FOR the LAST time, DIABLO 3 IS more customizable than D2

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#51 Posted by StarvingGamer (8456 posts) -

@Azteck: That is completely incorrect. With ~120 active skills and ~15 passive buffs to choose from per class, even a cursory glance makes the following possible roles obvious:

Barbarian: Active DPS / CC / Tank

Demon Hunter: Active DPS / Passive DPS / CC

Monk: Active DPS / CC / Tank / Healer

Witchdoctor: Active DPS / Passive DPS / CC

Wizard: Active DPS / Passive DPS / CC / Tank

Of course the level of freedom that exists between skill selection and itemization means that players will be able to go all in on a role or create their own unique hybrid build. I look at the D3 skill calculator and almost feel crippled by the impossibly large number of options available to me.

#52 Posted by endless_void (706 posts) -

The information in the OP is factual and it shows that more customization can be done in D3. Honestly anyone that disagrees with it is too dumb to read it.

#53 Posted by Bleshoo (142 posts) -

Crispin Freeman as the voice of the male wizard has me sold.

#54 Posted by Azteck (7449 posts) -
@StarvingGamer: Well that certainly eases my mind a bit. Good to know
#55 Posted by toshi0815 (55 posts) -

@StarvingGamer said:

@toshi0815 said:

How cool would it be to play a sorceress that mastered firewall, blizzard, chain lightning, enchant, and static field all at the same time? That sounds pretty darned fun!

That's not cool at all. It means you don't have to think about where to spend your points in order to get a decent character, but you'll be a killing machine no matter what you do.

No it doesn't. It just means you won't end up with a completely worthless character because you didn't look up a FAQ online to tell you the two exact ways you have to spend every single stat/skill point for your class.

Nope, never looked up character builds for D2 either.

You needed to look up item lists and skill calculators, if you wanted a character that was going to beat hell difficulty, but that careful planning was part of the fun for me.

#56 Posted by StarvingGamer (8456 posts) -

@toshi0815 said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@toshi0815 said:

How cool would it be to play a sorceress that mastered firewall, blizzard, chain lightning, enchant, and static field all at the same time? That sounds pretty darned fun!

That's not cool at all. It means you don't have to think about where to spend your points in order to get a decent character, but you'll be a killing machine no matter what you do.

No it doesn't. It just means you won't end up with a completely worthless character because you didn't look up a FAQ online to tell you the two exact ways you have to spend every single stat/skill point for your class.

Nope, never looked up character builds for D2 either.

You needed to look up item lists and skill calculators, if you wanted a character that was going to beat hell difficulty, but that careful planning was part of the fun for me.

And for D3 you're going to need to look up item lists and skill calculators, if you want a character that can beat inferno difficulty, so that careful planning can still be part of the fun for you.

But the benefit is that now you won't have to delete a character because you spent 10 points on Energy before you knew what was going on.

#57 Posted by gamefreak9 (2392 posts) -

@StarvingGamer said:

@toshi0815 said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@toshi0815 said:

How cool would it be to play a sorceress that mastered firewall, blizzard, chain lightning, enchant, and static field all at the same time? That sounds pretty darned fun!

That's not cool at all. It means you don't have to think about where to spend your points in order to get a decent character, but you'll be a killing machine no matter what you do.

No it doesn't. It just means you won't end up with a completely worthless character because you didn't look up a FAQ online to tell you the two exact ways you have to spend every single stat/skill point for your class.

Nope, never looked up character builds for D2 either.

You needed to look up item lists and skill calculators, if you wanted a character that was going to beat hell difficulty, but that careful planning was part of the fun for me.

And for D3 you're going to need to look up item lists and skill calculators, if you want a character that can beat inferno difficulty, so that careful planning can still be part of the fun for you.

But the benefit is that now you won't have to delete a character because you spent 10 points on Energy before you knew what was going on.

i'm not really sure you need to look up builds... i'm under the impression a wide variety of them are very viable, I mean as long as you don't only have rage consumption(barb) skills I imagine its fine. Or for the demon hunter you probably should have a balance between red and blu skills otherwise some of that mana goes to waste.

#58 Posted by Breadfan (6590 posts) -
@Phatmac said:

Torchlight 2 is better.

Those are fighting words.
#59 Posted by gamefreak9 (2392 posts) -

@Breadfan said:

@Phatmac said:

Torchlight 2 is better.

