(Dota 2= Dota 1) < Blizzard Dota

#1 Posted by gamefreak9 (2359 posts) -

For the past couple of hours i have been streaming games of Dota 2 on teamliquid... and i have not discerned a single difference so far... not even any particularly different hero... mechanics are all the same they didn't even try to fix some of the heroes that were imbalanced in the end game... same items...

Blizzard Dota... values support heroes like healers, introduced new heroes with new classes(siege), new last kill mechanics which avoids friction... got rid of POINTLESS armor rating, new Creep Mechanics that reinforce your army...

I mean why in the heck would someone be more excisted about Dota 2 than Bizzard dota? All i see in Dota 2 valve trying to milk something that frog made like 10 years ago... whilst blizzard dota is moving the genre foward...

#2 Posted by Jack268 (3387 posts) -

Is Blizzard DotA even in beta yet? The point of DotA 2 at the moment isn't to balance the game, it's to create the core game and import the old heroes. Of course, when the core is in place there will be time for refinements. The same applies to building any game. You don't have to balance everything out until the game is finished. DotA 2 will be supported by patches for years after it's release, there is plenty of time to change it.

#3 Posted by StarvingGamer (8246 posts) -

I'm mostly making this up, but if I had to guess I'd say that the core DotA players are likely to be extremely resistant to any changes that might seem like a "dumbing down" of their beloved game. They have learned to thrive in an ecosystem of making optimal choices within a sea of obtuse mechanics. This is clear from they way they immediately descend upon inexperienced players and, rather than help guide them, berate and badger them for their lack of encyclopedic knowledge.

Some people are satisfied with strategic depth and a generous skill-curve. Others feel that true depth can't be achieved until the skill-ceiling becomes impossibly high. Blizzard DotA is going to be for the former and, most likely, significantly more casually popular.

#4 Posted by gamefreak9 (2359 posts) -

@Jack268 said:

Is Blizzard DotA even in beta yet? The point of DotA 2 at the moment isn't to balance the game, it's to create the core game and import the old heroes. Of course, when the core is in place there will be time for refinements. The same applies to building any game. You don't have to balance everything out until the game is finished. DotA 2 will be supported by patches for years after it's release, there is plenty of time to change it.

Um Beta is like one stage before release... i can't imagine it will change much... so far its just skins... @StarvingGamer said:

I'm mostly making this up, but if I had to guess I'd say that the core DotA players are likely to be extremely resistant to any changes that might seem like a "dumbing down" of their beloved game. They have learned to thrive in an ecosystem of making optimal choices within a sea of obtuse mechanics. This is clear from they way they immediately descend upon inexperienced players and, rather than help guide them, berate and badger them for their lack of encyclopedic knowledge.

Some people are satisfied with strategic depth and a generous skill-curve. Others feel that true depth can't be achieved until the skill-ceiling becomes impossibly high. Blizzard DotA is going to be for the former and, most likely, significantly more casually popular.

Dumbing down is a ridiculous argument... its called "removing unnecessary bs", i mean whats the point of having armor instead of health??? isn't armor just an extra calculation and has no core difference? Strategic depth will evolve MUCH more now that instead of having kills, you have assists... it goes away from people trying to work alone to people actually being motivated to cooperate.

I agree that there will be elitists who won't adapt to change and be whiny about Blizz Dota but there's always people who are too stuck in their ways to adapt.

#5 Posted by Jack268 (3387 posts) -
@gamefreak9 said:

@Jack268 said:

Is Blizzard DotA even in beta yet? The point of DotA 2 at the moment isn't to balance the game, it's to create the core game and import the old heroes. Of course, when the core is in place there will be time for refinements. The same applies to building any game. You don't have to balance everything out until the game is finished. DotA 2 will be supported by patches for years after it's release, there is plenty of time to change it.

Um Beta is like one stage before release... i can't imagine it will change much... so far its just skins... 

 
Have you ever heard of patches? The original DotA has been iterated on for what, 7 years? The game can change even after the full release.
#6 Posted by emergency (1193 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

I mean why in the heck would someone be more excisted about Dota 2 than Bizzard dota?

because valve don't make bad products. (neither do blizzard).

#7 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4516 posts) -

@emergency said:

@gamefreak9 said:

I mean why in the heck would someone be more excisted about Dota 2 than Bizzard dota?

because valve don't make bad products. (neither do blizzard).

agreed. Plus, DOTA2 is a full featured game that will continue to get even more features, knowing Valve, as time goes on. B-Dota will definitely have it's fair share of features too, but when compared to DOTA2, it would appear to be a bit more shallow. Not saying that's a bad thing in any way, that's just the way it is.

#8 Posted by StarvingGamer (8246 posts) -

@gamefreak9: I'm not disagreeing with you, but I imagine that's how a lot of people might see it. It's hard to think of a group of gamers more entrenched in their minutia than the DotA community.

