Dualstick Shooter Controls Better Suited For Diablo 3 Than Mouse and Hotkeys?

#1 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
#2 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -

I never played Diablo 1 & 2 (didn't have a decent enough PC way-back-when; I tried them later, but they were just too shabby-looking at then). Recently I got TitanQuest as a pack-in game with the German Gamestar magazine. I played it for a long session (and promptly had my fill).
 
It just made me think, all the 'player skill' stuff like active dodging and kiting and casting on the move. That'd be so much quicker and more natural with dualstick controls. I figure Diablo classes won't have that many skills. I'm assuming that'll be between 8-12 active skills per class. That would easily fit on a gamepad with a mutator or two.
 
Wadd'ya think? Could dualstick shooter controls be better suited for lootfest click 'n kills like Diablo III? From where I'm sitting - absolutely. It might take some getting used to working with mutators, but damn execution would come so much more naturally. Stressfree kiting and dodging and casting on the move.
 
  

#3 Posted by Azteck (7416 posts) -

Why on earth would they be?

#4 Posted by Spoonman671 (5019 posts) -

I don't really understand this question.  Also, I haven't played Diablo 3.

#5 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Spoonman671 said:

I don't really understand this question.  Also, I haven't played Diablo 3.

Move in any direction while facing in any direction. Dualstick Shooter- like controls. Kiting and active dodging skills and casting on the move would come much more effortlessly.
 
Also - perfectly ergonomical hotkeys.
#6 Edited by picklecannon (273 posts) -

The things that you could pull off in diablo 2 just wouldn't be quick and accurate enough for a dualstick set up. You need really really fast mouse movements to teleport efficiently and avoid dieing when you teleport into a crowd of enemies. Sometimes as soon you teleport you want to cast a quick spell like meteor or holy hammers and quickly get out of that area, all while keeping tabs on your hp ready to pop a potion. If diablo 3 is not as quick as diablo 2 than it could possibly be pulled off, however a lot of the appeal of the game would be lost for me.

#7 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@picklecannon said:

The things that you could pull off in diablo 2 just wouldn't be quick and accurate enough for a dualstick set up. You need really really fast mouse movements to teleport efficiently and avoid dieing when you teleport into a crowd of enemies. Sometimes as soon you teleport you want to cast a quick spell like meteor or holy hammers and quickly get out of that area, all while keeping tabs on your hp ready to pop a potion. If diablo 3 is not as quick as diablo 2 than it could possibly be pulled off, however a lot of the appeal of the game would be lost for me.

In fact, I believe you would be quicker with dualstick controls allowing for greater challenge, since you are mostly indipendent of a cursor. Skills that require a targeting cursor just make it pop-up under you character and you drag it where it needs to go.
 
The beauty of dualstick shooter controls is instant change of direction, instead of dragging a mousecursor from one side of the screen to the other.
 
As for accuracy. Dualstick shooters demand pin-point precision and the control scheme allows for such. Full 360 degree control at flick of 2 thumbs.
#8 Posted by Surkov (1017 posts) -

I stopped reading at "I never played Diablo 1 & 2."

#9 Posted by niamahai (1409 posts) -

control wise I don't think it should be a problem.

With potions on a 2min cooldown (not sure if final release will be the same) and mobs dropping health orbs, the 11112223233444 spam to chug potions is gone already.

like DA:O technically you could filled your entire hotbar with spells/skills, but realistically you always had the buffs on and sticking with only 3-4 skills (you could map 6 skills to the console face buttons?) most of the time.

I am just curious whether they should implement some form of blocking in Diablo3. The couple of isometric action game on consoles (Deathspank, Bastion) had blocking in it and it worked kinda well.

as for Blizzard making a console game? It is inevitable.

*enable busniess schmuck mode*

Knowing how big Blizz is combined with their resources, the are opportunity cost of forgoing the console market is too high to ignore.

#10 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@niamahai
 
Let's just hope they won't half-ass the controls. Diablo 1 on Playstation 1 was horrid.
 
But with some nice reactive dualstick shooter-like controls with hotkeys and mutators. That'd definitely be awesome.
 
They should support the 360 pad natively out of the box for the PC SKU. Already do all the R'n'D for kickass gamepad support.
#11 Edited by NickL (2260 posts) -

I was about to write a lengthy post about why this is a stupid idea, but completely changing what defines diablo is so absurd that it doesn't deserve a lengthy post.

