Deconstructing Dante

Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -

[Disclaimer - I have been holding off on this post for quite some time for two reasons: a) Quite a few people on the Internet are incredibly reactionary and immediately dismiss any contradictory opinions; and b) the Internet has a wonderfully short attention span. As a result, I can now stick this up without incurring as much wrath as I would have had I done so a few months back.]


In order to do any sort of reimagining regarding douchebag Dante and the DMC franchise, it’s probably best to break the game and its characters within down to the basic themes/concepts/things common in all four games of the series and then attempt to brainstorm back up from there. Now there’s a great temptation to omit DMC2 altogether from the argument because it was so colossally awful and nigh-on universally panned, not to mention being a complete departure in style for the series - and not in a good way. Quite a lot of fans prefer to block it from memory altogether, myself included.

Judging by forum posts, the majority of users here aren't exactly into the genre (though surely some of you out there played God of War?) but it might be fun to take a stab at it given the so-called "outrage" over the DmC trailer back at the 2010 Tokyo Game Show. For those uninitiated, the reaction was on the same level as when Sucker Punch rejigged Cole's look for InFamous 2's gameplay trailer reveal. They have since done a complete U-turn on it, and now the new Cole looks much more like the old, rather than someone closely resembling Nathan Drake's younger, nightclub drug-dealer brother...



So to preface here's the new Dante.



And lead designer Tameem Antoniades WHO BEARS ABSOLUTELY NO RESEMBLANCE TO THE NEW DANTE explains the reboot.



I've put waaaaaaay too much thought into this, and I've considered on more than one occasion just deleting this incoherent shit and moving on. But GDC is in full swing, so we might be hearing more about DmC in the coming days. Also, bear in mind that Capcom is taking a serious risk with this franchise by rebooting it. The worst that can happen (and may very well) is that they manage to alienate current fans without attracting a significant cache of new fans. So let's *drum roll* deconstruct Dante...

Design-y stuff:

 
 #1: General plot

Half-human, half-demon Dante runs a one-man demon-hunting mercenary outfit from a small, slightly run-down office. Antagonists are almost always focused on attainment of some sort of divine power and it's up to Dante to stop them (again). Writing is over the top and predictable. Characterization is next to nil. Setting is usually among vaguely Gothic architecture.

#2: Dante's character
 
Cocksure show-off who mouths off trash-talking wise-cracks prior to large-scale boss battles. Posture/swagger to match. He's not a particularly deep character, but the games don't demand it from him. The first installment has vague nods towards Dante having an Oedipus complex, with unintentionally hilarious results. Enjoys the company of ladies.

#3: Pre "DmC" depiction of Dante



- Red leather tailcoat; sleeves sometimes rolled up past forearm
- Black fingerless gloves
- Red or black/dark brown leather trousers with black waistcoat/vest
- White (sometimes floppy Kurt Cobain-esque) hair
- Belts and buckles galore (number and position varies from game-to-game)

#4: The handguns & sword

Both Dante’s custom twin M1911 semi automatic Ebony & Ivory pistols and his near full body length sword feature prominently on the box art, and are a staple of the series. Guns are holstered in the small of his back. Not exactly a practical place to put them, but it lets Dante whip them out in a spectacular fashion.

#5: Depiction of female NPCs

Neither recurring characters Trish (tight black corset)



nor Lady (hotpants and/or pleated mini-skirt - hard to tell)



are particularly conservative in terms of wardrobe.

#6: Level layout

Excruciatingly linear often in some badly designed castle with vague nods to Metroidvania - but not really, as the game is broken up into individual replayable chapters, so thankfully it's not open world. The first and fourth DMC suffered from the potential of getting lost wandering around Fortress 101 in the latter stages.

#7 Fixed camera angles

Self explanatory.

Gameplay stuff


#8: The difficulty

DMC as a franchise is notorious for its difficulty curve, with each playthrough unlocking harder modes for new game plus - the hardest being somewhat amusingly titled "Dante Must Die". Therein, however, lies the appeal and brings us on to the next point...

#9: The fighting system

DMC refers to itself as a 'stylish action' game, in that skillful variation in combos and a risk vs. reward system encourage the player to avoid taking damage whenever possible (especially on higher difficulties) but still keep the style meter running high. A good performance earns extra orbs, which can then be spent on the usual upgrades. As a result, it offers a fair amount of replayability (this is Capcom we're talking about - if they can't get fighting mechanics right then something is seriously wrong). Yes, orb-farming is grinding - though it is nowhere near as monotonous as it would be in JRPGs, nor is it essential to get through the game. Dante also possesses a Devil Trigger gauge. When activated it ups his movement speed, attack power and may also make a couple of other abilities available.

#10: Recurring enemies in vague order of appearance

- Stumbling shifting disproportioned Marionette-things: Slow cannon fodder. Spend a ridiculous amount of time telegraphing melee attacks. No ranged. Always in large groups.
- Grim reapers: Black cloaked flying ghosts with scythes that phase through the architecture. Often perform some sort of "blink" attack. Usually need to be taken down up close with a shotgun to the head.
- Lizards: Fast moving, humanoid in stature, charge from a distance with claw swipes. Some variants have ranged attacks. Dangerous in groups.
- Four-legged wolf-like nuisance: Usually has some sort of unexpected mid-range attack.