Those are fighting words.

lol Torchlight 2 might be fun... but It won't be close to Diablo.

#60 Posted by Beb (259 posts) -

The linear way that skill unlocks work as you level up makes leveling up a passive experience, which makes it less fun, for me.

If a choice has no lasting consequences, then it is not a meaningful choice. If it is 'easy' for me to see your character, and then switch mine (of the same class) to copy yours, then player characters (of the same class) are effectively all the same, which removes any sense of player agency or ownership.

They are basically putting the emphasis on items (gear/gems/etc) which is transient and drops randomly. So everyone is basically the same, except for random trivial differences in items.

The game looks great, but at this point I am wondering what gameplay is left? What can I do as a player than makes a meaningful difference from others?

#61 Posted by JM12088 (40 posts) -

I like it. Means if i join a group now i wont get nerds complaining about my build and telling me i did it wrong cause i don't have +3 on my str or whatever sad little number there getting a boner over these days. Means i can play how i like and change on the fly and i don't have to stick to some boring old tree that everyone uses just to get into a party.

#62 Posted by StarvingGamer (8456 posts) -

@gamefreak9: From the way Blizzard has been talking up Inferno difficulty, I don't think you'll find it easy to succeed unless you're planning your builds carefully to make sure you have synergy between your active and passive skills. The new tag line is "You will die" after all, but I guess we won't know until it's actually out.

#63 Posted by Brodehouse (10105 posts) -

I just wonder about people who think the spreadsheet shuffling is the BEST part about video games. That the numbers on the spreadsheet have value beyond their application.

This is how JRPGs went to you starting with 50 HP to starting with 300 HP to starting with 800 HP and so on. Look ma, there's more numbers!

#64 Posted by Vegetable_Side_Dish (1732 posts) -
@whyareyoucrouchingspock said:

Buying Torchlight II, so built in gold farming, constant online, lack of mods (you will be banned) is not a problem.

This.
#65 Posted by Phatmac (5726 posts) -

@Breadfan said:

@Phatmac said:

Torchlight 2 is better.

Those are fighting words.

Just trolling the OP. Think nothing of it.

#66 Posted by project343 (2835 posts) -

@gamefreak9: So if you want legions of exploding zombies, but it isn't a cookie-cutter build, would you still go for it?

#67 Posted by alanm26v5 (462 posts) -

@toshi0815 said:

@StarvingGamer said:

@toshi0815 said:

How cool would it be to play a sorceress that mastered firewall, blizzard, chain lightning, enchant, and static field all at the same time? That sounds pretty darned fun!

That's not cool at all. It means you don't have to think about where to spend your points in order to get a decent character, but you'll be a killing machine no matter what you do.

No it doesn't. It just means you won't end up with a completely worthless character because you didn't look up a FAQ online to tell you the two exact ways you have to spend every single stat/skill point for your class.

Nope, never looked up character builds for D2 either.

You needed to look up item lists and skill calculators, if you wanted a character that was going to beat hell difficulty, but that careful planning was part of the fun for me.

Here's my Diablo story. I played Diablo 2 back in 2000 through normal on a barbarian once with some friends over a school LAN, and I seem to remember having a good time despite not being that into RPGs at the time. I beat normal and never really had the desire to keep playing. Since then I've played several RPGs and MMOs and my mindset has changed in how I approach them probably thanks to WoW.

So I saw that Diablo 2 +LoD was only $20 online and thought to myself hey I liked this back in the day, people say it's still good, and I never played Act 5, maybe I'll check it out. I started a sorceress and went out to the first quest area, and on my way hit level 2. Ding, now I have 5 points and one skill to spend. I guess I'll make my firebolt attack stronger and give myself more mana, but I'm slightly OCD about these things so let me Google some stuff. Online I find guides that tell me the complete opposite of my intuitions and that I would be gimping myself had I spent those points. Also there are about 3 viable sorc builds that use 2-3 active skills, and they involve pooling skill points and having to research gear lists for find str and dex minimums for hypothetical gear I may or may not ever see, and none of this is hinted at in the game. And they only recently added a way to respec? I felt like I had already lost before I started as I stood tabbed out at the entrance to the Den of Evil for the last hour. Not only that, but my original barbarian probably wouldn't have been viable in nightmare of hell, so I would have had to start over back then, and that kind of bummed me out, even though he's been long gone for 12 years. Sadly I quit after about 5 minutes of actual gameplay, and will probably never see Act 5 now.

