DmC as a learning tool about Developer/Fan relationships

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#51 Posted by Klei (1799 posts) -

@CityHunter said:

@Klei said:

She gave out her opinion. She has the right to do so. That is, I agree with most of what she said. Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say except '' Its not 30 frames per second, it's not castles and gothic shit, not white haired enough and horrible writing. '' As a writer of seven published sci-fi and steampunk books in french, I can defend DmC right there. It has a good storyline. It's paper thin, it's simple, but it's well told and actually believable within the established world of DmC. It's a character action title, you can't do miracles with a 9 hours long action game based on a dude slicing demons while eating pizza and body surfing on fiends. But hey, once again, it's just my humble opinion. Please take it like a grain of salt.

Well, at least I can tell how this is going to go. First off, nobody who criticizes DmC ever brings up the hair, it's the least of the game's problems to us. It's almost like you're the ones obsessed with it. Your whole "wah it's her opinion" defense falls flat when you consider that she's a journalist, as in a PAID PROFESSIONAL. She doesn't get an opinion, and she certainly doesn't get to insult her readers. It may come as a surprise to some, but feelings and opinions have no place in a professional field. I find it kind of funny that you would make the claim that "Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say" when the second page of this very thread starts with a detailed analysis of the story's problems. In fact, it's one of three such analyses, check his post history for the other two. And before you try to hide behind the "most of" part, he compiled that piece from several sources, some of which have been steadily building for two years. You see, there's a heavy focus within the community on being thorough, though obviously the effort is lost on most of you. Also, great job on simplifying the DMC3 storyline, it makes it obvious that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

One more thing: I don't give a shit how many books you've supposedly written in France, it doesn't somehow not make you an ignorant asshole, nor does it suddenly make DmC anything other than a poorly written copy of They Live with some Futurama tacked on.

I thought about answering you and was about to, but hey, there's to point to deal with over-agressive people, especially when we're talking about a simple video game. I never insulted you and I think I remained pretty calm towards you. And if I'm an asshole because I gave my opinion, which I told you to take like a grain of salt, well, this is just too bad. Sadly, a couple of people like you roam around giantbomb's forums. Vulgar, aggressive, close-minded. You just can't take other people's opinions, so why do you even bother with threads? As for the books I wrote, google Victor Pelham. They've been released in Canada.

#52 Edited by LotusPrince (23 posts) -

@Nettacki said:

@Example1013 said:

There's no "reaction" or "interaction", there's a bunch of rage from angry forum trolls who can't get over the fact that the sanctity of their childhood was violated with a reboot. I haven't heard or read a single logical, rational argument as to why the game is bad. Also when I say trolls, I mean in the literal sense, as these users are literally Norwegian bridge trolls. The internet is their contact with the rest of the world, where they get to be nasty, vitriolic, self-entitled assholes.

For God's sake, not everyone that complains about the game are trolls. They are gamers with their own legit grievances like you and me.

I was gonna write like, at least 300 words explaining what you brought down to less then 30. Great work!

@StarvingGamer said:

Just gonna say that inFAMOUS 2 was a direct sequel so the different look was incredibly jarring. He was supposed to be the same person but was completely unrecognizable. DmC is a reboot/reimagining so mixing it up is a given. The two situations aren't comparable.

@StarvingGamer said:

Just gonna say that inFAMOUS 2 was a direct sequel so the different look was incredibly jarring. He was supposed to be the same person but was completely unrecognizable. DmC is a reboot/reimagining so mixing it up is a given. The two situations aren't comparable.

@Barrock said:

One difference between the Cole redesign and the Dante redesign is Cole was the character in Infamous 2, a direct sequel to Infamous. Dante, is the lead character in DMC, a remake of the Devil May Cry franchise.

It makes sense for them to redesign one character, but not the other.

Let's address this point using comics as an example. Comics go through reboots like Megaman goes though robot masters. Let's look at some recent ones.

Old DCU

Superman-http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/98086/1888897-superman_flying.jpg

Batman-http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a7/Batman_Lee.png/250px-Batman_Lee.png

Green Lantern-http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OcN_qzYEJPY/TUoJPDgNsjI/AAAAAAAAAD0/jL_lpYyWBE0/s1600/hal-jordan-green-lantern.jpg

Wonder Woman-http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/58/WonderWomanV5.jpg/250px-WonderWomanV5.jpg

New 52 DCU

Superman-http://www.professorbeej.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/New-52-Justice-League-Superman.png

Batman-http://comicbook.com/files/2011/06/batman-new-look.jpg

Green Lantern-http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lorxz1itQs1qa09o1o1_500.jpg

Wonder Woman-http://comicbook.com/files/2011/07/wonder-woman-pants-vs-no-pants.jpg

Now, notice that the in the new 52 looks, which is a reboot in every since of the word. They looks, while different, are still recognizable. Now I recgnice that it's a matter of subjective taste, which is fine, but I just don't think the DmC Dante is designed to be recognizable. WHICH MAY HAVE BEEN THE WHOLE POINT, but he's still called Dante, in a game called "Devil May Cry" acronyms aside. DmC is trying to call itself something it looks nothing like at worst and its a jarring imitation at bes, in my eyes. Thus I have not purchased the game.

