Dota 2 Noob Hate

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#1 Edited by granthinds (11 posts) -

Hey guys,

After hearing a lot of Dota on the Bombcast I thought I'd share my thoughts here.

I've been playing Dota for a couple of months now and in comparison to a lot of mates of mine, I'm an extreme noob. They've been playing for about 10 years from the original DoTA and fortunately I've learnt a significant amount from them. But what I don't get is the exorbitant amount of flame the community gives noobs.

Clearly I'm playing badly in a pub game because I'm new. I'm not trying to ruin your day, and I haven't intentionally given up an hour of my time to troll you. If you're not keen on playing against or with noobs then don't play pub games right? Is my logic flawed? I've taken to documenting my progress as a Dota noob in a series of videos where I go through the game playing each hero, often for the first time. It's remarkable how much hate I can get in a game or see the opposing team rag their own players for their shoddy plays. It's self-righteous. It's presumptuous in an environment where I can't ascertain the age, gender, skill or character of my team or opponents.

Valve have created a bunch of tools to help report and control this abuse as it's severity is largely exclusive to Dota.

But I think the solution is less of a tell-tale system and more of a transparency of player. The more transparent a player becomes online, the more behaved he becomes, to the extent that I believe if video is mandatory for every game, the less abusive people will be to that person.

Unless of course, that guy is an actual twerp. There's no helping them. What you think?

#2 Edited by Benny (1947 posts) -

@granthinds: It's a big time investment for every match compared to shooters which could be some of it.

#3 Posted by TobbRobb (4549 posts) -

Well first off, the severity and the abuse isnt limited to dota. I played League for 3 years, and some shit I've seen in that game is probably worse than people can imagine, fighting games can get pretty fucking bad as well. But that doesn't really matter that much.

As for WHY there is so much abuse in this particular genre. Consider this, you are locked in a game for at the very least 20-30min, the game is very dependant that every cog in the network does it's thing, or everything falls a part, which brings a certain desperation into play. Then consider that most of the internet is composed of twats and assholes, and you are in a game that require 10 players. 10 players is a LOT, you are almost guaranteed to find one fuckhead every game or two. And then lastly, the availability of communication. Even if Battlfield can hold 64 players, they are all too busy shooting to bitch at each other, even if they might want to. Since dota has such a methodical pace there is a lot of time you can spend on being a jackass, and that one guy WILL take the chance to do it. Basicall there are a lot of small factors that stack up to create the breeding ground for really toxic behaviour. And there really isn't much we can do about it without fairly drastic measures, like let's say your video idea. I'm not a fan of doing something like that AT ALL. But it's just about the amount of nazi that would be neccessary. :/

#4 Edited by granthinds (11 posts) -

@benny: @tobbrobb: Hmmm, your Battlefield example is actually really good. To be honest, there was a fair amount of abuse in StarCraft 2 as well. And yes, I understand there's a ton of time being wasted but hurling insults at those people who are struggling doens't create a culture where people WANT to improve. Each one teach one I say.

#5 Edited by Counterclockwork87 (570 posts) -

Big nerds often play DOTA and they can be big assholes to normal people just trying to have fun with the game. Every time one of them says something to you, just think about how much richer your life probably is because you haven't devoted the entirety of it to an online multiplayer game.

#6 Posted by Entus (253 posts) -

Also unlike in a shooter, games Dota 'snowballs' pretty hard. So it's quite common that a team loses just because one person gave up a few early kills, and those kills gave the enemy team too big of an advantage. While its not impossible to come back from a disadvantage in dota, you need good team coordination and a good understanding of the game, which is just about the last thing that a new player would have in dota. This is why I never play dota without a 5-man team.

#7 Posted by davidwitten22 (1708 posts) -

It doesn't matter if you're in the normal MMR bracket or the Very High MMR bracket, you're still going to get ragers and trolls and jerks in DotA games, just like you are in LoL or HoN or ScII or any other multiplayer game. It's definitely worse in games like DotA, but it doesn't mean that most other team online games aren't the same.

It does get slightly better once you get into higher MMR games (as the low tiers of DotA games are full of people claiming to be Very High smurfs and russians/brazilians), but don't expect queuing by yourself to ever really become enjoyable.

