Impressions & Discussion thread

#1 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

Okay, since the game is officially "out" now I figure I'd make a thread for general impressions and discussion. If you need a help with a boss... finding a collectible or just want to discuss the game in general. And if you haven't actually PLAYED the game yet I'm kindly asking you to not post until you actually play the actual retail release of the game so us that are playing the game can discuss it.

Anyways, first impressions are pretty damn strong with me. I just did the second mission and now that the move set is starting to get more fleshed out I'm starting to get really at home with the combat. Also, I think the "limbo" thing just generally allows them to do some really damn cool stuff with the level design. Some actual decent platforming sections. Well, maybe they aren't "good" platforming sections but they aren't bad either and they at least look really flashy. I did get the PS3 version and sadly there are a few technical hiccups. First off when the game first loads cut-scenes I notice there is usually some stuttering audio for a second or so after the load which is annoying. Also, load times are kinda bad on PS3 the game looks nice though and I feel just controls better overall on a dualshock or well... at least I'm more at home using a dualshock. Looking at the upgrade screen here there are some damn interesting upgrades to sift through. Stuff like an "Angel Dodge" which is like a regular dodge but its a last minute dodge if done correctly will grant you a brief window of invincibility.

I'm also really liking the banter between the characters so far. Dante is great and I think Kat is shaping up to be one of the better female characters in awhile. Anyways, its 2:30am and I think I might hang it up for the night. Got wendsay and thursday off work so can't wait to get some more in later in the week! Personally DMC 3 is on my top 5 list of my favorite games of all time and honestly I think they did right by DMC so far. And lastly, PLEASE PLAY NICE KIDS DON'T TURN THIS THREAD INTO A FUCKING SHIT STORM.

#2 Posted by Nettacki (1317 posts) -

Kat? One of the better female characters? From what I hear, her role in the game is practically nonexistent and eventually she gets captured just to provide shallow love interest fodder for Dante. Admittedly, Trish in DMC1 wasn't much better, but at least she got better in 4.

#3 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

Oh, one last note. I'd recommend anyone who has played a DMC game before just go straight for nephilim difficulty mode.

#4 Posted by Gravier251 (217 posts) -

I really enjoyed my time with it and I agree that Kat is a pretty good character. There are some pretty strong moments with her as the game progresses. As for the limbo design and platforming if you already like it at the second mission mark, then you will likely enjoy it even more later in the game as they get even more wild and inventive with it.

I played through on Nephilim difficulty first and i'd recommend people try that if they have some experience with the series. Though the difficulty select screen points that out aswell. With all the extra difficulties it has quite good replayability aswell, with entirely different enemy layouts on Son of Sparda mode along with the fact that levels (even the first) have numerous hidden pathways that can only be accessed if you have certain weaponry/tools that you get much later into the game.

I had a lot of fun with it and the narrative can be a bit silly/wild, but in a good way. There are moments in the game where I came to realise I actually care about the characters and what happens to them. Even Dante has some serious, well done moments and he grows as a character over the course of the game. I really hope Ninja Theory get to continue with the license, I love what they have done with it and the characters.

#5 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

@Gravier251: Nice. I'm glad to see that Ninja Theory isn't afraid to let the action simmer a bit at times and actually develop the characters and yeah all of the locked doors and whatnot are already taunting me. Can't wait to go back through and mop up with a serious second run for "SSS" mission ranks.

#6 Posted by SlashDance (1814 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

Oh, one last note. I'd recommend anyone who has played a DMC game before just go straight for nephilim difficulty mode.

Thanks for the tip.

#7 Posted by wemibelec90 (1631 posts) -

Can't wait to get my copy! Playing through the first three first, since I just recently picked up the HD collection. I had played 1 when it came out but have never touched 2 and 3 (and played 4 when it came out too). I want to see all the games before I move to the new one - even though I know that I don't really need to.

Online
#8 Posted by aurahack (2270 posts) -

I'm really tempted to get it now, but I think I'll wait for the PC version. Playing it at 60fps sounds woooooonderful.

#9 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

@aurahack said:

I'm really tempted to get it now, but I think I'll wait for the PC version. Playing it at 60fps sounds woooooonderful.

