Loved Torchlight, liked titans quest so... Get diablo 3 I suppose

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#1 Posted by Kenobi (360 posts) -

It's just interesting to that people complain about how shallow yet polished this game is. Is it because millions of people play this but Torchlight and Titans Quest are barely acknowledge in the grand scheme.

On top of the miriad of complaints and tech issues, there are the weird conspiracies about secret blizzard loot $ plots with grinding and AH. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hI4peeO3yzY

To me this appears to be some kind of isometric WOW, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Simply put, is this a crazy, boring unbalanced game. Or does it have the character and enjoyment of other ARPGs?

#2 Edited by doobie (605 posts) -

i don't know man. i just enjoy playing it.

im not sure how you measure the depth or quantify the unbalancedness of it.

i played torchlight all the way through and as im playing diablo i've not found myself thinking 'hmmm this lacks the depth of other very similar games like torchlight' i think if i did i would put the game down and go outside for a while and pretent to smoke a cigarette as i don't smoke

#3 Edited by Tennmuerti (8005 posts) -

I'm not sure what you are even trying to state? or are you asking? It's super unclear if you are trying to dispel your own D3 reservations or commenting that people forgot about how bad the competition was.

Torchlight and Titan's Quest were balanced and non shallow? - LOOOOOOOOOOOL

Also both those games are constantly acknowledged and talked about by people in context of D3 and dungeon crawlers in general. For that matter D3 is far far less shallow in mechanics and possibilities then either of those or it's predecessor. D3 is miles beyond either Torchlight 1 or Titans Quest in all respects bar always online requirement and mod-ability of Torchlight. I dare people to go play Titan's Quest now after D3, it's an absolute snooze fest. Nor does it have any character.

Now if we start talking about Torchlight 2 there is something that actually has potential to be on the same playing field as D3.

Edit: Sorry that this post might come off as some D3 fanboyish rant, but having replayed TQ recently it's annoying to hear TQ brought up as some sort of quality measuring stick, that perception needs a quick dose of reality check imo. It was a terribly unbalanced, super slow paced, game where you mostly used 1 one ability to slowly spam through to the end one shooting most things. It was considered a passable Diablo clone at best back in the day and boy does it not hold up.

Edit2: If you are into "ARPGs" then the only major reasons I see for not buying D3 are if you have a problem with the always online scheme OR you are into modding such games.

#4 Posted by fox01313 (5061 posts) -

Best thing for you then as it sounds like you might have some reservations of it is hitting up the guest pass thread on D3 to see if there's a free one for you to try out the game. Mostly ignoring the AH makes the game pretty solid on it's own apart from the odd issue with having to be online to play a single player game.

#5 Edited by Kidavenger (3510 posts) -

Honestly, I liked the loot a lot better in Torchlight than D3, all throughout the game in Torchlight I felt like I was getting appropriate and meaningful loot drops that lasted an appropriate amount of time.

D3, the loot is too random, there is too much of it, and almost everything that does drop is never an upgrade, I'm near the end of Act 3 and I'm still using a lot of stuff that dropped in Act 1 and 2. I'm still on my first play through and I'm hoping things will get more interesting the further in I get, but D3 isn't the game I was expecting.

The auction house in D3 seems more like a band-aid fix for the game's crappy loot system, rather than a value added feature now that I've played far enough into the game and it kind of ticks me off a bit now.

Don't get me wrong, I like Diablo 3, I think it has an amazing story so far, and I haven't had lag or any other technical issues with the game, but I really think that Torchlight 2 is going to blow it out of the water when it comes out.

#6 Posted by el_tajij (707 posts) -

Diablo 3 is basically an outstanding achievement in technicality and game design. The only people I've ever seen complain about it are, to put it frank, a bunch of fucking short-sighted idiots. Complaining about server issues is fair enough, but, hey guess what? The dudes who designed the content of the game aren't responsible for the server issues, and server technology is what it is. Also, don't listen to that series of youtube videos that you posted. The only difference is, it's another fucking idiot who's can string words together well enough to be able to convince lesser idiots. I've watched them all and most of his arguments are just flat out inaccurate and wrong.

Play this game. Don't let other people's opinions rob you of one of the most fun gaming experiences in a long while.

#7 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

Diablo 3 has far more depth than either of those games.

#8 Posted by Binman88 (3684 posts) -

D3 is great fun, but I preferred my time with Titan Quest.

#9 Edited by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

If you listen to BS videos like those you will miss out on one of the best ARPG experiences ever created. Its that simple.

