your definition of "ruined." I doubt we have the same definition.
Alls I'm sayin' is that the word 'innovation' connotes a certain amount of positivity. It implies they're doing something good in the space. If you wanna say some shit has gone down as a result of new ideas then surezies.
#27 Edited by Tennmuerti (8076 posts) -
@EuanDewar said:

@AhmadMetallic Please give me an example of a series that has ruined itself by innovating. This isn't me saying "Fuck you that doesn't make sense." I'm just struggling to think of one.

Off the top of my head?:
  • C&C4
  • HoMM4,6
  • DA2
  • Fallout3
  • Red Faction: Armageddon

There are much much more that ruined themselves by the streamlining and overhaul parts of his statement.

@EuanDewar said:

Alls I'm sayin' is that the word 'innovation' connotes a certain amount of positivity. It implies they're doing something good in the space. If you wanna say some shit has gone down as a result of new ideas then surezies.

Tut-tut! Innovation is not necessarily positive. It's just new, it's neither positive not negative by default. There are plenty of bad innovative ideas.
#28 Posted by EuanDewar (4899 posts) -
@Tennmuerti I never played it but, DA2 innovated?
#29 Edited by Tennmuerti (8076 posts) -
@EuanDewar said:

@Tennmuerti I never played it but, DA2 innovated?

Yep, cross class synergy skills that multiplied dmg anywhere from 100%-1000%
Junk items that served no purpose at all simply there to exist.
Every encounter being wave based, with new waves simply appearing out of thin air.
#30 Edited by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -
@EuanDewar said:

@AhmadMetallic

@EuanDewar said:
@AhmadMetallic Please give me an example of a series that has ruined itself by innovating. This isn't me saying "Fuck you that doesn't make sense." I'm just struggling to think of one.
That depends on your definition of "ruined." I doubt we have the same definition.
Alls I'm sayin' is that the word 'innovation' connotes a certain amount of positivity. It implies they're doing something good in the space. If you wanna say some shit has gone down as a result of new ideas then surezies.
Yes, there is positivity in that innovation (it's mostly just streamlining by the way), and in an overview it seems like "good" changes for the better, but they always end up sacrificing the very things that defined the original games. Whether it's the atmosphere and wild life of The Witcher, the open, free and punishing worlds of Crysis and Far Cry, the patience-soaked and very delicate execution and gameplay of Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, the homage theme of Dragon Age: Origins, the chain of command, complex interrelated systems, and fragility of the individual player in multiplayer Battlefield, it was all deserted and replaced by seemingly progressive & beneficial yet extremely hurtful "innovation." 
 
Had the developers of this game tried to "streamline" Deus Ex "for the better," I assure you it wouldn't have felt like a Deus Ex game. You have to innovate and add more content and systems WITHIN the basic boundaries of the previous games, otherwise there's no reason for your new game to have the old name on the box. 
And that's what 90% of the developers out there don't understand. Whereas Assassin's Creed II absolutely nailed the purpose of a sequel.
#31 Posted by valrog (3671 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

Whereas Assassin's Creed II absolutely nailed the purpose of a sequel.

Too bad that it felt like they left out all those "features" on purpose in the first game, just so they could boast how much things they've added.

#32 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -
@valrog said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

Whereas Assassin's Creed II absolutely nailed the purpose of a sequel.

Too bad that it felt like they left out all those "features" on purpose in the first game, just so they could boast how much things they've added.

You actually think that they had the AC2 gameplay and scope back in 2007? Come on. As a first game in a new and original IP, AC1 is totally legit.
#33 Posted by bybeach (4792 posts) -
@yinstarrunner said:


                    Playing it safe?  Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean making the game more like the leading RPG/shooter-hybrid on the market, Mass Effect?  Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean dumbing down the inventory system, or making the shooting feel more like Call of Duty?  When people say "play it safe", I picture homogenization,  doing the same crap everyone in the industry is doing.  Nobody makes games like Deus Ex anymore, and the fact that Eidos Montreal DID doesn't give me the impression that they played anything safe.  They've tried to achieve a good balance in Human Revolution, between the new and the old, and to me it seems they very much suceeded.  The team themselves, on their own forums, have expressed their love for the original Deus Ex, and their desire to make a worthwhile followup to it.  Yeah, it's Deus Ex 2.0.  How is that a bad thing?  We haven't had one of those in over 10 years, dude.  And nobody's been able to imitate that style with the same success.  

                   

               

I'm w/this guy. Mind you, I can be modern and if that is what it implies, Mass effect shallow (well maybe not as much as I thought). But Human Rev felt close enough to Deus Ex to please me. The inventory system is suppossed to be a hassle, and you are suppossed to make hard potentially sucky choices. I do agree about the excecution, but it worked. And I agree about more augs/challenges to use them. Always good to have another hill to climb, another thing you haven't seen before. Sadly I tend to rreally like efficient shooting controls, but I coped w/old deus Ex. Thankfully the devs improved that instead of really tapping the cane and implementing that clunky rpg style approach..
Online
#34 Posted by valrog (3671 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

@valrog said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

Whereas Assassin's Creed II absolutely nailed the purpose of a sequel.

Too bad that it felt like they left out all those "features" on purpose in the first game, just so they could boast how much things they've added.

You actually think that they had the AC2 gameplay and scope back in 2007? Come on. As a first game in a new and original IP, AC1 is totally legit.

You actually think they couldn't make Altair swim or have a day/night cycle in 2007? Come on.

#35 Posted by iAmJohn (6117 posts) -

@yinstarrunner said:

Playing it safe? Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean making the game more like the leading RPG/shooter-hybrid on the market, Mass Effect? Wouldn't "playing it safe" mean dumbing down the inventory system, or making the shooting feel more like Call of Duty? When people say "play it safe", I picture homogenization, doing the same crap everyone in the industry is doing. Nobody makes games like Deus Ex anymore, and the fact that Eidos Montreal DID doesn't give me the impression that they played anything safe. They've tried to achieve a good balance in Human Revolution, between the new and the old, and to me it seems they very much suceeded. The team themselves, on their own forums, have expressed their love for the original Deus Ex, and their desire to make a worthwhile followup to it. Yeah, it's Deus Ex 2.0. How is that a bad thing? We haven't had one of those in over 10 years, dude. And nobody's been able to imitate that style with the same success.

Quoting this sixth-month-old post again because it continues to be right. The very fact that they went back to the original Deus Ex and tried to make that a concept that works in 2011 where shooters and RPGs have drastically changed and were not only successful in making something that felt modern and new but also felt like a throwback to the original Deus Ex and a bygone era of game design is something they should be commended for. Who cares if they stuck a little too close to the conventions of Deus Ex 1? It still feel completely different thanks to the story and the world, and fuckin' a, man, no one makes Deus Ex-like games anymore. The last game that arguably tried was Human Revolution, and we all know how that turned out.

Not going to lie, I think Human Revolution gets some undue hate. It's not a worthy follow-up to Deus Ex, but it's still got some good qualities to it. Though I will say, the fact that every fucking weapon uses the same goddamn ammo is not one of them.
#36 Posted by yoshisaur (2708 posts) -

Well when your audience is generally a bunch of whiny 13 year old (mentally) than I would be terrified to innovate in my game too. People want the same old shit they've been shoveled regardless of how much they banter on the forums about it. There is a reason making sequels can be devastating, because on the outside people want new, and when that's delivered and doesn't live up to their standards, they plea for the days of old.

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