If you have the PC to run it I'd say that is def the way to go. Sadly, my PC's Radeon 5570 would probably just end up with me getting about the same performance I'd get on the consoles anyways.

@wemibelec90 said:

Can't wait to get my copy! Playing through the first three first, since I just recently picked up the HD collection. I had played 1 when it came out but have never touched 2 and 3 (and played 4 when it came out too). I want to see all the games before I move to the new one - even though I know that I don't really need to.

Played a ton of HD collection last year went through trying to get all the trophies and man I got stuck trying to beat Dante Must Die on DMC 1 the 2nd Nightmare fight is just hanging me up. I don't even wanna think about the third. XD

#10 Posted by Winternet (8014 posts) -

Wait, a thread about discussing the game and not the reviews? I don't get it.

#11 Posted by cannonballBAM (602 posts) -

@Demoskinos: I would try it Demo.

Check out what the going frame rate is.

I have a GTX 460 SE 2 and I cap out at 100 fps.

#12 Posted by Solh0und (1765 posts) -

Still have to pick up my copy but I have work all afternoon :(

So swan diving into the hard difficulty is the way to go huh?

#13 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -
@cannonballBAM Wow, that is surprising! Hmm...well steam sales abound so might have to nab the PC version if it goes on sale sometime
#14 Posted by Ravelle (1251 posts) -

Also played the PS3 Demo had noticed the videoclips had a pretty low bit rate and the in-game cutscenes suffered from bad framerates. The gameplay itself was fine though.

#15 Posted by Fire_Of_The_Wind (170 posts) -

A friend of mine got his copy early and I've played it for about an hour + played the demo more than a few times. First the positives, the game looks great, the limbo angle gives them an excuse to do some crazy stuff with the level design, the acting and motion capture in cutscenes is well done, although the dialogue and writing is cringe worthy.

The negatives, the gameplay is a huge step back from previous games, it is too shallow and too easy to get SSS ratings, all you have to do is dodge enemy attacks and you can spam the same move over and over again and your rating will keep going up, it does not force you to use creativity to get good ratings, it is also slow. Earlier games never forced you to using one style or weapon to defeat certain enemies, different enemies had different weaknesses but they weren't invulnerable to other weapons, in this one it you're forced to use hell or angel weapons against certain enemies similar to how Heavenly Sword forced you to use different stances to defeat certain enemies.

I can see how people who didn't play previous games in this genre can enjoy this game, but Ninja Gaiden 1&2, Bayonetta and the previous DMCs are head and shoulders above this game. There's a reason this genre is called character action, and the character in DmC is the least memorable and likeable of the bunch. Personally I preferred the cheesy-fun Dante over this edgy middle finger Dante.

#16 Posted by ImmortalSaiyan (4676 posts) -

Just played up to and including mission 6. I enjoy it.

#17 Edited by GunstarRed (5125 posts) -

OK, so I've finished the game and have a bunch of stuff to say about it. The levels are very creative, the characters and dialogue are fine and the combat system really comes into its own in the later levels when you have all of the weapons unlocked. There is a staggering amount of combat options and despite the game being pretty easy even on the hardest mode unlocked at the start, Son of Sparda mode is ready to beat you into a bloody pulp from mission one, requiring you to use the spinning blades that keep lesser enemies at bay. People that want all the difficulties unlocked from the get go would have a ridiculously tough time without upgrades/weapons acquired on easier difficulties.

The levels are stunning to look at on a couple of occasions especially one in a club and another at a TV station, they do some really clever stuff with both of them, especially the TV station. There's also a fair amount of creative secret missions that have certain requirements to be met and a bunch of platforming races against the clock. The hardest of these is pretty ridiculous.

The bosses are really weak. All of them suffer from simplistic patterns, on Nephilim difficulty at least. They're OK, but I would have like to have seen more or more interesting showdowns like the one at the end of the game. ( even if it was insanely easy)

It's a good game, I don't think it really sets any standards in the genre, but it is a good game of this type, I think if the hardcore DMC players can get past their childish problems they would have a lot of fun and probably be challenged just as much as they have with previous entries in the series. It has heart, something that couldn't have been said about DMC4.

