Feminist Frequency Hates The Game.

#351 Posted by stryker1121 (1525 posts) -

@algertman: The problem I have with this topic is its flame-baiting title and very little substance in the initial post. If you want to talk about Anita S being a scam artist, do some research and create a new topic thread with some facts to back up your claim. This thing has now escalated to 18 pages (I'm not helping by propelling it along myself) and for what?

#352 Posted by Humanity (9589 posts) -

@John1912 said:

@Humanity said:

@AndrewB said:

I pay next-to-no attention to Devil May Cry. Could someone enlighten me on what part of the game is offensive? All I've ever seen is an attractive-in-an-emo-sense male lead. Oh, and a female who happens to have breasts.

There literally is none. Dante does not act sexist in any way throughout the game, even when facing female adversaries he doesn't make any misogynistic or sexist comments. Kat as a character wears shorts and thats about as sexual as it gets. She has breasts. At no point does she bend over to show a ton of cleavage or display her ass. Her relationship with Dante could be characterized as brother and sister more so than romantic partners. People are grasping at straws here.

Not that Im offended, but I guess you forgot about the Devil chick being bent over in her hooker outfit. Opening sex with Dante and some chicks, still painting of Dante and 3-4 women naked in bed with him. Mostly naked harpies, witches, and club dancers with angel wings. Im not to far into the game thou. Lol Kat in shorts was all you got?

For Harpies specifically thats how they look, and have always looked in ancient Greek myths. Dante having intercourse with two girls he met at a club is not especially sexist. It is sexual, but he doesn't throw them around, or overpower them or degrade them in any way. Wings on dancers? How is that sexist? How are wings on club dancers indicative of women being shunned or degraded in any way? The scene with the two demons having sex, while gross and overtly sexual, is also not particularly sexist. You may be mistaking sexual imagery with sexism which are two different things.

#353 Posted by Brodehouse (10072 posts) -
@John1912

@Humanity said:

@AndrewB said:

I pay next-to-no attention to Devil May Cry. Could someone enlighten me on what part of the game is offensive? All I've ever seen is an attractive-in-an-emo-sense male lead. Oh, and a female who happens to have breasts.

There literally is none. Dante does not act sexist in any way throughout the game, even when facing female adversaries he doesn't make any misogynistic or sexist comments. Kat as a character wears shorts and thats about as sexual as it gets. She has breasts. At no point does she bend over to show a ton of cleavage or display her ass. Her relationship with Dante could be characterized as brother and sister more so than romantic partners. People are grasping at straws here.

Not that Im offended, but I guess you forgot about the Devil chick being bent over in her hooker outfit. Mostly naked harpies, witches, and club dancers with angel wings. Im not to far into the game thou. Lol Kat in shorts was all you got?

Unfortunately in both cases, the representation of the female body is neither discriminatory nor generalizing the entire gender, thus it doesn't qualify as sexism. The representation of something that sexually appeals to men is no more or less sexist than the representation of things that sexually appeal to women. Neither manages to discriminate or generalize by merely the presentation of human flesh.

Consider when you see men get all bent out of shape because women are into Robert Pattinson, or Justin Bieber, or Ryan Gosling, or are interested in 50 Shades of Grey. Consider the dismissive attitude towards those things, because they don't appeal to (hetero) men. Then counterpart the reaction from their distaff counterparts towards things that don't appeal to them. Notice any similarities? All it is is social megalomania, the desire to forcibly sculpt the world so that anything that doesn't appeal to you doesn't exist. They're no different from the religious stamping their feet outside of a movie theater because the movies are filled with things that offend them, therefore you shouldn't be able to watch them.
#355 Edited by John1912 (1906 posts) -

@Humanity said:

@John1912 said:

@Humanity said:

@AndrewB said:

I pay next-to-no attention to Devil May Cry. Could someone enlighten me on what part of the game is offensive? All I've ever seen is an attractive-in-an-emo-sense male lead. Oh, and a female who happens to have breasts.

There literally is none. Dante does not act sexist in any way throughout the game, even when facing female adversaries he doesn't make any misogynistic or sexist comments. Kat as a character wears shorts and thats about as sexual as it gets. She has breasts. At no point does she bend over to show a ton of cleavage or display her ass. Her relationship with Dante could be characterized as brother and sister more so than romantic partners. People are grasping at straws here.

Not that Im offended, but I guess you forgot about the Devil chick being bent over in her hooker outfit. Opening sex with Dante and some chicks, still painting of Dante and 3-4 women naked in bed with him. Mostly naked harpies, witches, and club dancers with angel wings. Im not to far into the game thou. Lol Kat in shorts was all you got?

For Harpies specifically thats how they look, and have always looked in ancient Greek myths. Dante having intercourse with two girls he met at a club is not especially sexist. It is sexual, but he doesn't throw them around, or overpower them or degrade them in any way. Wings on dancers? How is that sexist? How are wings on club dancers indicative of women being shunned or degraded in any way? The scene with the two demons having sex, while gross and overtly sexual, is also not particularly sexist. You may be mistaking sexual imagery with sexism which are two different things.

Lol, you miss the point. Your using one part of the defination of Sexist. Your not using Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

I pointed out the wings so you would know who I was talking about. Wings have nothing to do with anything. Point is there are a lot of women that have almost no clothing. stereotyping, and objectivity women. Hence ^ the definition.

#356 Posted by Brodehouse (10072 posts) -
@John1912 here's the problem; 'attitudes, conditions, and behaviours that promote stereotyping' are _extremely difficult to pinpoint_ and require a lot of evidence, and must stand up to scrutiny. "These girls don't have clothes on so the game is saying women shouldn't wear clothes" is about as convincing a piece of evidence as "the only black character is a demon who is imprisoned, the game is saying black people should be in prison (and are demons)". Of course it doesn't, because that's an unreasonable extrapolation.