Now, in keeping with the comic's comparison, lets look a Marvel NOW!, which is not a reboot is the normal understading of the word and is supposed to be direct sequels to the things that came before it.

Pre-NOW! Ironman-http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Iron_Man_bleeding_edge.jpg/250px-Iron_Man_bleeding_edge.jpg

NOW! Ironman-http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9mg5lHHqh1qc63ooo1_1280.jpg

Notice how in both DC's "hard" reboot and Marvel's "soft" reboot, the characters that are supposed to be the same people, *(and let me assert that if DmC Dante was not supposed to be the same person he would not have the same name or family, who also have the same names and character concepts( Demon dad, innocent mother, twin rival brother) remain recognizable. Different in ways you may or may not like. But I can tell who is who. DmC does not do this. Whether that is a good or bad thing is subjective, you are fee to enjoy or reject it. I choose to reject because it is not in line with what I like. That's not to say my tastes are absolute measures of quality. They are not, but I'm no more wrong or right for not liking it then someone is for enjoying it.

Man I hope all this makes sense.

*I apologize if the bold comes off as confrontational, its not, I just wanna get on top of that counter point before it poke out of the ground like the juiciest of groundhogs.

#53 Posted by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

@Klei said:

@CityHunter said:

@Klei said:

She gave out her opinion. She has the right to do so. That is, I agree with most of what she said. Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say except '' Its not 30 frames per second, it's not castles and gothic shit, not white haired enough and horrible writing. '' As a writer of seven published sci-fi and steampunk books in french, I can defend DmC right there. It has a good storyline. It's paper thin, it's simple, but it's well told and actually believable within the established world of DmC. It's a character action title, you can't do miracles with a 9 hours long action game based on a dude slicing demons while eating pizza and body surfing on fiends. But hey, once again, it's just my humble opinion. Please take it like a grain of salt.

Well, at least I can tell how this is going to go. First off, nobody who criticizes DmC ever brings up the hair, it's the least of the game's problems to us. It's almost like you're the ones obsessed with it. Your whole "wah it's her opinion" defense falls flat when you consider that she's a journalist, as in a PAID PROFESSIONAL. She doesn't get an opinion, and she certainly doesn't get to insult her readers. It may come as a surprise to some, but feelings and opinions have no place in a professional field. I find it kind of funny that you would make the claim that "Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say" when the second page of this very thread starts with a detailed analysis of the story's problems. In fact, it's one of three such analyses, check his post history for the other two. And before you try to hide behind the "most of" part, he compiled that piece from several sources, some of which have been steadily building for two years. You see, there's a heavy focus within the community on being thorough, though obviously the effort is lost on most of you. Also, great job on simplifying the DMC3 storyline, it makes it obvious that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

One more thing: I don't give a shit how many books you've supposedly written in France, it doesn't somehow not make you an ignorant asshole, nor does it suddenly make DmC anything other than a poorly written copy of They Live with some Futurama tacked on.

I thought about answering you and was about to, but hey, there's to point to deal with over-agressive people, especially when we're talking about a simple video game. I never insulted you and I think I remained pretty calm towards you. And if I'm an asshole because I gave my opinion, which I told you to take like a grain of salt, well, this is just too bad. Sadly, a couple of people like you roam around giantbomb's forums. Vulgar, aggressive, close-minded. You just can't take other people's opinions, so why do you even bother with threads? As for the books I wrote, google Victor Pelham. They've been released in Canada.

No offense, but the moment you defended the story without giving examples as to why it's good, while also trying to use your status as an author, you kinda opened yourself towards this kinda thing. What's good for you isn't what others think is good. Especially since you apparently skipped out on the story analysis in the previous page. Again, as I've asked before, it would be nice if you could express to us why you think the story is good, in detail. Spoiler tag it if you must.

#54 Edited by Klei (1799 posts) -

@Nettacki said:

@Klei said:

@CityHunter said:

@Klei said:

She gave out her opinion. She has the right to do so. That is, I agree with most of what she said. Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say except '' Its not 30 frames per second, it's not castles and gothic shit, not white haired enough and horrible writing. '' As a writer of seven published sci-fi and steampunk books in french, I can defend DmC right there. It has a good storyline. It's paper thin, it's simple, but it's well told and actually believable within the established world of DmC. It's a character action title, you can't do miracles with a 9 hours long action game based on a dude slicing demons while eating pizza and body surfing on fiends. But hey, once again, it's just my humble opinion. Please take it like a grain of salt.