#8 Edited by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@granthinds: Think of it like this, whether intentional or not, your shitty play is actively ruining their game. It is not like a shooter where even if your team loses you can still take solace in your personal situation. So from their perspective you are knowingly ruining their game and wasting their time, and they feel their best response to that is unmitigated hostility. That's not an excuse for their actions, but it does help understand the logic behind it.

A little off topic but I never understood the reasoning of 'well what do you expect I'm bad at this game." If you are playing a game with other people, you should at least put in the minimal period of time to learn the game so that you can positively contribute to the team outcome. While dota may be complicated, there are a ton of different ways to learn, so I don't understand why people think it's fair for the to blindly pick a hero and ruin the experience for people who have put in the time to be able to contribute to the team.

#10 Posted by Akrid (1356 posts) -

I try and keep my cool, and I think I usually do, but I can't help but be bummed out when a singular person brings down the whole team. Truth is, not getting angry at bad people in Dota takes a zen-like composure that I wouldn't expect of anyone. Because Dota is an inherently frustrating game. It gives you a false sense of control of a given match, and then it just takes it away as soon as you see "double kill" pop up on your screen. Each match is like a pick up game of soccer with strangers, only to have one of your team mates kick it into your own goal like 6 times. But then in Dota, they don't even understand why that's a bad thing. And then it makes you play that losing game for another 30 minutes. If you're at all into the sport, it's infuriating.

And yet I keep playing.

#11 Edited by Harknett (126 posts) -

It's the reason that I ended up uninstalling Dota 2. The idea that I have less of a right to queue up because I'm unwilling to endlessly research the hero and item combinations is absurd. I can understand being infuriated if someone on your dedicated 5-man team isn't pulling their wait, but it's foolish to expect everyone in a pick-up game to do the same.

It's a shame because, from a business perspective, what Valve is doing with Dota 2 is absolutely fascinating. I just wish the community would mature beyond screaming out hashtags.

#12 Edited by granthinds (11 posts) -

@twigger89: I understand, but isn't that what matchmaking is for? You should be pooled with people of a similar skill set to you. You should assume then that the people you're playing at a similar skill level than you. As a beginner, when I play pubs, I expect to play with other noobs. Instead, I often play with delusional players full of self ideas of grandeur. Maybe they're incredible players being punished with low priority matchmaking?

#13 Edited by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@twigger89: I understand, but isn't that what matchmaking is for? You should be pooled with people of a similar skill set to you. You should assume then that the people you're playing at a similar skill level than you. As a beginner, when I play pubs, I expect to play with other noobs. Instead, I often play with delusional players full of self ideas of grandeur. Maybe they're incredible players being punished with low priority matchmaking?

That is a great point, and one I'd wish Valve would explain, or at least clarify. I am at the point now where me and my friends play mostly in high matchmaking and we still find people making incredibly simple and obvious mistakes. It's at the point where we are more annoyed with the matchmaking system itself than we are with the individual players. Blizzard seems to be very clear about what percentage of their player base fall into what ranked category, I think Valve should ape that system, as well that LoL's non ranked match making so that people we just want to learn or fuck around aren't playing with people who are in it to win it.

#14 Edited by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@twigger89: I understand, but isn't that what matchmaking is for? You should be pooled with people of a similar skill set to you. You should assume then that the people you're playing at a similar skill level than you. As a beginner, when I play pubs, I expect to play with other noobs. Instead, I often play with delusional players full of self ideas of grandeur. Maybe they're incredible players being punished with low priority matchmaking?

That is a great point, and one I'd wish Valve would explain, or at least clarify. I am at the point now where me and my friends play mostly in high matchmaking and we still find people making incredibly simple and obvious mistakes. It's at the point where we are more annoyed with the matchmaking system itself than we are with the individual players. Blizzard seems to be very clear about what percentage of their player base fall into what ranked category, I think Valve should ape that system, as well that LoL's non ranked match making so that people we just want to learn or fuck around aren't playing with people who are in it to win it.

#15 Edited by Cameron (595 posts) -

Think of it like this, whether intentional or not, your shitty play is actively ruining their game. It is not like a shooter where even if your team loses you can still take solace in your personal situation. So from their perspective you are knowingly ruining their game and wasting their time, and they feel their best response to that is unmitigated hostility. That's not an excuse for their actions, but it does help understand the logic behind it.

