Capcom Takes "Special Loss", Blames Excessive Outsourcing

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#101 Posted by StarvingGamer (7565 posts) -

@nettacki: Necessary? Of course not. I would have loved it if Capcom put all their muscle behind a true successor to DMC3 (because fuck DMC4 but that's another discussion). That said, I really don't know that the market as a whole would have accepted it any better than they accepted DmC.

#102 Posted by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@endurancefun: No, I vaguely agree with you in ordering the combat of DMC games (3>4>DmC>1>2), but that's not what I'm talking about. DMC and Bayonetta are best-in-class as far as the entire genre is concerned, but DmC isn't far behind them and is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else in the same category. Expecting NT to go from literally worst-in-class combat (Heavenly Sword / Enslaved) to combat on-par with DMC3/4 is incredibly stupid. The fact that they managed to do as well as they did, regardless of Itsuno's involvement, is nothing short of a miracle.

As far as Human Revolution is concerned, it still seems like and incredibly unfair comparison to make. HR is a modernization, not a reboot. It takes place in the same universe within the same continuity of Deus Ex 1 & 2. That's what allowed it to maintain that tonal core that felt familliar, despite the updates and tweaks done to the gameplay formula. DmC, on the other hand, is a reimagining. From the very beginning, it was never going to line up with the previous DMC games. It was given to a developer that couldn't be more different specifically to create something new out of something old. No one's blaming the fans for not liking the new game, but no one should be blaming NT for failing to make a game that the hardcore DMC fans were demanding. There is only thing Capcom did "wrong" was decide not to make DMC5 from the outset.

Don't misunderstand me. I am a hardcore DMC fan. Super hardcore. I'm the type of person that studies crazy shit like frame data and hitboxes. I'm the type of person that uses math to calculate combos for hours before testing them in-game. But I'm also realistic. From the instant it was announced that NT would be developing DmC, I knew the game I would be getting wasn't going to be DMC5. There was no way it could be. Yes, there are plenty of valid reasons to not like DmC. I don't begrudge anyone their opinion. But anyone who actually expected NT to make a true successor to DMC3 then felt disappointed when DmC was very different, well, it's hard for me to classify them as anything other than a moron.

I'm glad that you agree on the combat. What also has to be taken into consideration here, though, are other aspects of the design. The bosses in DmC for example are horrible in my opinion. That alone completely dilutes the way I used to play these games, as there is no tension leading up to the boss or a sense of difficulty - they're giant sponges with "fuck me" lights. Personally the bosses of DMC1 are among my favorites because they're all very simple but serve very unique purposes as bosses. Too, they repeat, but that game still has a greater amount of original bosses than DmC. That's not touching upon the weapons, enemies and other aspects of DmC like the strange focus on platforming that make it hard for me to see how it's on-par with the only other games you can compare it to, as to compare it to Ninja Gaiden to me is like comparing apples and oranges. Not to say DmC is all bad, but it did miss the mark.

I feel the short conversation you just had highlights the real issue here that we've been dancing around, that DMC5 should exist and DmC is really unnecessary even to start. That is not Ninja Theory's fault, but you also have to respect that from a fan's point-of-view, this was a slap in the face. That is what I hated about this whole situation, that the old games were subjected to criticism from those who had never liked them before and who disregarded the fact that everything good in DmC was mostly from the old games. You'd think that DmC was the first of its kind in a God of War-quality series. It hits close to home for me because DMC4 was the first time I got into the series and I really enjoyed the speculation on DMC5 after that game released: lots of potential! I have no doubt Itsuno would've made a DMC3-quality game again after the failings of DMC4.

The way reviewers treated this game, by completely disrespecting the previous games, is sweeped under the rug in favor of belittling the vocal minority of fans. The reason why there is such a huge amount of them is because the fanbase is huge and so many of them hated this new game, not because DMC has a FGC level of pretentiousness in its players. These are both symptoms of Capcom's decisions, I always cringe when I see these fans getting blamed for anything, as if DMC fans are one person. It's very unfair.

While the fans may have been better off shutting up, that's a moot point. Of course they were angry and didn't want what they rightly felt was their series being completely altered to try and find a new audience. When you're rebooting a franchise, you have to take into consideration the old just as much as the new. It was a gamble to make the game this way and everything comes down to Capcom in the end. If you look even deeper, Inafune is clearly the one to blame for wanting the outsourcing in the first place.

#103 Edited by CptBedlam (4439 posts) -

Wasn't RE6 a (huge) in-house production? Dat quality!

@mrfluke said:

you guys can say how wrong i am, but whatever if ninja theory had just shut their mouth instead of badmouthing fans, that forecast and the sales would be better.

Definitely agree with this. Yes, fanboys hurt sometimes but NT made themselves look unprofessional and spiteful by responding in that derisive manner. DMC is not a "mainstream IP" like CoD where you can safely ignore the loud "core" minority solely based on the fact that the majority of your millions of customers doesn't even know videogame forums exist.

@gaff said:

2013: the year Japanese publishers start blaming western developers they contracted for their own mistakes.

That's what I thought when SE announced their disappointment with Tomb Raider sales. Their own poor attempts at making games almost purely sell on hype generated by past successes. Let's see how long they can keep it up.