Referencing the club girls... Well, I don't know if you've been to clubs, but the girls who work there (and many who frequent) generally dress provocatively. Representing women in dress appropriate for both the character and the situation is not 'creating behaviours and conditions that stereotype' it's creating a context that conforms to what we know to be true. That women who dance on poles and work at clubs generally wear lingerie. Showing women at clubs dancing on poles and wearing lingerie does not stereotype the entirety of women as pole dancers any more than the police officers who storm the safehouse stereotype men as ruthless killers.
#357 Posted by John1912 (1906 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912 here's the problem; 'attitudes, conditions, and behaviours that promote stereotyping' are _extremely difficult to pinpoint_ and require a lot of evidence, and must stand up to scrutiny. "These girls don't have clothes on so the game is saying women shouldn't wear clothes" is about as convincing a piece of evidence as "the only black character is a demon who is imprisoned, the game is saying black people should be in prison (and are demons)". Of course it doesn't, because that's an unreasonable extrapolation. Referencing the club girls... Well, I don't know if you've been to clubs, but the girls who work there (and many who frequent) generally dress provocatively. Representing women in dress appropriate for both the character and the situation is not 'creating behaviours and conditions that stereotype' it's creating a context that conforms to what we know to be true. That women who dance on poles and work at clubs generally wear lingerie. Showing women at clubs dancing on poles and wearing lingerie does not stereotype the entirety of women as pole dancers any more than the police officers who storm the safehouse stereotype men as ruthless killers.

Stand up to scrutiny? What? Pretty much every women in the game besides Kat is a half naked, vapid playing. You only have to look at them. They arent there for anything. They dont move the plot along, they dont have any meaningful dialog. They embody sexual objects. They specifically exist to promote sex. They are evidence unto themselves. How can you miss that?

#358 Posted by Humanity (9589 posts) -

@John1912 said:

@Humanity said:

@John1912 said:

@Humanity said:

@AndrewB said:

I pay next-to-no attention to Devil May Cry. Could someone enlighten me on what part of the game is offensive? All I've ever seen is an attractive-in-an-emo-sense male lead. Oh, and a female who happens to have breasts.

There literally is none. Dante does not act sexist in any way throughout the game, even when facing female adversaries he doesn't make any misogynistic or sexist comments. Kat as a character wears shorts and thats about as sexual as it gets. She has breasts. At no point does she bend over to show a ton of cleavage or display her ass. Her relationship with Dante could be characterized as brother and sister more so than romantic partners. People are grasping at straws here.

Not that Im offended, but I guess you forgot about the Devil chick being bent over in her hooker outfit. Opening sex with Dante and some chicks, still painting of Dante and 3-4 women naked in bed with him. Mostly naked harpies, witches, and club dancers with angel wings. Im not to far into the game thou. Lol Kat in shorts was all you got?

For Harpies specifically thats how they look, and have always looked in ancient Greek myths. Dante having intercourse with two girls he met at a club is not especially sexist. It is sexual, but he doesn't throw them around, or overpower them or degrade them in any way. Wings on dancers? How is that sexist? How are wings on club dancers indicative of women being shunned or degraded in any way? The scene with the two demons having sex, while gross and overtly sexual, is also not particularly sexist. You may be mistaking sexual imagery with sexism which are two different things.

Lol, you miss the point. Your using one part of the defination of Sexist. Your not using Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

I pointed out the wings so you would know who I was talking about. Wings have nothing to do with anything. Point is there are a lot of women that have almost no clothing. stereotyping, and objectivity women. Hence ^ the definition.

By a lot of women you mean, club dancers and fictional monsters? Where are all these undressed women in the game? The Main Menu image is probably the most sexist part of the game. No worries, I did not miss a beat. Dante has sex with two willing females. Two women want to have sex with an attractive male. This unconditionally objectifies them as whores? The main female lead in the game is an intelligent young girl that overcame a troubling past and is now taken control of her life and doing something constructive with it. She isn't scantly clothed and doesn't adhere to typical female NEGATIVE stereotypes - I underline negative because stereotypes themselves do not automatically fall into sexism.

#359 Posted by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@JasonR86: I'd hate to be so trite as to post an Edmund Burke quote, but the reason people feel a need to get involved (and more importantly, stay involved) is the use of emotional rhetoric, personal attacks and imputations of malice. As a person who disagrees with Ms. Sarkeesian, I'm sure you've already had the joy of being called a misogynist because you find the things she says unfounded in reality, the imputation of malice that you seek to do harm to her by the grave act of logically disagreeing. The reason people feel the need to stick around and see these arguments to their logical end is not 'their precious hobby', it's to clear the air from circular, dogmatic nonsense.

I think you are also a little off the mark when it comes to her 'harassment' on Youtube. It is not a 'small minority' who rush to her side, and it's not a majority that is making actual arguments against her. I'm sure I don't have to tell you, but if you let complete strangers, specifically younger folks, know exactly how to push your buttons, know exactly which words upset you the most... you're going to discover a lot of anonymous messages that tell you exactly that. Especially when you then spend the next six months ignoring the thing you were given 160,000 dollars for and instead focus on delivering TED Talks about being trolled.

It's the extreme extent to which we go overboard about this topic over and over again. It seems completely unreasonable to the content being discussed and I would hope it would lead all of us to pause, reflect, and try to understand why that is. I have disagreed with Anita but have not been called a misogynist by anyone for doing so.

#360 Edited by John1912 (1906 posts) -

@Brodehouse:

@Humanity: "By a lot of women you mean, club dancers and fictional monsters? Where are all these undressed women in the game?"

Umm yea, that was my point, as you said there was absolutely nothing in the game that could be considered offensive to women. You seem to want to ignore it all together. There is a fair about, not a shit ton, but a fair amount. I havent seen a lot of ballz hot half naked witches. I didnt know that was typical of their mythos.

Lol, its funny. I dont give two shits about whats in this game. I think games are a sensationalist form of entertainment and thus are naturally forced into these types of issues, but I think your all pretty dense. You completely remove the apparent context and insert your own, or just remove all the context would be more accurate. How can you miss the context of how the women are inserted into the game for sexual circumstances? You seem to want to play devils advocate, but in doing so cant even see whats in front of you.

These are not real people. They dont have a back story. This isnt Suzy Sally who gets straight As, goes to church, and opps, got hammered, fell out of her clothes and fucked Dante on the one crazy night of her life.

They are constructed objects. They are there for a one purpose. When they are half naked and there to imply or show sex, thats all they are. They embody that trait. You dont pick it apart and look at them as people, and say well they made a fucking life choice to have group sex so thats ok, who the fuck am I to judge. They are simply sex, thus objectifying women for enjoyment of your gaming experience.

This is DMC, there is no subtext to this game. Take it at face value.