So I will just leave it with "NO"

edit: and if you are talking about the console version, then who cares. No fan of this genre would play this game on a console so the control scheme doesn't really matter.

#12 Posted by ajamafalous (12444 posts) -

Lol, absolutely not. It's very clear that you haven't played Diablo II at a high level if the thought even crossed your mind.

#13 Posted by Scrawnto (2496 posts) -

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

#14 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -

The facebuttons would have to be mutators for the shoulderbuttons though. More like mutator toggles.

#15 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Scrawnto said:

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

I can shoot pretty tiny and fast moving particles in Geometry Wars across the screen. Of course there I can keep on shooting and shooting. So there would have to be some sort of 'laser sight line' aiming aid projected on the ground.
 
Even most AoE's could do easily without a cursor. Point-blank AoE and Cone AoE - no problem.
 
The only problem, which needs solving, is the lack of sufficient convenient hotkeys for dualstick shooter controls. Only the shoulder buttons are placed suitably. There are solutions though. Pretty certain toggling skillsets via facebuttons would work just fine. And autoattack on flicking the right stick.
#16 Posted by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@Seppli said:
@Scrawnto said:

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

I can shoot pretty tiny and fast moving particles in Geometry Wars across the screen. Of course there I can keep on shooting and shooting. So there would have to be some sort of 'laser sight line' aiming aid projected on the ground.  Even most AoE's could do easily without a cursor. Point-blank AoE and Cone AoE - no problem.  The only problem, which needs solving, is the lack of sufficient convenient hotkeys for dualstick shooter controls. Only the shoulder buttons are placed suitably. There are solutions though. Pretty certain toggling skillsets via facebuttons would work just fine. And autoattack on flicking the right stick.
God...
 
Please...stop talking. You even admitted to never playing a Diablo game, so you can't even fathom the amount of precision a mouse gives you for your abilities.
 
No doubt it would be playable on a controller, but no not even close to the KB + M.
#17 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:

@Seppli said:

@Scrawnto said:

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

I can shoot pretty tiny and fast moving particles in Geometry Wars across the screen. Of course there I can keep on shooting and shooting. So there would have to be some sort of 'laser sight line' aiming aid projected on the ground.  Even most AoE's could do easily without a cursor. Point-blank AoE and Cone AoE - no problem.  The only problem, which needs solving, is the lack of sufficient convenient hotkeys for dualstick shooter controls. Only the shoulder buttons are placed suitably. There are solutions though. Pretty certain toggling skillsets via facebuttons would work just fine. And autoattack on flicking the right stick.
God...  Please...stop talking. You even admitted to never playing a Diablo game, so you can't even fathom the amount of precision a mouse gives you for your abilities. No doubt it would be playable on a controller, but no not even close to the KB + M.
 
How does 'not having played Diablo 1 & 2' translate in 'lacking skill with KB&M'? You just don't want to think about the possibilty. Taking the easy way out. Attacking the messenger instead of tackling the message. Argumentative cripple coward.
 
Just think of dualstick shooters. You wouldn't be able to play a dualstick shooter with KB&M halfway as well as with a gamepad. Hence dualstick shooter-like controls are superior for movement and split-second quick aiming in 2D-top-down games. Precision is definitely high enough, especially taking design measures into account to aid with it.
 
Hotkeys are the only problem, because the facebuttons don't work well together with the dualstick shooter control-scheme. There are solutions to that though. Like toggling skillsets for shoulderbuttons via facebuttons mutators, if you will.
#18 Posted by Rattle618 (1504 posts) -

I voted yes just cause I thought nobody else would and also cause I recently discovered that using my controller while laying on my back is far more enjoyable than hunching over the god damned keboard for my pc games, but I know it`s the wrong answer.

#19 Edited by StarvingGamer (9078 posts) -

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

EDIT: There's a reason why snap-to-targeting in Call of Duty revolutionized console shooter controls yet has never been adopted by the series on PC.