#10 Edited by project343 (2812 posts) -

Diablo 3 is probably a better game than Torchlight and Titan Quest, but hardly a better RPG. Polish can only get you so far when there are fundamental design follies. Buy it, sure. You'll probably enjoy it. But if I could go back, I'd retract my purchase so as to not support the many manipulative design decisions that plague this game.

@el_tajij: There are a fair number of legitimate complaints about this game that have nothing to do with server issues, FYI. I personally hate most of what this game embraces (despite enjoying the genre), but my only server complaint is that lag spikes make hardcore mode nearly unplayable.

#11 Posted by el_tajij (707 posts) -

@project343 said:

Diablo 3 is probably a better game than Torchlight and Titan Quest, but hardly a better RPG. Polish can only get you so far when there are fundamental design follies. Buy it, sure. You'll probably enjoy it. But if I could go back, I'd retract my purchase so as to not support the many manipulative design decisions that plague this game.

@el_tajij: There are a fair number of legitimate complaints about this game that have nothing to do with server issues, FYI. I personally hate most of what this game embraces (despite enjoying the genre), but my only server complaint is that lag spikes make hardcore mode nearly unplayable.

I've heard all the complaints and I haven't seen a single decent 'legitimate' complaint. The game design is super tight and almost scarily well designed. They've introduced some new things and too many people are either stuck in the past, or they had an idea of how Diablo 3 was going to play and are to stuck in their rigid expectations to embrace what's in front of them.

Manipulative design decisions? I assume you're talking about the ridiculous auction house paranoid conspiracy theory stuff that's been circulating?

#12 Edited by project343 (2812 posts) -

@el_tajij: Every complaint is a legitimate complaint. If it bugs people enough to warrant speaking out, it should be heard. And by manipulative design decisions, I'm talking about artificially lengthened leveling progression through four playthroughs and the WoW-like gear treadmill. Giving people a shortcut via dollar transactions is kind of pathetic and certainly manipulative, but it's ultimately up to the discretion of the consumer.

In other complaints, the writing is fucking abysmal, the story is cliche and predictable, and in tandem with all this, the only character that I didn't loathe or feel indifferent about was Shen (and that was mostly thanks to James Hong being James Hong). This all wouldn't be a problem if the game didn't interweave narrative into every facet of the experience--constantly reminding you how awful it is and blocking your way every step of your journey. This obtrusive narrative ultimately meshes about as well with the 'supposed-to-be random, non-linear' gameplay as pickles and peanut butter. Don't get me wrong, I love a great story. This isn't one of them. But to make matters worse, the story directly affects my gameplay experience in severely negative ways. It makes me yearn for a wholly randomized open world experience with no narrative at all: something that is much more fitting to this 'loot love story' than a straight line with a couple optional side-dungeons along the way.

But of course, you'll probably come up with some way to call my (entirely valid) complaints illegitimate. I think what Blizzard nailed is the core umph behind every spell and ability, but got real sloppy with nearly every other facet of the game. Oh, I forgot about the cinematics. Those were pretty too, like always.

#13 Posted by BigChickenDinner (766 posts) -

Enough talk. I must click now.

#14 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

@project343:

If you use the word abysmal to describe the writing in D3 your either not a gamer or your a total moron. Torchlight and Titan quest had MUCH MUCH MUCH worse writing... granted the story isn't the greatest... but complaining about the writing is just hating. The writing is fine, even witty sometimes, there's been at least 5 classic movie references instilled in the writing so far that i've noticed.

The voice cast is great all around, and the companions have somewhat interesting stories to tell, enough so that I actually listened to them. Which is more than I can say about 90% of RPG's i've played in the last 10 years.

#15 Edited by project343 (2812 posts) -

@gamefreak9: You're not wrong. Torchlight and Titan Quest had much worse writing. The difference is that I never read it in those games because it never stood in my way. You'd just take every quest you saw without pausing, then go off and kill stuff. The narrative was not the game. With Diablo 3, if the narrative isn't the game, Blizzard is certainly doing a bad job at highlighting the parts of the game that they want you to remember.

#16 Posted by Nonapod (126 posts) -

How come nobody mentions Dungeon Siege II and Borderlands? What are they, chopped liver?

But seriously, I love dungeon crawlers and Diablo 3 is a very well done one by any measure.

#17 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

@project343: I don't understand the difference... what are they doing? you can skip through everything just like you can skip it in TL and TQ.

