In response to the bombcast criticism of the stealth indicator.

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#51 Posted by SlashDance (1843 posts) -

I don't think this game needs any more tools than it already has. I found stealth to be painfully easy with the ability to see trough walls as much as you like and the AI being rather dumb. If anything I wish it was way harder to sneak around, at least on very hard.

Somewhat related
#52 Posted by Abendlaender (2889 posts) -

@Scrawnto said:

@kishinfoulux said:

Pretty sure their complaint wasn't whether you are in a "sneak" stance or not. It was knowing whether an enemy can see you and the game giving no indication if you are well hidden or not. From everything I've seen it seems to be a valid complaint.

I'm pretty sure you are right. I also happen to disagree with the crew, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

For me, a lot of the tension and excitement comes from not knowing if my hiding spot will be good enough, holding my breath while the guard walks by inches away. If the screen tinged blue and I could relax knowing I was essentially invisible it would take some of the fun out for me.


Yes! Yes! Yes!

I enjoy it so much that the screen doesn't say "Yeah, relax. You are now invisible. Don't worry. You'll be fine" That is just great.

#53 Posted by mosdl (3259 posts) -

@Icemael said:

@mosdl said:

@Icemael said:

If you play with your weapons sheathed for faster movement as I do, it's very hard to tell if you're in sneak mode or not. Playing non-lethally, I never have a good reason to sacrifice the extra movement speed for having my weapons ready, and it's pretty shitty that I have to either take them out or press the sneak/unsneak button whenever I'm unsure what mode I'm in. There should be some better indication.

By default there is a indicator in the lower left when you are sneaking that shows a person hunched...

I don't know how I missed that. It's pretty big too!

Easy to miss as its in your peripheral vision.

#54 Posted by Law313 (110 posts) -

@Icemael said:

If you play with your weapons sheathed for faster movement as I do, it's very hard to tell if you're in sneak mode or not. Playing non-lethally, I never have a good reason to sacrifice the extra movement speed for having my weapons ready, and it's pretty shitty that I have to either take them out or press the sneak/unsneak button whenever I'm unsure what mode I'm in. There should be some better indication.

If you were playing non-lethal, you would need your powers handy almost all the time. So, your point would be moot since the knife is ALWAYS there. Not to mention its an actual indicator you can turn on/off. I dont understand why that's hard for some people to get? And the whole argument about the blinking is just childish. THE animations are CLEARLY different.

#55 Posted by ozzdog12 (864 posts) -

@Nightriff said:

I learned that how to tell based on how he holds the knife, I thought that was easy enough.

Its super easy...I dont understand how people can't tell the difference. Also there is an indicator at the bottom left during the game when you hit B/O. Your icon crouches.... Its fine the way it is. Sometimes the GB crew stretches to find stuff wrong with games...

#56 Edited by CJduke (800 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

GB crew in general are terrible at paying attention to the games they're playing. This has been evident for a long time. Last Bombcast's comments on Xcom and to a lesser degree Dishonored just drive that point home once more. Xcom's overly long tutorial shows the player satellite launching and you can see the income increase, introduces base construction, etc. Completely forgetting a game teaching it's mechanics and then blaming the game is like their MO at this point. Dishonored has a crouch animation and stance difference as subtle as a truck hitting you in the face.

It's so silly but I get so damn irritated when I listen to the bombcast and they say stuff that is completely wrong about the games they are talking about. Maybe its because I love Dishonored so much, but damn I got so frustrated when they were talking about the game's stealth system being way outdated and unclear. I never had that feeling at all, the game's stealth works pretty damn well, not to mention as shown in this thread he holds the knife backwards for godsakes. Brad trying to say the chronicles of riddick did stealth indication better is so ridiculous the games are not even close to similar in style.

Dishonored is about using your powers and environment to be stealthy. Why on Earth would you be focused on sitting in the shadows on the street when you can teleport onto a roof? Possess a human or a rat and sneak away? I don't understand why they want the game to hold your hand and tell you "OK if you stand here it's impossible to get caught!" That would defeat the entire purpose of Dishonored

#57 Posted by Mathey (462 posts) -

I just want to chime in with agreement on the original poster's comment.