#104 Edited by StarvingGamer (7565 posts) -

@endurancefun: It seems we more or less agree, so I'll just say this. Reviewers can only write to what they know. There is nothing wrong with them reviewing DmC well and using their personal experiences with previous games in the series as a comparison point. I feel that where DmC succeeded the most was in the places where it was different from the previous games. People that enjoyed this more somber, self-serious story, were treated to NT's usual excellent level of performance capture and acting. People that normally go through these types of game finding their one or two combos and spamming them over and over again were not only strongly encouraged to mix it up, but provided with one of the most intelligently designed control systems for this sort of game, making the barrier to combo badassery significantly lower. Rather than being a momentum crushing chore, the bosses in DmC were high points that creatively obfuscated their QTE's for a higher perceived degree of involvement.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of the press handled this like idiots. It's not the DMC fans' fault that DmC didn't sell well. But some of that seems to be pushback against the shift in tone that happened post-release. There's something extremely distasteful about going from, "This sucks, we're not getting the game that we want," to, "Fuck yeah! We made sure that next time you won't be getting the game that you want."

#105 Edited by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

@starvinggamer: It's hard to argue, but I never got the impression that the reviewers had played the past games. Prime example being Brad, whose last DMC game was the first one when it came out. Personally, I dislike where DmC differs from the series, I dislike the characterisation and setting, the story is extremely derivative, but up itself. It's also shockingly more buggy than DMC4 despite the extra development time and other boons it had over its direct predecessor. This is merely to illustrate why I don't respect Ninja Theory's work on the game as much as the previous ones. I was a big fan of Nero's Devil Bringer ability in DMC4, if you can lump that in with control schemes, though the open-ended nature of Dante and the bosses essentially being big playgrounds for you to find their weakness, never interrupting gameplay by obscene overuse of cutscenes, was a big positive. It was not a forgiving game, but Nero simplified it very well without diluting the combat by use of the arm... which was summarily ignored and touted as an invention of DmC. I mean, DMC4 was easy by the series' standards, I had few problems as a beginner.

In fairness, those fans were harshly treated even when they gave legitimate criticism of the game, so it may be justified in some cases that they're acting like they've "won." They've been told by members of certain forums to "cry more" because their "series is dead," I can see why they'd gloat about the news. I know this as I must've been told about ten times that my "tears were delicious" in one DmC thread. It's childish on both sides, but what I can't forgive is the lack of fact checking by the press and deriding the old games out of spite because of a vocal minority of fans. It does link in with other games like Mass Effect 3 for example, where the press refuses to acknowledge legitimacy on one side of the argument. Clearly here, that side was at least right in saying this game would be a financial failure, so the press was doing something wrong. Though maybe I'm wrong, and the game would always bomb regardless of the fans or press or Ninja Theory. In short, fuck Capcom.

#106 Edited by Nettacki (1314 posts) -

Apparently, according to Capcom's financial report, DmC has "enjoyed stable popularity in overseas markets and posted solid sales." Which seems at odds with its underwhelming performance compared to previous games in the series, let alone their own previous forecasts. Either they refuse to admit they fucked up, they made new forecasts that make the sales acceptable, or some combination of the two.

#107 Posted by sins_of_mosin (1556 posts) -

Having played DMC games in the past and now playing DmC.... I can say for me that they waited too long to do this reboot. What will go down as the main disappoint about Japan devs/pubs was the inability to change and adapt their PS2 franchises into good/great current gen games. DmC is awesome but it came out too late in this gen's life cycle. Had it come out in 2007/08 and we'd probably be on our third or fourth game in that reboot series and be loving it.

Japan loves to blame the West and until they decide to finally take the blame, they'll remain average at best.

#108 Posted by Dagbiker (6898 posts) -

@heltom92 said:

Man I'll be really disappointed if there isn't a sequel to DmC, I thought it was excellent. That thread on why they hate Ninja Theory is quite possibly the most pathetic thing I've ever seen and I really don't think an actual sequel to Devil May Cry 4 would of sold any better.

Same, after watching brad play DMC 3 it looks very similar. just even quicker menus, and easier to access weapons, no more pausing combat to switch to your pistol. The combat it self looks very much the same, just with better camera. Also the story, and writing was pretty good, and translated well into my society.

#109 Posted by golguin (3657 posts) -

@dagbiker said:

@heltom92 said:

Man I'll be really disappointed if there isn't a sequel to DmC, I thought it was excellent. That thread on why they hate Ninja Theory is quite possibly the most pathetic thing I've ever seen and I really don't think an actual sequel to Devil May Cry 4 would of sold any better.

Same, after watching brad play DMC 3 it looks very similar. just even quicker menus, and easier to access weapons, no more pausing combat to switch to your pistol. The combat it self looks very much the same, just with better camera. Also the story, and writing was pretty good, and translated well into my society.

Did I miss something? When did Brad play DMC 3? He's been playing the original DMC unless he has some secret stream going for DMC 3.

#110 Edited by Nettacki (1314 posts) -

@sins_of_mosin said:

Having played DMC games in the past and now playing DmC.... I can say for me that they waited too long to do this reboot. What will go down as the main disappoint about Japan devs/pubs was the inability to change and adapt their PS2 franchises into good/great current gen games. DmC is awesome but it came out too late in this gen's life cycle. Had it come out in 2007/08 and we'd probably be on our third or fourth game in that reboot series and be loving it.

Japan loves to blame the West and until they decide to finally take the blame, they'll remain average at best.

DMC4 is arguably a good game bogged down by its level design. The actual gameplay was great and refined to a T, but the story progression where you play through a set of levels as one character and play through the same set of levels in reverse order as another character was a point of contention that I'll admit is a legitimate flaw. Personally, I thought these particular devs were capable of adapting DMC into a great current gen game, but fell just short of attaining it. If they were given another chance to adapt it rather than have it handed off to an inferior developer gameplay-wise, then surely we'd all be singing a different tune by now.

Also, considering how much time has passed between the last game and now, I think they didn't wait long enough to do this reboot.

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