#9 Edited by artgarcrunkle (970 posts) -

@gamefreak9: Pointless armor rating? Are you upset you can't build straight damage in a MOBA and be successful? If DotA 2 does what it's supposed to do and does it well it's going to be a great competitive multiplayer game. At high levels of play with organized teams DotA was a deep and fairly balanced game. DotA 2 looks nicer, more fluid and way less janky than WC3 DotA. Removing all that "Unnecessary BS" undermines core game mechanics that make those games what they are.

Every game isn't for everyone, games are dumb pointless fun so it's pretty OK to not want to play a stressful competitive multiplayer game. But Valve seems to be doing a good job making a game for the giant player base they pretty much already have.

#10 Posted by Nadril (529 posts) -

Dota 2 is exactly what people want. I'm fine with Blizzard Dota but it's just intended to be a silly casual game to play. Dota 2 is intended to be a large, competitive game and the majority of work going into it is on the backend of things. To valve it is more important to have proper spectator functions and eventually proper community support and functions that will allow nice players to be rewarded and dicks to get punished. 
 
 
And to be completely honest with you I don't want the mechanics of dota to change. LoL is fucking boring because they removed these "unnecessary" mechanics that are actually a lot more important than some players realize. Players don't realize how important denies are (I.E they are not "just another thing to do") and how important the core concepts of str/int/agi are.  
 

Dumbing down is a ridiculous argument... its called "removing unnecessary bs", i mean whats the point of having armor instead of health??? isn't armor just an extra calculation and has no core difference? Strategic depth will evolve MUCH more now that instead of having kills, you have assists... it goes away from people trying to work alone to people actually being motivated to cooperate.


Do you really not understand the difference between armor and health? A high armor value (but low health) means that you can take auto attacks all day long because you mitigate a lot of physical damage. However it makes you very open to nuke damage due to your low health pool. The opposite is true as well. If you just stack health, but have no armor, than a carry won't really care about needing a few extra hits to kill you. 
 
 
Also you mention the Kills/assists... actually in Dota 2 right now if the damage is split fairly evenly among players than all players are just given an assist and split the gold.  Plus there aren't actually persistant stats other than win/loss right now... so kills don't really matter. 
#11 Posted by Hunkulese (2725 posts) -

If you're looking for a casual game then sure Blizzard DOTA is probably better than DOTA 2.

#12 Posted by gamefreak9 (2359 posts) -

@artgarcrunkle said:

Pointless armor rating? Are you upset you can't build straight damage in a MOBA and be successful? If DotA 2 does what it's supposed to do and does it well it's going to be a great competitive multiplayer game. At high levels of play with organized teams DotA was a deep and fairly balanced game. DotA 2 looks nicer, more fluid and way less janky than WC3 DotA.

Every game isn't for everyone, games are dumb pointless fun so it's pretty OK to not want to play a stressful competitive multiplayer game. But Valve seems to be doing a good job making a game for the giant player base they pretty much already have.

just putting this out there... I participated in Dota competitions in the old days... i am no noob... Stress in dota? lol Try a real competitive game... how about SC2...

Nicer... more fluid... and less janky... interesting...its the SAME... it just looks DIFFERENT... its not any different.

ARMOR IS POINTLESS! There is no gameplay influence armor can do that attack speed, damage, and health adjustments cannot do, if you can't see that... then its not my fault you can't figure it out. additionally, Armor = take more hits, so why not just increase health? With armor rating your punishing heroes that attack faster... WHICH makes people more likely to focus on attack damage instead of speed...

Dota received more updates than lol AND HON do, and only like two people were working on it.

#13 Posted by Nephrahim (1147 posts) -

Are Dota games really seen as incredibly compex?

There are interesting mechanics in them, to be sure. But most of the time what holds players back is more the minutia of things like denies then not understanding the heroes.

#14 Posted by SonofSeth (89 posts) -

I wouldn't go into which game will be better, I only played LoL and was bored by lvl 11. What I can say is that on paper, from all the things i read about upcoming DOTAs, BDota looks much more fun TO ME, I like gameplay skill level and don't really enjoy theorycrafting skill level.

I will try both though.

#15 Posted by gamefreak9 (2359 posts) -

@SamDrugbringer said:

Are Dota games really seen as incredibly compex?

There are interesting mechanics in them, to be sure. But most of the time what holds players back is more the minutia of things like denies then not understanding the heroes.

totally agree, at least with Blizzard Dota it can go away from that TEDIOUS denying and more towards teamwork...

#16 Posted by artgarcrunkle (970 posts) -

@gamefreak9: I don't like micro-management RTS games but you're right SC2 is difficult and competitive, I wasted thousands of hours playing competitive PC FPS games and think those are the pinnacle of competitive online games so, yeah, opinions and all that.