A little off topic but I never understood the reasoning of 'well what do you expect I'm bad at this game." If you are playing a game with other people, you should at least put in the minimal period of time to learn the game so that you can positively contribute to the team outcome. While dota may be complicated, there are a ton of different ways to learn, so I don't understand why people think it's fair for the to blindly pick a hero and ruin the experience for people who have put in the time to be able to contribute to the team.

What I don't understand is why people care so much about winning. Isn't the point of playing a game to have fun? If the game is designed in such a way that the losing team isn't having fun in some way, then either the game is poorly designed or the people playing it are taking it way to seriously. Why does it matter if you lose? It's not like you're getting paid for wins.

I also think it's just crazy that there is an expectation that players go outside of the game to learn how to play well. I just want to jump in and have fun and I'm generally unwilling to spend hours reading wikis and forums to learn how to play a game. I think MOBAs just aren't for me, but I also think it really hurts MOBAs that their communities are so hostile to unexperienced players. Even if DOTA was the best game in the world, I'm not going to play a game where people on my own team are screaming at me for something I didn't even know was a problem without explaining why what I'm doing is wrong. I imagine many people are in the same boat as me and I really hope developers figure out a way to force the community to be more friendly to new players. I suppose they could also try to create useful tutorials, but it is really difficult to learn anything beyond the very basic ideas of a game that way.

#16 Edited by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

I never understood that kind of hate either.
Also the whole "if you wanna learn how to play you should read up on it" No, no fuck you and your entire existence that's not how gaming works.
You learn by doing, that's the whole point so you if do run into someone who, in your big-ego brain, "not good" at the game try to prove you're good at it by teaching that person how to play.

What's that? You can't? Sorry to hear that Mr. Not-playing-in-any-important-tournaments, I guess you really aren't that good at the game either.

#17 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@cameron: I feel like I have been arguing this particular point on these forums for a while, it's like Ground Hogs day, dota version.

Dota is a game about teamwork, precision play, and strategic use of resources. The easiest parallel I can come up with is Rock Band. Playing Rock Band is fun when you are getting the notes right so that the music sounds good, the winning is just a byproduct of that. It's similar in dota. The fun is playing as a cohesive unit to overcome the enemy team, you winning is just a larger reflection of that, it's not why you have fun. When you or your team is playing poorly, the game makes it crystal clear how poorly you are doing (again similar to Rock Band). This is less of an issue in Rock Band because each song only lasts a few minutes, in Dota each game is around 40-60 minutes, so that frustration just builds over time. That frustration is magnified because generally the person doing poorly is being antagonistic about them doing poorly, coming up with stupid excuses ("oh sorry I can't hear anything I have people over") or trying to pass the buck ("I shouldn't have to call missing, I'm the carry") which just makes the situation worse.

I'm not saying the current system is amazing or that it can't be improved, but at this point most of us know the what we are getting into when we start up a MOBA game. Once you start that game, you are basically making an agreement to your teammates that you have a basic understanding of how the game works, can use basic communication, and are willing to listen when someone gives you good advice. If you are not ok with that minimal level of understanding just to play the game, then don't play it. Otherwise the only person you have to blame is yourself.

#18 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@granthinds: Think of it like this, whether intentional or not, your shitty play is actively ruining their game. It is not like a shooter where even if your team loses you can still take solace in your personal situation. So from their perspective you are knowingly ruining their game and wasting their time, and they feel their best response to that is unmitigated hostility. That's not an excuse for their actions, but it does help understand the logic behind it.

Think of it like this, being an asshole because you've put more time into dota than a noob is inexcusable and is just as ruinous to the match for the other people that you are playing with as one player's lack of skill might be.

If you're matching into a pub game - in any game - your time is no more valuable than anyone else's, you're probably not an authority on the game, and you should definitely just shut up and play.

#19 Posted by RecSpec (3752 posts) -

You shouldn't just jump into pub games if your new, that's what the bot games are for. And saying "I don't care about winning, I'm just having fun" doesn't really cut it in these kind of games. That's why it works so well, it relies on every person on the team pulling their weight. The best player on a team can't just be the hero and carry dead weight.

Both sides have to meet in the middle. Don't just say "Why don't these people chill out" without trying to understand what you are doing yourself.