#18 Posted by GunstarRed (5125 posts) -

@Fire_Of_The_Wind said:

The negatives, the gameplay is a huge step back from previous games, it is too shallow and too easy to get SSS ratings, all you have to do is dodge enemy attacks and you can spam the same move over and over again and your rating will keep going up, it does not force you to use creativity to get good ratings, it is

This is wrong, if you continue to spam the same moves without mixing it up the white filling up the letters just bobs up and down until you start using different moves. It's easy to get an S, but getting into the SS and SSS requires you to be a little more creative.

#19 Posted by Blimble (302 posts) -

@GunstarRed: From playing the demo and from the quick look you rarely have to change it up and as long as you can dodge enemies which was pretty easy. And I haven't played the higher difficulties (weren't in the demo) but seeing as you can barely take a couple of hits in the it means you would always get SSS as if you take hits you are dead anyway, it doesn't go down any other way so it basically becomes pointless when in the old games it would still be a factor

#20 Edited by GunstarRed (5125 posts) -

@Blimble: The demo was good at showing off how to look cool with the combat, but certain enemies can be quite tricky and most are always on the offensive, but your moves interrupt most enemies out of their attacks, so getting hits in is not a problem, spamming WILL NOT get you an instant SSS rank. I've put over 20 hours into the game, I think I would know.

#21 Posted by Blimble (302 posts) -

@GunstarRed said:

it was very easy to get up there and to maintain it as the score doesn't drop unless you get hit so as long as you use a tiny bit of variation you can get it up there unless they changed a lot of stuff from the demo. Maybe you just liked using more combos so didsn't notice that the system is easily tricked. It also seemed to have some linked to damage as well so using heavy attacks was an easy way to quickly get up the ranks. You also didn't deny that harder difficulty thing so I assume I am somewhat accurate

#22 Posted by JJOR64 (18956 posts) -

Really want this game now, but I'm going to wait for the PC version. HURRY UP DAMMIT!

#23 Edited by GunstarRed (5125 posts) -

@Blimble: I spammed attacks, the spinning blades are really good for keeping large groups locked down, but your score never rises beyond a certain point, I'm all for being cheap and exploiting systems, I just didn't find it as easy as you seem to think it is. I'm good at these types of game, that sounds big headed, but I know how these games work and getting the SSS rank requires a lot more effort. It's nothing to do with heavy attacks they max out just like any other, the stinger also. There are a LOT of enemies that shoot shit from far away in the game requiring you to move about a lot and spamming will ALWAYS get you damaged even on easier difficulties.

#24 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

That 1 hit mode looks crazy, seems to be a lot of replay value in it. Love games that let you go through on harder dificultys with all your skills and weaposn.

#25 Posted by Blimble (302 posts) -

@GunstarRed: I never had any problem as long as I occasionally changed it up. maybe it is different in the full game but the quick look didn't show that. It was pretty easy to dodge, interrupt your enemies attack or just grapple one which interrupts ans makes them unable to attack. i think this is more that you just played around with the different combos when you don't have got for a SSS.

#26 Edited by spankingaddict (2661 posts) -

I'm about to play it , will come back and say what I think .

Edit. Starting Chapter 3 , now . So far my expectations are met . AMAZING . I just really hope I don't get tired of the combat anytime soon . Switching between this and XCOM is going to be a treat !

#27 Edited by xSeanZx (188 posts) -

So I have something to say about my feelings so far about this game after playing through chapter 2, especially the acting.. (Spoilers)

I know Brad mentioned this in the review but god damn I am pretty impressed by the acting early on..... I just went through the part where Dante gets his memories back and gains his new weapons... and wow! The exchanges between Dante and Vergil i feel had a lot of emotion. And discovering the memories one by one was just fucking awesome.

I am already way more invested in this story than I was any previous DmC, and I am wondering if anyone feels the same. I am super shocked right now.

#28 Posted by StarvingGamer (8156 posts) -
@xSeanZx

So I have something to say about my feelings so far about this game after playing through chapter 2, especially the acting.. (Spoilers)

I know Brad mentioned this in the review but god damn I am pretty impressed by the acting early on..... I just went through the part where Dante gets his memories back and gains his new weapons... and wow! The exchanges between Dante and Vergil i feel had a lot of emotion. And discovering the memories one by one was just fucking awesome.