#18 Posted by dagas (2746 posts) -

TQ had some really neat ideas like multi-class and some other things too, but it was not balanced. Some classes were just unplayable later on in the game while some made the game easy. As overhyped as I think Blizzard's games are I have to admit that they do spend a lot of money and time on balancing their games. Releasing patches even after a decade.

#19 Posted by clstirens (847 posts) -

@Nonapod said:

How come nobody mentions Dungeon Siege II and Borderlands? What are they, chopped liver?

But seriously, I love dungeon crawlers and Diablo 3 is a very well done one by any measure.

Man, I'm imagining a Borderlands game with Randomized map layouts and D3 style events... I'm salivating right now.

#20 Posted by leftie68 (215 posts) -

I "get" why some people might dislike Diablo 3. But the issues you may have with Diablo 3 (server and online issues aside) are the same problems you will have with Titan Quest and Torchlight. Say Diablo 3 isn't you cup of tea...say you don't like ARPG loot-fests...say you would rather play a game with a thought provoking story and different game play mechanics...but don't say that Titan Quest and Torchlight are "better" than Diablo 3. I love Dungeon Crawlers and spent many hours bulldozing my way through TQ and exploring the mines of Torchlight, however neither of these games can beat the balance, polish, and skill set of Diablo 3.

#21 Posted by valrog (3671 posts) -

The writing is not that bad... I enjoy the philosophical conversations with your follower...

#22 Posted by Freshbandito (654 posts) -

so far alot of people's complaints about Diablo 3 are that it does what Diablo 3 set out to do, be an addictive click fest where you grind loot to grind more loot. I love losing hours to it and I understand that's what the game was aimed at doin, to complain about it being the way it is seems like maybe it just isn't the game for these people.

#23 Posted by project343 (2812 posts) -

@gamefreak9: Constant bombardment of dialogue, far too many in-game cutscenes, auto-starting lorebooks, not enough randomly generated terrain (in service to narrative scripting), and there are so many scripted enemy encounters. I'm sure a few of these problems plague Torchlight and Titan Quest, but they weren't common enough to be distracting from the core RPG experience. It may be fun the first time around, but this narrative becomes an issue for the second and third playthroughs when all of a sudden you need to go through the same string of narrative points for the third time (collecting the pieces of the sword again, joy!) and this is only made worse when you consider you have to play through those narrative experience 4 times per class to see each class to their completion. It's both exhausting and annoying.

Like I said, I'd rather have an ARPG generated by Minecraft's biome code with randomly generated towns, quests, portal spots, world map, and loot with absolutely none of this narrative filth constantly pestering my adventures. I just don't think comprehensive narrative and supposedly-random ARPG adventures mesh well together at all; they cater to opposing gameplay mentalities and both fall flat when put together. It's the same sort of poor overarching design flaw that failed SWTOR with it's heavy use of instancing and dialogue in an wholly communal genre.

#24 Posted by ajamafalous (11849 posts) -
@el_tajij said:

Diablo 3 is basically an outstanding achievement in technicality and game design. The only people I've ever seen complain about it are, to put it frank, a bunch of fucking short-sighted idiots. Complaining about server issues is fair enough, but, hey guess what? The dudes who designed the content of the game aren't responsible for the server issues, and server technology is what it is. Also, don't listen to that series of youtube videos that you posted. The only difference is, it's another fucking idiot who's can string words together well enough to be able to convince lesser idiots. I've watched them all and most of his arguments are just flat out inaccurate and wrong.

Play this game. Don't let other people's opinions rob you of one of the most fun gaming experiences in a long while.

I lol'd because that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. None of my complaints have anything to do with server issues or "DRM" but I still have plenty of complaints about the game.
#25 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

It boils down to, "Yo, do you have 60 dollars and maybe some patience?" If you answered in the affirmative, then maybe you should play Diablo 3.

#26 Posted by Cataphract1014 (1313 posts) -
@valrog: The stories of the companions are actually pretty awesome.
#27 Posted by zityz (2360 posts) -

Titans Quest is bomb. Nothing compares yet to shield bashing dudes flying or the Dream/Defence Harbinger build of morphing into a crowd of enemies and watching dudes fly and drop like flies in a bug zapper.

Problems with TQ/IT is that wasnt "polish" but there was some bugs and stuff they didnt fix /couldnt because shortly after IT the company went under. Which is a bummer because of sometime told me that there was a 2nd Titans Quest in the works. I would be happy.