Well, at least I can tell how this is going to go. First off, nobody who criticizes DmC ever brings up the hair, it's the least of the game's problems to us. It's almost like you're the ones obsessed with it. Your whole "wah it's her opinion" defense falls flat when you consider that she's a journalist, as in a PAID PROFESSIONAL. She doesn't get an opinion, and she certainly doesn't get to insult her readers. It may come as a surprise to some, but feelings and opinions have no place in a professional field. I find it kind of funny that you would make the claim that "Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say" when the second page of this very thread starts with a detailed analysis of the story's problems. In fact, it's one of three such analyses, check his post history for the other two. And before you try to hide behind the "most of" part, he compiled that piece from several sources, some of which have been steadily building for two years. You see, there's a heavy focus within the community on being thorough, though obviously the effort is lost on most of you. Also, great job on simplifying the DMC3 storyline, it makes it obvious that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

One more thing: I don't give a shit how many books you've supposedly written in France, it doesn't somehow not make you an ignorant asshole, nor does it suddenly make DmC anything other than a poorly written copy of They Live with some Futurama tacked on.

I thought about answering you and was about to, but hey, there's to point to deal with over-agressive people, especially when we're talking about a simple video game. I never insulted you and I think I remained pretty calm towards you. And if I'm an asshole because I gave my opinion, which I told you to take like a grain of salt, well, this is just too bad. Sadly, a couple of people like you roam around giantbomb's forums. Vulgar, aggressive, close-minded. You just can't take other people's opinions, so why do you even bother with threads? As for the books I wrote, google Victor Pelham. They've been released in Canada.

No offense, but the moment you defended the story without giving examples as to why it's good, while also trying to use your status as an author, you kinda opened yourself towards this kinda thing. What's good for you isn't what others think is good. Especially since you apparently skipped out on the story analysis in the previous page. Again, as I've asked before, it would be nice if you could express to us why you think the story is good, in detail. Spoiler tag it if you must.

I liked how they managed to take a very cheesy action game, which had very little of a storyline to begin with, and built up a convincing setting around it. The whole limbo thing, where demons roam in the background, waiting to pull Dante in is very well brought. I enjoyed how Dante is actually believable in this game. He seems to me like the real version of the actual character. The way he behaves, the way he talks. People said his lines were absolutely horrible and juvenile, but to tell the truth, I feel like everything is right on because that's exactly how I'd end up building a rebellious fuck-it-all demon slayer. He drinks, he gets laid and he kills.

The way Kat is brought, how she uses old-school black magic and compress it into a spray can is pretty clever too. I liked how she manages, during the storyline, to hit the right notes with Dante and make him feel like he has a purpose. Eventually, with the help of Vergil, Dante becomes entirely recognizable has the former hero of the franchise. I enjoyed how the bosses feel like evil entities part of their own worlds, not only '' bosses '' that exists for the sake of being bosses.

To make a good story, it's not only about the actual object of plot or the way it ends. It's often about the little things, like if the characters and world can resonate with its audience. I feel like Ninja Theory really managed to pull that off. Every character in the game seems like its own, with its own ideals, goals and thoughts. And that, is something I applaud. I took the succubus as an example earlier. The whole point of the succubus being there, in the virility factory, is to be a boss fight. That's it. Yet, instead of making it a random evil entity with nothing else to show than being an evil boss, she actually attacks you because Dante provokes her. He calls her a sack of shit, and she then reacts verbally before she tries to kill him. Also, the whole boss fight fits the storyline; her death is a low blow to Mundus. And remember, the brothers want to piss off Mundus to get him away from his Demon Gate.

So yeah, what I liked was the fact that they managed to create and build a credible game world, where things actually make some sense. The whole virility thing that brainwashes humans, Mundus and his control of the world via debt, the parts where Dante's father is shown but you never get to see his face. Things like that, to me, creates a convincing story background for a game. I thought the voice acting and mo-cap to be just as good as Ninja Theory's previous titles, which really brought the characters to life for me. There were a lot of effort put into making this game's fantasy believable, and for me, it totally works. Sure, if you're a grinch like Adam Sessler and you don't like cuss words, this game will melt your ears. But at least, to me, it fits the whole thing. I'd certainly say fuck off to demons if I were in Dante's shoes.

#55 Posted by MonkeyKing1969 (3553 posts) -

I'm going to swing into a side comment, but it struck me as something I wanted to talk about for a few seconds.

"Kind of like how I can't bring myself to read "Enders Game" because Orson Scott Card is a homophob."

I think that is the sadist part...the book is good...but Card is such a @#%&ing tool. Depending on how you look at it I was either lucky or unlucky in that I read most of the books worth reading by him BEFORE he started getting vocal in his bigotry. I even had time to read some books a few times and have some natural arguments against the books on their own merits.

To be honest only Enders Game is worth reading, and it is worth reading not because it makes a lot of sense, but because it presents some interesting ideas. I almost view Enders Game as a story in the same way I'd view 'Goldilocks and the Three Bears'. If you look at the story too closely you start to question why bears live in a house, eat porridge, sleep in beds, or try to eat people who beak into their home. You then wonder why a little girl wanders the woods, beaks into homes, and then stays at the scene of her own crime after having consumed stolen food and having broken furniture. Ender Game is set in a world that is illogical, it presents a scenario of leadership that is so reductive that a tween could do it, in a world where the most brilliant philosophical and political thinkers in the world are just two people...who are related...and who are seven and fourteen years old (not sure on the ages.) In other world Enders Game is a good story like a fairy tale is a good story, full of symbolism but having no real logic to the actions, characters, or plot. The only part I can actually say I like is the concept or that seemed realistic was that adults would watch children brutalize each other. Like "Lord of the Flies" with adult supervision and tacit consent to the brutality.