I get that some people have been playing that game ever since then, and enjoy those counter-intuitive prohibitive aspects and overcoming them. I'm glad, however, that the developers aren't making that game again. Looking forward to this one and probably even playing through multiple classes and difficulties this time. I guess that means I'm that guy they've making this game for, and you probably hate me, so I apologize.

_rain

#68 Edited by thefishofwisdom (16 posts) -

I completely agree with

#69 Posted by gamefreak9 (2392 posts) -

@project343 said:

@gamefreak9: So if you want legions of exploding zombies, but it isn't a cookie-cutter build, would you still go for it?

i'm confident that you can make a cookie-cutter build out of anything. Unless your WAYYY too picky, you can probably pick like 3-4 abilities you ABSOLUTELY must have, and then pick 2-3 more than will complement them.

#70 Posted by gamefreak9 (2392 posts) -

@StarvingGamer said:

@gamefreak9: From the way Blizzard has been talking up Inferno difficulty, I don't think you'll find it easy to succeed unless you're planning your builds carefully to make sure you have synergy between your active and passive skills. The new tag line is "You will die" after all, but I guess we won't know until it's actually out.

yeah...Inferno is getting a lot of hype... though I'm under the impression its more loot dependent over anything.

#71 Posted by SomeJerk (3357 posts) -

Diablo 3 felt a lot better after I reminded myself that Blizzard North and the talent they had are long gone and that this is a 2012 game made by 2012 standards.
 
Diablo 2 will still live on, Diablo 2 will still reign supreme, Act 3 will still be a pain in the ass, but it will still be there, as customizable and wonderful as before.
 
I heard they're adding a way for retail for single-playing types like me to actually pause the game while playing, so I'm considering buying it if I can fit it into my budget.

#72 Posted by ShadowConqueror (3080 posts) -

It seems fine to me.

#73 Posted by BionicRadd (617 posts) -

@alanm26v5: To be fair, if you just want to get through all 5 acts on Normal, you don't need to do a ton of digging. Research and careful planning come in when you are thinking about taking a character through Hell and getting to Level 99. If Normal is all you ever do in Diablo 2, it is pretty much impossible to actually build your guy wrong. You'll always have another skill point coming down the pipe.

That said, all you do with a Sorc is make sure you have a point ready to throw into Frozen Orb when you ding 30 (right? it's been forever) and then the rest of the normal game is spamming that ad nauseum. Other than that, I totally agree with your post and it is exactly why Blizzard has made the changes it's made to Diablo 3 and WoW.

Talent Trees give the ILLUSION of choice, but that's all it ever was or ever will be - an illusion.

#74 Posted by ICryCauseImEmo (522 posts) -
#75 Posted by StarvingGamer (8456 posts) -
@ICryCauseImEmo Torchlight and Titan Quest bored me to tears. Every smart update to the peripheral systems felt wasted because the core gameplay of both games was years behind what D2 did years ago.

I think I'll pass their successors. I'd rather play a modern game that evolves the genre. :D
#76 Edited by WilltheMagicAsian (1547 posts) -
#77 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

Cool story, bro.

#78 Edited by whyareyoucrouchingspock (975 posts) -

@ICryCauseImEmo said:

Grim Dawn and Torchlight 2 will be better.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crateentertainment/grim-dawn

enjoy.

I agree (at least with Torchlight II). The problem Titan Quest had was that the enviroments were too wide. With Torchlight it was much tighter.

Torchlight II could have this problem. But it was a well designed game I doubt it.

#79 Posted by phonicpod (99 posts) -

Diablo 3 just seems extremely well designed to me. You can't please everyone, and I have a feeling that more people will like the way 3 works than 2 ever did.

#80 Posted by makari (600 posts) -

I can't believe that having to grind out a new character if you make a shitty mistake and systems that were added post-launch because the core systems were fucking broken count as 'more customization' than a game with more sane quality of life implementation. What is wrong with people?

#81 Posted by planetary (355 posts) -

People are claiming the sky is falling with 1% of precincts reporting. This conversation is pointless until we've played the whole game.