I'm excited for torchlight 2. Torchlight 1 was good but it reminded me too much of diablo 1. Same concept. Does make sense though given the Dev team behind Torchlight.

#28 Posted by valrog (3671 posts) -

@Cataphract1014 said:

@valrog: The stories of the companions are actually pretty awesome.

Yeah, and the interaction between them (Or should I say talking behind each other's backs). It's the little things that do it for me. But I also enjoy the dialogue from the main characters as well.

#29 Posted by JP_Russell (1171 posts) -

@zityz said:

Titans Quest is bomb. Nothing compares yet to shield bashing dudes flying or the Dream/Defence Harbinger build of morphing into a crowd of enemies and watching dudes fly and drop like flies in a bug zapper.

Problems with TQ/IT is that wasnt "polish" but there was some bugs and stuff they didnt fix /couldnt because shortly after IT the company went under. Which is a bummer because of sometime told me that there was a 2nd Titans Quest in the works. I would be happy.

There kind of is. The guys that made TQ formed a new company a while ago and have been working on TQ's spiritual successor, Grim Dawn. They just did a successful Kickstarter not too long ago, I think.

#30 Posted by zityz (2360 posts) -

@JP_Russell: really? oh wow I never knew that. Thank you for mentioning it i will have to look into it. Honestly, TQ/IT was my "D2" while everyone else's D2 was...well D2 Haha

#31 Posted by JP_Russell (1171 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

I'm not sure what you are even trying to state? or are you asking? It's super unclear if you are trying to dispel your own D3 reservations or commenting that people forgot about how bad the competition was.

Torchlight and Titan's Quest were balanced and non shallow? - LOOOOOOOOOOOL

Also both those games are constantly acknowledged and talked about by people in context of D3 and dungeon crawlers in general. For that matter D3 is far far less shallow in mechanics and possibilities then either of those or it's predecessor. D3 is miles beyond either Torchlight 1 or Titans Quest in all respects bar always online requirement and mod-ability of Torchlight. I dare people to go play Titan's Quest now after D3, it's an absolute snooze fest. Nor does it have any character.

Now if we start talking about Torchlight 2 there is something that actually has potential to be on the same playing field as D3.

Edit: Sorry that this post might come off as some D3 fanboyish rant, but having replayed TQ recently it's annoying to hear TQ brought up as some sort of quality measuring stick, that perception needs a quick dose of reality check imo. It was a terribly unbalanced, super slow paced, game where you mostly used 1 one ability to slowly spam through to the end one shooting most things. It was considered a passable Diablo clone at best back in the day and boy does it not hold up.

I think TQ holds up fine. Third best Diablo-style game I've played, personally (after Diablo 2 and 3, and omitting Borderlands). I agree that it can get stale more easily because they didn't do as good of a job with the feel of the combat, the pacing, the size of enemy hordes, the art direction, etc., but I think it's still an entirely competent, worthwhile game. I also think it actually has better loot and consistency of loot drops than Diablo 3 by a mile right now (which is fundamentally crazy and maddening to me). Hopefully D3's loot will continually be significantly improved even after they revamp legendaries.

#32 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

@zityz said:

Titans Quest is bomb. Nothing compares yet to shield bashing dudes flying or the Dream/Defence Harbinger build of morphing into a crowd of enemies and watching dudes fly and drop like flies in a bug zapper.

Problems with TQ/IT is that wasnt "polish" but there was some bugs and stuff they didnt fix /couldnt because shortly after IT the company went under. Which is a bummer because of sometime told me that there was a 2nd Titans Quest in the works. I would be happy.

I'm excited for torchlight 2. Torchlight 1 was good but it reminded me too much of diablo 1. Same concept. Does make sense though given the Dev team behind Torchlight.

sounds like your not playing D3 cause if you were you would not be saying what your saying.

#33 Posted by Irvandus (2826 posts) -

Yeah.

#34 Posted by Crono (2640 posts) -

I feel like the OPs post is some strange riddle. I'm not good with riddles.

#35 Posted by el_tajij (707 posts) -

@project343 said:

@el_tajij: Every complaint is a legitimate complaint. If it bugs people enough to warrant speaking out, it should be heard. And by manipulative design decisions, I'm talking about artificially lengthened leveling progression through four playthroughs and the WoW-like gear treadmill. Giving people a shortcut via dollar transactions is kind of pathetic and certainly manipulative, but it's ultimately up to the discretion of the consumer.