#20 Posted by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@Seppli said:
How does 'not having played Diablo 1 & 2' translate in 'lacking skill with KB&M'? You just don't want to think about the possibilty. Taking the easy way out. Attacking the messenger instead of tackling the message. Argumentative cripple coward. Just think of dualstick shooters. You wouldn't be able to play a dualstick shooter with KB&M halfway as well as with a gamepad. Hence dualstick shooter-like controls are superior for movement and split-second quick aiming in 2D-top-down games. Precision is definitely high enough, especially taking design measures into account to aid with it.
Because you continue to talk about top-down dual stick shooters....
 
That is so off-base an equally disjointed argument could be that since you can play JRPGs with a controller to select spells from a menu you can play Diablo 1 and 2 with the same controller.
#21 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?
#22 Posted by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

But didn't you listen to him?
 
Your argument is destroyed since you can launch a hundred bullets from a ship in a top-down shooter. That means it is accurate enough. So stop being a pessimistic swine.
#23 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:
@Seppli said:
How does 'not having played Diablo 1 & 2' translate in 'lacking skill with KB&M'? You just don't want to think about the possibilty. Taking the easy way out. Attacking the messenger instead of tackling the message. Argumentative cripple coward. Just think of dualstick shooters. You wouldn't be able to play a dualstick shooter with KB&M halfway as well as with a gamepad. Hence dualstick shooter-like controls are superior for movement and split-second quick aiming in 2D-top-down games. Precision is definitely high enough, especially taking design measures into account to aid with it.
Because you continue to talk about top-down dual stick shooters....  That is so off-base an equally disjointed argument could be that since you can play JRPGs with a controller to select spells from a menu you can play Diablo 1 and 2 with the same controller.
Maybe if you lack imagination. If a queer thought does stop your higher brainfunctions dead in their tracks... well. Then you're you and not fit for this discussion.
#24 Posted by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@Seppli said:
@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?
But you have abilities and spells that you place on screen.
 
There would be a cursor eventually.
 
And no AoE cones aren't the same thing...
#25 Posted by Shirogane (3593 posts) -

Yeah sure, have fun screwing up your teleport, or not doing it properly or quickly enough, or similar spell, and dieing a horrible death....on your hardcore character.
#26 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:
@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

But didn't you listen to him?  Your argument is destroyed since you can launch a hundred bullets from a ship in a top-down shooter. That means it is accurate enough. So stop being a pessimistic swine.
A simple 'laser sight like' aiming aid projected from the character at all times would circumvent the lack of that. Targeted spells could be solved by holding down the button and see a cross-line move quickly along the target line - just release button at the right range. Voila. 
 
A far from clumsy solution.
#27 Posted by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@Seppli said:
A simple 'laser sight like' aiming aid projected from the character at all times would circumvent the lack of that. Targeted spells could be solved by holding down the button and see a cross-line move quickly along the target line - just release button at the right range. Voila.   A far from clumsy solution.
Okay. Now you're trolling.
 
have fun then.
#28 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?
But you have abilities and spells that you place on screen. There would be a cursor eventually.  And no AoE cones aren't the same thing...
Yeah - targeted AoE you'll drag the reticule from under your character. It all depends on the responsiveness, it could be lightning quick if developers would believe we had the dexteriy to deal with it. Most don't.
 
Or same as the other suggestion. Hold and release.
 
I tell you. Movement and quick-aim is obviously superior on a dualstick gamepad. Precision and lack of hotkeys and target AoE need design solutions. Solve them and Dualstick Shooter controls are overall superior to KB&M for Diablo 3 and other game's of its ilk.
#29 Edited by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@Seppli said:

@Doctorchimp said:

@Seppli said:
@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?
But you have abilities and spells that you place on screen. There would be a cursor eventually.  And no AoE cones aren't the same thing...
Yeah - targeted AoE you'll drag the reticule from under your character. It all depends on the responsiveness, it could be lightning quick if developers would believe we had the dexteriy to deal with it. Most don't.
Guess what....
 
It's lightning quick with a mouse. So I guess you just admitted the controller isn't as good as the keyboard and mouse....
#30 Posted by StarvingGamer (9078 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

#31 Posted by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

@Seppli said:
A simple 'laser sight like' aiming aid projected from the character at all times would circumvent the lack of that. Targeted spells could be solved by holding down the button and see a cross-line move quickly along the target line - just release button at the right range. Voila.   A far from clumsy solution.
 
I think you can apologize now.
 