#82 Posted by gamefreak9 (2392 posts) -

@whyareyoucrouchingspock said:

@ICryCauseImEmo said:

Grim Dawn and Torchlight 2 will be better.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crateentertainment/grim-dawn

enjoy.

I agree (at least with Torchlight II). The problem Titan Quest had was that the enviroments were too wide. With Torchlight it was much tighter.

Torchlight II could have this problem. But it was a well designed game I doubt it.

I promise you grim dawn will be as bad as Titan quest. The difference between bad and good design is that bad designers, would be thinking "Oh what other classes can we add?" whilst good designers will ask "how are the classes different?". This Class combining feature has NEVER worked, it was cool for instance in Neverwinter Nights 2 but at the end of the day... 90 per cent of builds used a weopon master, and 90 per cent of classes were never used because they were Inferor. If the NWN2 team could not balance it there's no way this guy who released one of the most broken(balance wise) rpgs i've ever played can pull it off.

Torchlight 2 will probably be fun like Diablo, but it is a spin off and it won't improve the genre as much and won't be as thought out, so although it will be good, I feel bad for it that it has to compete with the giant of these types of games... Diablo has had more dev input, more fan input, and more thought gone into it than ANY of these games combined, although the mechanics seem really easy, there's much more to it than what first appears. Blizzard always has a design philosophy which is something like, easy to get into, hard to master. I really enjoyed the first Torchlight, though the animals fighting was sort of pointless in the end... I did enjoy that they sell scrap, the main innovation was those scrolls like "fireball" which you picked up that you could use and even upgrade with your own skill points, though not sure how balanced that was.

#83 Edited by whyareyoucrouchingspock (975 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

@whyareyoucrouchingspock said:

@ICryCauseImEmo said:

Grim Dawn and Torchlight 2 will be better.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crateentertainment/grim-dawn

enjoy.

I agree (at least with Torchlight II). The problem Titan Quest had was that the enviroments were too wide. With Torchlight it was much tighter.

Torchlight II could have this problem. But it was a well designed game I doubt it.

I promise you grim dawn will be as bad as Titan quest. The difference between bad and good design is that bad designers, would be thinking "Oh what other classes can we add?" whilst good designers will ask "how are the classes different?". This Class combining feature has NEVER worked, it was cool for instance in Neverwinter Nights 2 but at the end of the day... 90 per cent of builds used a weopon master, and 90 per cent of classes were never used because they were Inferor. If the NWN2 team could not balance it there's no way this guy who released one of the most broken(balance wise) rpgs i've ever played can pull it off.

Torchlight 2 will probably be fun like Diablo, but it is a spin off and it won't improve the genre as much and won't be as thought out, so although it will be good, I feel bad for it that it has to compete with the giant of these types of games... Diablo has had more dev input, more fan input, and more thought gone into it than ANY of these games combined, although the mechanics seem really easy, there's much more to it than what first appears. Blizzard always has a design philosophy which is something like, easy to get into, hard to master. I really enjoyed the first Torchlight, though the animals fighting was sort of pointless in the end... I did enjoy that they sell scrap, the main innovation was those scrolls like "fireball" which you picked up that you could use and even upgrade with your own skill points, though not sure how balanced that was.

I don't think Titan Quest was bad. It was still better than the majority of RPG games. I will fund this and probably enjoy it alot.

I'm sure Diablo III will be good. But the price, the limitations and what not, Blizzard can fuckoff. I'll get more or less the same experience with Torchlight II at a lower price point, with modding ability, the ability to play offline and lan support.

#84 Posted by ICryCauseImEmo (522 posts) -

Everyone enjoys their own cup of tea. I just hope D3 is truly amazing like everyone seems to praise. The beta turned me off from buying the game. I can wait a month down the road buy torchlight 2 for 20 bucks 1/3 the price of Diablo 3. Not be forced to play online for a single player game and still get the same exact experience. Wait what was that I smell mods on the horizon? Let me rephrase that, i'll get a "better experience" while everyone else enjoy's their laggy spoon feed copy" :)

#85 Posted by Grimluck343 (1154 posts) -

@makari said:

I can't believe that having to grind out a new character if you make a shitty mistake and systems that were added post-launch because the core systems were fucking broken count as 'more customization' than a game with more sane quality of life implementation. What is wrong with people?