#20 Edited by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@twigger89 said:

@granthinds: Think of it like this, whether intentional or not, your shitty play is actively ruining their game. It is not like a shooter where even if your team loses you can still take solace in your personal situation. So from their perspective you are knowingly ruining their game and wasting their time, and they feel their best response to that is unmitigated hostility. That's not an excuse for their actions, but it does help understand the logic behind it.

Think of it like this, being an asshole because you've put more time into dota than a noob is inexcusable and is just as ruinous to the match for the other people that you are playing with as one player's lack of skill might be.

If you're matching into a pub game - in any game - your time is no more valuable than anyone else's, you're probably not an authority on the game, and you should definitely just shut up and play.

It seems like you are assuming that the logic I was stating, the logic that was asked for, was logic I personally believe in. This is definitely not the case. I have made many attempts to teach people how to play dota, including on this very forum. Please don't assume I'm an asshole just because I can understand an asshole.

#21 Posted by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@cameron: If the match is extremely uneven the losing team will just get destroyed due to the enemy teams higher level and better items. The amount of fun to be had is somewhere between getting spawn camped in an FPS and getting perfected over and over again in a fighting game for 40 minutes.

@zeforgotten: Even guides that only cover the basics are pretty long so if someone's completely clueless it's not something you can just quickly type up in the chat. Especially if they've already picked a hero that's hopeless for someone entirely new. Even if you don't want to read anything about Dota ranked isn't the place to learn it

#22 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@zeforgotten: Even guides that only cover the basics are pretty long so if someone's completely clueless it's not something you can just quickly type up in the chat. Especially if they've already picked a hero that's hopeless for someone entirely new. Even if you don't want to read anything about Dota ranked isn't the place to learn it

Nobody is talking specifically about ranked, well except you.
But let's combine all of that and just realize that it still doesn't give you the right to act like a total cunt towards another player(Not "you" specifically, just in general)
So hey, at least there's a "report this user for being a total asshat" feature in the game which needs to be used more towards people who just act like a dick because he/she thinks the whole world revolves around him/her.

#23 Edited by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@twigger89 said:

@granthinds: Think of it like this, whether intentional or not, your shitty play is actively ruining their game. It is not like a shooter where even if your team loses you can still take solace in your personal situation. So from their perspective you are knowingly ruining their game and wasting their time, and they feel their best response to that is unmitigated hostility. That's not an excuse for their actions, but it does help understand the logic behind it.

Think of it like this, being an asshole because you've put more time into dota than a noob is inexcusable and is just as ruinous to the match for the other people that you are playing with as one player's lack of skill might be.

If you're matching into a pub game - in any game - your time is no more valuable than anyone else's, you're probably not an authority on the game, and you should definitely just shut up and play.

It seems like you are assuming that the logic I was stating, the logic that was asked for, was logic I personally believe in. This is definitely not the case. I have made many attempts to teach people how to play dota, including on this very forum. Please don't assume I'm an asshole just because I can understand an asshole.

Nah, I understood that you were playing devil's advocate. I just don't think that getting frustrated with other players in a public match in a multiplayer game, no matter how solid the logic behind the frustration, justifies ruining the game for other players. Everyone is giving up their time to make the match happen, no-one likes to play poorly, no-one wants their team to lose, if things are going badly why heap more misery on your team by making them listen to/read you ranting at some random for the next twenty minutes?

#24 Edited by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@zeforgotten: I don't think a lot of people are acting like that in bot matches. I mean I haven't played a ton but still, I believe it's generally understood that it's for messing around. Do report those players, I'm just saying that if you know next to nothing about Dota there's no way you won't be a huge detriment to your team and it's likely you'll lose the game for them, even if the theoretical helpful teammates existed. Bot matches or playing with 4 friends are the only way you'll get people that don't care about that.

#25 Posted by Hungry (165 posts) -

@rebgav:

Because they feel it is cathartic and they are getting some sort of way to relieve the stress of losing by taking it out on their source of their issues. It's not right and pretty fucked up but they do it because it is some way they try and salvage their own wasted time. They don't care about their teammates, they are just some random person on the Internet that just wasted their time.

Now that being said, that sort of mentality ends up really hurting any legitimate sort of post-game discussion. I've played in plenty of pubs where, as we were being throned or as we were on the road to losing, I tried to examine where we went wrong and what we need to do or what we could do next game (even though I may never see these pubs again). Oftentimes, this ends up being misconstrued as the blame game by my pubs, which is unfortunate because I only want everyone to learn from our collective mistakes.