(There are several more enemies, of course, but these are pretty much the four main types you'll see throughout most of the games, albeit in different shapes and sizes.)

#11: Boss Fights

Large-scale, flashy and filled with Indian Jones and the Lost Ark-style orgasmic explosions. Bosses are almost always big demons that want vengeance for the actions of Dante's deceased demon knight father Sparda.

#12: Movement

Unlike what you've seen with Mario practically since day one of platformers, there is no momentum to Dante's movement. If you stop pushing the analogue stick he will almost always stop on a dime. When he [double] jumps, regardless of whether he was running normally or sped up in DT mode, he will always travel the same distance. The jump button *is* pressure sensitive from DMC3 onwards, however, so height /distance can vary slightly, but it's always exact.

#13 Sources of inspiration

Signs immediately point to John Woo and The Matrix (the latter predates the first game by a year or so) and various anime tropes. My knowledge of this particular sphere of Japanese culture is passing at best, nor have I seen DMC's animated series, but I think  the Laws of Super Robot Anime gives an easy-to-digest crash course (too big to post here), point 83 especially. In addition, Devil May Cry is allegedly a nod toward Alighieri's Divine Comedy; Dante's brother is called Vergil and Trish is sort of a diminutive form of Beatrice. Maybe it was some attempt on the developer's half to be seen as intellectual and justify the setting - who knows?

So of the above points, what needs to stay?


#3
I can't remember where I read it, but allegedly red is meant to be the 'good-guy' colour in Japan. So, the signature red coat stays. Buckles and belts need rid of altogether. Hair is debatable, but at least it isn't Space Marine.

#4
The guns. The sword needs toned down a little. Oh look, the DmC trailer has some sort of tentacle whip/lance thing. Huzzah!

#8
As said before, DMC's challenge and the enjoyment from it come from its difficulty. Yes, players might be getting their asses handed to them, but they're getting it handed in the right way. While it may be extreme, from experience it's rarely felt cheap - except when a bunch of those fucking lizards go super saiyan on you in Dante Must Die mode in a cramped space with a dodgy camera angle.

#9
In some cases the fighting system can be a little broken, and more than a couple of moves lie on the flashy rather than the pragmatic end of the scale - but overall Capcom has not failed on this front.

...And what really needs addressed?


#1
DMC games might have a ludicrous storyline, but it doesn't have to be bad. DMC3 managed to almost get it with the evil twin brother arc which, while hackneyed, stayed surprisingly strong from start to finish - not to mention the subplot concerning Lady and her antagonist father Arkham. Neither games 1, 2, nor 4 provided any incentive for the player to see the story unfold. As an aside I can barely remember what happened in 2, it really was that unengaging.

#5
When it comes to flesh-showing, less is more. Trish can still be voluptuous and 'sexy' without having to resort to something as lame as the strapless leather corset thing. In the games she's more or less Dante's personal assistant, so they could at least go for the clichéd bespectacled, hair-tied-back secretary look.
In regards to Lady, in her first appearance in DMC3 she is made out to be something of a tomboy. While only having a brief appearance in DMC4's cutscenes, she somehow became hypersexualized through the roof overnight and looks awful to boot.



Seriously, there is no need for this garish shit.


#10
The marionettes and their similar counterparts in 3 & 4 are kinda dull. I can understand the developers wanting to give the player a relatively safe punching bag at the start, but there's not much satisfaction derived from taking them out on the lower difficulties. The enemies seen in the DmC trailer do not bode well for the future of the franchise.

On first encounter, the Grim Reapers pretty much fuck the uninitiated player over as they now have to bear in mind the surroundings (which the enemies are not limited by), the fixed camera angles, and the fact that they can attack from any x, y or z angle. While the close range, last-minute sawn-off shotgun helps, it goes against the mood that the player should be able to take down any enemy with any of Dante's weapons. The fact that they're just scythe-wielding stereotypes just looks lazy too.

I don't have much beef with the Lizardmen. Sure they're kind of overcooked, but from a design perspective it gives the player a pretty clear idea what to expect with the size = threat level formula.
 
  

Because they're not humanoid in structure, the wolf things are far less interesting to fight. Non-*standard* looking enemies (i.e. anything with more than two legs) should probably be exclusive to boss fights.

#6
The chapter structure works fine and adds to the replayability, but the architecture needs mixing up. Don't give the player something grand to look at if they can't interact with it in some way.

#7
Fighting in cramped close-quarters and not having a decent field of view doth not a fun experience make.

#13
...Okay, this is where I'm stumped. If Ninja Theory really are trying to rejig Dante's backstory into something more accessible for a new audience, what's been seen so far hasn't been particularly inspiring (yes it's just a trailer, but DMC has always been a case of style over substance). Nor, indeed, is the whole 70s/80s punk rock theme...