#361 Posted by Rhaknar (5939 posts) -

who?

#362 Posted by Brodehouse (10072 posts) -
@John1912

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912 here's the problem; 'attitudes, conditions, and behaviours that promote stereotyping' are _extremely difficult to pinpoint_ and require a lot of evidence, and must stand up to scrutiny. "These girls don't have clothes on so the game is saying women shouldn't wear clothes" is about as convincing a piece of evidence as "the only black character is a demon who is imprisoned, the game is saying black people should be in prison (and are demons)". Of course it doesn't, because that's an unreasonable extrapolation. Referencing the club girls... Well, I don't know if you've been to clubs, but the girls who work there (and many who frequent) generally dress provocatively. Representing women in dress appropriate for both the character and the situation is not 'creating behaviours and conditions that stereotype' it's creating a context that conforms to what we know to be true. That women who dance on poles and work at clubs generally wear lingerie. Showing women at clubs dancing on poles and wearing lingerie does not stereotype the entirety of women as pole dancers any more than the police officers who storm the safehouse stereotype men as ruthless killers.

Stand up to scrutiny? What? Pretty much every women in the game besides Kat is a half naked, vapid playing. You only have to look at them. They arent there for anything. They dont move the plot along, they dont have any meaningful dialog. They embody sexual objects. They specifically exist to promote sex. They are evidence unto themselves. How can you miss that?

Every woman in the game is a half-naked plaything... So club dancers who choose to be club dancers, choose to dress how they wish, and are actively interested in having sex with Dante, an athletic and attractive man, are vapid because ... Because why? Because they are women and their interests don't include astrophysics or the oncoming demon war, they include having consensual, casual sex? And this is a commentary on all women, except for the characters who are not the club dancers. The harpies and witches, their vapid interests are 'Kill Dante', which happens to be THE EXACT SAME INTEREST as the anonymous flying babies, S&M; monsters, and fat creatures (who Dante calls fatasses, you want to talk about hurtful language). Is that interest valid when it's a male gendered creature, but vapid when it's a female?

But furthermore, if this is the standard by which we have to judge the female characters, why do we not extend this to the males? Phineas advocates the death of a pregnant woman in order to kill the fetus; does this create behaviours, conditions and situations that stereotype black men as infanticidal demons? Every single male character in the game save one reference are depicted as being overtly violent... does this create a stereotype of men as violent killers, and why is no one ready to stand up for non-violent men who are being stereotyped? Do you know the only non-violent male characters in DmC? They're the scientist types who are mercilessly gunned down during the safehouse attack, and no one even cares. The only person who even reacts to the wholesale murder of men is Kat. How does that not reinforce male disposability?

Perhaps you're seeing the problem with 'behaviours and conditions that may lead to stereotyping'. All it requires is one action to extrapolate it as representative of an entire social group. If you start a show with a Mexican guy eating chips, it can be extrapolated to "the show is stereotyping Mexicans as all loving potato chips and that's not fair". It's the conflation of character _description_ as social _prescription_.

I write a story about an inner city youth who likes basketball, I'm not prescribing the stereotype that inner city youths like basketball. If the story is about his basketball game, and all the characters are inner city youths who like basketball, it is because that is the description of the story and its events, not a prescription for society. Under the kind of conspicuous inclusion demanded here, I would be demanded to include a character who doesn't like basketball, and to explain that just because all the characters who are playing basketball like basketball does not mean that that is all they like, and that there are other people in the world who have different personalities than those expressed within the story. We don't require that, because it goes without saying. Because people generally aren't complete idiots. They will PRETEND to be complete idiots however, if sex is involved.
#363 Posted by Sergio (2160 posts) -
#364 Posted by Undeadpool (4958 posts) -

@rebgav said:

Question: Is DmC: DMC a sexist game?

Answer: Devil may Cry: Devil May Cry is a slightly lackluster third person action game with a rather genericized take on the characters and lore of the franchise, so who cares? Is anyone asking if DMC 2 was a sexist game? No? Then why apply that sort of scrutiny to this iteration? Why is it a relevant factor in the discussion about this game but not in the discussion about the HD Collection which came out last year? Ninja Theory's track record suggests that they are one of the very, very few developers who attempt to put female characters of any significance whatsoever in their games, so I guess they bring it on themselves?

I'm still waiting to see this amazing, nuanced, subtle, multi-layered Devil May Cry 1-4 that the fanboys seem to hold up against DmC being "generic." The most interesting thing about Dante in the original games was he was a shit-talker.

#365 Posted by depecheload (496 posts) -

@algertman said:

Anita Sarkeesian tweeted she hates the game.

https://twitter.com/femfreq

So here's the thing. Since the gaming press is filled with white knights and people who refuse to call her out for not having a single YouTube video ready yet will they start to back track on DmC? This game reviewed well and currently in the mid 80's range on metacritic with reviewers.

She said it was adolescent and she hated the sexism in the game.

Learn to read.

Or learn to blatantly lie better.

#367 Posted by mlarrabee (2993 posts) -

@Ravenlight said:

Just checking in before bed. Everyone still riled up? Affirmative.

Are there any games that paint a female character in a feminist-approved, non-sexist light that aren't also boring as sin? I'm not being cheeky here, I'd really like to check out some examples. And, no, RapeLay does not count.

Crysis 2's Tara Strickland is a great example. They didn't feel the need to strip her of her femininity to make her strong, and she's a believable character. Too many writers give their female characters masculine traits. "See, we're egalitarian because this woman has the upper body strength of a man and she's the sexual aggressor." That's just as sexist because it presumes that women and men can't be equal while remaining different; they must be homogenous and on the male end of the spectrum. Miss Strickland is both perfectly competent and perfectly female. Plus, Crysis 2 is a great game in its own right. I replayed it recently as a stealth game, assassinating every possible enemy.

#368 Posted by Nicked (256 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912 here's the problem; 'attitudes, conditions, and behaviours that promote stereotyping' are _extremely difficult to pinpoint_ and require a lot of evidence, and must stand up to scrutiny. "These girls don't have clothes on so the game is saying women shouldn't wear clothes" is about as convincing a piece of evidence as "the only black character is a demon who is imprisoned, the game is saying black people should be in prison (and are demons)". Of course it doesn't, because that's an unreasonable extrapolation. Referencing the club girls... Well, I don't know if you've been to clubs, but the girls who work there (and many who frequent) generally dress provocatively. Representing women in dress appropriate for both the character and the situation is not 'creating behaviours and conditions that stereotype' it's creating a context that conforms to what we know to be true. That women who dance on poles and work at clubs generally wear lingerie. Showing women at clubs dancing on poles and wearing lingerie does not stereotype the entirety of women as pole dancers any more than the police officers who storm the safehouse stereotype men as ruthless killers.