In other complaints, the writing is fucking abysmal, the story is cliche and predictable, and in tandem with all this, the only character that I didn't loathe or feel indifferent about was Shen (and that was mostly thanks to James Hong being James Hong). This all wouldn't be a problem if the game didn't interweave narrative into every facet of the experience--constantly reminding you how awful it is and blocking your way every step of your journey. This obtrusive narrative ultimately meshes about as well with the 'supposed-to-be random, non-linear' gameplay as pickles and peanut butter. Don't get me wrong, I love a great story. This isn't one of them. But to make matters worse, the story directly affects my gameplay experience in severely negative ways. It makes me yearn for a wholly randomized open world experience with no narrative at all: something that is much more fitting to this 'loot love story' than a straight line with a couple optional side-dungeons along the way.

But of course, you'll probably come up with some way to call my (entirely valid) complaints illegitimate. I think what Blizzard nailed is the core umph behind every spell and ability, but got real sloppy with nearly every other facet of the game. Oh, I forgot about the cinematics. Those were pretty too, like always.

So you spew out a bunch of illegitimate complaints and then say 'I'm sure you'll find someway to call them illegitimate.' Well, no kidding? Your argument is arrogant, short-sighted and misinformed. It doesn't even sound like you've played more than about 5 minutes. You deem the writing of the game as 'fucking abysmal'? Even though Blizzard have successfully managed to balance a story into a game that can be played both single player, multiplayer and with players joining here and there. It manages to keep momentum and be always moving forward. It's accessible. It's interesting. It's seamless. That is excellent writing.

Also, artificially lengthened level progression? Do you even understand the core concepts behind Diablo? Also, do you realize how many people were buying loot off 'black market' websites in Diablo 2 or duping them? I'm guessing you don't. 'Shortcutting via dollar transactions' is the way Diablo has been for the past 10+ years. I don't see the point myself, but nothing's changed in that regard.

You should probably just stick to Skyrim, it's pretty good.

#36 Posted by zityz (2360 posts) -

@gamefreak9: Nope. I'm not and I won't because I have ZERO interest in the game same way I had ZERO interest in Diablo 2. I've seen enough gameplay, "diablo boss battle" and even the end cutscene to tell me I made a good choice in not buying it and as much as I've seen of that game and people playing it. Nothing has interested me. So yes I can say those things :P

#37 Posted by project343 (2812 posts) -

@el_tajij said:

So you spew out a bunch of illegitimate complaints and then say 'I'm sure you'll find someway to call them illegitimate.' Well, no kidding? Your argument is arrogant, short-sighted and misinformed. It doesn't even sound like you've played more than about 5 minutes. You deem the writing of the game as 'fucking abysmal'? Even though Blizzard have successfully managed to balance a story into a game that can be played both single player, multiplayer and with players joining here and there. It manages to keep momentum and be always moving forward. It's accessible. It's interesting. It's seamless. That is excellent writing.

Also, artificially lengthened level progression? Do you even understand the core concepts behind Diablo? Also, do you realize how many people were buying loot off 'black market' websites in Diablo 2 or duping them? I'm guessing you don't. 'Shortcutting via dollar transactions' is the way Diablo has been for the past 10+ years. I don't see the point myself, but nothing's changed in that regard.

You should probably just stick to Skyrim, it's pretty good.

Arrogant? Sure, I can't stand people who don't put a little passion behind their words, even if it sounds hot-headed. Short-sighted and misinformed? Going to say not at all, unless you plan to explain why. And why would I bother with a response if I only played 5 minutes of the game?

Some of your points don't discount my own (accessible, seamless) and are points that I actually agree with. And others (interesting, excellent), I wholly disagree with. It's bland predictable fantasy gibbrish that exists solely to give context to the gameplay. None of the characters breach their archetypes (except, maybe the morally-ambiguous warlock fellow), some have distinct character trait contrasts (Leah... I'm really not sure if you're the most naive character I've ever seen or if you're just a walking inconsistency), most of the plot twists are predictable as fuck (like the companion who betrays you).

I'll admit, I played enough of Diablo 2 to realize that it was too horribly dated for me to continue (about 4 years ago). But I am a fan of the more recent games in this genre. Hopefully I'm still allowed to have an opinion despite not being a fan of the series. In either case, I'm a fan of the genre. The 'shortcutting via dollar transactions' argument I played down myself if you actually read my post. It wasn't one of my complaints--I was just acknowledging it's existence as an argument, and I ultimately said it's a non-issue as it's optionally up to the consumer and can be avoided.