Something else that bugged me; while I enjoyed Mark of the Ninja - which the Bomb crew were using as the example of how to handle modern stealth gameplay/UI- despite its many visual cues I found it a lot more opaque and puzzle-like than Dishonored. One wrong choice and you're often dead in MotN, especially during the platformy parts (which I loathe), but I can fuckup in Dishonored and still get the job done. It just feels more intuitive and fun to me.

As always, it seems to come down to expectations and play styles.

#58 Posted by Capum15 (5002 posts) -
@CJduke said:

@Tennmuerti said:

GB crew in general are terrible at paying attention to the games they're playing. This has been evident for a long time. Last Bombcast's comments on Xcom and to a lesser degree Dishonored just drive that point home once more. Xcom's overly long tutorial shows the player satellite launching and you can see the income increase, introduces base construction, etc. Completely forgetting a game teaching it's mechanics and then blaming the game is like their MO at this point. Dishonored has a crouch animation and stance difference as subtle as a truck hitting you in the face.

It's so silly but I get so damn irritated when I listen to the bombcast and they say stuff that is completely wrong about the games they are talking about. Maybe its because I love Dishonored so much, but damn I got so frustrated when they were talking about the game's stealth system being way outdated and unclear. I never had that feeling at all, the game's stealth works pretty damn well, not to mention as shown in this thread he holds the knife backwards for godsakes. Brad trying to say the chronicles of riddick did stealth indication better is so ridiculous the games are not even close to similar in style.

Dishonored is about using your powers and environment to be stealthy. Why on Earth would you be focused on sitting in the shadows on the street when you can teleport onto a roof? Possess a human or a rat and sneak away? I don't understand why they want the game to hold your hand and tell you "OK if you stand here it's impossible to get caught!" That would defeat the entire purpose of Dishonored

I agree with stealth being pretty great (and on the annoyance felt when people forget key elements of a game). I just got finished with the third (I think) mission - the second "proper" mission  after the prison, and I have never been detected so far - No kills, never detected, only three bodies found total (all three were when I had to sleeping dart two people who were close together, but they didn't notice me. I think, anyway). I've basically spent the entire game crouched with my weapons drawn (blink and the vision powers are amazing), and I take it quite slow. I also tend to choke out as many enemies as possible, so that makes it take even longer.

Sometimes...I just feel like a (nonlethal) magic ninja. I am looking forward to a second run where I stab people, though.
#59 Edited by quimstyle (51 posts) -

WHY DONT THEY JUST PUT A BIG F****** EYE IN THE MIDDLE LIKE SKYRIM SO I DONT CONFUSE MYSELF. Seriously if you can't tell when you're sneaking without the screen graying out or a hud indicator, maybe this game isn't for you.

#60 Posted by Ping5000 (385 posts) -

And there's some light vignetting going on on the bottom of the screen to further indicate you're crouched. And there's the icon toggle if you want to be extra sure.

#61 Posted by huntad (1958 posts) -

@mordukai said:

@Icemael said:

If you play with your weapons sheathed for faster movement as I do, it's very hard to tell if you're in sneak mode or not. Playing non-lethally, I never have a good reason to sacrifice the extra movement speed for having my weapons ready, and it's pretty shitty that I have to either take them out or press the sneak/unsneak button whenever I'm unsure what mode I'm in. There should be some better indication.

To that I will agree but you do have a bone shard that negates the movement penalty. However, I have yet to play a stealth game that had a visual cue for crouching.

As far as sneaking the game wants you to rely on your wits to tell if you are hidden or not and they give you more then enough tools to figure that one. It's up to you whether or not you choose to use them.

I feel like this argument is wandering into the "Should a game handhold you or not" territory.