He just gave you his far from clumsy solution.
#32 Posted by ryanwho (12012 posts) -

lol

#33 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Doctorchimp said:
@Seppli said:
@Doctorchimp said:
@Seppli said:
@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?
But you have abilities and spells that you place on screen. There would be a cursor eventually.  And no AoE cones aren't the same thing...
Yeah - targeted AoE you'll drag the reticule from under your character. It all depends on the responsiveness, it could be lightning quick if developers would believe we had the dexteriy to deal with it. Most don't.
Guess what....  It's lightning quick with a mouse. So I guess you just admitted the controller isn't as good as the controller...
Guess what. Kiting would be effortless. Casting on the run would be effortless. Active Dodging skill would be effortless. Obviously there are problems, since nobody has designed this type of game with the full complexity for a gamepad yet; but if you would - it can be done.
 
Personally - I believe it can be done and improve the genre itself. Quicker and more precise and allow for a higher 'skill-factor' and more dynamic encounters. Just re-tailor the principles of dualstick shooters with a revultionary control scheme.
 
Think about the Playstation Vita's multi-touch touchpad. Such a thing might be part of PS4's gamepad. You'll be able to have dualstick controls and a double cursor at the same time. But that's future talk. Even on current gamepads, it can be done.
#34 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls.
 
Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!
#35 Posted by StarvingGamer (9078 posts) -

@Seppli: As someone who sunk thousands of hours into Diablo 2, with my favorite classes being fire wall sorc (before the nerfs), charged bolt sorc, javazon and bowazon (all range), I never had any issues with kiting or casting on the run. And I don't know if you would consider teleport for the sorc an active dodging skill but I can't imagine having to precisely teleport through hordes of enemies using an analog stick.

#36 Posted by niamahai (1409 posts) -

i will admit, Dualstick shooter to a loot driven dungeon hack&slash game would be fun to play. But to put it in D3, Blizz have to redesign how attacking works. 1click-per-mob don't exactly translate well to how dualstick shooter scheme.

#37 Posted by Doctorchimp (4163 posts) -
@Seppli said:
I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting.  Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!
How does hold and release even come close to tapping a hot key and clicking a guy with your mouse.
 
That's about as instant as you can get.
 
Also I have no clue why you are so stuck on this move business. You click a spot on the map for your character to run to and activate your abilities while he runs by himself...
#38 Posted by StarvingGamer (9078 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

#39 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@StarvingGamer
 
Solution 1 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. Reticule appears under characters feet. Drag to location. Release button. Teleport success.
Solution 2 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. A intersecting line with your aim assist laser sight line shoots along the line. Release button at appropriate range. Teleport success. (Imagine a lasersight like line projected from your character to where you look with the second stick. Similarly to a golf-game swingmeter a intersecting line shoots out along that line. All you need to do is to get the timing down - It would be faster than using a cursor with a mouse. Effortless and player-skillbased.)
#40 Edited by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

It does on consoles. And no, you cannot kite as you would with dualstick shooter controls. It'd be a whole other level of kiting.
 
And we're talking of Topdown 2D, not FPS 3D. I don'get how Counterstrike relates to this thread.
#41 Posted by Scrawnto (2496 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@Scrawnto said:

@Seppli: But the analog isn't fine enough to target specific distances fast enough. Have you seen how accurately people can aim a mouse cursor? It's pretty crazy. A joystick wouldn't be able to keep up. For illustration, have you ever had to navigate a menu with a cursor controlled by a joystick? It's not nearly as fast as using a mouse, and that's the kind of targeting you have to do for teleports and leaps and such, which have variable length in Diablo. You have to target very specific points on a screen, where analog sticks are mostly good for choosing a direction.

I can shoot pretty tiny and fast moving particles in Geometry Wars across the screen. Of course there I can keep on shooting and shooting. So there would have to be some sort of 'laser sight line' aiming aid projected on the ground. Even most AoE's could do easily without a cursor. Point-blank AoE and Cone AoE - no problem. The only problem, which needs solving, is the lack of sufficient convenient hotkeys for dualstick shooter controls. Only the shoulder buttons are placed suitably. There are solutions though. Pretty certain toggling skillsets via facebuttons would work just fine. And autoattack on flicking the right stick.