Stand up to scrutiny? What? Pretty much every women in the game besides Kat is a half naked, vapid playing. You only have to look at them. They arent there for anything. They dont move the plot along, they dont have any meaningful dialog. They embody sexual objects. They specifically exist to promote sex. They are evidence unto themselves. How can you miss that?

Every woman in the game is a half-naked plaything... So club dancers who choose to be club dancers, choose to dress how they wish, and are actively interested in having sex with Dante, an athletic and attractive man, are vapid because ... Because why? Because they are women and their interests don't include astrophysics or the oncoming demon war, they include having consensual, casual sex? And this is a commentary on all women, except for the characters who are not the club dancers. The harpies and witches, their vapid interests are 'Kill Dante', which happens to be THE EXACT SAME INTEREST as the anonymous flying babies, S&M; monsters, and fat creatures (who Dante calls fatasses, you want to talk about hurtful language). Is that interest valid when it's a male gendered creature, but vapid when it's a female? But furthermore, if this is the standard by which we have to judge the female characters, why do we not extend this to the males? Phineas advocates the death of a pregnant woman in order to kill the fetus; does this create behaviours, conditions and situations that stereotype black men as infanticidal demons? Every single male character in the game save one reference are depicted as being overtly violent... does this create a stereotype of men as violent killers, and why is no one ready to stand up for non-violent men who are being stereotyped? Do you know the only non-violent male characters in DmC? They're the scientist types who are mercilessly gunned down during the safehouse attack, and no one even cares. The only person who even reacts to the wholesale murder of men is Kat. How does that not reinforce male disposability? Perhaps you're seeing the problem with 'behaviours and conditions that may lead to stereotyping'. All it requires is one action to extrapolate it as representative of an entire social group. If you start a show with a Mexican guy eating chips, it can be extrapolated to "the show is stereotyping Mexicans as all loving potato chips and that's not fair". It's the conflation of character _description_ as social _prescription_. I write a story about an inner city youth who likes basketball, I'm not prescribing the stereotype that inner city youths like basketball. If the story is about his basketball game, and all the characters are inner city youths who like basketball, it is because that is the description of the story and its events, not a prescription for society. Under the kind of conspicuous inclusion demanded here, I would be demanded to include a character who doesn't like basketball, and to explain that just because all the characters who are playing basketball like basketball does not mean that that is all they like, and that there are other people in the world who have different personalities than those expressed within the story. We don't require that, because it goes without saying. Because people generally aren't complete idiots. They will PRETEND to be complete idiots however, if sex is involved.

So I think the reason people don't critique the way men are portrayed is because men don't really have a history of being oppressed. Furthermore, I think it's fair to say that men are represented in a greater variety of ways. The Hero can be a man, so can The Bad Guy, The Side-kick, and so on. Comparatively, women are often represented as sexual objects, as 'there for the pleasure of the man's gaze' (that is, you don't see many games where women are hero, bad guy, and side-kick, if you get what I'm saying). So (from the Quick Look) stuff like the lingering shots on that girl's ass work to portray her as a sexual object despite any agency she might have. Women seemingly MUST have sexual value to exist in games. My understanding is that the camera gets a little lascivious with Dante as well, but I think you'd agree that this is not the norm for most games.

What you need to look at when talking about "sexism in media" is not just one game, or one movie, one show, one story, etc., but broader representational patterns. Not "this one Mexican on this one show does this" but "Mexicans throughout an industry are represented as potato chip lovers".

One interesting question to ask w/r/t this is 'can you name an ugly actress?' ('fat actress' works as well). I suspect you'll be hard-pressed to name one off the top of your head, and you'll certainly have to look outside Hollywood.

And look, I'm not trying to say that Western women are ALWAYS poorly represented or that they don't have the same opportunities men do, etc.. I'm not intending to demonize sex or sexuality. I just don't think you can look at games (or film) as a medium and say "women are being represented equally".

#369 Edited by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

Whoever wins, we lose.

Okay so as not to just give nothing to the conversation, I think what the critical press misses here is how awful DmC's story is in general. It's no surprise that a story this childishly-written has immature depictions of anything, that includes women. No one gets out of this game with dignity intact and at times it's incredibly exploitative.

DMC never was a masterpiece, but it was good at what it was. A simple story that was the background for an adventure. DMC3 did it best. DmC thinks it's Shakespearian but is as poor as Fifty Shades of Grey. I don't feel like getting too into detail on why, but if you've seen the story in this game, you'll know what I mean.

#370 Posted by fallen_rock2 (45 posts) -

That lady is a marketing genius. I am truly in awe of how skillfully she handles her PR to whip up a frenzy and score more cash for herself. Despicable and admirable at the same time.

#371 Posted by FunkasaurasRex (847 posts) -

I fear that one of these days I might read the term "white knight" on the internet and my eyes will roll so hard that they'll end up in the back of my head and never return.

#372 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

Oh dear god, why won't this thread end already? It's never a good sign when a topic has as many replies as this.

#373 Posted by Undeadpool (4958 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@Undeadpool said:

@rebgav said:

Question: Is DmC: DMC a sexist game?

Answer: Devil may Cry: Devil May Cry is a slightly lackluster third person action game with a rather genericized take on the characters and lore of the franchise, so who cares? Is anyone asking if DMC 2 was a sexist game? No? Then why apply that sort of scrutiny to this iteration? Why is it a relevant factor in the discussion about this game but not in the discussion about the HD Collection which came out last year? Ninja Theory's track record suggests that they are one of the very, very few developers who attempt to put female characters of any significance whatsoever in their games, so I guess they bring it on themselves?

I'm still waiting to see this amazing, nuanced, subtle, multi-layered Devil May Cry 1-4 that the fanboys seem to hold up against DmC being "generic." The most interesting thing about Dante in the original games was he was a shit-talker.