...HOWEVER!


I am extremely intrigued from a narrative aspect by the part of the trailer where Dante is being Saw-style tortured in some sort of Gitmo Bay chamber. I seem to be in an absolute minority on this point, as everyone else has been preoccupied by the look of Dante - claiming that it's Robert Pattinson-Twilight inspired. I also want to note that I do hope that they retain Devil May Cry's trademark sense of humour. DMC3 was cheesy and super-daft with tongue firmly in cheek, but completely self-aware and all the better for it. In the other titles the light-hearted bits were intermittent (and Nero's emo grumping in DMC4 certainly did the series absolutely no favours), whereas DMC3 is more of an action comedy, if anything. Take this pre-boss fight cutscene, for example:
     
  

Now that you've all had time to cool down from the DmC outrage, feel free to add your own observations /criticism/suggestions, or just flame me if you want. And thanks for reading.
#1 Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -

[Disclaimer - I have been holding off on this post for quite some time for two reasons: a) Quite a few people on the Internet are incredibly reactionary and immediately dismiss any contradictory opinions; and b) the Internet has a wonderfully short attention span. As a result, I can now stick this up without incurring as much wrath as I would have had I done so a few months back.]


In order to do any sort of reimagining regarding douchebag Dante and the DMC franchise, it’s probably best to break the game and its characters within down to the basic themes/concepts/things common in all four games of the series and then attempt to brainstorm back up from there. Now there’s a great temptation to omit DMC2 altogether from the argument because it was so colossally awful and nigh-on universally panned, not to mention being a complete departure in style for the series - and not in a good way. Quite a lot of fans prefer to block it from memory altogether, myself included.

Judging by forum posts, the majority of users here aren't exactly into the genre (though surely some of you out there played God of War?) but it might be fun to take a stab at it given the so-called "outrage" over the DmC trailer back at the 2010 Tokyo Game Show. For those uninitiated, the reaction was on the same level as when Sucker Punch rejigged Cole's look for InFamous 2's gameplay trailer reveal. They have since done a complete U-turn on it, and now the new Cole looks much more like the old, rather than someone closely resembling Nathan Drake's younger, nightclub drug-dealer brother...



So to preface here's the new Dante.



And lead designer Tameem Antoniades WHO BEARS ABSOLUTELY NO RESEMBLANCE TO THE NEW DANTE explains the reboot.



I've put waaaaaaay too much thought into this, and I've considered on more than one occasion just deleting this incoherent shit and moving on. But GDC is in full swing, so we might be hearing more about DmC in the coming days. Also, bear in mind that Capcom is taking a serious risk with this franchise by rebooting it. The worst that can happen (and may very well) is that they manage to alienate current fans without attracting a significant cache of new fans. So let's *drum roll* deconstruct Dante...

Design-y stuff:

 
 #1: General plot

Half-human, half-demon Dante runs a one-man demon-hunting mercenary outfit from a small, slightly run-down office. Antagonists are almost always focused on attainment of some sort of divine power and it's up to Dante to stop them (again). Writing is over the top and predictable. Characterization is next to nil. Setting is usually among vaguely Gothic architecture.

#2: Dante's character
 
Cocksure show-off who mouths off trash-talking wise-cracks prior to large-scale boss battles. Posture/swagger to match. He's not a particularly deep character, but the games don't demand it from him. The first installment has vague nods towards Dante having an Oedipus complex, with unintentionally hilarious results. Enjoys the company of ladies.

#3: Pre "DmC" depiction of Dante



- Red leather tailcoat; sleeves sometimes rolled up past forearm
- Black fingerless gloves
- Red or black/dark brown leather trousers with black waistcoat/vest
- White (sometimes floppy Kurt Cobain-esque) hair
- Belts and buckles galore (number and position varies from game-to-game)

#4: The handguns & sword

Both Dante’s custom twin M1911 semi automatic Ebony & Ivory pistols and his near full body length sword feature prominently on the box art, and are a staple of the series. Guns are holstered in the small of his back. Not exactly a practical place to put them, but it lets Dante whip them out in a spectacular fashion.

#5: Depiction of female NPCs

Neither recurring characters Trish (tight black corset)



nor Lady (hotpants and/or pleated mini-skirt - hard to tell)



are particularly conservative in terms of wardrobe.

#6: Level layout

Excruciatingly linear often in some badly designed castle with vague nods to Metroidvania - but not really, as the game is broken up into individual replayable chapters, so thankfully it's not open world. The first and fourth DMC suffered from the potential of getting lost wandering around Fortress 101 in the latter stages.

#7 Fixed camera angles

Self explanatory.

Gameplay stuff


#8: The difficulty

DMC as a franchise is notorious for its difficulty curve, with each playthrough unlocking harder modes for new game plus - the hardest being somewhat amusingly titled "Dante Must Die". Therein, however, lies the appeal and brings us on to the next point...