Anyway sorry to interrupt with a side issue...thanks.

#56 Posted by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

@Klei: Thank you for your analysis on the story. It'll be interesting to take yours and compare it to the analyses of those who didn't like it as much as you did, just to see how utterly different the interpretations could be.

#57 Posted by MURDERSMASH (267 posts) -

@CityHunter said:

@Klei said:

She gave out her opinion. She has the right to do so. That is, I agree with most of what she said. Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say except '' Its not 30 frames per second, it's not castles and gothic shit, not white haired enough and horrible writing. '' As a writer of seven published sci-fi and steampunk books in french, I can defend DmC right there. It has a good storyline. It's paper thin, it's simple, but it's well told and actually believable within the established world of DmC. It's a character action title, you can't do miracles with a 9 hours long action game based on a dude slicing demons while eating pizza and body surfing on fiends. But hey, once again, it's just my humble opinion. Please take it like a grain of salt.

Well, at least I can tell how this is going to go. First off, nobody who criticizes DmC ever brings up the hair, it's the least of the game's problems to us. It's almost like you're the ones obsessed with it. Your whole "wah it's her opinion" defense falls flat when you consider that she's a journalist, as in a PAID PROFESSIONAL. She doesn't get an opinion, and she certainly doesn't get to insult her readers. It may come as a surprise to some, but feelings and opinions have no place in a professional field. I find it kind of funny that you would make the claim that "Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say" when the second page of this very thread starts with a detailed analysis of the story's problems. In fact, it's one of three such analyses, check his post history for the other two. And before you try to hide behind the "most of" part, he compiled that piece from several sources, some of which have been steadily building for two years. You see, there's a heavy focus within the community on being thorough, though obviously the effort is lost on most of you. Also, great job on simplifying the DMC3 storyline, it makes it obvious that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

One more thing: I don't give a shit how many books you've supposedly written in France, it doesn't somehow not make you an ignorant asshole, nor does it suddenly make DmC anything other than a poorly written copy of They Live with some Futurama tacked on.

The article you linked is obviously an opinion piece, which she is paid to write. If you approached the link as some sort of dry, opinionless news story, you have only yourself to blame.

And besides, the people she's insulting aren't "her readers". She's shooting down those nutjobs who did things like accuse the reviewers of corruption, and those who sent fucking DEATH THREATS to Ninja Theory. Seriously? Death threats because of a video game? These vile, misanthropic scumbags DESERVE all the scorn and derision they receive.

#58 Posted by JCGamer (760 posts) -

People fear change. The problem with fanboy rage is that you just can't win. You implement new changes and they will complain that it's too different. They don't change enough and people complain that it more of the same. Seems like the only way people will be satisfied is if they remake the first game with modern day graphics-but what's the fun in that?

#59 Posted by MURDERSMASH (267 posts) -

@Nettacki said:

@CityHunter:that woman seemed like a real bitch. And apparently she complained about the Tomb Raider reboot too, so not only is she a bitch, she's a hypocrite.

Did you even read the Tomb Raider article she was referring to? She went in skeptical, and came out excited. Seriously, if you're going to attempt to shoot down her articles, at least read them, and try to avoid the ad hominems, k?

#60 Posted by Demoskinos (16157 posts) -

@Klei said:

@CityHunter said:

@Nettacki: I mostly count shitty little references about the hair. I'm trying to get a few more solid things together, because otherwise I'd have to list every article ever written about DmC. In the mean time here's the most recent example of how awful modern games journalism is.

http://www.vg247.com/2013/01/15/dmc-devil-may-cry-fans-are-a-crying-shame/

She gave out her opinion. She has the right to do so. That is, I agree with most of what she said. Most of the loudmouths who bitched about this reboot had very little to say except '' Its not 30 frames per second, it's not castles and gothic shit, not white haired enough and horrible writing. '' As a writer of seven published sci-fi and steampunk books in french, I can defend DmC right there. It has a good storyline. It's paper thin, it's simple, but it's well told and actually believable within the established world of DmC. It's a character action title, you can't do miracles with a 9 hours long action game based on a dude slicing demons while eating pizza and body surfing on fiends. But hey, once again, it's just my humble opinion. Please take it like a grain of salt.

Agreed. Its just getting embarrassing now. Seriously, the straws that people are grasping at is getting pathetic. I've seen some legitimate criticism but its mostly just people who haven't even played the game spewing vitriol .

#61 Edited by StarvingGamer (8960 posts) -

@LotusPrince said:

@StarvingGamer said:

Just gonna say that inFAMOUS 2 was a direct sequel so the different look was incredibly jarring. He was supposed to be the same person but was completely unrecognizable. DmC is a reboot/reimagining so mixing it up is a given. The two situations aren't comparable.