I am already way more invested in this story than I was any previous DmC, and I am wondering if anyone feels the same. I am super shocked right now.

I take it you haven't played any previous Ninja Theory games? The acting has always been what makes their games shine.

Back OT: I'm playing through on normal difficulty despite being a huge DMC-head, mostly because there hasn't been a "this-sort-of-game" in a long ass time and I need to get my thumbs back under control. I can already feel the hooks getting in me though. Just like Bayonetta, I'm going to need to play through this game multiple times. I'm still ending fights with only an S rank on average, and that's unacceptable.
#29 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

That 1 hit mode looks crazy, seems to be a lot of replay value in it. Love games that let you go through on harder dificultys with all your skills and weaposn.

Yeah the Heaven or Hell and Hell or Hell modes are interesting. I forget which one is which but the one mode all enemies die in one hit and so do you and the other the enemies take regular damage but you die in one hit.

#30 Posted by OneManX (1686 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

I love this... I really hope that this .gif never dies.

As for my thoughts, from what I've seen it actually looks cool, and I love 1 and 3... and I hated 2 nd 4, I thought Nero was just lazy. So NT gets points on making some different than just another crazy stylish game in the vein in the old DMC games, because games like Vanquish and Bayonetta just took that mantle.

#31 Posted by spankingaddict (2661 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

LOL ! I want more of this weekly about what's going on at GB :D

#32 Edited by wemibelec90 (1631 posts) -

I want to say a few things and don't know where else to say them. Just need to get them off my chest after reading countless comments and forum posts full of vitriol for this game.

Most of the complaints seem to be about the combat being not as complex as DMC3, with easier timings for things and getting SSS ranks on fights being much simpler. I don't really see why this is a bad thing. Ninja Theory went a different way with the combat, making it flashier (in a way I think fits with the DMC style) and less dependent on timing and more about being creative with mixing things up. A better point is that this is the first (of many?) game in the rebooted franchise. DMC1 was quite simple and it wasn't until the third game that things got nice and deep. Who's to say that won't happen here as well?

I understand the concerns for the story and the dialogue. Apparently, Ninja Theory talked it up big time and that has some gamers peeved (I didn't follow this game at all so I know nothing of this). Still, is this the first time a game has been talked up and then not followed through (*cough* Peter Molyneux *cough, cough*)? Sure, it isn't Shakespeare quality writing, but a game doesn't have to be about story. My favorite character-action game, Ninja Gaiden, has a stupid and nonsensical story that I groan at each time I replay the game. At least DmC has some fun with its character and story. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it isn't the end of the world.

As Jeff and the others have said, this is a new direction for the Devil May Cry franchise. Those people who worked on the original game are doing other things. There is no way that a game would be the same as one those guys made because every development team is different. It kinda sucks that we don't get another (potentially) great "real" Devil May Cry game, but this game was never going to be that. We knew that years ago when this was announced. This new reimagining is at least worth a chance. Maybe Ninja Theory will take those things hated about the combat to heart and make a stellar sequel.

These opinions are coming from someone who hasn't played the game yet (waiting on the PC version) but is looking forward to the game. I am currently playing Devil May Cry 3 and can see why fans are very reverent for that game. The intricacies of the combat rival a fighting game's complexity. It's pretty clear that the new game won't be as deep. Still, I can't wait to see how DmC turns out.

Again, sorry for a bit of a rant here. I just wanted to post these thoughts somewhere so they would stop floating around inside my head.

Online
#33 Posted by pompouspizza (291 posts) -

I have put 20 hours in to the game so far, I think it's the best in the series, I have never had more fun with a character action game.

#34 Posted by KingBroly (1645 posts) -

I think this is a good game so far through 10 Chapters, but I still have a few gripes about it. It really is too easy. If Nephilim is supposed to be hard (Which it's not, you can literally just spam your way through it most of the time) I'd love to see how "hard" Dante Must Die mode is. I'm not really mad about the lack of combat complexity because there are some nice visual cues to make it easier to time things, but I feel like I'm a God from the beginning, and that's lowered the enjoyment factor a bit.