My favorite part of all of this is that after people BEGGED to be able to play the beta they all finally got in and then promptly turned around and bitched about everything. It's too easy. There's no customization. Why do I have to be online? The voice acting sucks. The game isn't dark enough. Why is magic find still a stat? I thought the collector's edition came with free blow jobs from Tyrael himself? WHERE'S MY BLOWJOB, TYRAEL?!

Here's a novel idea: don't like, don't buy it. And for the love of baal himself quit bitching about every little issue you have with the game. They aren't going to cave to all of your little demands and we all know that you're still going to buy it so just let it go.

#86 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

@Grimluck343 said:

WHERE'S MY BLOWJOB, TYRAEL?!

Actually, I heard the European collector's edition comes with an inflatable Tyrael love doll.

#87 Posted by emem (1971 posts) -
@ICryCauseImEmo  said: 

Everyone enjoys their own cup of tea. I just hope D3 is truly amazing like everyone seems to praise. The beta turned me off from buying the game. I can wait a month down the road buy torchlight 2 for 20 bucks 1/3 the price of Diablo 3. Not be forced to play online for a single player game and still get the same exact experience. Wait what was that I smell mods on the horizon? Let me rephrase that, i'll get a "better experience" while everyone else enjoy's their laggy spoon feed copy" :)

Well, have fun with Torchlight 2 then?
 
I played through Torchlight, had quite a bit of fun, but it never felt as "grand" as a Diablo game to me. 
 
@Grimluck343: People will always complain... the only thing I kinda agree with is that the slight cel shading combined with the more colorful design choices make the game look less dirty/dark/evil/threatening (however you want to describe it), but it still looks great and it's definitely not a reason to go mental, yep. Maybe Blizzard will allow us to use custom shaders to modify the visuals to our (my) liking, who knows... I'd appreciate it.
#88 Posted by Sjupp (1910 posts) -

@Supermarius said:

Agreed. It is less customizable. People will not have any reason to make multiple characters of a given class like they did in diablo 2.

That doesn't even make sense.

#89 Posted by Socialone (202 posts) -

OP, I fear one simple question will rule out your argumentation

Is there ANY reason to level more than one character of each class? The answer is no -- everyone gets the same face, attributes and available skills at level X. You want different skills? Swap them. Different attributes? Buy gear. There goes your ''customization''.

#90 Edited by Pr1mus (3955 posts) -

@Socialone said:

OP, I fear one simple question will rule out your argumentation

Is there ANY reason to level more than one character of each class? The answer is no -- everyone gets the same face, attributes and available skills at level X. You want different skills? Swap them. Different attributes? Buy gear. There goes your ''customization''.

cus·tom·ize

(kst-mz)tr.v. cus·tom·ized, cus·tom·iz·ing, cus·tom·iz·es

To make or alter to individual or personal specifications: customize a van.

Seems to me that diablo 3 has plenty of customization, ya know, the ability to change or "customize" your character on the fly where as diablo 2 on the other hand once you've made a decision, you are stuck with it. That is not called customization.

Having more customization in Diablo 3 is the reason why people won't have to create more than one character of each class. Diablo 2 has way less customization.

People debating about which system is better is fine and all. But at least make some effort to understand the definition of the word customization. Diablo 3 = more customization, diablo 2 = less customization and that is not up for debate. Now if you are capable of understanding this, carry on debating which game has the better system.

Edit: The word people are looking for when saying Diablo 2 had a better system is Specialization. Diablo 3 having more customization makes it a lot more user friendly and accessible. Diablo 2' specialization took the higher risk/higher reward approach. I prefer Diablo 3's way.

#91 Edited by Xeteh (52 posts) -

@Sjupp said:

@Supermarius said:

Agreed. It is less customizable. People will not have any reason to make multiple characters of a given class like they did in diablo 2.

That doesn't even make sense.

How does that not make sense? You made a character in Diablo 2 and had to commit to the stat/skill choices you made. If something changes with a patch, if you decide you don't like the route you picked or you just wanted to try something new you had to make a new character. I had so many different Barbarians because I wanted to experiment with various builds and when that got boring I'd make really random characters like a "No Vit Melee Sorceress" in Hardcore. You can't do that this time around.

@Pr1mus:

At this point you're just arguing semantics for whatever reason.