Now, notice that the in the new 52 looks, which is a reboot in every since of the word. They looks, while different, are still recognizable. Now I recgnice that it's a matter of subjective taste, which is fine, but I just don't think the DmC Dante is designed to be recognizable. WHICH MAY HAVE BEEN THE WHOLE POINT, but he's still called Dante, in a game called "Devil May Cry" acronyms aside. DmC is trying to call itself something it looks nothing like at worst and its a jarring imitation at bes, in my eyes. Thus I have not purchased the game.

Notice how in both DC's "hard" reboot and Marvel's "soft" reboot, the characters that are supposed to be the same people, *(and let me assert that if DmC Dante was not supposed to be the same person he would not have the same name or family, who also have the same names and character concepts( Demon dad, innocent mother, twin rival brother) remain recognizable. Different in ways you may or may not like. But I can tell who is who. DmC does not do this. Whether that is a good or bad thing is subjective, you are fee to enjoy or reject it. I choose to reject because it is not in line with what I like. That's not to say my tastes are absolute measures of quality. They are not, but I'm no more wrong or right for not liking it then someone is for enjoying it.

Man I hope all this makes sense.

*I apologize if the bold comes off as confrontational, its not, I just wanna get on top of that counter point before it poke out of the ground like the juiciest of groundhogs.

I'd like bring up a very important word that you missed here, which is "reimagining". The DC stuff has a lot in common with the Ultimate universe for Marvel. These are the same heroes, with the same stories, being retold with modern sensibilities in mind. Superman is still from Krypton. He still grew up as a farm boy. He still lives in Metropolis under the guise of journalist Clark Kent. It's the same story being told as if he showed up on Earth in the 2000's instead of the 1930's.

DmC is not that. The legacy from DMC > DmC is almost entirely mechanics based. Only the barest skeleton of story elements is carried over. Yes his dad is the demon lord Sparda, yes he has a twin brother, yes his mother is named Eva but guess what, she's not human. This is not plucking Dante out of DMC and imagining what he would be like in the 2010's with Western sensibilities, this is an entirely new Dante in every way but name. The jump from DMC > DmC is less DC > New 52 and much more Journey to the West > Enslaved.

And are you seriously going to argue that there is no through-line of design from DMC > DmC? Seriously?

Also...

...even if it is the same continuity, DmC would be considered a prequel to even DMC3 as DmC Dante is completely unaware of his heritage, his brother, or the nature of his powers. As the game progresses, bits of white begin to creep into his hair until the end of the game when his hair is almost completely white. For fans of the series, it's very symbolic of his growth into the eventual supreme badass that Dante was in DMC.
#62 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

@MURDERSMASH: Yeah, you're right. I should've read the article a bit more. My apologies.

Still, that attack on the old DMC fans didn't really address their real concerns past the hair. Hell, I think she still could have made it a bit more clear that she's only attacking a certain subset of the fanbase instead of seemingly the entire fanbase at once.

#63 Posted by Demoskinos (16157 posts) -

So my new favorite thing is this tweet. Some douchebag decided to tweet Kamiya with a picture showing that the DMC HD Collection is selling better on amazon than DmC. His response was so...

May I block you? twitter.com/PG_kamiya/stat… RT @hazerion: people like old DMC than new one :D twitter.com/Hazerion/statu…

— 神谷英樹 Hideki Kamiya (@PG_kamiya) January 20, 2013

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/292908558889132032

Its funny to see all these people suck up to Kamiya after he already stated his good wishes for the people at Ninja Theory.

#64 Posted by StarvingGamer (8960 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

So my new favorite thing is this tweet. Some douchebag decided to tweet Kamiya with a picture showing that the DMC HD Collection is selling better on amazon than DmC. His response was so...

May I block you? twitter.com/PG_kamiya/stat… RT @hazerion: people like old DMC than new one :D twitter.com/Hazerion/statu…

— 神谷英樹 Hideki Kamiya (@PG_kamiya) January 20, 2013

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/292908558889132032

Its funny to see all these people suck up to Kamiya after he already stated his good wishes for the people at Ninja Theory.

:D:D:D TAKE IT

#65 Posted by Hailinel (25787 posts) -

@Demoskinos: @StarvingGamer: Guys, I understand that the psycho haters deserve what they're getting, but maybe if you stop giving them the time of day you might find more dissenters that are more agreeable to at the very least having a debate.

#66 Edited by StarvingGamer (8960 posts) -

@Hailinel: I can talk it out when there's talking to be had (see top of page) and also revel in the plaintive wails of the irrationally angry. This is definitely a cake-and-eat-it-too situation.

EDIT: And I'm only reveling in it this time because having Kamiya shoot these people down is too delicious.

#67 Edited by LotusPrince (23 posts) -

@MonkeyKing1969: Valid points. I believe a good friend of mind has the book, so I could give it a read and not have to worry about paying more for and then ostensibly giving money to its torrid author.

@StarvingGamer

I understand what you're saying, I think, and I'm not trying to invalidate your argument but to me the words reimagining, reboot, restart, retooling, revisioning, all have the same basic meaning . That's why I'm putting DmC and Comics that mess around with continuity in the same boat. They seem like the same thing in my admittedly lax and rudimentary understanding of words.

( Side note:I'm trying to write a novel and by god has a thesaurus been like the greatest thing ever.)