Moving back to that point about artificially lengthened progression, I think I need to explain that point a bit more. It's a fairly abstract issue, I'll admit. In most free-form RPGs, they'll drop you in the middle of a big world and set you on your way. You take quests, kill stuff, progress in whatever manner you see fit. This free-form nature alleviates the repetition of multiple playthroughs because the player is more focused on his gear, his stats, and his skills, not on the world around him or his meaningless objectives. My problem with Diablo 3 is that with the constant barrage of scripted events, dialogue, in-engine cutscenes, scripted enemy encounters, and carefully crafted locales (as opposed to randomly generated), there is an overemphasis on the world around you, on the characters, on the objectives, on the path, on the particular events. What this ultimately amounts to is a significantly more repetitive second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, etc. playthrough; your head is focused on the 'oh right, this stupid fucking broken sword collection errand again' and not on your ever-expanding talent tree. Taken together with the fact that you need to play through the game 3-4 times to reach max level, the whole experience feels artificially lengthened. The runes are trickled out from level 30 to 60 at such a dull pace that the 3-4 playthroughs just feel entirely pointless repetitions of the same errands and moments, especially when (as I've argued above), those events and errands are just dull as fuck.

Ultimately, removing the narrative (or turning it into traditional quest text), removing scripted events, and randomizing the entire landmass would solve all these issues. With a little more character customization and these changes, Diablo 3 could be my RPG-wet dream. But alas, this is the sad reality. It just feels like modern World of Warcraft design philosophy brought into a singleplayer/cooperative RPG.

Got some attitude though. I like it. And yup, Skyrim is pretty great. Thanks, chum.

#38 Posted by yinstarrunner (1182 posts) -

It's OK.  I don't know where all this talk of "depth" is coming from, as I've put 40 hours into D3 and still haven't come close to experiencing much in the way of deep rpg mechanics.
 
The loot is mostly boring, and the drops are inconsistent.  I remember getting Titan Quest like a year ago and constantly getting new gear, trying to use it to balance my character in the best way possible.  With Diablo 3, it's just more like "Oh, this item increases my main attribute and vitality, guess I should wear that then."  The useful drops, the interesting drops, the drops that make you think about whether or not it's a good idea to replace an item with another one, are much fewer and farther between than the ones in both Torchlight and Titan's Quest, from my experience.   I go through whole acts in Diablo 3 without changing my gear once.
 
One thing I loved about Torchlight was the item augmentation, where you could take your loot and gamble to add another attribute or risk losing everything that made the item awesome in the first place.  It was the really great risk/reward, and the benefits of doing that were almost always worth it, because the variants were plentiful and interesting.  In Diablo 3, you get a crafting moneysink that makes mostly poor items (and occasionally, a pretty good one) for 4x the price you could find it on the auction house.  That's kind of disappointing.
 
My favorite part of Titan Quest was probably the leveling mechanics.  I loved the way you could blend two different classes together into something pretty unique.  I loved leveling up and fretting over which specialty or skill I would put my precious points into.  I loved looking up the tree and saying, "OK, my goal is now to reach HERE."  In Diablo 3, I'm reminded more of a Call of Duty game than an RPG.  It's a bold claim, I know, but there is no allocating points into anything, anywhere, outside of loot.  Your leveling is preset on a linear path, the number of skills you have available to you are gimped, and so it's more like you're equipping your skill "loadout" than building a real character.  This is the part I like the least, so far.
 
It's still a good game, just one that has obviously been a little "dumbed down" for wider audiences.  The combat is really, really snappy, with great feedback.  The game is hella polished in a way that is damned impressive.  But it's like a good summer popcorn flick, instead of the truly intellectually stimulating experience that it could be.  
 
Remember, we are talking about a genre of video games that are based entirely around compulsion; their goal is to  release chemicals in your brain as you pick up yellow loot like some kind of new-age drug. So if I were you, I'd take any praise of these kinds of games with a slight grain of salt.  (Sorry, addicts)

#39 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

@zityz: you've seen enough gameplay to understand okay... I will just pretend like your not a total moron and say: Good for you!

#40 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

@project343: You realize that there is randomization right? I keep running into new quests for act 1 even though i've finished it about 100 times. There's about 30 dungeons that are randomly generated per act, that wonder of exploration is still there. Only a sort of barebone infrastructure is not randomized.

#41 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

This sure is a worthwhile thread.