I have a different complaint regarding the stealth in this game. It wasn't that I couldn't tell when I was hidden, but I couldn't tell how far a guard would have to be to detect me. Sometimes I would be in shadow and a guard a good distance would see me, and sometimes I'd run out in the open to get to cover and they'd barely catch a glimpse. I feel that there is no good indication of the 'caution' state that the game obviously has, and maybe it's just because the game is so binary in terms of stealth.

So, in this sense, the game is just not telling me what I should be doing. In a game like Splinter Cell you have sound meters and light meters that let you know just how hidden you are. Even the MGS series does it well with question marks above people's head and watching the characters react to your footprints in the snow, etc.. As far as I can tell, in Dishonored the way you tell how much noise you are making is by looking at a pulsing circle forming around your feet. To tell if an enemy senses you, they are already in the process of detecting you. This seems poor.

Anyways, to make a long story short, I wish the game gave more feedback, because I feel that games in the past have done it better (not just Mark of the Ninja).

#62 Posted by mordukai (7185 posts) -

@huntad: Your issue sounds more to be with the technical side of the AI itself. TO me it seems like it's on a case by case matter. I've had missions where the guards would be almost on top of me but was not discovered and I've had missions where the guards all seems to be on crack.

#63 Posted by huntad (1958 posts) -

@mordukai: No, I mean maybe, but it's more to do with the lack of indication that I am actually hidden. If being hidden only means not being in the line of sight of enemies then it's not a great stealth system. If shadows and sound play more of a role in stealth (which they should and seemingly do) then there needs to be an easier-to-understand indication that they do. I'm sure the A.I. plays a part in this problem too, but this is also a pretty significant problem I had with this game.

#64 Posted by corruptsaves (221 posts) -

I think the stealth system is pretty balanced. I'm only a few levels in through, playing on hard but my TV just broke grrr. With the vision cones and being able to escape detection quickly there is not much of a penalty. Part of the fun will be learning how the enemies react and when it is safe for you.

However it may amp up later in the game, and if there are inconsistencies about when they see you while attempting a perfect run that would be annoying.

#65 Posted by CommanderZx2 (134 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

GB crew in general are terrible at paying attention to the games they're playing. This has been evident for a long time. Last Bombcast's comments on Xcom and to a lesser degree Dishonored just drive that point home once more. Xcom's overly long tutorial shows the player satellite launching and you can see the income increase, introduces base construction, etc. Completely forgetting a game teaching it's mechanics and then blaming the game is like their MO at this point. Dishonored has a crouch animation and stance difference as subtle as a truck hitting you in the face.

This is why I'm not a premium member and probably never will be.

#66 Posted by CannonGoose (373 posts) -

I thought they were talking about the little picture of Corvo in the corner when you're crouched and treating that as a "you are invisible" indicator. Kind of like the light on Sam Fisher's back in the recent Splinter Cell games.

If they couldn't tell the difference between the two stances though... I mean, the vignetting, weapon grip AND the stance indicator are all on screen by default and are only there when you are sneaking. Not sure how they could miss all of those so I'm going to assume they thought the former.

#67 Posted by BBQBram (2294 posts) -

If their complaint was regarding the sneak indicator; for fuck's sake, there's an icon, the way he holds the sword and even vignetting. I mean I play with all HUD elements turned off and I still have no problems with it. Even without weapons equipped there's still the vignetting so...

If they mean you should know at all times if you're visible...I understand the pleasures of a strict binary stealth system in games like MotN, but please - keep that shit out of Dishonored. Half of the fun is the tension that comes from barely sneaking past someone. I thought their major complaint with stealth games was their trial and error nature. Dishonored fixes that by being more forgiving and giving you more tools to work with and escape dangerous situations with. So then suddenly the problem is basically that the game has a learning curve. I guess they all suck at stealth, and Patrick's love for the Deus Ex-like open-ended level design and player choice is what's been keeping the game in the conversations.

I like Brad, I think he's a cool dude, but it feels like sometimes he blows shit out of proportion to justify not playing something anymore instead of just prioritizing and realizing he doesn't have the time for all games, regardless of quality.