That's just it; a laser sight line indicates only direction, not distance. The same goes for cones and point blank. None of those make sense for jumping in and out of groups, where specific placement, including distance matter, and those kind of movement techniques are pretty central to Diablo's style of play. You could make all leaps/teleports/etc. have a fixed length ala dodge rolls in Bastion, but that would be a new limit imposed on the game. Sure, you could emulate that kind of control by slowing things down a bit and giving the player a joystick controlled cursor (Which will never be as accurate as a mouse, or else people would navigate the web with thumbsticks more), but that would really kill the pacing that long time fans want. If they ever make a console version, they can do what they want, but I want my PC Diablo fast and furious with a mouse and keyboard.

#42 Posted by StarvingGamer (9078 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer: Solution 1 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. Reticule appears under characters feet. Drag to location. Release button. Teleport success. Solution 2 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. A intersecting line with your aim assist laser sight line shoots along the line. Release button at appropriate range. Teleport success. (Imagine a lasersight like line projected from your character to where you look with the second stick. Similarly to a golf-game swingmeter a intersecting line shoots out along that line. All you need to do is to get the timing down - It would be faster than using a cursor with a mouse. Effortless and player-skillbased.)

Hold and release are 2 separate command inputs, you are already making every teleport take twice as long MINIMUM of a teleport in Diablo 3. I can, with sufficient accuracy, hit ~3 target areas within a second using keyboard and mouse, or ~5 target areas with a significant drop in accuracy. Pick up a controller and think about what you're suggesting. Could you accomplish the same?

#43 Posted by StarvingGamer (9078 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

It does on consoles. And no, you cannot kite as you would with dualstick shooter controls. It'd be a whole other level of kiting.

You're ignoring my Counter Strike comparison. That's the crux of this entire argument.

#44 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer: Solution 1 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. Reticule appears under characters feet. Drag to location. Release button. Teleport success. Solution 2 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. A intersecting line with your aim assist laser sight line shoots along the line. Release button at appropriate range. Teleport success. (Imagine a lasersight like line projected from your character to where you look with the second stick. Similarly to a golf-game swingmeter a intersecting line shoots out along that line. All you need to do is to get the timing down - It would be faster than using a cursor with a mouse. Effortless and player-skillbased.)

Hold and release are 2 separate command inputs, you are already making every teleport take twice as long MINIMUM of a teleport in Diablo 3. I can, with sufficient accuracy, hit ~3 target areas within a second using keyboard and mouse, or ~5 target areas with a significant drop in accuracy. Pick up a controller and think about what you're suggesting. Could you accomplish the same?

But there's no cursor. It's just a line coming out of your character. It instantly has maxium range. The marker that shoots along that line just has to be as quick as your mousecursor would travel the distance. Yeah - it take more skill to execute perfectly, but it would feel more organic and natural and could be just as quick. Whilst allowing for full control movement while executing.
#45 Posted by The_Nubster (2542 posts) -
@Seppli said:
@StarvingGamer:   Solution 1 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. Reticule appears under characters feet. Drag to location. Release button. Teleport success. Solution 2 : Tap facebutton to toggle shoulderbuttons to skillset with teleport. Hold teleport shoulderbutton. A intersecting line with your aim assist laser sight line shoots along the line. Release button at appropriate range. Teleport success. (Imagine a lasersight like line projected from your character to where you look with the second stick. Similarly to a golf-game swingmeter a intersecting line shoots out along that line. All you need to do is to get the timing down - It would be faster than using a cursor with a mouse. Effortless and player-skillbased.)
I don't think you understand how quickly you can die in Diablo 2. It can happen in less than a second, and the precision of- NO FUCK OFF YOU TROLL I'M NOT BECOMING A PART OF THIS.
#46 Edited by Scrawnto (2496 posts) -

@StarvingGamer: Or even a web-browsing comparison. Would someone navigate the web with thumbsticks replacing the mouse? No! The accuracy and speed loss would be horrible. Sure you could do a hold and release thing to time the execution of a click moving along a "laser sight", but it would be so inaccurate and slow, even in something as relatively relaxed as web-browsing.

@Seppli: The marker moving along the line is a timing thing, which simply wouldn't work for short and long distance actions. With a mouse, I simply move a distance that corresponds to the distance I want in the game. It's a subconscious thing. Hell, people have trouble timing "active reloads" in Gears of War. Targeting moves like that would be preposterous. If you missed the distance you wanted, you would waste your attack, or you would have to wait for the marker to bounce back or something. With a mouse you can track things moving away or towards you. There are so many problems with your idea, I can't even list them all.