#26 Posted by TheHT (10786 posts) -

Also the whole "if you wanna learn how to play you should read up on it" No, no fuck you and your entire existence that's not how gaming works.

Remember when games had manuals?

#27 Edited by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@chibithor: No matter if it's ranked, or bot, nothing gives anyone the right to act like a stupid fucking cunt.
That would be like me logging into a game just to tell everyone how terrible they are because I'm clearly a better person than they will ever be. I'm a perfect human being compared to anyone.
I've got no right to do that, even if it was true.

@theht said:

@zeforgotten said:

Also the whole "if you wanna learn how to play you should read up on it" No, no fuck you and your entire existence that's not how gaming works.

Remember when games had manuals?

Oh you mean those books that I only opened up because they had story content in them as well?
Sure, what about them? after reading the story stuff or "about this character"-pages I fired up the game and learned to play it that way.

I'm gonna bet you $50 that nobody ever read a manual and went "Ok, so those are the controls, alright now I'm pro at this" and then just dominated the game the first few times they played it.

#28 Edited by churrific (470 posts) -

Just wondering. Is their separate matchmaking for solo queues? Matching a bunch of randoms together so they can do whatever they want seems like it could be a good way to take out the expectation of winning, which leads to frustration and the belittling of others.

#29 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@chibithor said:

@zeforgotten: Even guides that only cover the basics are pretty long so if someone's completely clueless it's not something you can just quickly type up in the chat. Especially if they've already picked a hero that's hopeless for someone entirely new. Even if you don't want to read anything about Dota ranked isn't the place to learn it

Nobody is talking specifically about ranked, well except you.

But let's combine all of that and just realize that it still doesn't give you the right to act like a total cunt towards another player(Not "you" specifically, just in general)

So hey, at least there's a "report this user for being a total asshat" feature in the game which needs to be used more towards people who just act like a dick because he/she thinks the whole world revolves around him/her.

There is a certain irony of you getting angry at people getting angry at people playing a video game.

#30 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -
#31 Posted by churrific (470 posts) -
#32 Edited by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@twigger89 said:

@zeforgotten said:

@chibithor said:

@zeforgotten: Even guides that only cover the basics are pretty long so if someone's completely clueless it's not something you can just quickly type up in the chat. Especially if they've already picked a hero that's hopeless for someone entirely new. Even if you don't want to read anything about Dota ranked isn't the place to learn it

Nobody is talking specifically about ranked, well except you.

But let's combine all of that and just realize that it still doesn't give you the right to act like a total cunt towards another player(Not "you" specifically, just in general)

So hey, at least there's a "report this user for being a total asshat" feature in the game which needs to be used more towards people who just act like a dick because he/she thinks the whole world revolves around him/her.

There is a certain irony of you getting angry at people getting angry at people playing a video game.

I'm not angry, but.. nice try?
If it quacks like a duck, and looks exactly like a duck, it's probably a duck.
So if someone acts like an asshat for no real reason, then yeah, you're an asshat.

Unless you can give me a very valid and thoughtful reason how acting like a total dick towards another person can be justified just because you lost(nothing) in a video game?

@churrific: sure, but it still happens for some dumb reason

#33 Edited by churrific (470 posts) -

@zeforgotten: Hmm. Maybe a better question is is there matchmaking specifically for training/fooling around in? Kind of like Injustice where they have an online training mode for 2 players. That seems like it would be the best solution for people who don't want to deal with everything that comes with an competitive environment.

#34 Posted by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@zeforgotten said:

@chibithor

: No matter if it's ranked, or bot,

nothing

gives anyone the right to act like a stupid fucking cunt.

That would be like me logging into a game just to tell everyone how terrible they are because I'm clearly a better person than they will ever be. I'm a perfect human being compared to anyone.

I've got no right to do that, even if it was true.

I'm not saying there's a valid reason for being a shit on chat, I'm saying there's a valid reason for their frustration, whether they decide to vocalize it or not. In an MMO raid you kick people who don't know what they're doing and are causing wipes, in Dota you don't have that luxury and people are stuck with their team for the duration of the game, even if that means bashing their head against a wall for 30 minutes. If you just want to mess around you need to seek people with the same mindset because in raiding and Dota people generally play to win.