I think the Combat's the best part about the game so far because I think the story content is garbage and is awkward at places. It's definitely Ninja Theory's best game, but Enslaved was terrible and played itself in parts while Heavenly Sword was 'eh, that was a good 4-hour rental.' At least during gameplay, the framerate is very steady at 30fps, while cutscenes jump from 15-60 on PS3. And that's a big gripe too. Not being at 60fps, IMO, does lower the bar for the series in a poor way. Games like this do need that smoothness for control purposes. I also don't like that the game frequently takes control away from me while playing. It's rather jarring.

I'm enjoying it so far, but it's a far cry from the best character action games out there. It's probably a 7-8 out of 10 for me unless something dramatic happens.

#35 Posted by GunstarRed (5125 posts) -

@KingBroly: Nephilim isn't really hard, but the jump in difficulty in Son of Sparda mode is huge, they put you in tiny spaces with about 5 or 6 chainsaw dudes, blue/red enemies, tons of weaker enemies and the sawblade-ball dudes, and that is only in the second level. I really do think people should finish the game and start that mode before complaining about the difficulty. (something I'm guilty of too.) And to anyone that thinks they could just jump into that mode without all the weapons/upgrades is insane. I'm curious to see how hard DMD mode is, because SoS mode is pretty tough, they mix up enemy types enough that spamming isn't a viable option at all.

#36 Posted by falserelic (5412 posts) -

I finished the game on Nephilim the game was fun, but it was easy.

Things that I liked about DmC

1. Using all my weapons at anytime.

2. Exploring and finding hidden areas.

3. Quick and easy to learn combat system.

4. Stylish shape-shifting level design.

5. Fun boss battles (except for mundas that fight was disappointing)

Things that I don't like about DmC

1. Lack of enemy variety.

2. Story was abit cliche.

3. Some corny dialogue.

4. Wish the game was abit longer, and had alittle more weapons.

Overall that's my opinion for DmC. Its not going to appeal to alot of the original DMC fans, but I'm sure the game will attract new fans.

#37 Posted by Sanious (793 posts) -

@GunstarRed: I am only playing on hard right now and I am not having the toughest time but the different types/combination of enemies had me imagine the nightmare that could be harder difficulties. Glad to hear that it is true although I'd imagine I will be frustrated too.

#38 Edited by Yummylee (21546 posts) -

Put like 4 hours in so far and I think it's pretty awesome. A lot of different moves and weapons to all string together some flashy combos and the like. Camera can occasionally be a little tricky to work with, though, especially during some of the enclosed corridor environments. Platforming is also a little finicky at times, but it's otherwise surprisingly enjoyable, like when you've got more open environments like the pop factory warehouse and there's hook points all over the place.

Story and the writing is mostly fine, passable at worst. There were admittedly some moments that gotta smile outta me, and of course the acting is miles beyond anything from the previous games.

Also, those secret missions continue to be insane! Like this one where you gotta kill 7 enemies before the time runs out, but they'll only take damage if they're within these circles in the environment. Tried like 8 times and just couldn't do it... clearly gotta save that one for when I'm more upgraded.

#39 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

@Yummylee: Yeah just finished that level and managed to finally finish that mission after a few tries. The problem with that one is the damn chainsaw guys. You really have to just get lucky with the circle placement. Managed to finally get it. I just tried to stay focused and stay in the air comboing dudes as long as freaking possible.

#40 Edited by MentalDisruption (1622 posts) -

Just played about 4 hours and I'm enjoying it so far. From what I've seen so far the game looks great and has a cool style overall. The gameplay is really enjoyable as well. The platforming moments aren't anything that really knock me out of my chair, but the environment twisting, exploding, and floating everywhere makes these sections fairly interesting. I've never played a DMC game before and haven't really been into this style of game before so I can't speak much about the combat in comparison to other games of this genre. I'm having fun with the combat though. The combos don't feel hard to pull off, but at the same time they feel satisfying to chain together. Surprisingly enough I am liking Dante's cheesy style as well. Lots of one liners, but they make me smile or chuckle most of the time.

Edit: Just beat the second major boss. Have to say that is probably one of the coolest looking bosses I've fought in awhile. I really like what they're doing in these boss fights so far. The demon taunting or getting straight up pissed at you just makes the fight all the better.

#41 Posted by cannonballBAM (602 posts) -

Just finished my play through on Nephilim and I really enjoyed it.