#42 Posted by Tordah (2471 posts) -

I admit I sort of feel the same way that Diablo 3 is somewhat shallow, especially in regards to the story, but mechanically it's simply sublime. TQ and Torchlight don't even come close to having the same amount of depth when it comes to loot drops, skills and character customization. Try playing a Torchlight character past level 40 and you'll realize that there's nothing there to keep you hooked. No interesting loot to find, no new skills to unlock, no new challenges. Nothing.
 
Also, the stories in those games were basically non-existant, so even if Diablo 3 is poor in that aspect, it still wins. 

#43 Posted by JP_Russell (1171 posts) -

@Tordah said:

I admit I sort of feel the same way that Diablo 3 is somewhat shallow, especially in regards to the story, but mechanically it's simply sublime. TQ and Torchlight don't even come close to having the same amount of depth when it comes to loot drops, skills and character customization.

I really don't understand how anyone with a clear memory of what TQ's loot drops are like can say they're worse than / not as deep as D3's. That makes no sense to me.

#44 Posted by atomic_dumpling (2458 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

Now if we start talking about Torchlight 2 there is something that actually has potential to be on the same playing field as D3.

Well, let us be realistic here: Torchlight II is a 20 bucks game. Just like Torchlight I, it is going to offer a nice alternative -- nothing more, nothing less. It is like the off-brand stuff in the super market. It's mostly fine, but the real thing just seems to be a tad better*. However, as a solo player, Torchlight II is simply way more appealing to me right now.

*once the server management stops being a hilarious trainwreck, that is

#45 Posted by project343 (2812 posts) -

@gamefreak9: I believe all the overworld is not randomized and quite a few dungeons in the world aren't randomized--to the point that a lot of the enemy spawns are exactly the same on every playthrough. It is nice that parts of the world are randomized, but it's hardly enough for this sort of game.

#46 Posted by Jimbo (9772 posts) -

I enjoyed TQ and Torchlight and could not be less interested in what Blizzard are selling.  I have no patience for not being able to access a single player game and no desire to condone games being designed around skimming off of real money player transactions.  I couldn't give less of a fuck whether anybody thinks those are 'legitimate' complaints or not.

#47 Posted by el_tajij (707 posts) -

@project343: Ok, my previous post sounded harsher than intended. But to be honest, you've ruined the game for yourself with your nit-picking. All the things you've described totally dissipate when you actually get into the game and play the thing.

You're comments on the writing being bad are just straight up wrong. The balance they have between balancing a seamless story into a multiplayer format is a gigantic achievement. 'Bland, predictable fantasy gibberish' is just straight up being negative. A lot of the dialogue is very well written, and there's a lot of depth to the world. So yeah, I would you say you're being short-sighted. You don't seem to be able to see the big picture. But then I guess, if you're the kind of person spending all their time playing games you don't like - maybe there's no hope..... If you have played more than 5 minutes which is what you said you had, you should know this game isn't for you. So..........why are you even on this forum?

#48 Posted by Tennmuerti (8005 posts) -

@atomic_dumpling said:

@Tennmuerti said:

Now if we start talking about Torchlight 2 there is something that actually has potential to be on the same playing field as D3.

Well, let us be realistic here: Torchlight II is a 20 bucks game. Just like Torchlight I, it is going to offer a nice alternative -- nothing more, nothing less. It is like the off-brand stuff in the super market. It's mostly fine, but the real thing just seems to be a tad better*. However, as a solo player, Torchlight II is simply way more appealing to me right now.

*once the server management stops being a hilarious trainwreck, that is

Yeah which is why I say "playing field" as in something with at least a comparable relative quality level. Unlike trying to compare D3 to Torchlight 1 or TQ in gameplay.

@JP_Russell: Saying third best Diablo style game is not really saying much considering the lack of such games in the first place, competition is not exactly numerous. :/ The entire pace of the game is about 2-3 times slower. It is unballanced all to hell. The world design is extremely monotonous for the most part with different zones barely altering the visiual feel, untill possibly the expansion. And you normally use and/or have access to very few abilities that you have to pretty much keep using over the entire game with your 2 classes seleceted. It is objectively a caveman now compared to D3. I enjoyed it at the time too don't get me wrong. But in no way does it hold up right now, i was snoozing at the keyboard playing it after the D3 beta.

@Jimbo said:

I enjoyed TQ and Torchlight and could not be less interested in what Blizzard are selling. I have no patience for not being able to access a single player game and no desire to condone games being designed around skimming off of real money player transactions. I couldn't give less of a fuck whether anybody thinks those are 'legitimate' complaints or not.