I will gladly admit that my understanding of the word and Ninja Theory's( or anyone elses really) intent could be different and thus expectations are not matched. That's faire.

#68 Edited by FirePrince (1772 posts) -

"dmc devil may cry is a shameless reboot to a great franchise,this game has obscene violence and even a sex scene in it. ninja theory claim its a shakespear-esk game but in reality its a pitiful game"

1/10-charlie1234 of metacritic.

The outrage that the game created is so great. Partly because the game is actually pretty good.

Also, this made me realize that a majority of the DMC "fanbase" are complete and utter idiots, like our good friend charlie1234.

#69 Posted by Demoskinos (16157 posts) -

@StarvingGamer: Indeed I'm eating the cake until I get a stomach ache. XD

#70 Posted by Sanious (799 posts) -

@FirePrince: How much do you want to bet "Charlie1234" has several accounts giving it negative reviews? ;)

#71 Posted by Hailinel (25787 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@StarvingGamer: Indeed I'm eating the cake until I get a stomach ache. XD

Doesn't that just make you the asshole after a point?

#72 Posted by Demoskinos (16157 posts) -
@Sanious

@FirePrince: How much do you want to bet "Charlie1234" has several accounts giving it negative reviews? ;)

Lets bomb metacritic with 0 review scores bro! That will show them!
#73 Posted by Demoskinos (16157 posts) -
@Hailinel If at some point the assholes shut up and this issue was still being drug up then sure. However as long as they are coming at me with their insane conspiracy theories and vitriol filled factually incorrect rants then no they deserve every bit or mocking they recieve.
#74 Edited by MurderBunny (64 posts) -

I like how this is a circle jerk about how stupid we old school DmC.

Yes we only care about white hair, we are all self-entitled spoiled children, we are dumb and so on and so on. After all you are all adding to the conversation with your edgy remarks and circle jerk about how we fans are all so Ignorant... Let' me give you a slow clap for how interesting and awesome you all are. GO YOU! You manged to be angry at another angry group on the internet. A slow clap for you all truly you are the white knights of the internet and when you shit it smells like roses.

Now here is an idea. How about you all react to the original topic. Interactions between fans and Developers which could be interesting to talk about. There was a very interesting dynamic. Where the negative fans (me) was feed stupid comments that only helped to make things worse as the game was developing. Instead trying to disarm the angry out call Ninja Theorie and Capcoms PR team actively poked the fans in the chest several times. When the game was coming out the first things we heard from the head of Ninja Theorie was about street art and how un-cool Devil May Cry and Dante was. It was not about the combat, the spirit of Devil May Cry or any thing like that. It was freaking street art and COOL!!!111 that was the topic.

This was not helped with the fact that the original art that came out was SHIT!. Now he smoked because that is cool, he looked methy, scowling and over all he looked like a complete douche. All while they where blaring on about how cool the new design was. It did not help that Bayonetta in Tam's words where "Unrealistic, to over the top and to Japanese" and so on. That was what a lot of us loved about Devil may cry. It felt like they had no idea what made the series fun to begin with.

Then they went silent. They came back with a few videos that was a lot of flash, but no real substance and then PR team had the bright idea to get "Gaming Journalists" to write about how all we evil neck beards are against change so you should boo us. This only helped to make people like me even more against this title even if i was starting to soften in my tone. It was more or less a textbook case in how not to react to angry fans. It will be interesting to see if there gamble to go for the new fan will work.

Now i will end it here and sorry about the broken English and grammar that would make a nazi puke.

This is not about the FOR or AGAINST the game, but the things leading up to the release and the consequences of it. Or you can go back to being all edgy and angry and that other angry group over there and fell all superior about how you are better because your opinion is different. It is all op to you.

#75 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

Well, Forbes released an article on this whole debacle, and it's a reaction to how the press reacted to the fans that reacted to the game. It's an interesting read.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/01/22/upset-dmc-fans-are-entitled-because-thats-what-we-call-people-who-complain-about-video-games/

If you think it'd be easier if I just copy and paste the entire article here instead of just linking it, please let me know.

#76 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

Also, reading through that VG 24/7 article again, I realize once again that I just read a supposedly professional game journalist call out dissenters in the most immature way imaginable, regardless of what they say, and thus I go back to my previous assessment that she's a hypocrite and an unprofessional bitch. I mean, if video games aren't all that important in a person's life, why is she a game journalist, a job that pretty much revolves all around games?

#77 Posted by Village_Guy (2749 posts) -

Latest news in this whole DmC debacle:

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO:

Get Ninja Theory’s DmC: Devil May Cry pulled off the shelves.

Dear Mr. Obama: As a consumer to the Video Game Industry there is one Video Game that has caused a lot of controversy over the past few month’s.

The name of the game is DmC: Devil May Cry made by Ninja Theory and Capcom. A majority of gamer’s are aggravated that this game has changed so much from it’s past predecessors and the game actually insults the consumers in-game.

We, as consumers did not want nor need this reboot and we believe it violates our rights to have a choice between the original’s or the reboot. This game is violating our rights as a consumer and we believe it should be pulled off shelves from game stores due to it’s insulting nature and the fact that it violates our rights.