I'm not a big DMC cheerleader but the versions of the characters and story in the new game are thoroughly uninspired, no comparison necessary. If there isn't a free online superhero script template already then DmC is a great candidate to fill that void.

This is the most frequent response to the question I posed, which always makes me wonder: why'd you invite the comparison in the first place? Just say you find the characters/designs/whatever bland and uninspired, no need to mention the first games (bland and uninspired in their own way) at all.

#374 Posted by Brodehouse (10072 posts) -
@Nicked

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912 here's the problem; 'attitudes, conditions, and behaviours that promote stereotyping' are _extremely difficult to pinpoint_ and require a lot of evidence, and must stand up to scrutiny. "These girls don't have clothes on so the game is saying women shouldn't wear clothes" is about as convincing a piece of evidence as "the only black character is a demon who is imprisoned, the game is saying black people should be in prison (and are demons)". Of course it doesn't, because that's an unreasonable extrapolation. Referencing the club girls... Well, I don't know if you've been to clubs, but the girls who work there (and many who frequent) generally dress provocatively. Representing women in dress appropriate for both the character and the situation is not 'creating behaviours and conditions that stereotype' it's creating a context that conforms to what we know to be true. That women who dance on poles and work at clubs generally wear lingerie. Showing women at clubs dancing on poles and wearing lingerie does not stereotype the entirety of women as pole dancers any more than the police officers who storm the safehouse stereotype men as ruthless killers.

Stand up to scrutiny? What? Pretty much every women in the game besides Kat is a half naked, vapid playing. You only have to look at them. They arent there for anything. They dont move the plot along, they dont have any meaningful dialog. They embody sexual objects. They specifically exist to promote sex. They are evidence unto themselves. How can you miss that?

Every woman in the game is a half-naked plaything... So club dancers who choose to be club dancers, choose to dress how they wish, and are actively interested in having sex with Dante, an athletic and attractive man, are vapid because ... Because why? Because they are women and their interests don't include astrophysics or the oncoming demon war, they include having consensual, casual sex? And this is a commentary on all women, except for the characters who are not the club dancers. The harpies and witches, their vapid interests are 'Kill Dante', which happens to be THE EXACT SAME INTEREST as the anonymous flying babies, S&M; monsters, and fat creatures (who Dante calls fatasses, you want to talk about hurtful language). Is that interest valid when it's a male gendered creature, but vapid when it's a female? But furthermore, if this is the standard by which we have to judge the female characters, why do we not extend this to the males? Phineas advocates the death of a pregnant woman in order to kill the fetus; does this create behaviours, conditions and situations that stereotype black men as infanticidal demons? Every single male character in the game save one reference are depicted as being overtly violent... does this create a stereotype of men as violent killers, and why is no one ready to stand up for non-violent men who are being stereotyped? Do you know the only non-violent male characters in DmC? They're the scientist types who are mercilessly gunned down during the safehouse attack, and no one even cares. The only person who even reacts to the wholesale murder of men is Kat. How does that not reinforce male disposability? Perhaps you're seeing the problem with 'behaviours and conditions that may lead to stereotyping'. All it requires is one action to extrapolate it as representative of an entire social group. If you start a show with a Mexican guy eating chips, it can be extrapolated to "the show is stereotyping Mexicans as all loving potato chips and that's not fair". It's the conflation of character _description_ as social _prescription_. I write a story about an inner city youth who likes basketball, I'm not prescribing the stereotype that inner city youths like basketball. If the story is about his basketball game, and all the characters are inner city youths who like basketball, it is because that is the description of the story and its events, not a prescription for society. Under the kind of conspicuous inclusion demanded here, I would be demanded to include a character who doesn't like basketball, and to explain that just because all the characters who are playing basketball like basketball does not mean that that is all they like, and that there are other people in the world who have different personalities than those expressed within the story. We don't require that, because it goes without saying. Because people generally aren't complete idiots. They will PRETEND to be complete idiots however, if sex is involved.

So I think the reason people don't critique the way men are portrayed is because men don't really have a history of being oppressed. Furthermore, I think it's fair to say that men are represented in a greater variety of ways. The Hero can be a man, so can The Bad Guy, The Side-kick, and so on. Comparatively, women are often represented as sexual objects, as 'there for the pleasure of the man's gaze' (that is, you don't see many games where women are hero, bad guy, and side-kick, if you get what I'm saying). So (from the Quick Look) stuff like the lingering shots on that girl's ass work to portray her as a sexual object despite any agency she might have. Women seemingly MUST have sexual value to exist in games. My understanding is that the camera gets a little lascivious with Dante as well, but I think you'd agree that this is not the norm for most games.

What you need to look at when talking about "sexism in media" is not just one game, or one movie, one show, one story, etc., but broader representational patterns. Not "this one Mexican on this one show does this" but "Mexicans throughout an industry are represented as potato chip lovers".

One interesting question to ask w/r/t this is 'can you name an ugly actress?' ('fat actress' works as well). I suspect you'll be hard-pressed to name one off the top of your head, and you'll certainly have to look outside Hollywood.

And look, I'm not trying to say that Western women are ALWAYS poorly represented or that they don't have the same opportunities men do, etc.. I'm not intending to demonize sex or sexuality. I just don't think you can look at games (or film) as a medium and say "women are being represented equally".

Really now? Men don't have a history of being oppressed? Could've fooled 99% of the human population throughout the history of civilization. If all you have to justify inequality is that you heard of Patriarchy Theory, then I have a few videos made by some women that can thoroughly debunk that for you. It also doesn't clear up the idea that since, theoretically since men have never been oppressed, inequal treatment of the genders today is ethically appropriate. That is not a logical argument that stands up to scrutiny.

As for objectification, I don't think you understand the full meaning of that word. Objectification is a relatively common mental process in which humans identify people based on their needs, desires or interrelation with that person. The wait staff are objects of production, strippers are objects of sexual gratification, armed criminals are objects of threat, police officers are objects of potential violence. We simultaneously have the ability to recognize someone's personhood, and also be interested in them for specific reasons. But once again, the only thing we care about being careful around, is sexual interest. This is for no other reason than our own social taboos involving sex, ones based in Victorian (hell, Bronze Age) social mores and being completely irrelevant to modern culture. It's okay to like someone because they make you laugh (comedic objectification), it is not okay to like someone because they sexually attract you (sexual objectification). In thjs we actually manage to be equal, as society shames and penalizes women for sarisfying their sexual desires and consuming media that is appealing to them on a sexual level. Well, I don't buy in.