#35 Posted by twigger89 (277 posts) -

@twigger89 said:

@zeforgotten said:

@chibithor said:

@zeforgotten: Even guides that only cover the basics are pretty long so if someone's completely clueless it's not something you can just quickly type up in the chat. Especially if they've already picked a hero that's hopeless for someone entirely new. Even if you don't want to read anything about Dota ranked isn't the place to learn it

Nobody is talking specifically about ranked, well except you.

But let's combine all of that and just realize that it still doesn't give you the right to act like a total cunt towards another player(Not "you" specifically, just in general)

So hey, at least there's a "report this user for being a total asshat" feature in the game which needs to be used more towards people who just act like a dick because he/she thinks the whole world revolves around him/her.

There is a certain irony of you getting angry at people getting angry at people playing a video game.

I'm not angry, but.. nice try?

If it quacks like a duck, and looks exactly like a duck, it's probably a duck.

So if someone acts like an asshat for no real reason, then yeah, you're an asshat.

Unless you can give me a very valid and thoughtful reason how acting like a total dick towards another person can be justified just because you lost(nothing) in a video game?

@churrific: sure, but it still happens for some dumb reason

I'm not the dota defense force. I'm not excusing people being dicks just because people are bad at the game. That being said, them being dicks to other people doesn't give you the right to swoop down like internet batman and start your little asshole crusade against them. 2 dickheads don't make a right.

#36 Posted by JasonR86 (9577 posts) -

I just came in here to say I hate the word 'noob'.

#37 Edited by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

@theht said:

Remember when games had manuals?

If Dota 2 had a manual, it would eclipse the stack of flight sim manuals on Drew's desk.

#38 Edited by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@chibithor:

But that still makes me wonder why people gets so angry?

It's only a video game in the first place, I could understand if you were a somebody in the community and your team was in like the international Championship and you have that one teammate that just decided that day to be the worst player ever and you end up losing and not winning like a lot of money or something, then yes, you have lost something.

But the people you end up playing with, no matter how big their egos are, are really just nobodies.

Or if you're playing the game and you need to win that match or else your dad is gonna shoot your favorite pet, that would also explain the rage.
Then of course growing up in that sort of environment might be one of the casues for such behavior online, I guess :P

In my world, games are not serious buisness.
Not to the extent that I will call someone racial slurs just for not knowing how to play a game.

Usually in games like this(Smite, HoN, whatever) if someone goes "Sorry, newbie here" the only real thing to answer to that, the way I see it, is "Meh, it's ok, everyone was at one point. You'll get the hang of it". If we lose then I would go take a look out the window and see that hey, the world didn't end so the loss probably wasn't that important to anyone, que up for next game :P

Edit: I meant Smite, not Tribes.

Same devs.

@twigger89: Batman would defend others, I'm defending myself here because it happens to me.
If someone acts like a dick towards me, I'm not gonna just sit there and go "aw that's nice, you have daddy issues, you sweet thing" I'll call him/her a dick.
I will ask them, however how their homelife is like though, because maybe that's where the mental breakdown issues are coming from? I don't know.
I just wanna know what exactly makes them more important in the big picture than me. Aside from the obvious, nothing.

#39 Edited by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@zeforgotten said:

@chibithor:

In my world, games are not serious buisness.

That ain't the Dota world. Combine the serious business attitude, the extremely competitive mindset/community/mechanics of Dota with immaturity commonly found on the internet and you end up with the stuff you're talking about.

And Tribes isn't really in the same ballpark because someone can't single handedly and unknowingly lose the game for an entire team, and you can just quit and join during a match. Dota games are long and you're locked in from start to finish so you have to suck it up or get an abandon (or vent in caps I guess).

For the record with 1000+ hours of Dota 2 I haven't seen racial slurs. (edit: That I can remember anyway. Can't say I remember all the stuff that people say during matches but mostly it's just 'ss')

#40 Posted by TheHT (10786 posts) -


@theht said:

@zeforgotten said:

Also the whole "if you wanna learn how to play you should read up on it" No, no fuck you and your entire existence that's not how gaming works.

Remember when games had manuals?

Oh you mean those books that I only opened up because they had story content in them as well?

Sure, what about them? after reading the story stuff or "about this character"-pages I fired up the game and learned to play it that way.