Please Mr. Obama, look into your heart and make the decision that will please us Gamers.

GameInformer link: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/01/22/fans-petition-white-house-to-have-devil-may-cry-removed-from-shelves.aspx

#78 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

@Village_Guy:newsflash, dude. That was already talked about in another thread. I don't think this needs to be talked about again.

Alas, like we've said before, that's just a small group of fans that may or may not be trolling everyone, and even if they're not, they're still a very small extremist section of the fanbase that the press focuses on more for clicks and flamebait than the far more reasonable assessments from more level-headed fans.

#79 Posted by Village_Guy (2749 posts) -

@Nettacki: Dammit, I'm always late to the party when something stupid happens!

#80 Posted by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

@Village_Guy:yeah, well for now it'd be nice if you checked out the Forbes article I linked. It should be an interesting read, a somewhat refreshing one compared to most articles from journalists that call fans entitled.

#81 Posted by LotusPrince (23 posts) -

Kinda wanna apply to forbs now. Good article, very civil.

#82 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

I think it's necessary to bring this topic up again upon the knowledge that DmC didn't quite sell as expected and resulted in Capcom lowering their sales forcasts by almost half (2 million to 1.2 million). One article by mcvuk sees it fit to blame the "haters" for the game not selling well rather than Capcom/NT themselves for not doing as good of a job as they could have marketing it.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/capcom-almost-halves-dmc-sales-expectations/0110372

It’s potentially a sad end to a tale brought about very much by the fans themselves. Anyone who played Devil May Cry 4 must surely of seen how desperately the IP needed an injection of new ideas and modernisation – which is exactly what the skilful Ninja Theory achieved.

Yet the fans revolted because Capcom dared to reinvent its IP for the 21 century and dared to change the colour of Dante’s hair. It’s really very sad.

A headline suggested by a colleague: “Devil May Cry fans destroy brand out of spite.” That about covers it.

If anything, articles like this further express how out of touch the so-called video game journalists are when it comes to what the average gamers think of the games they recommend/not recommend. I mean, he's gone back to the age-old "Oh it's the hair, right?" argument that never really held any merit for a while, when we all know that it goes far deeper than looks. He seems unaware of how the devs treated their fans during the game's development (namely, that they don't care) and how that treatment extends to how the critics tend to treat the fans as well. And I have a feeling that this guy won't be alone in his analysis, and we'll see even more aimless bickering between the two sides of the love/hate spectrum of DmC.

#83 Posted by Humanity (11316 posts) -

@Nettacki: He's right in the sense that because it didn't sell well, if they don't decide to let Ninja Theory do a DmC2 then they'll just abandon the series all together. Then the fans can play DMC3 for the rest of time because no new game is going to come out. Fans have "voted with their wallet" to basically kill off their beloved franchise.

#84 Posted by Hailinel (25787 posts) -
@Humanity

@Nettacki: He's right in the sense that because it didn't sell well, if they don't decide to let Ninja Theory do a DmC2 then they'll just abandon the series all together. Then the fans can play DMC3 for the rest of time because no new game is going to come out. Fans have "voted with their wallet" to basically kill off their beloved franchise.

Then it's Capcom's fault for not giving fans what they want. Don't blame just the fans if DMC's sales kill the franchise.
#85 Posted by familyphotoshoot (703 posts) -

Why is it that in other industries the customer is considered king and customer service/satisfaction is a top priority, but the higher-ups in the video game business think that it's okay to laugh at their customers and downright insult them whenever they dare to speak negatively about their upcoming product? These are supposed to be professionals, and as such they should be able to handle criticism; instead they behave like children, flipping off their customers with one hand while at the same time leaving the other hand out so that we can give them our money. How do they get away with this shit? Why all the hostility?

And perhaps most importantly, why doesn't the "gaming press" call them out on this bullshit? The only articles you ever see on the subject are written in defense of the corporations. They act as though these giant, multinational corporations need defense from everyday people who are using naughty language to talk about them on an online forum. It's pathetic and gross.

#86 Edited by LotusPrince (23 posts) -

@Nettacki said:

I think it's necessary to bring this topic up again upon the knowledge that DmC didn't quite sell as expected and resulted in Capcom lowering their sales forcasts by almost half (2 million to 1.2 million). One article by mcvuk sees it fit to blame the "haters" for the game not selling well rather than Capcom/NT themselves for not doing as good of a job as they could have marketing it.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/capcom-almost-halves-dmc-sales-expectations/0110372

It’s potentially a sad end to a tale brought about very much by the fans themselves. Anyone who played Devil May Cry 4 must surely of seen how desperately the IP needed an injection of new ideas and modernisation – which is exactly what the skilful Ninja Theory achieved.

Yet the fans revolted because Capcom dared to reinvent its IP for the 21 century and dared to change the colour of Dante’s hair. It’s really very sad.

A headline suggested by a colleague: “Devil May Cry fans destroy brand out of spite.” That about covers it.