#9: The fighting system

DMC refers to itself as a 'stylish action' game, in that skillful variation in combos and a risk vs. reward system encourage the player to avoid taking damage whenever possible (especially on higher difficulties) but still keep the style meter running high. A good performance earns extra orbs, which can then be spent on the usual upgrades. As a result, it offers a fair amount of replayability (this is Capcom we're talking about - if they can't get fighting mechanics right then something is seriously wrong). Yes, orb-farming is grinding - though it is nowhere near as monotonous as it would be in JRPGs, nor is it essential to get through the game. Dante also possesses a Devil Trigger gauge. When activated it ups his movement speed, attack power and may also make a couple of other abilities available.

#10: Recurring enemies in vague order of appearance

- Stumbling shifting disproportioned Marionette-things: Slow cannon fodder. Spend a ridiculous amount of time telegraphing melee attacks. No ranged. Always in large groups.
- Grim reapers: Black cloaked flying ghosts with scythes that phase through the architecture. Often perform some sort of "blink" attack. Usually need to be taken down up close with a shotgun to the head.
- Lizards: Fast moving, humanoid in stature, charge from a distance with claw swipes. Some variants have ranged attacks. Dangerous in groups.
- Four-legged wolf-like nuisance: Usually has some sort of unexpected mid-range attack.

(There are several more enemies, of course, but these are pretty much the four main types you'll see throughout most of the games, albeit in different shapes and sizes.)

#11: Boss Fights

Large-scale, flashy and filled with Indian Jones and the Lost Ark-style orgasmic explosions. Bosses are almost always big demons that want vengeance for the actions of Dante's deceased demon knight father Sparda.

#12: Movement

Unlike what you've seen with Mario practically since day one of platformers, there is no momentum to Dante's movement. If you stop pushing the analogue stick he will almost always stop on a dime. When he [double] jumps, regardless of whether he was running normally or sped up in DT mode, he will always travel the same distance. The jump button *is* pressure sensitive from DMC3 onwards, however, so height /distance can vary slightly, but it's always exact.

#13 Sources of inspiration

Signs immediately point to John Woo and The Matrix (the latter predates the first game by a year or so) and various anime tropes. My knowledge of this particular sphere of Japanese culture is passing at best, nor have I seen DMC's animated series, but I think  the Laws of Super Robot Anime gives an easy-to-digest crash course (too big to post here), point 83 especially. In addition, Devil May Cry is allegedly a nod toward Alighieri's Divine Comedy; Dante's brother is called Vergil and Trish is sort of a diminutive form of Beatrice. Maybe it was some attempt on the developer's half to be seen as intellectual and justify the setting - who knows?

So of the above points, what needs to stay?


#3
I can't remember where I read it, but allegedly red is meant to be the 'good-guy' colour in Japan. So, the signature red coat stays. Buckles and belts need rid of altogether. Hair is debatable, but at least it isn't Space Marine.

#4
The guns. The sword needs toned down a little. Oh look, the DmC trailer has some sort of tentacle whip/lance thing. Huzzah!

#8
As said before, DMC's challenge and the enjoyment from it come from its difficulty. Yes, players might be getting their asses handed to them, but they're getting it handed in the right way. While it may be extreme, from experience it's rarely felt cheap - except when a bunch of those fucking lizards go super saiyan on you in Dante Must Die mode in a cramped space with a dodgy camera angle.

#9
In some cases the fighting system can be a little broken, and more than a couple of moves lie on the flashy rather than the pragmatic end of the scale - but overall Capcom has not failed on this front.

...And what really needs addressed?


#1
DMC games might have a ludicrous storyline, but it doesn't have to be bad. DMC3 managed to almost get it with the evil twin brother arc which, while hackneyed, stayed surprisingly strong from start to finish - not to mention the subplot concerning Lady and her antagonist father Arkham. Neither games 1, 2, nor 4 provided any incentive for the player to see the story unfold. As an aside I can barely remember what happened in 2, it really was that unengaging.

#5
When it comes to flesh-showing, less is more. Trish can still be voluptuous and 'sexy' without having to resort to something as lame as the strapless leather corset thing. In the games she's more or less Dante's personal assistant, so they could at least go for the clichéd bespectacled, hair-tied-back secretary look.
In regards to Lady, in her first appearance in DMC3 she is made out to be something of a tomboy. While only having a brief appearance in DMC4's cutscenes, she somehow became hypersexualized through the roof overnight and looks awful to boot.



Seriously, there is no need for this garish shit.


#10
The marionettes and their similar counterparts in 3 & 4 are kinda dull. I can understand the developers wanting to give the player a relatively safe punching bag at the start, but there's not much satisfaction derived from taking them out on the lower difficulties. The enemies seen in the DmC trailer do not bode well for the future of the franchise.

On first encounter, the Grim Reapers pretty much fuck the uninitiated player over as they now have to bear in mind the surroundings (which the enemies are not limited by), the fixed camera angles, and the fact that they can attack from any x, y or z angle. While the close range, last-minute sawn-off shotgun helps, it goes against the mood that the player should be able to take down any enemy with any of Dante's weapons. The fact that they're just scythe-wielding stereotypes just looks lazy too.