#92 Posted by alanm26v5 (462 posts) -

I've leveled more than one of the same class in an WoW, and I chose to play them differently. I think that's a different experience than at the end respeccing. I'll probably do the same in Diablo 3 if I want to play another alt after getting one of each, depending on how long I play. Maybe I'm weird though, but I just see this as more options in how to play. If you want permanence to your skill choices, then pick stuff and don't change. If you want to start your character over if you want to change it, then do so. There are supposedly +skill affixes for specific skills, not to mention the practice you'll get in going through the earlier game learning how to use your build, so it's not like you're going to be instantly awesome in a new build.

#93 Edited by Tennmuerti (8170 posts) -
@Xeteh said:

@Sjupp said:

@Supermarius said:

Agreed. It is less customizable. People will not have any reason to make multiple characters of a given class like they did in diablo 2.

That doesn't even make sense.

How does that not make sense? You made a character in Diablo 2 and had to commit to the stat/skill choices you made. If something changes with a patch, if you decide you don't like the route you picked or you just wanted to try something new you had to make a new character. I had so many different Barbarians because I wanted to experiment with various builds and when that got boring I'd make really random characters like a "No Vit Melee Sorceress" in Hardcore. You can't do that this time around.

@Pr1mus:

At this point you're just arguing semantics for whatever reason.

It's not just semantics you are actively misusing what customization means.
You can still do your weird builds if you want to,  the only big diference now is you don't have to roll a new char. The same customization can simply be performed on your current one, but you can do it.
Commintement to a build =/= customization.
It's simply a system that forces extra unecessary work, to achieve the same customization result.
The choice is still there.
Making a choice easier to perform does not invalidate it as a choice.
It would be exactly the same if D2 had a respec option.
#94 Posted by RedRavN (414 posts) -

My biggest issue, which others have also mentioned, is that you get everything when you level and can swap in and out powers as well as you want. There is no sense of commitment or fullfillment when you try a build because you can just swap and respec when you feel like it. So there is no incentive to make a new character. I bet there will be a tier list and "best builds" guides almost immediately and that most people will just end up with the same characters anyways. The idea that blizzard is going to have a whole bunch of balanced skills for players to mix and match is crazy. There will be good or bad ones.

part of the joy of an arpg for me is having a long term goal for a character and watching them slowly come into form. having a special and unique character is awesome.

I have a bad feeling that a lot of the customization is going to come from gear. A cynical person would say this is a deliberate move by blizzard to keep people spending real money in the auction house. The auction house is probably the second reason why I will not buy diablo 3 at launch.

I really want to love diablo 3 but at this point it really feels about 5 years too late. Those graphics are a disgrace in this day and age. Im not actually a graphics whore, but damn the game just looks very noticably dated, especially from a huge budget project. I just don't see what I will be missing if I dont buy the game. I can get a very similar action rpg loot grind experience elsewhere for free or cheap.

#95 Posted by Draxyle (1885 posts) -

@RedRavN:

I'm not really that passionate one way or another on this issue, but I can agree with what you're saying about the respec stuff. Being able to respec at will takes out a lot of the directive, permanence and uniqueness of your character. How is a character unique if it can morph into any other character at will without any preceding training or focus in that direction?

Sad to say it but this is a product of the times. You can't do anything that restrictive for the "mainstream" crowd with such a big budget game, or at least that's what the publishers say. It's an issue of immersion vs convenience; which is more important will certainly vary to the individual, but more likely the individual will understand convenience more. I don't think they could've gotten away with forced skill trees again, even if we wanted them to.

#96 Edited by Hitchenson (4682 posts) -

I'm getting Diablo 3, Grim Dawn and Torchlight 2. Don't really hold a massive preference to any of them, I just know I want to play all three, not so keen on PoE after playing the beta though. The D3 (open) beta was fun, videos showing harder difficulty settings sold me on it only being normal that's this maddeningly easy, besides, it's not like D2 on act 1 was any harder at all anyway. The other stuff just doesn't annoy me, I've got a very stable connection so always online isn't a concern for me and I'll just ignore the AH. Sorted. I personally like the rune system as well and after seeing a pic of the variants of gems you can get, I'm thinking more and more this is going to be a sweet Diablo game, one that like five people I know are getting, so will always be able to bro-op with friends on for a good while yet. Can't wait.