I agree the MMO like client server setup for D3 was a huge obstacle and a negative for me especially when you just want to jsut play SP. It's a totally valid reason not to buy the game. It was just that the sum of positives I saw after playing the beta completely outweighted this negative on the mental balance scale, at least for myself. /shrug . Now the RMAH however is wierd to see as a problem considering the game did not ship with it, it's still not even out yet and being delayed all the time, as well as the lack of any requirement to participate in it at all, the game is also hardly designed around it. One can argue that the AH is an integral part of Inferno difficulty atm, but this doesn't concern the RMAH nor does it really affect 90% of the rest of the game where even the normal AH can be easily ignored.

#49 Posted by Spankmealotus (280 posts) -

The writing isn't great although it is better than any other game in the genre and is still skip-able like the rest. The loot needs some tweaking but overall is fine. All of the things people complain about it being to WoW-like must not have played Diablo 2. If anything D3 could use to take a few things from WoW. The chat system for instance. The always online complaints are valid however I do understand why they made it the way it is. While not perfect D3 is is far and away better than any other game in the genre and I've put 248 hours into Torchlight not to mention Titan Quest and Dungeon Siege 2. Also played a lot of Borderlands but I don't really consider that the same type of experience. The only complaints I see having merit against D3 are that it's always online required and you can't mod it. For that we'll have Torchlight 2, and at $20 why wouldn't you get both. Unless you just don't like the genre of game or don't have a reliable internet connection there is no reason to not play D3. To the people complaining about the AH, you don't have to use it. I have gotten to act 2 inferno without having bought anything on the AH. Play with friends and trade drops.

#50 Posted by Nicked (246 posts) -

@el_tajij said:

@project343: Ok, my previous post sounded harsher than intended. But to be honest, you've ruined the game for yourself with your nit-picking. All the things you've described totally dissipate when you actually get into the game and play the thing.

You're comments on the writing being bad are just straight up wrong. The balance they have between balancing a seamless story into a multiplayer format is a gigantic achievement. 'Bland, predictable fantasy gibberish' is just straight up being negative. A lot of the dialogue is very well written, and there's a lot of depth to the world. So yeah, I would you say you're being short-sighted. You don't seem to be able to see the big picture. But then I guess, if you're the kind of person spending all their time playing games you don't like - maybe there's no hope..... If you have played more than 5 minutes which is what you said you had, you should know this game isn't for you. So..........why are you even on this forum?

The writing really is pretty bad. The rote story of the Special Hero Who Is The Only One Who Can Save The World is not the problem. Good defeating Evil is a story that will always be relevant and important. The problems with the writing are the failure to establish tone, the bad delivery, and occasional incoherent conversations.

The tone of the story gets pretty cheesy at times, and deadly serious at others. It's hard to develop any sort of connection with the story because of the persistent change in tone. The story contradicts itself. (This is kind of compounded by how easy the first playthrough is. I don't want to get too much into gameplay, but the game builds to a last boss who is a total pushover, robbing itself of drama.)

A lot of people have made fun of how the bad guys keep telling you their plans. This sort of delivery comes across as lazy. You can definitely chalk it up to cheesiness, but I didn't feel the cheese was played up enough (and to reiterate, the tone changes a lot). It's also very easy to see the twists and betrayals coming. Again you could say that this is an attempt at cheese, but the lack of subtlety is boring in terms of storytelling. For example, in blockbuster movies we pretty much know that the good guys are going to win, but the movie can still be exciting and tense because we aren't quite sure. Not so with Diablo 3. The game never creates tension with its story.

I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but a lot of the dialogue didn't seem to connect correctly. I remember an exchange like

Scoundrel: That dress is ugly.

Enchantress: I'm not wearing a dress.

Scoundrel: Exactly.

I understand the joke they were going for and perhaps I misremembered or I misheard (please do correct me if I did), but as is it doesn't make any sense. I can also recall conversations that didn't seem to finish. One character would say something, another would respond and the conversation would just stop abruptly. These moments stood out a lot because the story is so simple. A simple story isn't inherently bad, but when the writing is, at its best, functional, its low points are very easy to emphasize since there aren't any high points.

All that said, I thought the writing for the journals was totally functional and though I was disinterested in talking to characters, perhaps that writing is OK too. However, the writing of the main story is flat out bad.

Some people have said, 'don't play Diablo for the story', and I think that's totally unfair. This game was marketed as something serious and dark in tone, and as an RPG, a genre from which players expect a rich story. I think it's totally fair to have complaints about the story.

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