If anything, articles like this further express how out of touch the so-called video game journalists are when it comes to what the average gamers think of the games they recommend/not recommend. I mean, he's gone back to the age-old "Oh it's the hair, right?" argument that never really held any merit for a while, when we all know that it goes far deeper than looks. He seems unaware of how the devs treated their fans during the game's development (namely, that they don't care) and how that treatment extends to how the critics tend to treat the fans as well. And I have a feeling that this guy won't be alone in his analysis, and we'll see even more aimless bickering between the two sides of the love/hate spectrum of DmC.

Forbs has an intresting aricle about this very thing.

http://cdnl.complex.com/m.php/CHANNEL_IMAGES/MUSIC/2012/12/trinidad_snzxx.jpg

Erik Kain, providing perspective and such.

@Hailinel said:

@Humanity

@Nettacki: He's right in the sense that because it didn't sell well, if they don't decide to let Ninja Theory do a DmC2 then they'll just abandon the series all together. Then the fans can play DMC3 for the rest of time because no new game is going to come out. Fans have "voted with their wallet" to basically kill off their beloved franchise.

Then it's Capcom's fault for not giving fans what they want. Don't blame just the fans if DMC's sales kill the franchise.

From the Forbs article,

"It’s almost—almost!—as if some people think game publishers are entitled to sales regardless of whether or not customers particularly care for the product."

Interesting to see a reaction to the whole, "You dont like "X" then don't buy it, vote with wallet." thing, and the result of that voting being low sales. Honestly I'm impressed that some people put their money where there mouths were.

#87 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

I bring this topic up again in light of Ninja Theory's recent GDC presentation on old Dante if he were in western movies, as well as some silly pics about "Dante is not/Dante is."

Linkie

Images from the event.

Basically, it looks like NT is trying to show that old Dante = gay = bad = not western = doesn't fit in with what they think is cool. As if to say their vision of Dante would fit in more (it wouldn't). Not to mention the fact that they saw fit to photoshop a CGI image of Dante into live-action films in the first place, which is just silly no matter who's being shopped in.

Once again, it shows (at least to me) that they are woefully out of touch with the fanbase and they are taking the backlash in an immature and stupid way by doing this.

Yes, I know it's a prank, but it's not a particularly good one, and all it does is continue the bad blood between the fans they pissed off and themselves.

#88 Posted by Hailinel (25787 posts) -

You'd think that Ninja Theory more than anyone would want this argument to die by now.

#89 Edited by mrfluke (5653 posts) -

note. dont be a dick to the old fans, creates bad press and forms a prejudgemental bad opinion about your reboot that you dont need cause its a reboot.

#90 Edited by DarthOrange (4091 posts) -

Wow Ninja Theory be some straight up assholes at GDC.

#91 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

I'm honestly wondering how NT fanboys will defend their behavior.

#92 Edited by JCGamer (760 posts) -

Well, I feel sorry for people blinded by irrational rage that they refuse to play a really good game in the new DMC. I've played and beat 1, never played 2 or 3 and got bored with 4. I do think that the reboot is true to the original in overal tone and flavor. People in the internet what a sequel to a beloved game to be the exact same and at the same time completely different. They really don't know what they want. I feel that in those cases, people should just remake the entire game exactly the same as it was except with up-do-date graphics and people would be happier. It would be boring, but this select group of people can be happy playing the same game over and over again.

#93 Edited by kpaadet (420 posts) -

@nettacki said:

I'm honestly wondering how NT fanboys will defend their behavior.

Dont worry, they will find a way.

#94 Posted by Hailinel (25787 posts) -

@jcgamer said:

Well, I feel sorry for people blinded by irrational rage that they refuse to play a really good game in the new DMC. I've played and beat 1, never played 2 or 3 and got bored with 4. I do think that the reboot is true to the original in overal tone and flavor. People in the internet what a sequel to a beloved game to be the exact same and at the same time completely different. They really don't know what they want. I feel that in those cases, people should just remake the entire game exactly the same as it was except with up-do-date graphics and people would be happier. It would be boring, but this select group of people can be happy playing the same game over and over again.

Not everyone that refuses to play the game is doing so out of irrational rage.

#95 Posted by Humanity (11316 posts) -

@kpaadet said:

@nettacki said:

I'm honestly wondering how NT fanboys will defend their behavior.

Dont worry, they will find a way.

Does anyone have a link to the actual presentation? I'd be curious to hear what they said in reference to those slides.

#96 Edited by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

@jcgamer: The core reason why people hate the new game is because the tone and flavor is different from the old ones. NT refused to acknowledge this beyond a collective "I don't care" and "You secretly like it."

@humanity: Not yet. It seems this presentation is one of those "behind closed doors" presentations that doesn't really pop up until days after the event on GDC Vault. And even if/when it does appear on the Vault, it might require a paid membership to access (or might not, no idea). All we can get is bits and pieces from the event that leaked from the press.

Still, from what we're seeing now, I highly doubt they said anything good about old Dante and it's more likely that they're using those comparisons to justify the existence of their new Dante.

#97 Posted by Nettacki (1332 posts) -

@jcgamer: If you've never played 3, you're missing out. It's highly regarded as the best game in the series for a reason.

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