For the record, when talking about fictional characters, they are all objects of entertainment. Do you know what you call a fictional character who says, does and is nothing interesting to anyone? Non-existent.

I find your 'fat actress' question to be perhaps poorly researched. You realize Melissa McCarthy has two starring roles (in some pretty abysmal looking comedies) this summer, right? It's because people found her funny. Megan Fox has a career because people found her sexually appealing. Neither is more 'right', and neither of them have been 'victimized'. Girls who go to Robert Pattinson movies are not victimizing him by being primarily interested in him sexually. Remember that show Roseanne? It was because she was funny. Rememer Dark Angel? It was because she was pretty (and Jim Cameron was involved). People get entertainment work based on people's desire to be entertained by them. The idea that one is less valid because its sexual, F that.

And contrary to your belief, when discussing sexism in a specific source, you actually do have to provide evidence from that source, you cannot reference the broader medium when discussing something in particular. This is core piece of logic here. The specific is described by its specifics, not by the general. You cannot call the police and say you are reporting a crime, and then when they arrive tell them that what happened is not technically a crime in and of itself, but when you consider broader representational patterns of actual crimes that are actually committed, then what happened here is a crime. I'd break out the algebra but I'm on my phone, cut me some slack.
#375 Posted by Demoskinos (15013 posts) -

@EnduranceFun said:

Whoever wins, we lose.

Okay so as not to just give nothing to the conversation, I think what the critical press misses here is how awful DmC's story is in general. It's no surprise that a story this childishly-written has immature depictions of anything, that includes women. No one gets out of this game with dignity intact and at times it's incredibly exploitative.

DMC never was a masterpiece, but it was good at what it was. A simple story that was the background for an adventure. DMC3 did it best. DmC thinks it's Shakespearian but is as poor as Fifty Shades of Grey. I don't feel like getting too into detail on why, but if you've seen the story in this game, you'll know what I mean.

No, I don't. I thought it was a fairly decent story for a series who has had no story up until this point.

#376 Posted by SlashDance (1828 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@EnduranceFun said:

Whoever wins, we lose.

Okay so as not to just give nothing to the conversation, I think what the critical press misses here is how awful DmC's story is in general. It's no surprise that a story this childishly-written has immature depictions of anything, that includes women. No one gets out of this game with dignity intact and at times it's incredibly exploitative.

DMC never was a masterpiece, but it was good at what it was. A simple story that was the background for an adventure. DMC3 did it best. DmC thinks it's Shakespearian but is as poor as Fifty Shades of Grey. I don't feel like getting too into detail on why, but if you've seen the story in this game, you'll know what I mean.

No, I don't. I thought it was a fairly decent story for a series who has had no story up until this point.

I have not seen all of it yet (I'm at mission 17), but I agree. For a video game story, it's not as bad as I was led to believe. I did really enjoy DMC3 at the time but I find DmC's characters to be more believable.

#377 Posted by Demoskinos (15013 posts) -

@Nicked said:

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912

@Brodehouse said:

@John1912 here's the problem; 'attitudes, conditions, and behaviours that promote stereotyping' are _extremely difficult to pinpoint_ and require a lot of evidence, and must stand up to scrutiny. "These girls don't have clothes on so the game is saying women shouldn't wear clothes" is about as convincing a piece of evidence as "the only black character is a demon who is imprisoned, the game is saying black people should be in prison (and are demons)". Of course it doesn't, because that's an unreasonable extrapolation. Referencing the club girls... Well, I don't know if you've been to clubs, but the girls who work there (and many who frequent) generally dress provocatively. Representing women in dress appropriate for both the character and the situation is not 'creating behaviours and conditions that stereotype' it's creating a context that conforms to what we know to be true. That women who dance on poles and work at clubs generally wear lingerie. Showing women at clubs dancing on poles and wearing lingerie does not stereotype the entirety of women as pole dancers any more than the police officers who storm the safehouse stereotype men as ruthless killers.

Stand up to scrutiny? What? Pretty much every women in the game besides Kat is a half naked, vapid playing. You only have to look at them. They arent there for anything. They dont move the plot along, they dont have any meaningful dialog. They embody sexual objects. They specifically exist to promote sex. They are evidence unto themselves. How can you miss that?

Every woman in the game is a half-naked plaything... So club dancers who choose to be club dancers, choose to dress how they wish, and are actively interested in having sex with Dante, an athletic and attractive man, are vapid because ... Because why? Because they are women and their interests don't include astrophysics or the oncoming demon war, they include having consensual, casual sex? And this is a commentary on all women, except for the characters who are not the club dancers. The harpies and witches, their vapid interests are 'Kill Dante', which happens to be THE EXACT SAME INTEREST as the anonymous flying babies, S&M; monsters, and fat creatures (who Dante calls fatasses, you want to talk about hurtful language). Is that interest valid when it's a male gendered creature, but vapid when it's a female? But furthermore, if this is the standard by which we have to judge the female characters, why do we not extend this to the males? Phineas advocates the death of a pregnant woman in order to kill the fetus; does this create behaviours, conditions and situations that stereotype black men as infanticidal demons? Every single male character in the game save one reference are depicted as being overtly violent... does this create a stereotype of men as violent killers, and why is no one ready to stand up for non-violent men who are being stereotyped? Do you know the only non-violent male characters in DmC? They're the scientist types who are mercilessly gunned down during the safehouse attack, and no one even cares. The only person who even reacts to the wholesale murder of men is Kat. How does that not reinforce male disposability? Perhaps you're seeing the problem with 'behaviours and conditions that may lead to stereotyping'. All it requires is one action to extrapolate it as representative of an entire social group. If you start a show with a Mexican guy eating chips, it can be extrapolated to "the show is stereotyping Mexicans as all loving potato chips and that's not fair". It's the conflation of character _description_ as social _prescription_. I write a story about an inner city youth who likes basketball, I'm not prescribing the stereotype that inner city youths like basketball. If the story is about his basketball game, and all the characters are inner city youths who like basketball, it is because that is the description of the story and its events, not a prescription for society. Under the kind of conspicuous inclusion demanded here, I would be demanded to include a character who doesn't like basketball, and to explain that just because all the characters who are playing basketball like basketball does not mean that that is all they like, and that there are other people in the world who have different personalities than those expressed within the story. We don't require that, because it goes without saying. Because people generally aren't complete idiots. They will PRETEND to be complete idiots however, if sex is involved.