I am gonna compile some information and flesh out the DmC overview.

#42 Posted by thekingoftoilets (191 posts) -

I just finished beating the game, and I had a blast with it. The character interaction was way better than I was expecting, the combat was fast and fluid, the environments were visually impressive, and I'm content to replay the game again and again. The only downsides I have are sometimes the lock on would screw me over, but that didn't happen too often, and I found this glitch where I was comboing an enemy into the air really high, and I somehow got stuck in the air. I got down eventually, but it was weird. I tried to emulate it on purpose, and it happened again XD.

I had a blast with it, and I hope those who are tossing this game to the wayside at least give it a chance, because they might have more fun with it than they think.

#43 Posted by TheStandardToaster (127 posts) -

Good to hear after all of the hate towards this game

#44 Posted by xyzygy (9949 posts) -

Played it at a friend's earlier today, and was kind of surprised with how bad the framerate is. It's a really choppy game, especially when things are getting crazy.

I'm not talking about the whole 60 vs 30 fps thing here, i'm talking about straight up really chopping, like 20 fps or maybe even lower. This was on a PS3 Slim.

Usually I don't let that stuff bother me but it was extremely noticeable to the point where I was getting a little distracted during fights :(

#45 Posted by Eldave0 (29 posts) -

I was planning on picking it up after a price drop but, after playing the demo, I rushed out and bought it that day. Really enjoying it so far. Solid combat, nice visuals and the story seems interesting. Hopefully it keeps me busy until Rayman Legends, Tomb Raider and MH3 release in March.

#46 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

So first real major criticism about the game. Lack of targeting really hurts the combat later on. Some of the later enemies are predictable enough on their own but in a crowd taking out priority targets starts to be a real chore.

#47 Posted by punisherkaos (273 posts) -
@xyzygy Been playing it on my 360 and have had zero frame rate issues. And I'm usually very picky about frame rate issues. I did have the game installed tho
#48 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

@xyzygy said:

Played it at a friend's earlier today, and was kind of surprised with how bad the framerate is. It's a really choppy game, especially when things are getting crazy.

I'm not talking about the whole 60 vs 30 fps thing here, i'm talking about straight up really chopping, like 20 fps or maybe even lower. This was on a PS3 Slim.

Usually I don't let that stuff bother me but it was extremely noticeable to the point where I was getting a little distracted during fights :(

Yeah I dunno man I'm playing on one of the first PS Slim models they released and I haven't seen any issues with frame rate. I can usually spot frame drops too. I do get stuttering audio upon loading a new area for a few seconds but frames are stable.

#49 Posted by Vanek (382 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

So first real major criticism about the game. Lack of targeting really hurts the combat later on. Some of the later enemies are predictable enough on their own but in a crowd taking out priority targets starts to be a real chore.

I'm near the end of the game and I've started having issues with the targeting. It's a bit annoying and has caused me to get hit a few times. I would have liked an option between using the auto targeting and a manual system.

@punisherkaos said:

@xyzygy Been playing it on my 360 and have had zero frame rate issues. And I'm usually very picky about frame rate issues. I did have the game installed tho

I'm installed on the Xbox 360 as well, but I have noticed a very slight drop on two occasions. It was only a small drop and only for a second but since the game is so consistent otherwise I noticed it when it did happen. I've nearly finished my first play through and while I really like it overall a few things bug me a little:

1. The camera isn't always great and has actually locked up a few times (just the camera, not the game) forcing a reload.

2. The stages are a bit short, the platforming isn't great and it seems like I just start getting into the groove of combat by the time everyone is dead.

3. I wish they had used all four shoulder buttons as weapon modifiers instead of wasting two of them on dodging because I find hitting the D-Pad unpleasant during combat.

#50 Posted by Demoskinos (14777 posts) -

@Vanek: Indeed. I'm wondering if patching in a targeting option would be beyond a simple patch? I mean for gods sake there are two dodge buttons its not like they couldn't map one of them to a target button. I'm not entirely too worried right now I'm just getting through the game right now. When I go to play serious and SSS every mission then I'll have to start trying to develop methods to dispatch crowds easily but I'll worry about that later. I'm sure its manageable.

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