I don't have much beef with the Lizardmen. Sure they're kind of overcooked, but from a design perspective it gives the player a pretty clear idea what to expect with the size = threat level formula.
 
  

Because they're not humanoid in structure, the wolf things are far less interesting to fight. Non-*standard* looking enemies (i.e. anything with more than two legs) should probably be exclusive to boss fights.

#6
The chapter structure works fine and adds to the replayability, but the architecture needs mixing up. Don't give the player something grand to look at if they can't interact with it in some way.

#7
Fighting in cramped close-quarters and not having a decent field of view doth not a fun experience make.

#13
...Okay, this is where I'm stumped. If Ninja Theory really are trying to rejig Dante's backstory into something more accessible for a new audience, what's been seen so far hasn't been particularly inspiring (yes it's just a trailer, but DMC has always been a case of style over substance). Nor, indeed, is the whole 70s/80s punk rock theme...

...HOWEVER!


I am extremely intrigued from a narrative aspect by the part of the trailer where Dante is being Saw-style tortured in some sort of Gitmo Bay chamber. I seem to be in an absolute minority on this point, as everyone else has been preoccupied by the look of Dante - claiming that it's Robert Pattinson-Twilight inspired. I also want to note that I do hope that they retain Devil May Cry's trademark sense of humour. DMC3 was cheesy and super-daft with tongue firmly in cheek, but completely self-aware and all the better for it. In the other titles the light-hearted bits were intermittent (and Nero's emo grumping in DMC4 certainly did the series absolutely no favours), whereas DMC3 is more of an action comedy, if anything. Take this pre-boss fight cutscene, for example:
     
  

Now that you've all had time to cool down from the DmC outrage, feel free to add your own observations /criticism/suggestions, or just flame me if you want. And thanks for reading.
#2 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

Fake Dante looks like a prison bitch, when the real Dante looks like he'd be making the bitches in prison.   
 
Also, Dante is fucking Dante.  He's supposed to be all cheese and all style.  That's why DMC has that crazy ranking system with "DECENT" "COOL" "BRUTAL" "AWESOME"  "STYLYISSSSSSH", etc.   
 
Fake Dante is a bitch.  I'm going to type more soon, gotta take a train.

#3 Posted by Jazz (2276 posts) -

lmaojghfhgdhsjgdf 
 
Lets talk about Dante indeed. God, that made my day. 
We'll have to wait and see, but I like the old Dante a hell of a lot and Ninja Theory haven't exactly made a decent combat system...ever. 
I'm sure it'll look nice and there's a possibility of a half way good story, but the combat system..which is why everyone plays the game...is yet to be seen. But that sword thing in the trailers didn't exactly give a good impression. 
Perhaps it's all just a level of dream. Why would Capcom put old Dante in MVC3 if they're rebooting him completely, surely that would be a good platform to debut new Dante? at least a costume? 
 
I can't wait for Derek a couple of months after the NGP is released: 
'YOU HAVE TO CLIMB THE VINES USING THE DAMN TOUCHPAD!!!!!!!!!!!' 

#4 Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -
@Jazz said:
" Perhaps it's all just a level of dream. "
Oddly enough, I have this vision in my mind that the person featured in the trailer isn't Dante at all - it's some mental patient who thinks he's Dante and after going around vigilante-style killing hundreds of people mistaking them for monsters (a plot twist that I'm sure has already been done somewhere else) has finally been locked up and is recalling his memories to the 2001 Space Odyssey HAL camera interrogator thing.
#5 Posted by Jazz (2276 posts) -
@dudeglove:  
That wouldn't surprise me, considering Enslaved's ending.
#6 Posted by Sammo21 (3277 posts) -
@dudeglove: They made Dante go from badass metrosexual to angsty teen emo lesbian.  I do like Dante and enjoy his character, but the reboot perplexes me.   
 
1.)  Dante is an extremely popular character. 
2.)  The Devil May Cry games sell well, both here and abroad. 
3.)  Ninja Theory is an OK developer, but their combat is not their strong suit.  Either they have to really bone up on their fighting engine capabilities, people at Capcom are in the thick helping them with it, or this DMC won't be anything near the style of combat we had before (which really is a shame). 
 
 
My theory on how/why this is happening is this:  Ninja Theory was trying to sell a game idea to Capcom and they were sold on it, yet they were leary of a new IP with a developer who's status is sorta iffy (they do beautiful mocap work, but other than that they don't really have much else going for them).  They decided, for whatever reason, to let them try a new DMC game and someone at NT suggested the new artistic approach and then Capcom decided to just "reboot" the series.   
 
Visually, I don't like the character.  There isn't much more I can say on that.  IF you don't like it, you don't it...but that doesn't say anything about the gameplay and combat.  I will obviously wait to judge that until I get my hands on it, but the character design and voice I just don't like.  You can't tell someone their opinion is invalid because of that.  If all you put out is a visual representation and people don't like the look of that, why complain about them not liking it; its pointless. 
 