Shit's fun
#97 Posted by StarvingGamer (8456 posts) -

@RedRavN said:

The idea that blizzard is going to have a whole bunch of balanced skills for players to mix and match is crazy. There will be good or bad ones.

The reason skills weren't balanced in D2 is because they weren't scalable. Abilities were by and large made obsolete by the next tier because they were locked to fixed damage numbers. The skill system in D3 circumvents this by making all attacks a % of weapon damage. Now skills in D3 do comparable levels of damage but in different ways, making player preference the key to creating a good build. It's true that min/maxers will probably still come up with ideal builds based on massive skill synergy and optimal itemization, but the normalization of damage means that unlike in D2, sub-optimal builds will actually be viable. Clever players will be able to find unique ways to combine the 100+ skills available to each character to fit their particular playstyle.

This is where the true customization comes in. Do you like to kite your enemies in a line? Build a DH that focuses on various piercing attacks. Do you prefer to cluster up your enemies with snares? Build a DH that incorporates a lot of explosives. What if you prefer to focus on navigating the terrain? Build a DH that utilizes mobility boosters and passive DPS like traps and turrets. Want to go crazy? Build a DH that specializes in homing rockets.

Because of the massive customization options players have at their disposal, all of these builds should have the potential to deal approximate DPS and therefore be theoretically viable for Inferno. However, they will all play extremely differently allowing players to find a modus operandi that works for them. But you're right. Because of the way the various skills work, different DH builds will want to prioritize different stats on their gear meaning that's where the true ownership will come in. I don't see why that is a bad thing though. If you don't like the RMAH then don't use it. Earn your gear the old fashioned way, it's up to you.

Also I don't know why you'd want to make a new character of the same class. Why is that a good thing? Maybe I'm different from most people, but to me the fun isn't grinding from level 1-60 from Normal>Nightmare>Hell>Inferno over and over and over again. The fun is hitting that level cap and trying out as many crazy builds as I can think of to see what sticks.

#98 Posted by SonicBoyster (360 posts) -

The only thing I found fun about Diablo 2 was making new characters to try new crazy and difficult to get up-and-operational builds. Diablo 3 tells you to play through the game once with each character class and make any version of that character you want at any time provided you have the item. It also means that if you can't find a random rune that gives you the ability you are looking for you can't get the spell you want, and you're just stuck using whatever other random permutations of your class spells you have accessible to you. Making Diablo 3 even more item dependent than Diablo 2 was isn't a positive, whether it allows you greater 'customize-ability' or not (and remember, you can only customize yourself into whatever drops off of enemies now). Requiring more items means more grinding and it means you're trapped into whatever builds are optimal for your gear at any time.

Somehow or other people are skimming over the part where people are upset because there are no longer any meaningful decisions.

Making a gimped character and having to restart can be frustrating, but would you really prefer that the game put you on cruise-control and stop you from having to make any decisions at all until you just happen to come across two items with similar levels but different stats? That sounds boring as fuck to me. Clicking shit until it dies is only as entertaining as the character you are developing, and when they're all identical characters with different equipment, it might as well be a Korean MMO.

#99 Edited by gamefreak9 (2392 posts) -

@ICryCauseImEmo:

D3 won't be laggy(the beta was for them to get a taste of their server capacity, I can tell you SC2 isn't laggy at all and its the same type of servers) and saying your going to get the exact same experience from TL2 is just stupid in every possible dimension. TL2 will be good(maybe) but not nearly anywhere as well done and thought out as D3.

@alanm26v5:

Well yeah your not forced to level the same class to capped level twice but if you enjoy the leveling experience your still welcomed to do it, this system just enables you to be able to totally try any class build once you get that class to the capped level, though it does kind of imply that there's much less point in having two characters of the same class, if you want to start from a low level why not just try another class? I personally leveled all 5 to level 13 and I can vouch for all of them being great.

@RedRavN:

The RMAH is totally optional, but the one which SHOULD be exciting you is the non-real money one since it allows you to buy gear you want with in game money. The game will have its own fluid economy with supply and demand, I personally didn't think I would ever use it but in the beta, besides of having the option of rolling an item at the smith, I found a vendor that was selling pretty great sword for 3k gold but then I went to the AH and found a sword with double the DPS for 1.5k. I think that's really great that others can sell you stuff like that, its not like the old Diablo where the trading was janky and you had to go through a whole long process.