#68 Edited by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

I thought the criticism isn't that they don't know if they are sneaking but if they are in stealth/hidden which is a harder thing to solve and that this game does not indicate well at all. There are other times when you are not sneaking yet are in stealth where the easiest example is looking around corners or above someone. It doesn't matter if you are sneaking or not you are hidden which is learned by habit-feedback instead of any other indicator.

#69 Posted by Icemael (6364 posts) -

@Law313 said:

If you were playing non-lethal, you would need your powers handy almost all the time. So, your point would be moot since the knife is ALWAYS there.

I'm not only playing non-lethally but also with no active powers. I only bring out the knife when I use the heart or sleep darts, which certainly isn't "almost all the time".

#70 Posted by Rattle618 (1456 posts) -

Im pretty sure they were talking about the game communicating to the player if he/she has been detected by the AI or not and not if you are on a stealth stance, they mentioned how on Chronicles of Riddick the UI would change to let you know you are hidden from AI.

#71 Posted by Lukeweizer (2771 posts) -

In response to your response... way to try to prove people on the internet wrong.

#72 Posted by Ghostiet (5345 posts) -

@Rattle618 said:

Im pretty sure they were talking about the game communicating to the player if he/she has been detected by the AI or not and not if you are on a stealth stance, they mentioned how on Chronicles of Riddick the UI would change to let you know you are hidden from AI.

That's the exact problem, since The Chronicles of Riddick and the Thief series are stealth games based on hiding in the shadows and muffling your sounds. Dishonored's stealth is about breaking line of sight. Introducing a clear-cut binary system would only make it easier to break the AI. Instead, it relies on the fact that you can never be a hundred percent sure that you won't be spotted, so it encourages Blinking like a motherfucker between cover or taking routes that completely avoid patrols.

#73 Posted by BlatantNinja23 (928 posts) -

the problem is a clear indicator if you are hidden.... when it comes to things like that I want the game to hold my hand. If people don't want that then maybe there should be an option.

#74 Posted by Vitor (2832 posts) -

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai: I think that it's a criticism similar to that of the difference between Blinking on a spot and Blinking up a ledge. The different indicator that appears delineates the two, but they felt it just wasn't clear enough and wish it was perhaps a different color, especially for when you're focusing on just getting around. So, their problem with the stealth indicator is that, while it can be clearly seen in screens, they think that it being even more apparent would have been helpful. It's not that the difference isn't clear when you look at it; it's whether someone feels it is clear enough when actively playing the game. I can see how some might think it's a fine enough difference to tell on the fly, but they have said that they feel otherwise.

Though, these are still just quibbles on a game we all seem to hold in high regard.

It might hold true if it acted the same. Let me explain. Take the game Brad mentioned, Escape From Butcher Bay. In that game sneaking has more to do with visibility by using lack of light. The color change is to indicate to the player that "at the moment you are not visible to the guards" which worked fine for that. Dishonored is not about that at all. Shadows are only suitable from a distance, up close they are useless. If you're close enough and in the guard's Cone of Sight then you are made no matter even if you are in the shadows. In Dishonored it's about using actual objects for cover, avoiding the guards Cone of Sight, and of course using the vertical hide spots. Why would you need a visual cue if you are already hiding behind cover.

That's a pretty good point. Disohonored doesn't really lean on it's shadow mechanic at all - it's just the GB guys applying general rules from other stealth games without considering that the mechanics might be different here.

Also, Dark Vision is a must as one of the first powers you get. It totally solves all problems of not knowing if you're going to bump into a guard around a corner or not. Once you start using that, only a lack of patience will ever get you caught.

#75 Posted by mordukai (7185 posts) -

@Vitor said:

@mordukai said:

@TruthTellah said:

@mordukai: I think that it's a criticism similar to that of the difference between Blinking on a spot and Blinking up a ledge. The different indicator that appears delineates the two, but they felt it just wasn't clear enough and wish it was perhaps a different color, especially for when you're focusing on just getting around. So, their problem with the stealth indicator is that, while it can be clearly seen in screens, they think that it being even more apparent would have been helpful. It's not that the difference isn't clear when you look at it; it's whether someone feels it is clear enough when actively playing the game. I can see how some might think it's a fine enough difference to tell on the fly, but they have said that they feel otherwise.