@dudeglove: The possibilities are high for this being something like that: This is all in Dante's mind, this is a person who thinks they are Dante, this is Dante in Limbo, etc, etc.  I'm not sure, but I hope its something like that.   
 
@Jazz:   I agree on the combat system remark.  NT hasn't made a worthwhile, intuitive combat system yet; its serviceable in Enslaved but its boring and repetitive in Heavenly Sword.   
#7 Posted by fwylo (3556 posts) -

Holy this is a post and heif.  I'm going to follow you for this.... Oh wait. 
 
I really have no opinions on the matter as I've never played more than a single level of a DMC game.  I think new Dante is pretty sexy.

#8 Edited by Slaker117 (4842 posts) -

As an outsider to the series I don't see the problem with NT rebooting the DMC franchise and making it their own. If you're someone who loves the originals, great, you can still enjoy those, this doesn't take away from what they were. If this game turns out to actually be bad, hate it then, for what it is, but hold off for now. You don't have to like the new Dante, but don't get upset because he's not the old one, he's not supposed to be.
 
Also, as a fan of early British Punk music, I'm kind of into the aesthetic.

#9 Posted by Catolf (2653 posts) -

i have a feeling this will turn into flame postings later XD
 
But I do agree with your thoughts on the subject, I'm going to sit back and see what happens, if it fails then it fails but I do really hope Ninja Theory can pull it off, though even if they do a lot of people still won't give where credit is due.. *eyes Kaos* but hell all we can do is hope for the best.
 
@fwylo said:

" Holy this is a post and heif.  I'm going to follow you for this.... Oh wait.  I really have no opinions on the matter as I've never played more than a single level of a DMC game.  I think new Dante is pretty sexy. "

While I have played some DMC I agree with everything said here.. sexeh new dante~
#10 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
@KaosAngel said:
" Fake Dante looks like a prison bitch, when the real Dante looks like he'd be making the bitches in prison.    Also, Dante is fucking Dante.  He's supposed to be all cheese and all style.  That's why DMC has that crazy ranking system with "DECENT" "COOL" "BRUTAL" "AWESOME"  "STYLYISSSSSSH", etc.    Fake Dante is a bitch.  I'm going to type more soon, gotta take a train. "
I just do not like how new danate looks a LOT like the Team Ninja Head Dev. 
#11 Posted by GetEveryone (4455 posts) -
@KaosAngel said:
" Fake Dante looks like a prison bitch, when the real Dante looks like he'd be making the bitches in prison."
Strange analogy aside, do you really think original Dante is particularly masculine? Have another look, man.
 
Not only is he decked out in leather, with knee-high boots but he has a particularly androgynous haircut.  
 
He's as close to 'Final Fantasy goes to Hell' as we're going to get.
#12 Posted by Delicious_Brains (170 posts) -
@dudeglove said:
" @Jazz said:
" Perhaps it's all just a level of dream. "
Oddly enough, I have this vision in my mind that the person featured in the trailer isn't Dante at all - it's some mental patient who thinks he's Dante and after going around vigilante-style killing hundreds of people mistaking them for monsters (a plot twist that I'm sure has already been done somewhere else) has finally been locked up and is recalling his memories to the 2001 Space Odyssey HAL camera interrogator thing. "
I'd be all for that if the real Dante showed up and slapped him around a bit.
#13 Posted by Jazz (2276 posts) -
@fwylo:  
but...he's talking about Dante. 
 
HE'S 
TALKING 
ABOUT 
DAN.. 
 
oh forget it. 
#14 Posted by fwylo (3556 posts) -
@Jazz: Dante is questionable at best.
#15 Posted by Red12b (9084 posts) -

holy shit 
I will read this later

#16 Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -
@Catolf:  I'm with you on the "sit back and wait until it comes out" standpoint completely, but what I think people haven't done is to bear in mind what made Devil May Cry great in the first place, because the franchise was dying a death in the first 10 minutes of DMC4. As such, I believe folk should frame their upcoming critique of DmC based on the good ole days, rather than point-blank dismissing it on face value i.e. the trailer.
 
By the way, if it's not clear from the post, I wholly consider DMC3 is the absolute pinnacle of the series in every aspect, and will gladly defend it as one of the best goddamn games of the last console generation - succeeded in genre only by Bayonetta. If anything, I'd be overjoyed if an HD remake comes to PSN.
 
And don't mind Kaos; he means well and is totally gay for Dante.
#17 Posted by Catolf (2653 posts) -
@dudeglove:  I have not gotten a chance to play dmc3 I have the first and I didn't get very far in it due to getting owned while the camera was off doing it's own thing. I did play a lot of dmc4 up till the one angel boss (curie's brother?) and I kinda quit. I liked Nero for the most part but the fact he was kinda a Dante clone was a bit of a turn off and the story.. yep.. don't remember anything but having to save her..for..some reason..
 
I did think the combat was fun in it for the most part. I'll defiantly have to get my hands on dmc3 and give it a good playthrough, that or wait and see if psn will let it become a down-loadable game which I would totally do.
 