Your going in with a preconceived notion about what re-playability is. Its probably conditioning that gets us to expect to play the same character twice in games but really its not as fun, I personally finished NW2 with the exact same build twice but when I think back and recall I really beat it the same way twice because I ran out of content with my first guy, well this won't happen in D3, and if you want to play from a low level again, then they want you to try something totally different. Also since the hardcore mode and normal mode aren't mixed in any way there is also sense in making a character of each, so as far as i'm concerned you have an incentive to make 10 level 60 chars... and nobody should complain with that amount of value, especially when the fun continues when you cap, which is more than I can say than any non-mmo rpg.

Like I said earlier there will be good and bad builds but the number of good builds will outnumber ANY other rpg's viable builds because of this % system. If you haven't looked at it yet I suggest you check it out. But the bad builds won't be like other rpgs where there are spells that are clearly inferior, because ALL spells will be great and useful, its the way you pick and mix that will be inferior or superior and every spell will probably find a useful way of being applied.

@SonicBoyster:

You have more control than EVER before from ANY rpg on how weird your character can be. Blizzard has said that even the Melee sorc can get through Hell, do your research before picking and choosing things you don't understand. The decisions are just much more rooted in your gear... and no its not as much luck as you think, in the BETA in one hour you can probably get enough blues to roll about 10 items with randomized stats, and there's a good chance that the stats you want will show up. There is actually much LESS luck in building your character than ever before, I remember in D2 I found an Ice blast + 5 staff, and for the next 40 levels nothing else dropped that would help my main skill as much so I was stuck with it for countless hours... now that's luck.

@Xeteh:

I don't understand what your complaining for D3 is basically made to make life easier to players like you. Instead of making 200 new barbarians to figure out which build is best, just make 1 and never stop experimenting until your satisfied with something without feeling that all that time you spent "experimenting" was wasted because you were actually making your character stronger whilst doing it. Although you can still experiment at level 60 the incentive to experiment stops, where after every elite monster kill, you get a stackable buff that boosts drops until you log off(or die, i;m not sure) or change skills. So theoretically every time you log in you can experiment for free but once you start killing things it starts getting expensive to do so.

#100 Edited by SonicBoyster (360 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

@SonicBoyster:

You have more control than EVER before from ANY rpg on how weird your character can be. Blizzard has said that even the Melee sorc can get through Hell, do your research before picking and choosing things you don't understand. The decisions are just much more rooted in your gear... and no its not as much luck as you think, in the BETA in one hour you can probably get enough blues to roll about 10 items with randomized stats, and there's a good chance that the stats you want will show up. There is actually much LESS luck in building your character than ever before, I remember in D2 I found an Ice blast + 5 staff, and for the next 40 levels nothing else dropped that would help my main skill as much so I was stuck with it for countless hours... now that's luck.

So it's not luck, it's just random rolls. Gotcha. A melee sorc could get through hell in Diablo 2 if you had the right gear too, it just wasn't a practical build. More control than in any RPG? Hello hyperbole. What do you mean, more varied gear? Obviously without having the stats or skill trees you're limited to gear, so, I guess if the gear is nuts enough you can have a lot of control but I wouldn't put it on a level higher than, say, Final Fantasy VI, where a set of gear could straight up turn you into a super imp creature, or Diablo 2 where the right gear could turn you into a werewolf barbarian. I'm pretty sure you're the one that isn't understanding the discussion here. Nobody is saying you can't create a varied character, we're just saying that it is completely gear dependent, meaning the only thing at all special about your character is whatever had the highest stats that popped off of a monster while you were playing.

Furthermore if the gear really is as varied as you claim, the odds of you finding a better rune to upgrade the one specific form of the one specific spell you want are probably pretty bad too. It's just diablo, a bunch of numbers thrown into a hat, except this time I don't get to drive the car, I have to ride along the rails.

People like you are practical, pragmatic game players. You want to be able to get everything done in one playthrough so you don't have to go back and experiment. People like me are into RPGs because they reward experimentation and encourage you to make multiple characters which all have a different gameplay experience. It's a matter of playstyle. Diablo 2 was my kind of game, Diablo 3 is yours.

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