So I think the reason people don't critique the way men are portrayed is because men don't really have a history of being oppressed. Furthermore, I think it's fair to say that men are represented in a greater variety of ways. The Hero can be a man, so can The Bad Guy, The Side-kick, and so on. Comparatively, women are often represented as sexual objects, as 'there for the pleasure of the man's gaze' (that is, you don't see many games where women are hero, bad guy, and side-kick, if you get what I'm saying). So (from the Quick Look) stuff like the lingering shots on that girl's ass work to portray her as a sexual object despite any agency she might have. Women seemingly MUST have sexual value to exist in games. My understanding is that the camera gets a little lascivious with Dante as well, but I think you'd agree that this is not the norm for most games.

What you need to look at when talking about "sexism in media" is not just one game, or one movie, one show, one story, etc., but broader representational patterns. Not "this one Mexican on this one show does this" but "Mexicans throughout an industry are represented as potato chip lovers".

One interesting question to ask w/r/t this is 'can you name an ugly actress?' ('fat actress' works as well). I suspect you'll be hard-pressed to name one off the top of your head, and you'll certainly have to look outside Hollywood.

And look, I'm not trying to say that Western women are ALWAYS poorly represented or that they don't have the same opportunities men do, etc.. I'm not intending to demonize sex or sexuality. I just don't think you can look at games (or film) as a medium and say "women are being represented equally".

If anyone is sexualized in this game its Dante. He starts out naked with incredibly long lingering shots on his washboard abs and perfectly toned chest. Secondly, saying that women can't exist in games without sexual value is utterly ridiculous and kind of an insult to women.

#378 Edited by EnduranceFun (1114 posts) -

Don't know what you guys are smoking. These characters have motivations that jump around like fleas and never make any sense. One second a character is a good guy, the next he's out to destroy the world. Another basically makes no change except randomly going from loner to hero because of knowing a bland love interest for a short period of time. Mundus, despite going through the most of any character, doesn't change at all and that's basically all she wrote.

Not to mention the awful dialogue that makes every character sound like an idiot.

Simple =/= non-existent. Simple > convoluted and stupid.

#379 Posted by Humanity (9589 posts) -

@John1912: But I asked you where all these other women are which you didn't answer. Apart from the opening cinematic where Dante is in an adult bar that features strippers - there are literally no other women in the entire game apart from Kat. There is the demon lady who is so grotesque that I'd fail to classify her as an objectification of women but rather as an instrument in making the player uncomfortable and repelled. I suppose you can say, well why didn't they make it a male demon? Why does it have to be a female demon that is grotesque and disturbing? I guess they just wanted to have an attractive hero with an attractive female sidekick go up against an ugly villain with an ugly mistress. I guess I'm just dense and the whole scene where she is having sex while bent over a desk is objectifying women as submissive toys, who knows! Apart from these two, lets look at all the other half naked women Dante encounters throughout the game that are not enemies: I suppose there are women in the Soda factory during the cutscene and I don't remember them being half naked. As for the monsters, well as I mentioned before Harpies were always half women, go google it, the other were some sort of dolls or something? But at this point you're trying to tell me that these completely no human looking monstrosities which happen to have breasts are in some form objectifying women or being sexist and once again maybe I'm super dense but it just seems like a pretty far stretch. To be honest I wasn't quite aware that they had breasts because it's not like you really have a lot of time to linger and look while you're chaining combos. If the moment anything has breasts it automatically becomes a constructed object with the distinct purpose to embody sex then were all in trouble.

#380 Posted by Brodehouse (10072 posts) -
@EnduranceFun I think the story in DmC is rather pedestrian (WORKMANLIKE?!?!) but what I'm really into is the visual style, the overall kind of punkrock attitude of the game (which it does nail), and the combat is pretty great. The characters don't do a lot for me besides the fact that they look INCREDIBLE on PC with everything maxed. I do like new Dante, he actually seems like the mouthy, over-sexed cocksure prick that the other DMC games wanted him to be. And despite rather average writing, they are well performed.
#381 Posted by kagato (944 posts) -

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

@kagato said:

Sounds to me like she is trying to create a reason for people to talk about here again...and you all walked straight into her trap...crap..so did i huh?

Talking about her doesn't mean shit. People say there's no such thing as bad publicity, and that might be true in some cases but it's also mostly bullshit. So long as you don't get her view count up and don't fund any future kickstarters it's fine.

True, id never fund anything she did anyway, she lost the moral high ground the second she decided to cheat people out of their cash.

#383 Posted by Undeadpool (4958 posts) -

@rebgav: We seem to be arguing two things: the game is so non-sexist, I don't really find it worth arguing and OP's intent was paint everyone who disagrees with him as "white knights" anyway, so both arguments are silly. That and the fact that sexism in games was a great deal less debated when the original came out, so the fact that it drew no ire isn't really relevant. I was more referring to the general aesthetic, which I actually find a great deal more evocative and striking than the original tetralogy.

#385 Edited by Robo (807 posts) -

@John1912 said:

@Brodehouse: @Humanity: "By a lot of women you mean, club dancers and fictional monsters? Where are all these undressed women in the game?"

Umm yea, that was my point, as you said there was absolutely nothing in the game that could be considered offensive to women. You seem to want to ignore it all together. There is a fair about, not a shit ton, but a fair amount. I havent seen a lot of ballz hot half naked witches. I didnt know that was typical of their mythos.

Lol, its funny. I dont give two shits about whats in this game. I think games are a sensationalist form of entertainment and thus are naturally forced into these types of issues, but I think your all pretty dense. You completely remove the apparent context and insert your own, or just remove all the context would be more accurate. How can you miss the context of how the women are inserted into the game for sexual circumstances? You seem to want to play devils advocate, but in doing so cant even see whats in front of you.

These are not real people. They dont have a back story. This isnt Suzy Sally who gets straight As, goes to church, and opps, got hammered, fell out of her clothes and fucked Dante on the one crazy night of her life.