I do love Bayonetta and even when i'm getting my ass kicked I can love it that it's flashy and still a fun game. (strangely I didn't get to frustrated with it and i'm notorious for wanting to toss a controler XP) I'm really hoping that Ninja Theory isn't over their heads with this and can make this game a good time with an awesome story to boot. With Heavenly Sword and Enslaved, both of which had lacking gameplay but supurb story, i hope that third times the charm and they can wow and bring over the old fans and new fans alike.
 
Oh yeah I'm totally getting Kaos' love for Dante XD I guess we all have a character or game we are willing to throw down the gloves for.
#18 Posted by HS21 (2682 posts) -

I am here to say that inFamous 1 cole looked like a redneck. Why did people like that?

#19 Posted by MooseyMcMan (11025 posts) -

All I know is that in DMC 1, Dante was a badass. Then, in 3, they turned him into a wise-ass teenager who didn't where a shirt. Then they made him badass again in 4, and now they've turned him into the ultimate jabroni. 

Moderator
#20 Posted by Red12b (9084 posts) -
@dudeglove:  
You make brilliant threads and no one fucking reads them, cunts. 
 
Anyway,  
 
I was talking with a friend who is way more interested in DMC and Jrpg in particular but anyway, Played through DMC3 and loved it went back to 1 and I played 4 it's alright, not that great.  
 
What we were talking about was The legacy of Kain series, fantastic story but the gameplay was fairly shit, meanwhile DMC is this flashy stylised game with great gamplay but the story is just an absolute mess,  
 
So if these guys want to create a DMC game where they improve the combat a bit but massively overhaul the story because lets face it, it's there just to support the action, then fuck, why not give them a chance.    
 
And Kaos, just wait and see what the character is like, They are overhauling the whole thing, so you know, wait and see. 
#21 Posted by Yummylee (21652 posts) -
Fantastic blog post, and I agree with virtually all points made here. I'm one of the few who digs this new Dante look, but even should I of found myself drowning in my own tears because he resembles a street wise graffti artist, the gameplay and environmental style is where the game needs to strike gold with. I really hope DmC will carry with it its own version of Virgil as well, as the relationship between those two was one of the best, if not only, interesting plot devices in the series. 
 
I also really want DmC to have a multitude of alternate costumes as well. That was one of the key features I felt were sorely missing from DMC4 =/
#22 Posted by BraveToaster (12589 posts) -

I still think Dante looks like Hilary Swank.

#23 Posted by Jazz (2276 posts) -
@fwylo said:
" @Jazz: Dante is questionable at best. "
..... 
I give up.
#24 Edited by Dallas_Raines (2161 posts) -
http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/112/1129209p1.html    

  

The Tokyo Game Show  reveal  of Capcom's new  Devil May Cry brought mixed reactions from fans, mainly due to the design change to the series' main character Dante. Developers also changed hands, with Heavenly Sword and Enslaved developer Ninja Theory  taking on the project. 

Speaking to IGN in an upcoming interview,  Capcom  VP of Strategic Planning and Business Development  Christian Svensson  says Dante needed a new look for this new game. 

"The original concepts that came back for Dante were actually extremely close to the Dante everyone knows and loves," Svensson explained. "The feedback that came back from [Keiji] Inafune and [Hideaki] Itsuno was, 'No guys, this needs to be completely different, we need you to go much further and be much more creative.'" 

"And literally dozens of potential iterations later became what we as a team felt comfortable and actually happy with." 

Svensson later admitted Capcom knew there would be fan backlash for the design change but said it was all part of the plan. 

"I will argue that any changes will bring about a knee-jerk reaction from fans," he said. "We know that; we knew that going into it. To be fair, I think some of the strategy here was to create that discussion and dialogue, and I think it drastically raises the visibility of the title versus if we had just done another Dante." 

Infamous 2 developer Sucker Punch revealed a new design for Cole, the game's protagonist, earlier this year. Due to the negative reaction it received, however, the studio  changed Cole back  to look more like the original design. 

Svensson said he doesn't expect the team to make any major changes to Dante in the new Devil May Cry. 

"This is meant to be an origin story, so this is Dante before you knew who Dante was," he explained. "There is going to be some interesting changes and twists to what people think they know about Dante or where he came from. We aren't planning on deviating greatly from the path that is there." 

"There may still be some tweaks here or there - I'm not privy to what's going on - but by and large that will be the direction the team is going down." 

 Doesn't sound like a total reboot to me, just another prequel.
#25 Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -

@Lord_Yeti said:  Doesn't sound like a total reboot to me, just another prequel. " 

 
Haven't you watched the IGN video at the start of the post? In the first 15 seconds, Senior Producer of Capcom(!) Alex Jones says, and I quote, 
 

"In general, what we wanna do is obviously do a reboot, which is a going back to the creation myth of Dante..."


 Not to mention Antoniades going on about "redefining" Dante. They're changing his origins and his character. If that isn't a reboot then I don't know what is.
#26 Posted by fwylo (3556 posts) -

.....