#47 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@Seppli said:

@StarvingGamer said:

You would never be able to move the cursor fast enough. Imagine if there was cross-platform Halo multiplayer between Xbox and PC. The PC players would be laughing all the way to the... whatever the end goal in Halo multiplayer is.

It may work for a simple character build that used no targeted abilities, but I can't think of a single class like that in D2 except maybe a chargeadin? It's true that D3 will have fewer active abilities, I believe that under the current build each character can select 3 passive and 6 active abilities at a time, but precision has always been the real issue. It's the same reason why every RTS made for console feels either incredibly dumbed down or broken as fuck.

There is no cursor. There is dualstick shooter controls. Did you never play a modern dualstick shooter? Like Super Stardust HD or Geometry Wars?

Yes I have, I love dual stick shooters starting with Everyday Shooter. I even buy them for iPad even though the interface is fucking terrible. But the cursor in D3 is not being used simply for directionality, it is also being used for range. Many spells and abilities in Diablo games require you to determine precisely which spot on the screen you want the effect to land. It is true you could add an analog-controlled cursor for these types of spells, but you will never be able to achieve the combination of speed and precision that a mouse cursor provides in these situations. The precision required really is more akin to a game like Counter Strike as opposed to any dual stick shooter, and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that dual analog controls would be just as good for CS as mouse & keyboard.

I provided a design solution for range (one of many). 'Hold n Release' the button. With a decent GUI, that would work perfectly. And likely even more quickly than the average KB&M player could. And you could do so on the move. While kiting. Which you wouldn't be able to with classic KB&M diablo controls. Close your eyes and share my dream! DREAM DAMMIT!

If you can honestly say that you believe "Hold n Release" would be just as accurate in a game like Counter Strike as mouse & keyboard then this conversation has reached its conclusion. And as I said in my above post, I can already do all the kiting I want to with mouse & keyboard so basically, you're trying so solve a problem that doesn't exist.

It does on consoles. And no, you cannot kite as you would with dualstick shooter controls. It'd be a whole other level of kiting.

You're ignoring my Counter Strike comparison. That's the crux of this entire argument.

No I don't. Imagine you target a enemy on the far left of the screen. Then you want to teleport to the far right of the screen. You cursor has to travel the entire distance. Dualstick shooter controls it's instant from left to right. That will make up easily for whatever speedbonus you believe to have - as long as the hold and release GUI-thing shoots out lightning quick along the aim-line.
 
All the while you have full movement control too.
#48 Posted by Lagaroth (172 posts) -

Saying it would feel more natural depends entirely on what the person in control is used to. I make no claim to understand what exactly a method of input feeling 'organic' is. Maybe for you it is a better way, but apparently for 91.7% of people it isn't.

#49 Posted by StarvingGamer (9078 posts) -

@Scrawnto said:

@StarvingGamer: Or even a web-browsing comparison. Would someone navigate the web with thumbsticks replacing the mouse? No! The accuracy and speed loss would be horrible. Sure you could do a hold and release thing to time the execution of a click moving along a "laser sight", but it would be so inaccurate and slow, even in something as relatively relaxed as web-browsing.

That's an amazingly good point.

@Seppli: You're still ignoring my Counter Strike comparison which means you either have no counter argument or are just trolling. It's probably the latter which makes me an idiot for falling for it. All well, it's not like I have anything better to do when I'm at work.

#50 Posted by Seppli (11233 posts) -
@Scrawnto said:

@StarvingGamer: Or even a web-browsing comparison. Would someone navigate the web with thumbsticks replacing the mouse? No! The accuracy and speed loss would be horrible. Sure you could do a hold and release thing to time the execution of a click moving along a "laser sight", but it would be so inaccurate and slow, even in something as relatively relaxed as web-browsing.

Now you're pulling 'facts' out of your ass. The aiming line is definitely quicker than the cursor. Now the 'range ping' from 'Hold n Release' has to move as quickly as the average mousecursor. That's fast. True. It will take skill to execute perfectly (ain't that more fun than just pointing and clicking too?).
 
There's no reason that it should be slower than KB&M. You just say that because you've got the attitude of 'gamepads can't do it'. I have the opposite attitude. Yes - I can!

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