Though, these are still just quibbles on a game we all seem to hold in high regard.

It might hold true if it acted the same. Let me explain. Take the game Brad mentioned, Escape From Butcher Bay. In that game sneaking has more to do with visibility by using lack of light. The color change is to indicate to the player that "at the moment you are not visible to the guards" which worked fine for that. Dishonored is not about that at all. Shadows are only suitable from a distance, up close they are useless. If you're close enough and in the guard's Cone of Sight then you are made no matter even if you are in the shadows. In Dishonored it's about using actual objects for cover, avoiding the guards Cone of Sight, and of course using the vertical hide spots. Why would you need a visual cue if you are already hiding behind cover.

That's a pretty good point. Disohonored doesn't really lean on it's shadow mechanic at all - it's just the GB guys applying general rules from other stealth games without considering that the mechanics might be different here.

Also, Dark Vision is a must as one of the first powers you get. It totally solves all problems of not knowing if you're going to bump into a guard around a corner or not. Once you start using that, only a lack of patience will ever get you caught.

This is one of the main reasons why some people some can't handle stealth game.

#76 Posted by Law313 (110 posts) -

@Icemael said:

@Law313 said:

If you were playing non-lethal, you would need your powers handy almost all the time. So, your point would be moot since the knife is ALWAYS there.

I'm not only playing non-lethally but also with no active powers. I only bring out the knife when I use the heart or sleep darts, which certainly isn't "almost all the time".

I'm playing the same way now, and I see what you mean. I didn't renege on my argument that its as clear as day to me anyway. You also dont use the heart enough then either.

#77 Posted by Klei (1768 posts) -

Not only does your weapon flip, but the icon on the lower left flips to a crouched mode. If you need more of an indicator than this, it might means that you've got spoon-fed for too long with video games.

#78 Posted by Icemael (6364 posts) -

@Law313: Why would I keep the heart out all the time? I bring it out once right when I enter an area to see how many shards and runes there are and their rough location, and after that I only really bring it out when I know I'm in the rough vicinity of one to get a more exact idea of where it is.

#79 Edited by Law313 (110 posts) -

@Klei said:

Not only does your weapon flip, but the icon on the lower left flips to a crouched mode. If you need more of an indicator than this, it might means that you've got spoon-fed for too long with video games.

I KNOW dude. Its Crazy lazy on alot of people parts. The screen height lowers, your knife fucking flips, your steps are muffled, I mean COME ON! I refuse to be apart of this thread any longer. It's rather pointless, and a moot point. If you can't tell your in stealth, then its YOU with the problem, not the game.

@Icemael said:

@Law313: Why would I keep the heart out all the time? I bring it out once right when I enter an area to see how many shards and runes there are and their rough location, and after that I only really bring it out when I know I'm in the rough vicinity of one to get a more exact idea of where it is.

The heart has alot to say. More lines were recorded for that thing than any other NPC in the game. Its worth having it out, if your into the lore, and not just rushing through the game.

#80 Posted by Sunjammer (926 posts) -

TBH it didn't seem like any of the guys talking about the game knew the first thing about how it's played. Random complaints about things that aren't real, like the "stealth indicator" or how the drop assassinations didn't work (ffs I've done EPIC drop assassinations from the end of blinks into mid-air, it's one of the most satisfying things you can do). Even the bitching about how the stealth seemed inconsistent boiled down to standing in fucking front of a dude and complaining that he can see you. Begging for more of the indicators they put in Mark of the Ninja is even dumber, considering how much better that game gets in new game+ (with significantly less assists).

I have lots of bad shit to say about Dishonored but the gameplay is fantastic and all their complaints were bananas.

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