#27 Posted by Undeadpool (4943 posts) -
@GetEveryone said:
" @KaosAngel said:
" Fake Dante looks like a prison bitch, when the real Dante looks like he'd be making the bitches in prison."
Strange analogy aside, do you really think original Dante is particularly masculine? Have another look, man. Not only is he decked out in leather, with knee-high boots but he has a particularly androgynous haircut.   He's as close to 'Final Fantasy goes to Hell' as we're going to get. "
DINGDINGDING!!! Weee haaaave a wiiiiiiiinner! 
 
Apparently hair and the trenchcoat color are all that separates you from a "badass motherfucker" or an "emo (nobody knows what that word means anymore) wuss." 
#28 Posted by beej (1674 posts) -

I will comment where Kaos will not! Now know who really has your back.

#29 Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -
@sammo21 said:

"My theory on how/why this is happening is this:  Ninja Theory was trying to sell a game idea to Capcom and they were sold on it, yet they were leary of a new IP with a developer who's status is sorta iffy (they do beautiful mocap work, but other than that they don't really have much else going for them).  They decided, for whatever reason, to let them try a new DMC game and someone at NT suggested the new artistic approach and then Capcom decided to just "reboot" the series.   "

To me it was abundantly clear that DMC4 was a case of Capcom finally running out of ideas for what to do with the franchise. Take for instance both Nero & Dante as playable characters. Capcom had already done the two-characters-in-one thing before with Lucia in DMC2, and they repeated the exact same in DMC4 (i.e. backtracking through the same places as a cheap way of increasing playtime).
 
For total newcomers to the franchise, DMC4 is appealing. I mean, after all, right from the off you're treated to several hours of wrecking shit with a demon arm while firing off a ridiculous oversized two-barreled revolver, and swinging a magic sword with a 150-horsepower engine strapped to it - not to mention effectively beating the ever-living fuck out of the Pope at the end...but for someone who had gone through the previous titles, the game feels rehashed.

Judging by critical response to Ninja Theory's previous titles (none of which I've played, but I've seen plenty of Let's Play-type footage), Enslaved was surprisingly well received, albeit not outstanding, and for a PS3 launch title Heavenly Sword wasn't that bad considering the quality of launch titles in general. Yes, it could be that all NT will do is blatantly remake God of War 3 in Antoniades' image and end up a stinking pile of CODBLoPS. The point is that Capcom have likely finally realized they can't do another DMC in house, as it'll just be the same crap over again.
 
I should note that I'm not slamming DmC because I think it stinks, I posted this in the hope that the DMC franchise will get better. What they did (or didn't do) in DMC4 was a disservice both to the craft that went into it, and to the player.
 
@HS21 said:

" I am here to say that inFamous 1 cole looked like a redneck. Why did people like that? "


I think you'll find he was a Space Marine with a 5 o'clock shadow.
 
@GetEveryone said:
 

 "He's as close to 'Final Fantasy goes to Hell' as we're going to get."

 
 Hopefully that won't imply the player will end up just sitting on his/her ass watching lengthy arbitrary cutscenes and then proceeding to walk down the same narrow corridor for 20 hours. In hindsight the intro to DMC4 alone was waaaaaaay too long.
 

@KaosAngel said:

" Fake Dante is a bitch.  I'm going to type more soon, gotta take a train. "

I'm still waiting.
#30 Posted by Sammo21 (3277 posts) -
@dudeglove: I disagree about DMC4 as both Nero and Dante control amazingly well, and that's really all that matters in a DMC game.  Dante has never controlled better in any other game.
#31 Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -
@sammo21 said:
" @dudeglove: I disagree about DMC4 as both Nero and Dante control amazingly well, and that's really all that matters in a DMC game.  Dante has never controlled better in any other game. "
I should have mentioned that it wasn't the controls of either characters that bothered me - they're actually very fluid- it was DMC4's level design. Retracing your steps through an already uninspiring castle isn't most people's idea of entertainment.
#32 Posted by Sammo21 (3277 posts) -
@dudeglove: Agreed, but ultimately that has nothing to do with anything but lazy/unimaginative developers opposed to Dante needing a makeover :p  Totally agree on the level design as one you went through to super pope with Nero you've seen everything level wise.....and kinda enemy wise as well.
#33 Posted by dudeglove (7856 posts) -
@Red12b said:
" @dudeglove:  You make brilliant threads and no one fucking reads them, cunts.   "
If it ain't in Off Topic, it ain't worth shit.
#34 Posted by audiosnag (1604 posts) -

Great blog post dudeglove. 
I think what this game comes down to is gameplay if NT can pull that off they'll have a winner. That I can understand people being leery about as they haven't really had any serious fighting systems on par with DMC or a Ninja Gaiden type game before. It's gonna be a challenge but I'm interested in seeing if they pull it off.
As to the character design I think it's fine. Kaos's claim that old Dante was so manly is pretty ridiculous. Nobody with that haircut could claim to look manly. He looked like any other anime character out there. It was all the attitude that made Dante fun.

#35 Posted by Monte (229 posts) -

I think DMC4 has the best combat of the series. I love playing as both Nero and Dante.

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