I'm gonna bet you $50 that nobody ever read a manual and went "Ok, so those are the controls, alright now I'm pro at this" and then just dominated the game the first few times they played it.

Hah, yeah, those things. Believe it or not though, there were some games where reading more than just story stuff in the manual helped a lot. And there are still games where reading up on them helps a lot, whether it's an in-game manual or an online guide.

I wouldn't expect anyone to dominate afterwards, but you sure wouldn't sit around like an idiot not knowing a damn thing. I'm sure you could stumble across what to do, on a long enough timeline, but why do that when you could read something letting you know "hey, this is how the game works, this is what to do, and here are some ways to do them".

If you want to learn how to play, play and maybe have a shitty time. Or read up on it and have a better idea of what your doing, and probably have a better time. You're free to do either of course, but that doesn't make absolutely favoring doing one over the other an absolutely stupid fucking suggestion.

I'm not gonna load up EVE Online on a lark and figure it out, and I'm not gonna read 100-page FAQs on how to play Quake.

#41 Edited by Cameron (595 posts) -

@twigger89: The analogy with Rock Band is helpful, but I think there is more that can be learned from such comparisons. Harmonix made it so that if I'm an expert and I want to play with my friends who don't play often, we can each set our own difficulty. I can totally have fun playing Rock Band with my friends who don't play video games because almost anyone can play on easy. I'm not sure how this could be applied to DOTA, but there has to be a solution that doesn't cut out the vast majority of people who just want to play and have fun.

I still think putting the onus on new players to learn a bunch of stuff before they start playing is bad design. You might expect all players to have certain skills, but I just don't think that's how most people learn to play a new game. They want to jump in and learn as they go, and that is very difficult to do in DOTA. Most people who hear about DOTA from a friend and decide to give it a try are just going to be ruthlessly turned away and that's bad for the game.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just think this is something that's worth talking about because DOTA is really interesting, but also currently very difficult to get into.

@chibithor That analogy is also helpful, but again I think design changes could solve a lot of those frustrations. Maybe add a feature where a team can vote to just take a loss if things start off poorly so they aren't all forced to sit there and play out a hopeless match. Kind of like in Starcraft where if a rush goes badly you can just gg and take the loss without waiting for the other player to build up a force and eventually wipe you out. That wouldn't solve the frustration of losing, but it would help with the frustration of being trapped in a hopeless game for 40 minutes.

#42 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@zeforgotten said:

@chibithor:

In my world, games are not serious buisness.

That ain't the Dota world. Combine the serious business attitude, the extremely competitive mindset/community/mechanics of Dota with immaturity commonly found on the internet and you end up with the stuff you're talking about.

And Tribes isn't really in the same ballpark because someone can't single handedly and unknowingly lose the game for an entire team, and you can just quit and join during a match. Dota games are long and you're locked in from start to finish so you have to suck it up or get an abandon (or vent in caps I guess).

For the record with 1000+ hours of Dota 2 I haven't seen racial slurs.

I meant Smite and not Tribes, thought I was fast enough to edit it, sorry. It's the same developers! it all looks the same interface wise! :(

But hey, 1000+ and no racial slurs? That's pretty good, Dota 2 1 - LoL negative 30. I'm just trying to figure out why it seems that it's ok for people to act that way.

@theht: You could read up on it all you want with EVE but you don't have to.
The second you log in you can just ask for help in one of the thousands and gajillion(that's what it feels like, at times) different chats and within 20 seconds you have at least 10 people willing to help you out right then and there and 40 more willing to help you learn the basics after the tutorial is over/when they're done with their trade route.

People in EVE know it's not easy to learn so they're willing to teach you how to do it.
Sure there are Corps that ask that you have a lot of experience with the game and know what you're doing but you could still ask one of those people to teach you the basics and they would probably say "sure, but you can't join the Corp since we're more serious and don't wanna lose our ships. Wait right there and I'll come help you!"

#43 Posted by TheHT (10786 posts) -


@theht

: You could read up on it all you want with EVE but you don't have to.

The second you log in you can just ask for help in one of the thousands and gajillion(that's what it feels like, at times) different chats and within 20 seconds you have at least 10 people willing to help you out right then and there and 40 more willing to help you learn the basics after the tutorial is over/when they're done with their trade route.

People in EVE know it's not easy to learn so they're willing to teach you how to do it.