Personally I think armor should be in the game because even though it is effectively health it requires different items to counter. The ability to stack armor AND health forces players on the other team to invest more money in order to kill you. Honestly I haven't kept up on DotA in about a year and play a lot of LoL which I think is more flawed than DotA, so I might be inclined to agree with you if desolator is still the only item that effectively counters high armor. Tankyness is pretty much anti-fun, but the community doesn't really want fun I don't think.

#17 Posted by valrog (3671 posts) -

I'm not too fond of Blizzard Dota because I don't like when different universes collide. So there's that.

#18 Edited by gamefreak9 (2359 posts) -

@artgarcrunkle:

The example you just gave with Desolator can still exist, how about a debuff that increases damage(physical in this case) taken by XXX. Same thing see?

Exactly why i don't like Dota, and think that Blizzard Dota will be great... it bores me to death to be anything other than a DPS class, and when in a high level game... DPS AND ranged since denying and last hitting becomes painful... I think these mechanics blizzard is introducing will make more classes fun... I mean i can imagine having fun with healing classes now...

@valrog said:

I'm not too fond of Blizzard Dota because I don't like when different universes collide. So there's that.

I bet you tell me ANY movie or ANY video game i can find you the collision of universes :P. A chair is the collision of nature and humanity...

What i am asking for here is.... be more specific....

#19 Posted by Kasswara (178 posts) -

They aren't trying to milk it, they're trying to recreate it in the Source engine because the W3 engine is ancient.

#20 Posted by Levio (1784 posts) -

Let me clear this up for you:

DotA 2 is classic DotA but with better graphics, dedicated servers, stat tracking, probably microtransactions and TF2 tie-ins (cosmetic stuff only), and a number of new game modes. Really, only the different game modes will affect gameplay.

Meanwhile, Blizzard DotA will be an entirely different game using the SC2 engine. It plans to be much more casual, which means both easier gameplay but probably much fewer modes and heroes, and likely a much smaller fanbase.

Heroes of Newerth is also identical to DotA classic but with better graphics, a few new heros, and a microtransaction shop (cosmetics only). League of Legends is the only true DotA "sequel"; it features a completely revamped stat system, off-map customization/strategy-stuff, and a cosmetic store.

#21 Posted by valrog (3671 posts) -

@gamefreak9: For example the game will have Arthas (A Warcraft character), Witch Doctor (A Diablo character) and some other Starcraft characters (I don't know their names). I don't even...

#22 Posted by gamefreak9 (2359 posts) -

@valrog:

Meh... its like a non-story game... in this case i think its a + to have things that don't match...

#23 Posted by raiz265 (2239 posts) -

what the fuck is this thread?

#24 Posted by phrosnite (3518 posts) -

Cool story bro.

#25 Posted by Jace (1094 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

For the past couple of hours i have been streaming games of Dota 2 on teamliquid... and i have not discerned a single difference so far... not even any particularly different hero... mechanics are all the same they didn't even try to fix some of the heroes that were imbalanced in the end game... same items...

Blizzard Dota... values support heroes like healers, introduced new heroes with new classes(siege), new last kill mechanics which avoids friction... got rid of POINTLESS armor rating, new Creep Mechanics that reinforce your army...

I mean why in the heck would someone be more excisted about Dota 2 than Bizzard dota? All i see in Dota 2 valve trying to milk something that frog made like 10 years ago... whilst blizzard dota is moving the genre foward...

"Guys, I've been playing the BETA for a while, and I think this other full game is going to be better than the beta is now."

Cool Story.

#26 Posted by gamefreak9 (2359 posts) -

@Jace said:

@gamefreak9 said:

For the past couple of hours i have been streaming games of Dota 2 on teamliquid... and i have not discerned a single difference so far... not even any particularly different hero... mechanics are all the same they didn't even try to fix some of the heroes that were imbalanced in the end game... same items...

Blizzard Dota... values support heroes like healers, introduced new heroes with new classes(siege), new last kill mechanics which avoids friction... got rid of POINTLESS armor rating, new Creep Mechanics that reinforce your army...

I mean why in the heck would someone be more excisted about Dota 2 than Bizzard dota? All i see in Dota 2 valve trying to milk something that frog made like 10 years ago... whilst blizzard dota is moving the genre foward...

"Guys, I've been playing the BETA for a while, and I think this other full game is going to be better than the beta is now."

Cool Story.

yes because BETA's are not representative of what comes next in any shape or form. 24 cents short of a quarter.

#27 Posted by Neferon (262 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

@SamDrugbringer said:

Are Dota games really seen as incredibly compex?

There are interesting mechanics in them, to be sure. But most of the time what holds players back is more the minutia of things like denies then not understanding the heroes.

totally agree, at least with Blizzard Dota it can go away from that TEDIOUS denying and more towards teamwork...

+1 , Denying was a bit of a mistake if you ask me.

About the complexity, I think MOBAs (or DOTAs) are complex, but not in the basic rules. It's more things like positioning and the metagame that are complex than the heroes themselves. Maybe depth is a better word than complex in these cases though.

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