They are constructed objects. They are there for a one purpose. When they are half naked and there to imply or show sex, thats all they are. They embody that trait. You dont pick it apart and look at them as people, and say well they made a fucking life choice to have group sex so thats ok, who the fuck am I to judge. They are simply sex, thus objectifying women for enjoyment of your gaming experience.

This is DMC, there is no subtext to this game. Take it at face value.

I'd like to keep it civil but wow, you're completely full of it.

If I were a fictional magic-wielding demonic entity living in Limbo with the ability to teleport, shield myself, materialize weapons and objects from thin air, and fly - all while being in great physical condition with awesome glowing blue skin and black eyes, I probably would be wearing less than the "witches" in DmC. Actually, I know I would, because I'm a dude...so nipples aren't just OK, they're encouraged.

The point is I think your confusing the whole witch concept and mythology we're used to with the name being applied to what is really little more than a demon in the game. Just like "witches" in Left 4 Dead are not witches...they're just called that.

That said, the witches in DmC really need explanation, considering there's nothing particularly sexist about them outside whatever may be going on in your mind that doesn't jibe with your other, more puritanical notions towards the human form.

Maybe I'm getting a little up there in age and my drive is slowing down a bit since the days of high school and college...or maybe I'm a little desensitized by the women I know here in reality and kind of don't care that a random enemy in a game is "ballz hot" and "half naked." but my initial thought as a rational, well-adjusted adult male playing a video game was quite simply, "Hey, that's a cool looking character." followed quickly by, "HOW THE HELL DO I BREAK THIS SHIELD?!" and little else than, "Hell yeah that combo was badass." in the end.

In regards to your almost offensively absurd and obtuse view on "constructed objects:" The characters are not "simply sex"...they're just female humanoids. Did you ever stop to think you're the one with the problem since you immediately connect any and all depiction of the female body with sex and objectification?

Of course not.

#386 Posted by Crysack (327 posts) -

@Undeadpool said:

@rebgav said:

Question: Is DmC: DMC a sexist game?

Answer: Devil may Cry: Devil May Cry is a slightly lackluster third person action game with a rather genericized take on the characters and lore of the franchise, so who cares? Is anyone asking if DMC 2 was a sexist game? No? Then why apply that sort of scrutiny to this iteration? Why is it a relevant factor in the discussion about this game but not in the discussion about the HD Collection which came out last year? Ninja Theory's track record suggests that they are one of the very, very few developers who attempt to put female characters of any significance whatsoever in their games, so I guess they bring it on themselves?

I'm still waiting to see this amazing, nuanced, subtle, multi-layered Devil May Cry 1-4 that the fanboys seem to hold up against DmC being "generic." The most interesting thing about Dante in the original games was he was a shit-talker.

Personally, just as with any other action game, I could not give two shits about the story or characters. As far as I am concerned, Dante has always been basically a non-character and he still is a non-character in the new game. He may as well be a brick wall for all I care.

What I do care about is gameplay and DmC still falls flat compared to 3 and 4.

#387 Posted by Dagbiker (6978 posts) -

You do realize that of the three most fleshed out charactures in DMC, 2 were male, one was female, of those, the two male characters weren't even human. So the single most fleshed out Human characture was a Human. That, in the end, was given credit by Dante for Saving the day, and freeing the word from the immortal demon boss.

Yah, DMC is really fucking sexist toward woman. That, or you guys are just predisposed to looking down on woman. Whatever.

#388 Posted by voltronadactylsaurusrex (69 posts) -

The constant over-analysis of every fucking game will be the death of the this industry.

#389 Posted by Pr1mus (3951 posts) -

Oh hey, with that whole Ben Kuchera debacle i had forgotten that this too was indeed a thread.

#390 Posted by Undeadpool (4958 posts) -

@Crysack said:

@Undeadpool said:

@rebgav said:

Question: Is DmC: DMC a sexist game?

Answer: Devil may Cry: Devil May Cry is a slightly lackluster third person action game with a rather genericized take on the characters and lore of the franchise, so who cares? Is anyone asking if DMC 2 was a sexist game? No? Then why apply that sort of scrutiny to this iteration? Why is it a relevant factor in the discussion about this game but not in the discussion about the HD Collection which came out last year? Ninja Theory's track record suggests that they are one of the very, very few developers who attempt to put female characters of any significance whatsoever in their games, so I guess they bring it on themselves?

I'm still waiting to see this amazing, nuanced, subtle, multi-layered Devil May Cry 1-4 that the fanboys seem to hold up against DmC being "generic." The most interesting thing about Dante in the original games was he was a shit-talker.

Personally, just as with any other action game, I could not give two shits about the story or characters. As far as I am concerned, Dante has always been basically a non-character and he still is a non-character in the new game. He may as well be a brick wall for all I care.

What I do care about is gameplay and DmC still falls flat compared to 3 and 4.

DMC3 had challenge going for it (or against it...), but I actually think, with the whole L/R button setup, that this game's combat is actually a great deal more nuanced. Especially compared to 4, which I have never heard praised so much as when this game came out.

#391 Posted by rolanthas (247 posts) -

@Undeadpool said:

Especially compared to 4, which I have never heard praised so much as when this game came out.

I'm sorry for editing your quote, and going a bit off topic here, but this, so much this. I can't believe people go back and praise that boring, backwards game. It improved upon its predecessor in 2-3 aspects of combat, and went backwards in literally everything else. For the first time in 10 years, I am actually ashamed for ever calling myself a DMC fan, after seeing what that word really implies.

Fuck it.

/rant

#392 Posted by Undeadpool (4958 posts) -

@rolanthas said:

@Undeadpool said:

Especially compared to 4, which I have never heard praised so much as when this game came out.

I'm sorry for editing your quote, and going a bit off topic here, but this, so much this. I can't believe people go back and praise that boring, backwards game. It improved upon its predecessor in 2-3 aspects of combat, and went backwards in literally everything else. For the first time in 10 years, I am actually ashamed for ever calling myself a DMC fan, after seeing what that word really implies.

Fuck it.

/rant

Batman Pikachu can edit whatever the fuck he wants! Also having essentially a Dante palette swap with an even LESS established/fleshed out/INTERESTING story and calling him a brand new character was a big letdown.

It's also not limited to this franchise: just look at how suddenly praiseworthy Mass Effect 2 became after 3 came out.

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