Sure there are Corps that ask that you have a lot of experience with the game and know what you're doing but you could still ask one of those people to teach you the basics and they would probably say "sure, but you can't join the Corp since we're more serious and don't wanna lose our ships. Wait right there and I'll come help you!"

Certainly. Asking for help is another way to learn, similar to reading up on something. Both are you appealing to an outside source for guidance.

The issue with decency is separate from the one I focused on, but one that I'm aware is being discussed in this thread, you with others.

The issue I raised was with your suggestion that 'learning to play a game by reading up on it is not how gaming works'. That's crazy talk.

#44 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@theht: I just never learn anything from reading up on stuff.
"So this is how to last hit".txt would be useless to me since I would still be shit at it having never done it before.
Instead I could go into a game, someone says "Man, you're not last hitting" .. and I could go "What's that?! TELL ME! I'm new!(Maybe not, yell at him/her) and that person could then be a human being and go "Well, it's pretty obvious, BUT: just get the last hit on the creeps and you get XP plus money instead of just some lame xp" ..
And hello knowledge I achieved in less time it would take me to read through a FAQ written by some russian guy who hates all the english speaking players telling him to speak english. :P

#45 Edited by Chibithor (574 posts) -

@cameron: I think it's mostly a design decision not to include it in Dota 2. Because comebacks aren't uncommon even from seemingly hopeless situations, Valve don't want people to just give up when things go bad. Still, there are often very clear cut losses that you just have to play out and it can be frustrating.

@zeforgotten: Yeah I've been pretty lucky with that stuff. People are generally pretty good about reporting though so it's not like it's accepted, just kind of rampant. I get the message about people getting sent to low priority often after meeting people I report. At any rate I'd like to think that we're moving into the right direction.

#46 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@chibithor: I'll be optimistic with you hope it's going in the right direction as well.
Could also be that Valve are just generally more intolerant when it comes to stuff like that than say Riot is, which is a good thing.

"Reported for what? Let's see, oh, racism. Well you're gone"

#47 Posted by TheHT (10786 posts) -

@theht:

I just never learn anything from reading up on stuff.

"So this is how to last hit".txt would be useless to me since I would still be shit at it having never done it before.

Instead I could go into a game, someone says "Man, you're not last hitting" .. and I could go "What's that?! TELL ME! I'm new!(Maybe not, yell at him/her) and that person could then be a human being and go "Well, it's pretty obvious, BUT: just get the last hit on the creeps and you get XP plus money instead of just some lame xp" ..

And hello knowledge I achieved in less time it would take me to read through a FAQ written by some russian guy who hates all the english speaking players telling him to speak english. :P

If you read "So this is how to last hit.txt" and all it said was "get the last hit on the creeps and you get XP plus money instead of just some lame xp", what would the difference be? You wouldn't immediately be good at last hitting either way, because that takes practise.

The thing is, in a general guide you won't just have a line on last hitting. You'll also get a line on denying, a line on tower diving, a line on warding, etc. You can read a general guide that's concise and simply written or a deeper guide with details on last-hitting for every hero written by an english-hating russian, if you'd like.

It's all knowledge that you could get from someone else, after all it's other people that write guides, but you're getting it without having to find that someone else who's willing to take the time to help you, and there's nothing wrong with that.

#48 Posted by Blannir (243 posts) -

I don't understand why the people who rage at new players don't just play with people they know. If the thought of losing a match that lasts 30mins+ is too much for you to bear don't play with randoms who may "ruin" your precious game. They have no one to blame but themselves.

#49 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@theht: Never said there was anything wrong with it, but more and more people jump in to games to learn.
That's just how life is. I just don't see the big issue with a person deciding to say "hey, this is how you do it" rather than go "OMG! I'm gonna go kill your mother while I rape your sisters and watch cartoon network and smoke weed you fucking asshole my whole life is built around this game you fucking suck you fucking stupid ass retard omg, what the fuck seriously. You're costing us the game I mean come on".. etc etc.

Oddly enough if you think about it, this self-proclaimed pro is probably the one costing the team the game since he's the player not doing his job wasting his time in chat while I might not be doing well but at least I'm doing better than Mr. "I'm just gonna write in chat for 30 minutes to throw profanities at you, have at ye!"

#50 Posted by Example1013 (4833 posts) -

I hate noobs and can't wait for them all to go away.

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